Help choosing danley sh50/sh64 or larger - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 07-17-2014, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Help choosing DANLEY DSL SH50/SH64 or larger

I've saved my money for the past six months or so and refrained from spending too much on fishing gear (only two custom rods at $900 each for this season and no boat upgrade) way I can upgrade my theater with a major overhaul.

I have a 9 speaker JTR system- 3 triple 8hts and 6 single/slanted8s as surrounds. My subs are 10 21" sealed array along the bottom of the screen ran by two fp10qs and a mix of qsc amps on the remaining two 21s.

Problems

Subs are 145db+ (way too much for triple 8s) but not spread equally throughout the room and they require too much EQ for some nulls and peaks. Remedy (buy some 24"s) and move them all to attic IB with "maybe" a couple 24s on the baffle wall in IB config. 4 24"s may have enough IB volume behind the baffle wall to do two manifolds (one at 1/4 width per side, don't know about height placement though).

LCRs upgrade to synergy horns preferably the SH64s but not sure since there haven't been any blind or other comparisons between these and the smaller SH50s. The larger bass drivers in the 64s draw my attention but other characteristics raise questions as well.

How will the 4-5" mids with 1"CD in the SH50s compare to 4-4" mids and 1.4"CD to one another? I'm after more low frequency bass from the LCRs but also even more importantly after more mid bass too. The LFE channel can always help with the lower frequencies but not really with the mid bass. I've heard some say that the 1.4"CD isn't as "preferred" for home use as the 1"CD but there haven't really been any discussions about the difference in the 4" and 5" drivers.

More than one person has said I'd be more than happy with the smaller SH50 but all the 15" drivers in the 64s are just telling me "you will miss out on all this displacement!"

Any opinions/suggestions? Room is 35x18 shrunk down to 31ishx18 after the baffle wall. Will I feel the need to upgrade the surrounds because of timbre differences? Atmos will be added as well and was planning on single/slanted 8s if will work with new LCRs.

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post #2 of 21 Old 07-18-2014, 12:53 PM
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just chiming in that your system sounds spectacular as is. Im sure many wished they could accumulate what you currently have. Good luck with your search.
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post #3 of 21 Old 07-18-2014, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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just chiming in that your system sounds spectacular as is. Im sure many wished they could accumulate what you currently have. Good luck with your search.

Thank you! And, I can't express how happy I was when I first upgraded to the JTRs from Klipsch RF82s in bar room and Paradigm studio 100s in previous theater. Most would prefer the studio 100s over the lesser msrp RF82s but there was just something about the Klipsch towers that I really liked and they are still in my bar to today with a RC64 II center and monoprice inwall 8" speakers for surround duty accompanied by two original cherry mfw 15s lol. I'm not too fond of the RC64 II for the money and actually would give it negative reviews if I did a review of it but it was what I "thought" would best match the towers. Many think my bar room is my theater and are blown away by it until they realize the "real" sound experience is actually in the next room down the hall.

When I purchased the JTR 888s I thought I was stepping up into the big leagues as far as sound and loudness. I'd never researched pro audio gear nor heard it in a home. One of my Xbox buddies "mrlittlejeans" actually turned me onto home theater with projectors and basically sold me on the JVC RS1x, mfw15s, and a carada BW 110" screen over Xbox chat while playing call of duty. He had the RS1 and some mfw15s and told me about this addictive site called AVS forums. It wasn't long after I registered that I ordered the RS1x and carada screen. Then as soon as I assembled the frame and measured to see if could fit the mfws they were emmediately ordered too. My life of home theater with large flat panels was a thing of the past instantly and my (then) wife thought I was nuts for ordering a custom rug to fit the hardwood within 2" of the baseboards all around and blacking out the windows with vinyl. I was happy with my RF82s, paradigm bookshelf surrounds, paradigm center, and mfw 15s up front with a paradigm cube directly behind listening position (note no timbre match at all). Actually I thought it was the best/baddest theater room ever and so did many of my friends.

My online buddy mrlittlejeans had mentioned how he had some small JTR single or slanted 8s and how awesome they were but I just took it like a grain of salt and never researched it again until I was planning my new theater with my "new" wife. Once I saw how large the JTR thread was and how many people praised their performance I immediately remembered how all of mrlittlejeans' other recommendations literally blew my mind so I started asking questions in the JTR thread about what I needed etc... This is where "I" messed up! I asked all the wrong questions and ordered the 888s instead of the triple 12s based on the "wrong" questions I'd asked.

But, when I got the 888s in the mail and hooked them up in my office room to my first pro amp (qsc 3602) I was absolutely amazed at how loud and detailed they were at every volume level. They sounded great in my little room with 2mfw15s and 2 Mal 21s but once they were moved into the theater with more subs than most bands I quickly realized I was missing out on what the 12s would have added to the upper end of the bass/mid bass region. It was/is still way beyond what I thought was achievable in a home theater after experienced what the mfw15/Klipsch setup was capable of doing.

Well my intro/venture into home theater story has one more chapter left to add to that long ramble and hope it blows my mind just as much as the previous ones did.

So the question remains-will SH50s be enough (maybe even with some added MBMs) or would they still leave me with that last wow factor of upgrading to SH64s or larger. I want extreme mid bass slam and eliminate the house curve so many enjoy. I like the bass hot but would like the ability to have the mid bass just as hot, if that makes any sense.

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post #4 of 21 Old 07-25-2014, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Bump

Someone can surely comment on the difference in the mid bass region of these speakers. They are totally different than one another in size. It seems like the larger drivers (5") in the SH50s would give greater mid bass over the (4") drivers in the SH64s, but just by looking at the graphs it appears that the SH64s have quite an edge here.

I know most like the bass hot and I do as well but I've never had the ability to extend that 80hz(ish) range (where the curve extends upwards down until below 20hz) and have that curve start somewhere around 150hz or so (guessing here). I know I don't like a flat response where the subs and LCRs meet (are crossed) and know I liked the ability to use higher filters in car audio for the midrange that I'm looking to be able to achieve in the HT. Heck, I may not even like the sound this sort of curve would produce but I "think" I would for sure. It may end up being a slightly different curve than what I'm imagining with the 150hz starting point but I can imagine that at minimum a bump in the 120hz range on down would really have the sound I'm chasing for sure. I just know I don't like the gap between my subs and LCRs for sure and anything that gives me the option to slide my FR to the right I'll be moving in the correct direction. It may be that 120hz is the spot, 150hz, 200hz, etc... I just don't know
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post #5 of 21 Old 07-31-2014, 11:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Ivan? Any other experienced DSL guru?
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post #6 of 21 Old 08-01-2014, 04:35 AM
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fwiw, just curious what about the room itself do you have bass traps / acoustical treatments

i'm so laid back,i'm laid out
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post #7 of 21 Old 08-01-2014, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes there is the risers' traps and will be another set in the rear corners once atmos clarifies if I can put widths where I have the cable already ran. The baffle wall is treated and rear chamber is treated to Dennis E specs. Still need other treatments but will come in time when fabric goes up.
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post #8 of 21 Old 08-03-2014, 06:23 PM
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Sorry I missed this thread-but I have been really busy lately.

For a HT I would choose the Sh50s (or SH60s if you need a wider pattern) any day over the SH64s.

While the SH64s will get much louder-this additional output is not needed in a home situation-even a loud one.

The top end of the SH50/60 is much smoother and extends higher.

The low end of the SH50/60 is also lower than the Sh64-even though the Sh64 has 4x15" woofers vs the 2x12" in the 50/60.

The low end is a bit 'compromised" in the 64-due to the cabinet volume being lower than what is needed for 4x15" woofers. The reason we did this was figuring that with the output capability of the Sh64 you would be using subs anyway. So packing high output into a small cabinet was more important than extending the low freq.

The Sh64 is a fine sounding box-but not as "refined" as the Sh50/60.

The 12" woofers in the Sh50/60 are very strong (700 watts continuous each driver), so they can get very loud.

You will find that with many Danley products-driver size is not something that should be considered.

For example our subs that go the lowest use 8" and 12" drivers. Not 18 or 21" as most people would consider.

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post #9 of 21 Old 08-03-2014, 11:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post
Sorry I missed this thread-but I have been really busy lately.

For a HT I would choose the Sh50s (or SH60s if you need a wider pattern) any day over the SH64s.

While the SH64s will get much louder-this additional output is not needed in a home situation-even a loud one.

The top end of the SH50/60 is much smoother and extends higher.

The low end of the SH50/60 is also lower than the Sh64-even though the Sh64 has 4x15" woofers vs the 2x12" in the 50/60.

The low end is a bit 'compromised" in the 64-due to the cabinet volume being lower than what is needed for 4x15" woofers. The reason we did this was figuring that with the output capability of the Sh64 you would be using subs anyway. So packing high output into a small cabinet was more important than extending the low freq.

The Sh64 is a fine sounding box-but not as "refined" as the Sh50/60.

The 12" woofers in the Sh50/60 are very strong (700 watts continuous each driver), so they can get very loud.

You will find that with many Danley products-driver size is not something that should be considered.

For example our subs that go the lowest use 8" and 12" drivers. Not 18 or 21" as most people would consider.
Thanks Ivan but what about my "main" concerns with the 70-150+hz range. I don't "know" that I want my house curve to extend from 150-170hz on down with a very gradual rise but "think" that is what I'm chasing. As many know around here, I have very bad ears from car audio days. I've lost about 30-40% hearing in right ear and about 20-30% in my left ear (many hours logged at over 150dbs cruising country roads, young and dumb).

I still like to listen at what most would consider extreme levels for very brief periods at a time, like a couple of songs in a row.

How would someone that can't hear above 15.5khz relate the difference between the sh64 and the 50/60 if they could extend the lower/mid bass like the 64 seems capable of doing? I "literally want to be able to play music at 6-8dbs lower from the mid bass region on down of my subs which are capable of atleast 145db at 40hz. Now if the sh64 will just flat out not sound as good from 60hz-15.5khz then maybe my goals are just too far fetched?

Just by looking at the graphs, it seems like the 4-4" drivers in the 64s have greater mid bass output and is "pronounced" in that region compared to the 4-5" drivers in the 50/60s. Is that a correct assumption on my part from your graphs?

I know I'll need to pm you or email you for correct pattern control before making any type of decision but was just wanting to know what price range I honestly need to be expecting to have to pay, and I know that's not your dept but Im aware of the price differences ;-) just figured some of this could be helpful to others as well.
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post #10 of 21 Old 08-04-2014, 10:11 PM
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I Just had the opportunity to listen to SH50's in my room in a comparison with my existing SM60F's. It was a very basic comparo without measurements, level matching, or EQ, so I'm not going to bother with significant comments other than to say that there is a definite difference IMO between these speakers and likely between them and the SH64. But I have not heard the SH64's, so I have no contribution to make there.

It's hard for me to figure out by your posts if you have any concern for overall SQ, in the qualitative or subjective sense of the term, since your posts are very laser focused on the midbass aspects. So I can only recommend reading Ivan's comments closely regarding the SQ of the SH64 for HT or home music applications. I would be very hesitant to go that route without first comparing directly with other DSL boxes.

I feel for your speaker journey as I am on one myself.

Good luck!
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post #11 of 21 Old 08-04-2014, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I Just had the opportunity to listen to SH50's in my room in a comparison with my existing SM60F's. It was a very basic comparo without measurements, level matching, or EQ, so I'm not going to bother with significant comments other than to say that there is a definite difference IMO between these speakers and likely between them and the SH64. But I have not heard the SH64's, so I have no contribution to make there.

It's hard for me to figure out by your posts if you have any concern for overall SQ, in the qualitative or subjective sense of the term, since your posts are very laser focused on the midbass aspects. So I can only recommend reading Ivan's comments closely regarding the SQ of the SH64 for HT or home music applications. I would be very hesitant to go that route without first comparing directly with other DSL boxes.

I feel for your speaker journey as I am on one myself.

Good luck!
I would chime in to say that boosting 120 hz and higher area will make vocal and certain thing just sound bad . I boosted that area and it was not what I was chasing what I was chasing was the 50 60 hz area that is the thump in the chest music slam your probably looking for I own sm60f if I had the room and money I would own sh50 my other comment would be that if you where in car audio you know how loud 130 spl is and there is no way you could take 130 spl in a house for 2 songs if you did you would not have to worry about bad hearing anymore lol......
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post #12 of 21 Old 08-05-2014, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I Just had the opportunity to listen to SH50's in my room in a comparison with my existing SM60F's. It was a very basic comparo without measurements, level matching, or EQ, so I'm not going to bother with significant comments other than to say that there is a definite difference IMO between these speakers and likely between them and the SH64. But I have not heard the SH64's, so I have no contribution to make there.

It's hard for me to figure out by your posts if you have any concern for overall SQ, in the qualitative or subjective sense of the term, since your posts are very laser focused on the midbass aspects. So I can only recommend reading Ivan's comments closely regarding the SQ of the SH64 for HT or home music applications. I would be very hesitant to go that route without first comparing directly with other DSL boxes.

I feel for your speaker journey as I am on one myself.

Good luck!
Yeah. I'm hating his truthful comments in a sense. I absolutely want great sound quality. I'd feel pretty stupid if my novice ears could even tell that the sound quality was lacking after purchasing $10-15-25k worth of speakers. I'm just not worried about the extreme high end 18-22khz. There just arent very many cabinets that can produce 135dbs in the 100-150hz range is why I empasize that quality. But like you said read his comments closely.

He has recommended the SH96HO but I'm worried that the cabinets are just flat out too large to take advantage of the pattern control.

I'm stuck at this point until figure out if another cabinet will fit properly. I'm chasing the output of the 64, 96, 96ho, and sh25 possibly, but need them to fit in my room.

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post #13 of 21 Old 08-05-2014, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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I would chime in to say that boosting 120 hz and higher area will make vocal and certain thing just sound bad . I boosted that area and it was not what I was chasing what I was chasing was the 50 60 hz area that is the thump in the chest music slam your probably looking for I own sm60f if I had the room and money I would own sh50 my other comment would be that if you where in car audio you know how loud 130 spl is and there is no way you could take 130 spl in a house for 2 songs if you did you would not have to worry about bad hearing anymore lol......
You could be totally correct about shifting the curve to the right but if I don't like it the cabinets will still close the gap I have between my mains and subs (currently 20+dbs). If I don't like it then I will have the ability to cross the subs at any point I choose though. That's my problem now. I keep the subs crossed at 80hz and they just overpower the 888s. I am worried about boosting the vocals too much and will just have to set the minidsps at the best location that suits my ears.

And btw I listen at 130dbs 7hz-80hz all the time and know as the FR creeps higher it will be a completely different ear piercing type of loudness but having experienced 120hz at well north of 145dbs in many vehicles I'm certain that running a general house curve of +10dbs if all else fails will satisfy my needs. The DSL cabinets ability to play within 8-10dbs of my subs is the main reason I'm interested in the synergy speakers.

The 888s and single/slanted 8s in my theater are by far the best speakers I've ever heard in a home theater so I'm quite the novice in terms of being able to differentiate high end speakers in our hts. But having said that, I've read hundreds of posts from all the get togethers and fell like its all personal tastes and very minimal differences when comparing very high end speakers. I can't hear above 15.5khz or so and am glad that is the case in a sense because when I read some reviews these higher frequencies make or break some people's purchase decision. There haven't been many situations like that since most of us older people deffinately can't hear the 20khz stuff but there are instances.
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post #14 of 21 Old 08-05-2014, 11:09 AM
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You could be totally correct about shifting the curve to the right but if I don't like it the cabinets will still close the gap I have between my mains and subs (currently 20+dbs). If I don't like it then I will have the ability to cross the subs at any point I choose though. That's my problem now. I keep the subs crossed at 80hz and they just overpower the 888s. I am worried about boosting the vocals too much and will just have to set the minidsps at the best location that suits my ears.

And btw I listen at 130dbs 7hz-80hz all the time and know as the FR creeps higher it will be a completely different ear piercing type of loudness but having experienced 120hz at well north of 145dbs in many vehicles I'm certain that running a general house curve of +10dbs if all else fails will satisfy my needs. The DSL cabinets ability to play within 8-10dbs of my subs is the main reason I'm interested in the synergy speakers.

The 888s and single/slanted 8s in my theater are by far the best speakers I've ever heard in a home theater so I'm quite the novice in terms of being able to differentiate high end speakers in our hts. But having said that, I've read hundreds of posts from all the get togethers and fell like its all personal tastes and very minimal differences when comparing very high end speakers. I can't hear above 15.5khz or so and am glad that is the case in a sense because when I read some reviews these higher frequencies make or break some people's purchase decision. There haven't been many situations like that since most of us older people deffinately can't hear the 20khz stuff but there are instances.
I agree totally 888 have no mid what so ever ....
have you thought about the yorkville u215 for the front speakers ? that would give you 6 15 inch woofers that are well known for there punch in the region your looking for . at 130 dbl
I am aware of running the bass hot as I do the same thing and it's pretty safe on hearing lol in it's own way ....
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post #15 of 21 Old 08-05-2014, 11:18 AM
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you should consider the danleys period because they really shine in the mid region and stay coherent even at full volume . they aren't even close to the jtr. t8 the T8 need room eq just to be acceptable . the danley outshine them in every way . the yorkville u215 would be a much cheaper route .but if you are truly concerned you need so much I would love to see you buy the big danley and put them in your house .
I love it
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post #16 of 21 Old 08-05-2014, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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you should consider the danleys period because they really shine in the mid region and stay coherent even at full volume . they aren't even close to the jtr. t8 the T8 need room eq just to be acceptable . the danley outshine them in every way . the yorkville u215 would be a much cheaper route .but if you are truly concerned you need so much I would love to see you buy the big danley and put them in your house .
I love it
That's just it, I don't "know" if they would work in my room. The SH96HO is 45" wide and my room is 18' wide with 13' wide screen so I "assume" they would all have to go behind the screen way the frame isn't in front of them if I placed the L and R out against the wall. I sent Ivan another pm about their placement and inquired about the SH25 coupled with bass cabinets since it seems like the SH64 (which would fit flanked against the walls) is not optimal for a HT.

I wish there was another model that used the 1" HF driver that extended down to 60hz or below that is capable of 135+db. It just seems like the only model is the sh96ho when considering its being placed in a ht.
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post #17 of 21 Old 08-05-2014, 11:55 AM
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I get your pain there is no where to audition anything anymore
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post #18 of 21 Old 08-05-2014, 12:17 PM
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audiovideoholic,


Just curious, are you using REW or another measuring system?
Also, what eq are you using...XT32 or MiniDSP etc.
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post #19 of 21 Old 08-05-2014, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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audiovideoholic,


Just curious, are you using REW or another measuring system?
Also, what eq are you using...XT32 or MiniDSP etc.
Started with REW and switched to omnimic.

Yeah I use minidsp. I'm currently running a 10x10hd for subs and LCRs.
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OK then, sounds like you got it all covered.


I had a pair of SH-50's for awhile. Personally I don't think you will have a problem with midbass. I do agree if you boost that area (70-150) it can affect especially male voices. But I am sure you are aware of that.


I also agree that when you get to a certain level there is not much difference in many of these speakers. If you eq them the same they will sound more the alike than different. I have had 5 different "styles" of speakers, not too expensive ribbons, DNA360 with SEOS 12, Woofer-coax-woofer etc. and I don't think I could have differentiated between them in a blind test. They were all active and eq'ed before I even listened to them.

Anyway this probably isn't helping you much so I will stop here. .
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post #21 of 21 Old 08-05-2014, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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OK then, sounds like you got it all covered.


I had a pair of SH-50's for awhile. Personally I don't think you will have a problem with midbass. I do agree if you boost that area (70-150) it can affect especially male voices. But I am sure you are aware of that.


I also agree that when you get to a certain level there is not much difference in many of these speakers. If you eq them the same they will sound more the alike than different. I have had 5 different "styles" of speakers, not too expensive ribbons, DNA360 with SEOS 12, Woofer-coax-woofer etc. and I don't think I could have differentiated between them in a blind test. They were all active and eq'ed before I even listened to them.

Anyway this probably isn't helping you much so I will stop here. .
Lol yea every little bit helps.

And as far as male vocals and mid bass sharing the same FR, yea I'm betting I'll end up a lot closer to 100hz than 150hz. This eq setting will only be for music only which will also hurt my wants since mainly listen to songs with male dominate vocals.
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