Vancouver Summertime GTG Results - Page 7 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 65Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #181 of 308 Old 07-29-2014, 10:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chalugadp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 4,922
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 840 Post(s)
Liked: 988
So if I host a gtg in January we have my 1099, your tux super build, and ........... . actually the other two I'd love to hear are the statements , and a fourth mystery speaker
chalugadp is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #182 of 308 Old 07-29-2014, 11:04 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 5,736
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 670 Post(s)
Liked: 881
Well, I could also bring the 228HT's if I still have them.
jbrown15 is online now  
post #183 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 04:16 AM
Advanced Member
 
Jeff in Canada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 522
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
So if I host a gtg in January we have my 1099, your tux super build, and ........... . actually the other two I'd love to hear are the statements , and a fourth mystery speaker
Was / will your GTG be a blind test? I put my belief in those. The mind is an interesting thing and it believes what it wants to believe. It requires a lot more work but to be very straight speaking, a non blind test especially one with someone involved that has a vested interest is not reliable. I'm not saying that it was rigged or that people are not being honest about what they feel they heard or what their preference was. Statistically, the testing was very flawed.

If you want a real test, it needs to be blind and you need to run it twice with the same people and the order needs to be varied / random. With the nature of speakers you also need to have people moving around to different locations to listen.

Other GTG's I've seen were some blind and some not. Those not for the most part were without stakeholders present, though I think Seaton and another company were present which would put those products in the same boat, but from what I read they understand testing and were pretty good about balancing their input prior to testing. Plus I think the Seaton one was in the blind GTG.

Again to be overly clear. I'm not saying people consciously did anything wrong, but I think the test was flawed and biased. You can argue against this but from someone who does testing as part of my area of expertise, I'm telling you it was flawed. You can save your retorts. I'm sure someone will say, everyone like the JTR and then said xyz about abc speaker. Anyone who said anything bad about a JTR speaker in a non blind test on this forum would be dismissed and that is in the subconscious of everyone reading this.

It's great that people are buying the 1099 (a little bit of the point eh?) and I'm sure they will love them. But look at the front page of AVS. Alot of people thought they could tell the difference between High Res audio and non and I'm sure when they submitted their opinions they thought they could. The evidence says they could not.

Equipment: Denon AVR-4520, Fusion Tempest (LCR), Fusion Alchemy (4xSurrounds+Wides+Heights),15" Dayton Ultimax X 4, SMX 2.35:1 Screen

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Jeff in Canada is offline  
post #184 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 05:38 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 22,873
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 166 Post(s)
Liked: 834
You should have someone bring a few bass horns (or build one) to compare to Marty. I'd like to see a full Marty (or2) vs a Ghorn.

Luke had a GTG with some the following week after you guys but really no other subs to compare. Then again I wouldn't want to send my child in to fight two ghorns and two Ohorns either. That amount of bass as one of the attendees put it is "unethical".

But I'm mostly interested in hearing a bunch of different opinions comparing horn bass to ported bass.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is offline  
post #185 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 05:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
DavidK442's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,148
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff in Canada View Post
It's great that people are buying the 1099 (a little bit of the point eh?)
Not at all.

.
DavidK442 is online now  
post #186 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 05:57 AM
Advanced Member
 
Bassment's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 830
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 367 Post(s)
Liked: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff in Canada View Post
Was / will your GTG be a blind test? I put my belief in those. The mind is an interesting thing and it believes what it wants to believe. It requires a lot more work but to be very straight speaking, a non blind test especially one with someone involved that has a vested interest is not reliable. I'm not saying that it was rigged or that people are not being honest about what they feel they heard or what their preference was. Statistically, the testing was very flawed.

If you want a real test, it needs to be blind and you need to run it twice with the same people and the order needs to be varied / random. With the nature of speakers you also need to have people moving around to different locations to listen.

Other GTG's I've seen were some blind and some not. Those not for the most part were without stakeholders present, though I think Seaton and another company were present which would put those products in the same boat, but from what I read they understand testing and were pretty good about balancing their input prior to testing. Plus I think the Seaton one was in the blind GTG.

Again to be overly clear. I'm not saying people consciously did anything wrong, but I think the test was flawed and biased. You can argue against this but from someone who does testing as part of my area of expertise, I'm telling you it was flawed. You can save your retorts. I'm sure someone will say, everyone like the JTR and then said xyz about abc speaker. Anyone who said anything bad about a JTR speaker in a non blind test on this forum would be dismissed and that is in the subconscious of everyone reading this.

It's great that people are buying the 1099 (a little bit of the point eh?) and I'm sure they will love them. But look at the front page of AVS. Alot of people thought they could tell the difference between High Res audio and non and I'm sure when they submitted their opinions they thought they could. The evidence says they could not.
I don't think anyone is saying that non-blind testing is the best way to do it, or even a good way. Blind testing is obviously better, but it's way more work and probably way less enjoyable, at least for the length of time they had each speaker going. GTG's are mostly fun get-togethers, not lab experiments. I would be really interested in a blind test GTG though, where there's a $50.00 speaker, $100.00 speaker, $300.00 speaker, $1000.00 speaker, $10,000.00 speaker and a $100,000.00 speaker. Would be really cool.

Unless he updated it after I looked yesterday, the high res audio test results to me looked like quite a few people could tell the high-res audio from the normal files, there was a few people that got every one right.
chalugadp likes this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Bassment is offline  
post #187 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 06:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Fatshaft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 1,298
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 106 Post(s)
Liked: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff in Canada View Post
Was / will your GTG be a blind test? I put my belief in those. The mind is an interesting thing and it believes what it wants to believe. It requires a lot more work but to be very straight speaking, a non blind test especially one with someone involved that has a vested interest is not reliable. I'm not saying that it was rigged or that people are not being honest about what they feel they heard or what their preference was. Statistically, the testing was very flawed.

If you want a real test, it needs to be blind and you need to run it twice with the same people and the order needs to be varied / random. With the nature of speakers you also need to have people moving around to different locations to listen.

Other GTG's I've seen were some blind and some not. Those not for the most part were without stakeholders present, though I think Seaton and another company were present which would put those products in the same boat, but from what I read they understand testing and were pretty good about balancing their input prior to testing. Plus I think the Seaton one was in the blind GTG.

Again to be overly clear. I'm not saying people consciously did anything wrong, but I think the test was flawed and biased. You can argue against this but from someone who does testing as part of my area of expertise, I'm telling you it was flawed. You can save your retorts. I'm sure someone will say, everyone like the JTR and then said xyz about abc speaker. Anyone who said anything bad about a JTR speaker in a non blind test on this forum would be dismissed and that is in the subconscious of everyone reading this.

It's great that people are buying the 1099 (a little bit of the point eh?) and I'm sure they will love them. But look at the front page of AVS. Alot of people thought they could tell the difference between High Res audio and non and I'm sure when they submitted their opinions they thought they could. The evidence says they could not.
Why don't YOU host a GTG???
I'd love to read your thread after and see how many will criticize YOUR GTG!

Ever thought that this is not a professional scientific GTG. just a bunch of Joe's GTG and having fun?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Equipment Speakers:
3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
Fatshaft is online now  
post #188 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 06:57 AM
Advanced Member
 
DotJun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 917
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
They were the best ported subs I've ever heard as well.



That said, I think they needed to be boosted up in the 50 to 80hz range.



Sealed subs start rolling off around 40hz, and even with ULF boost it is still down several db's compared to the 50 to 80hz, making it naturally hot up top.



Maybe that's why everyone like the selead Funk subs, and me my sealed LMS's, by comparison.



But if you boosted up the ported's it would probably be just as impactful (I think?).

That's the problem with flat bass, it sounds weak, even thought it measures flat.

That's why I boost 20-40db hot.



I am always surprised how much treble I can withstand when I have the bass really hot.


How do you even go about boosting that much? My minidsp would blow up just looking at that chart
DotJun is offline  
post #189 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 07:02 AM
Advanced Member
 
DotJun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 917
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff in Canada View Post
Was / will your GTG be a blind test? I put my belief in those. The mind is an interesting thing and it believes what it wants to believe. It requires a lot more work but to be very straight speaking, a non blind test especially one with someone involved that has a vested interest is not reliable. I'm not saying that it was rigged or that people are not being honest about what they feel they heard or what their preference was. Statistically, the testing was very flawed.



If you want a real test, it needs to be blind and you need to run it twice with the same people and the order needs to be varied / random. With the nature of speakers you also need to have people moving around to different locations to listen.



Other GTG's I've seen were some blind and some not. Those not for the most part were without stakeholders present, though I think Seaton and another company were present which would put those products in the same boat, but from what I read they understand testing and were pretty good about balancing their input prior to testing. Plus I think the Seaton one was in the blind GTG.



Again to be overly clear. I'm not saying people consciously did anything wrong, but I think the test was flawed and biased. You can argue against this but from someone who does testing as part of my area of expertise, I'm telling you it was flawed. You can save your retorts. I'm sure someone will say, everyone like the JTR and then said xyz about abc speaker. Anyone who said anything bad about a JTR speaker in a non blind test on this forum would be dismissed and that is in the subconscious of everyone reading this.



It's great that people are buying the 1099 (a little bit of the point eh?) and I'm sure they will love them. But look at the front page of AVS. Alot of people thought they could tell the difference between High Res audio and non and I'm sure when they submitted their opinions they thought they could. The evidence says they could not.

The problem with blind test for speakers is the logistics. I suppose if you had a round room that could rotate so that every speaker is in the same location in relation to each other it would work.

Oh wait, just setup speakers on each floor right outside of the elevator doors and go up and down the building to hear a diff set
DotJun is offline  
post #190 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 07:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,696
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 317 Post(s)
Liked: 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff in Canada View Post
Was / will your GTG be a blind test? I put my belief in those. The mind is an interesting thing and it believes what it wants to believe. It requires a lot more work but to be very straight speaking, a non blind test especially one with someone involved that has a vested interest is not reliable. I'm not saying that it was rigged or that people are not being honest about what they feel they heard or what their preference was. Statistically, the testing was very flawed.

If you want a real test, it needs to be blind and you need to run it twice with the same people and the order needs to be varied / random. With the nature of speakers you also need to have people moving around to different locations to listen.

Other GTG's I've seen were some blind and some not. Those not for the most part were without stakeholders present, though I think Seaton and another company were present which would put those products in the same boat, but from what I read they understand testing and were pretty good about balancing their input prior to testing. Plus I think the Seaton one was in the blind GTG.

Again to be overly clear. I'm not saying people consciously did anything wrong, but I think the test was flawed and biased. You can argue against this but from someone who does testing as part of my area of expertise, I'm telling you it was flawed. You can save your retorts. I'm sure someone will say, everyone like the JTR and then said xyz about abc speaker. Anyone who said anything bad about a JTR speaker in a non blind test on this forum would be dismissed and that is in the subconscious of everyone reading this.

It's great that people are buying the 1099 (a little bit of the point eh?) and I'm sure they will love them. But look at the front page of AVS. Alot of people thought they could tell the difference between High Res audio and non and I'm sure when they submitted their opinions they thought they could. The evidence says they could not.
Enlighten me, who had a vested interest? Nathan Funk, but he didn't leave a review (I respect that).

BTW, I have participated in a blind speaker building competition, it was in New York, I wasn't even there, and I won.

And, no, selling the 1099 was not the point of the GTG.

This post really reveals how mistaken you are and puts your other posts into perspective. I know you like your tempests. I don't think you understand how far out of my way I went to make sure they were ok during the morning session. I have the emails with Bagby if you don't believe me.

Please, we were just having a good time. Nothing all that surprising about the results. Choose to ignore them if you'd like.
tuxedocivic is offline  
post #191 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 07:32 AM
Advanced Member
 
Jeff in Canada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 522
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post
Why don't YOU host a GTG???
I'd love to read your thread after and see how many will criticize YOUR GTG!

Ever thought that this is not a professional scientific GTG. just a bunch of Joe's GTG and having fun?
I have clearly stated that when my theater is complete, that I will host one. Feel free to roll your eyes, at my comments because I have at the comments people are making.

Equipment: Denon AVR-4520, Fusion Tempest (LCR), Fusion Alchemy (4xSurrounds+Wides+Heights),15" Dayton Ultimax X 4, SMX 2.35:1 Screen

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Jeff in Canada is offline  
post #192 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 07:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Fatshaft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 1,298
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 106 Post(s)
Liked: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff in Canada View Post
I have clearly stated that when my theater is complete, that I will host one. Feel free to roll your eyes, at my comments because I have at the comments people are making.
You clearly have an agenda here...I don't

In case you don't get it...let people have fun and let them state their opinion just like you have numerous times!

Try to go to threads where people like what you like and have fun for a change
Embrace life and the good things...half full


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Equipment Speakers:
3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
Fatshaft is online now  
post #193 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 07:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Reefdvr27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Riomaggiore, Italy
Posts: 2,639
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 458 Post(s)
Liked: 397
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff in Canada View Post
Was / will your GTG be a blind test? I put my belief in those. The mind is an interesting thing and it believes what it wants to believe. It requires a lot more work but to be very straight speaking, a non blind test especially one with someone involved that has a vested interest is not reliable. I'm not saying that it was rigged or that people are not being honest about what they feel they heard or what their preference was. Statistically, the testing was very flawed.

If you want a real test, it needs to be blind and you need to run it twice with the same people and the order needs to be varied / random. With the nature of speakers you also need to have people moving around to different locations to listen.

Other GTG's I've seen were some blind and some not. Those not for the most part were without stakeholders present, though I think Seaton and another company were present which would put those products in the same boat, but from what I read they understand testing and were pretty good about balancing their input prior to testing. Plus I think the Seaton one was in the blind GTG.

Again to be overly clear. I'm not saying people consciously did anything wrong, but I think the test was flawed and biased. You can argue against this but from someone who does testing as part of my area of expertise, I'm telling you it was flawed. You can save your retorts. I'm sure someone will say, everyone like the JTR and then said xyz about abc speaker. Anyone who said anything bad about a JTR speaker in a non blind test on this forum would be dismissed and that is in the subconscious of everyone reading this.

It's great that people are buying the 1099 (a little bit of the point eh?) and I'm sure they will love them. But look at the front page of AVS. Alot of people thought they could tell the difference between High Res audio and non and I'm sure when they submitted their opinions they thought they could. The evidence says they could not.
What are you saying man? It appears to me that these guys all live close to each other and GTG for the day to listen to some audio. No where did this say shoot out. Those other GTG's you speak of I was there and there really was no real special balancing. They were run full range or crossed with subs with no EQ and level matched. Basically just the normal basic settings. I do recall that Jeff and Mark overlooked the sine wave, but again, just basic stuff. Looks like a bunch of guys had a good time and all seem to agree that the 1099 sounded good.

My System

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


My dedicated theater room build. 

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Reefdvr27; 07-30-2014 at 08:03 AM.
Reefdvr27 is online now  
post #194 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 07:50 AM
Advanced Member
 
Jeff in Canada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 522
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Enlighten me, who had a vested interest? Nathan Funk, but he didn't leave a review (I respect that).

BTW, I have participated in a blind speaker building competition, it was in New York, I wasn't even there, and I won.

And, no, selling the 1099 was not the point of the GTG.

This post really reveals how mistaken you are and puts your other posts into perspective. I know you like your tempests. I don't think you understand how far out of my way I went to make sure they were ok during the morning session. I have the emails with Bagby if you don't believe me.

Please, we were just having a good time. Nothing all that surprising about the results. Choose to ignore them if you'd like.
I know that you have e-mails with Bagby when he was on vacation. I like my Tempests but I personally don't know how they compare with other speakers. Please read my post again and read only the words written not the ones made up in ones head or ones someone assumes I'm stating.

My point again is that the testing method was flawed. Again, I state, I don't think anyone did anything consciously, but there is a built in bias in terms of how it was undertaken. There is a bias towards JTR, there is a bias toward a speaker designed by a good designer who is there and able to talk very knowledgeably about speakers / design to people who are there. It biases the listener.

Again, read my post. A few times I state that I don't believe anyone did anything on purpose or with ill intent.

Now I see the "hey it was just people having a good time event" comments. That seems different than the clear assertions earlier in the thread.

Equipment: Denon AVR-4520, Fusion Tempest (LCR), Fusion Alchemy (4xSurrounds+Wides+Heights),15" Dayton Ultimax X 4, SMX 2.35:1 Screen

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Jeff in Canada is offline  
post #195 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 07:54 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: A beautiful view of a lake
Posts: 7,608
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 300 Post(s)
Liked: 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
I was thinking of something like using these for mids

The ae tdm6 with 15" seos. Then a pair of 12" on top/bottom. What do you think Ryan ? The price would zoom up to 900$ each but be a killer.
I bet the parts alone cost $900 for the speaker you just described.

Mike Garrett, AV Science Sales Call Me: 585-671-2968
Email Me:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Brands we sell: 
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
 
Call for B-stock projectors
Stewart, Seymour, SE, SI, Falcon & many more.
RBH, Martin Logan, Triad, Atlantic Technology, MK Sound, BG Radia, SVS & Def Tech.
AV Science Sales 5 is offline  
post #196 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 08:01 AM
Advanced Member
 
Jeff in Canada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 522
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post
You clearly have an agenda here...I don't

In case you don't get it...let people have fun and let them state their opinion just like you have numerous times!

Try to go to threads where people like what you like and have fun for a change
Embrace life and the good things...half full
What would be my agenda? I have Tempest speakers? I'm not married to them. Just like I wasn't married to my Paradigm's which I also really enjoyed but replaced.

As I clearly stated, and what can be clearly demonstrated on the front page of AVS.....people have subconscious bias. They hear and believe something that may or may not be accurate. I don't know which speakers are better.....but then again I don't profess to know.

I don't doubt that the 1099's are excellent speakers. What seems to be the case here though, is that if you question the testing method or don't speak only piety about a speaker or results drawn from it, that I or others are trying to cut someone or something down.

Again, I urge you to read what I actually wrote.

Equipment: Denon AVR-4520, Fusion Tempest (LCR), Fusion Alchemy (4xSurrounds+Wides+Heights),15" Dayton Ultimax X 4, SMX 2.35:1 Screen

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Jeff in Canada is offline  
post #197 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 08:02 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 22,873
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 166 Post(s)
Liked: 834
The room matters too. Different room different results. The FUSION 12 did very will in previous GTG's.

I just always scratch my head why people think a $300 2 way with modest parts is supposed to hang with speakers costing 5X more. Even the 1099 is a 3 way and uses buyout woofers, and the design is "special" in some ways. FUSION 12 kick ass, but there is only so much it can do. A $750 3way 12" design would be a better comparison from a cost perspective if people keep wanting to compare the DIY stuff to the MFG made stuff.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is offline  
post #198 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 08:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 4,696
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 317 Post(s)
Liked: 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff in Canada View Post
Please read my post again and read only the words written not the ones made up in ones head or ones someone assumes I'm stating.
Ok, perhaps you can clarify what you meant by these comments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff in Canada View Post
a non blind test especially one with someone involved that has a vested interest is not reliable.
Who has a vested interest that tilted any "results" in their favour? Certainly not Mr. Funk. He didn't offer his opinion on any of the speakers. Could you possibly be referring to me???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff in Canada View Post
It's great that people are buying the 1099 (a little bit of the point eh?)
Where did we say the point of the GTG was to get people to buy 1099s? Where do you draw that conclusion from? For months now a few of the guys have wanted to hear them. So, this was the opportunity. That's the only reason they were there, because they were requested. Many times it almost didn't work out and my big TMM was the only speaker I was going to bring. It worked out and we had both there.

We've always maintained that this was about having fun and getting to hear some different speakers. There's another thread called Vancouver Summertime GTG where I even said (paraphrasing) "screw eq and measurements, lets just have a good time and set them up and go. Maybe level match them but otherwise just play them". Hardly trying to be scientific. Hardly any different than most GTGs. Just having a good time. And I repeat, you're welcome to ignore peoples comments.
Fatshaft and Bassment like this.
tuxedocivic is offline  
post #199 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 08:38 AM
Advanced Member
 
Bassment's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 830
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 367 Post(s)
Liked: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
The room matters too. Different room different results. The FUSION 12 did very will in previous GTG's.

I just always scratch my head why people think a $300 2 way with modest parts is supposed to hang with speakers costing 5X more. Even the 1099 is a 3 way and uses buyout woofers, and the design is "special" in some ways. FUSION 12 kick ass, but there is only so much it can do. A $750 3way 12" design would be a better comparison from a cost perspective if people keep wanting to compare the DIY stuff to the MFG made stuff.
Because they CAN easily hang with speakers costing 5x more because the speakers costing 5x more are hugely inflated prices because of manufacturer profit, dealer profit, shipping, finishes, overhead costs, design costs, insurance, warranty etc. etc. And there is way more to a speaker than cost.

Also 3 way's are not inherently better than 2 ways. There's advantages and disadvantages to both. Between the tempest and the 1099 (and generally comparing similar priced 2-way to 3-way), the 1099/3-way have better mids, tempest/2-way has better bass, and the highs should be very comparable as both are SEOS and a similar CD. Assuming speakers are the same cost, a 3-way design has to put cost into mids and more crossover parts, so they have to either take cost out of the woofer and/or tweeter. 3-ways are also way harder to design than 2-ways. In a very high cost speaker, and assuming perfect design, generally 3-ways (4-way including sub) are better than 2-ways (3 way including sub).

In the end some of it comes down to preference as well, some people have very strong opinions and swear by 2-ways (woofer and tweeter, no separate sub).


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Bassment is offline  
post #200 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 09:08 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,469
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 209 Post(s)
Liked: 432
My $500 stacks hang with $2500-$3000 so far.
MKtheater is offline  
post #201 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 09:20 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: A beautiful view of a lake
Posts: 7,608
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 300 Post(s)
Liked: 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
That and he's on here all day while at work ??????
Hey, I am on here all day, while at work. Wait a second, this is my work.

Mike Garrett, AV Science Sales Call Me: 585-671-2968
Email Me:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Brands we sell: 
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
 
Call for B-stock projectors
Stewart, Seymour, SE, SI, Falcon & many more.
RBH, Martin Logan, Triad, Atlantic Technology, MK Sound, BG Radia, SVS & Def Tech.
AV Science Sales 5 is offline  
post #202 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 09:21 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 22,873
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 166 Post(s)
Liked: 834
Actually a DNA360 + larger SEOS 12 should theoretically be better than a DNA-205 with an EOS8 right ?

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is offline  
post #203 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 5,736
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 670 Post(s)
Liked: 881
@Jeff in Canada, I would like to politely ask you to stop making silly posts where you are clearly making passive aggressive comments such as "a non blind test especially one with someone involved that has a vested interest is not reliable." or "Again to be overly clear. I'm not saying people consciously did anything wrong, but I think the test was flawed and biased" because clearly you are saying that we did something wrong and that the result are tilted in favor of the 228HT's and 1099's.


And then throwing a back handed comment out insinuating that Ryan has something to lose by the 1099's not being better then the Tempest. You're starting to come off as someone a little overly sensitive that people didn't rave about a speaker that you own and it wasn't at the top of anyone's list as the best speaker even though you're trying to play it off like you're not.


If you can't post anything that's relevant to this GTG I think this is the point where you exit stage right.
jbrown15 is online now  
post #204 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 09:37 AM
Member
 
crackhead2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Canada, Vancouver - Around the Tricities
Posts: 121
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff in Canada View Post
Was / will your GTG be a blind test? I put my belief in those. The mind is an interesting thing and it believes what it wants to believe. It requires a lot more work but to be very straight speaking, a non blind test especially one with someone involved that has a vested interest is not reliable. I'm not saying that it was rigged or that people are not being honest about what they feel they heard or what their preference was. Statistically, the testing was very flawed.

If you want a real test, it needs to be blind and you need to run it twice with the same people and the order needs to be varied / random. With the nature of speakers you also need to have people moving around to different locations to listen.

Other GTG's I've seen were some blind and some not. Those not for the most part were without stakeholders present, though I think Seaton and another company were present which would put those products in the same boat, but from what I read they understand testing and were pretty good about balancing their input prior to testing. Plus I think the Seaton one was in the blind GTG.

Again to be overly clear. I'm not saying people consciously did anything wrong, but I think the test was flawed and biased. You can argue against this but from someone who does testing as part of my area of expertise, I'm telling you it was flawed. You can save your retorts. I'm sure someone will say, everyone like the JTR and then said xyz about abc speaker. Anyone who said anything bad about a JTR speaker in a non blind test on this forum would be dismissed and that is in the subconscious of everyone reading this.

It's great that people are buying the 1099 (a little bit of the point eh?) and I'm sure they will love them. But look at the front page of AVS. Alot of people thought they could tell the difference between High Res audio and non and I'm sure when they submitted their opinions they thought they could. The evidence says they could not.
Blind sillyness...

Speaker placement effects tests
Components effect sounds
Participants are tied or hungry
Tests were runned incorrectly.

I find blind tests have very little place in audio testing.
An expert listener has the experience not to have (as much of) the familiarity bias.

Spending time with speakers in your own listening environment will be much more revealing than a few minute demo comparison between a few competitors.

If you want to buy a speaker based on a GTG you can go ahead. I know I'm not.

Best regards,
C2k (Steve)
Fatshaft, jbrown15 and Reddig like this.

Equipment List: Preamp/Processor: Sherbourn PT-7030 [] Speakers: Energy RC-70[] Amplifier: Parasound A21[] Projector: Epson 5020ub [] Screen: Elunevision Reference 150"
PC/HTPC: Intel Q6600 [] GTX670 [] 4 GB Ram [] Windows 7 Ultimate x64
Cabling: Speaker Cable: BlueJeansCable 10 AWG [] Interconnects: HDMI - Redmere Cable 50 ft
Audio Cable: XLR - From Orange County Speaker - 50ft
crackhead2k is offline  
post #205 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 09:56 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: A beautiful view of a lake
Posts: 7,608
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 300 Post(s)
Liked: 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff in Canada View Post
Was / will your GTG be a blind test? I put my belief in those. The mind is an interesting thing and it believes what it wants to believe. It requires a lot more work but to be very straight speaking, a non blind test especially one with someone involved that has a vested interest is not reliable. I'm not saying that it was rigged or that people are not being honest about what they feel they heard or what their preference was. Statistically, the testing was very flawed.

If you want a real test, it needs to be blind and you need to run it twice with the same people and the order needs to be varied / random. With the nature of speakers you also need to have people moving around to different locations to listen.

Other GTG's I've seen were some blind and some not. Those not for the most part were without stakeholders present, though I think Seaton and another company were present which would put those products in the same boat, but from what I read they understand testing and were pretty good about balancing their input prior to testing. Plus I think the Seaton one was in the blind GTG.

Again to be overly clear. I'm not saying people consciously did anything wrong, but I think the test was flawed and biased. You can argue against this but from someone who does testing as part of my area of expertise, I'm telling you it was flawed. You can save your retorts. I'm sure someone will say, everyone like the JTR and then said xyz about abc speaker. Anyone who said anything bad about a JTR speaker in a non blind test on this forum would be dismissed and that is in the subconscious of everyone reading this.

It's great that people are buying the 1099 (a little bit of the point eh?) and I'm sure they will love them. But look at the front page of AVS. Alot of people thought they could tell the difference between High Res audio and non and I'm sure when they submitted their opinions they thought they could. The evidence says they could not.


Did you read the full story. The people that did not have HRA systems, could not accurately identify the HRA tracks. Every person with an HRA system was 100% correct with HRA identification. By the way, I agree with what you are saying about blind listening tests as far as perceptions go.

Mike Garrett, AV Science Sales Call Me: 585-671-2968
Email Me:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Brands we sell: 
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
 
Call for B-stock projectors
Stewart, Seymour, SE, SI, Falcon & many more.
RBH, Martin Logan, Triad, Atlantic Technology, MK Sound, BG Radia, SVS & Def Tech.

Last edited by AV Science Sales 5; 07-30-2014 at 10:08 AM.
AV Science Sales 5 is offline  
post #206 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 09:57 AM
Advanced Member
 
Jeff in Canada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 522
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Ok, perhaps you can clarify what you meant by these comments?



Who has a vested interest that tilted any "results" in their favour? Certainly not Mr. Funk. He didn't offer his opinion on any of the speakers. Could you possibly be referring to me???
You like to create straw men I see. Again, I stress that you read what I wrote, not what you hear in your head. Please show me where I actually said what you state: such as "tilted" or in their favour? Please read the words I've written.

I wrote:
The mind is an interesting thing and it believes what it wants to believe. It requires a lot more work but to be very straight speaking, a non blind test especially one with someone involved that has a vested interest is not reliable. I'm not saying that it was rigged or that people are not being honest about what they feel they heard or what their preference was. Statistically, the testing was very flawed.

You apparently heard something different in your head because it does not match what I am writing. Read again where I state how a person can be biased.

I also stated:
My point again is that the testing method was flawed. Again, I state, I don't think anyone did anything consciously, but there is a built in bias in terms of how it was undertaken. There is a bias towards JTR, there is a bias toward a speaker designed by a good designer who is there and able to talk very knowledgeably about speakers / design to people who are there. It biases the listener.

Take note: You are a good designer and able to talk very knowledgeably about the speakers and designs. It bias' people in the room toward your design. Without regard to how good your design truly is, and I don't doubt it is really good, but it bias' them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Where did we say the point of the GTG was to get people to buy 1099s? Where do you draw that conclusion from? For months now a few of the guys have wanted to hear them. So, this was the opportunity. That's the only reason they were there, because they were requested. Many times it almost didn't work out and my big TMM was the only speaker I was going to bring. It worked out and we had both there.

We've always maintained that this was about having fun and getting to hear some different speakers. There's another thread called Vancouver Summertime GTG where I even said (paraphrasing) "screw eq and measurements, lets just have a good time and set them up and go. Maybe level match them but otherwise just play them". Hardly trying to be scientific. Hardly any different than most GTGs. Just having a good time. And I repeat, you're welcome to ignore peoples comments.
I have recommended your 1099's to people, so I'm not anti any of your speakers or your designs. My point has been that the review was flawed and if someone bases their decision on X being clearly a step above Y based on comments from a flawed analysis they should understand it was flawed. I am not critisizing you for wanting your design to be popular or to sell. My opinion is that it was part of your point in doing this. Perhaps you had no intention of this improving the stature of your speaker or the desire of others to want to buy it. Perhaps I'm wrong and you didn't care if another one sold.

Equipment: Denon AVR-4520, Fusion Tempest (LCR), Fusion Alchemy (4xSurrounds+Wides+Heights),15" Dayton Ultimax X 4, SMX 2.35:1 Screen

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Jeff in Canada; 07-30-2014 at 10:11 AM. Reason: spelling edit
Jeff in Canada is offline  
post #207 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 5,736
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 670 Post(s)
Liked: 881
@Jeff How was there any bias towards JTR speakers and 1099's? Now your talking out of your @ss!
Keep talking so you can lose a little more credibility.


How are the reviews flawed when ALL of the speakers where demoed under the exact same conditions?



You're really starting to come across as a pouty face Tempest owner.
jbrown15 is online now  
post #208 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 10:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chalugadp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 4,922
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 840 Post(s)
Liked: 988
I'm well aware of all the dbt info. The reason that I spent hours taking notes, measurements, and rarely taking breaks was to do my best. I'm not sure how bias comes in when I don't own any of the speaker's tested. If anything I was biased towards the tempests. I own( well used to, shipping it out today) the fusion 8 mtm and the tempest as an addition to my mains would have been the most cost effective and easiest addition.

I made sure SPL were close ( not perfect) and heard clips that I was very familiar with since I picked the music and listened to them dozens of times the week before.

The whole point of my analysis was to pick the best speaker for me which midrange and highs were the major factor. I also wanted to give feedback to people who could never hear these speakers in there home before buying.

I get a tonne of PMS a week with people asking for my advice. (nothing to do with flatpacks) I take that seriously. I wouldn't advise someone with a hidden agenda.

Playing those clips blindfolded I could have picked out the tempest speaker ( with 1099, jtrs,and funk) every single time. 100 for 100. The other three I could make mistakes cuz their similar. There in the same class. The tempest is not.
chalugadp is online now  
post #209 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 10:29 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: A beautiful view of a lake
Posts: 7,608
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 300 Post(s)
Liked: 406
Not to come to Jeff's defense, but as an example. Lets say you wanted to present two speakers. Speaker one has a fantastic looking cabinet and you are told the price for the pair of speakers is 20K. The second pair of speakers looks like crap and you are told they are only $600 for the pair. Right off the bat, you are going to expect the vastly more expensive speakers to sound better. So when you see the more expensive speakers playing you are going to be biased, by what you are looking at. Now if the speakers are behind a screen and you can't see them or know which speaker is which, then you are not going to be influenced. But this GTG was not a scientific experiment and was never meant to be or claimed to be. Just a bunch of guys listening to speakers and giving their opinion on what they heard in that room.

Mike Garrett, AV Science Sales Call Me: 585-671-2968
Email Me:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Brands we sell: 
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
 
Call for B-stock projectors
Stewart, Seymour, SE, SI, Falcon & many more.
RBH, Martin Logan, Triad, Atlantic Technology, MK Sound, BG Radia, SVS & Def Tech.
AV Science Sales 5 is offline  
post #210 of 308 Old 07-30-2014, 10:36 AM
Advanced Member
 
Bassment's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 830
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 367 Post(s)
Liked: 145
Bias can be from anything. Saying one speaker costs more than another causes bias. Changing spear wire from copper wire to expensive wire causes bias (if you believe). The designer of the 1099 in the room with you guys causes bias. Tux's explanations of audio, design, etc. create bias, you want it to be better, because he's so enthusiastic about it and it's his design. Everything causes bias, most people think they're immune, but they're not. Same with advertising. Ask anyone and they will always say they don't buy things based off TV commercials, or advertisements. But everyone does, it's subliminal. We're affected by everything. Everyone wants to think they're above bias, but in reality no one is. That's why companies spend billions of dollars on advertising.

In the end, it's all preference and you buy what you like best. Bias effects you in real life, so you should use it while buying things. People enjoy their purchases more when there's an emotional connection.

I wouldn't be surprised if the JTR and 1099's were liked more in a blind test there either, it seems everyone there really loves their mids.

My only issue is the blatant statements like saying the tempests are not even in the same class as the JTR's or 1099's. You can say "in my opinion" before that statment but you can't state that as a fact unless their scientific evidence like a blind test, I think this is where Jeff is coming from too. The tempests have a better woofer, a better CD, and a better waveguide than the 1099. They're not "in another class".


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Bassment is offline  
Reply Speakers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off