Vancouver Summertime GTG Results - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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Old 07-30-2014, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
I'm well aware of all the dbt info. The reason that I spent hours taking notes, measurements, and rarely taking breaks was to do my best. I'm not sure how bias comes in when I don't own any of the speaker's tested. If anything I was biased towards the tempests. I own( well used to, shipping it out today) the fusion 8 mtm and the tempest as an addition to my mains would have been the most cost effective and easiest addition.

I made sure SPL were close ( not perfect) and heard clips that I was very familiar with since I picked the music and listened to them dozens of times the week before.

The whole point of my analysis was to pick the best speaker for me which midrange and highs were the major factor. I also wanted to give feedback to people who could never hear these speakers in there home before buying.

I get a tonne of PMS a week with people asking for my advice. (nothing to do with flatpacks) I take that seriously. I wouldn't advise someone with a hidden agenda.

Playing those clips blindfolded I could have picked out the tempest speaker ( with 1099, jtrs,and funk) every single time. 100 for 100. The other three I could make mistakes cuz their similar. There in the same class. The tempest is not.
I understand what he is saying but it is a moot point. I have been in the presence of speaker designers and it did not change the way I felt about their product. Actually at the last GTG I liked one of the designers there the least. My opinion is you let your ears do the talking for you. I know what I heard and what I like and nobody is going to influence me into liking something. If I don't like the way a speaker sounds, I will be very upfront about it. This hobby is so subjective it's crazy to even believe anyone's opinions without hearing something for yourself. As for blind testing, I think it is the only way to rule out any biased feelings at a GTG. However IMO the only way to demo speakers is in your space for say two weeks then change to something else, then you will know whats missing or what you like.

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Old 07-30-2014, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
Not to come to Jeff's defense, but as an example. Lets say you wanted to present two speakers. Speaker one has a fantastic looking cabinet and you are told the price for the pair of speakers is 20K. The second pair of speakers looks like crap and you are told they are only $600 for the pair. Right off the bat, you are going to expect the vastly more expensive speakers to sound better. So when you see the more expensive speakers playing you are going to be biased, by what you are looking at. Now if the speakers are behind a screen and you can't see them or know which speaker is which, then you are not going to be influenced. But this GTG was not a scientific experiment and was never meant to be or claimed to be. Just a bunch of guys listening to speakers and giving their opinion on what they heard in that room.
I understand what you're trying to say Mike but if that's the case the Funk Audio 8.2P's would of hands down been everyone's favorites and that couldn't be farther from the truth. No one said they were the best speakers, most even agreed that in the smaller room that I have the 6.1P's sounded better.
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Old 07-30-2014, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I understand what he is saying but it is a moot point. I have been in the presence of speaker designers and it did not change the way I felt about their product. Actually at the last GTG I liked one of the designers there the least. My opinion is you let your ears do the talking for you. I know what I heard and what I like and nobody is going to influence me into liking something. If I don't like the way a speaker sounds, I will be very upfront about it. This hobby is so subjective it's crazy to even believe anyone's opinions without hearing something for yourself. As for blind testing, I think it is the only way to rule out bias at a GTG. However IMO the only way to demo speakers is in your space for say two weeks then change to something else, then you will know whats missing or what you like.
bias probably isn't the correct word, it's more of a placebo. It's not a decision someone makes to have. Tux is a good guy, he explains everything and doesn't even take money for his design. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propinquity_effect Just because there's a designer in the room, doesn't mean you'll like their speaker more, but anything can have an effect. Them all living in vancouver / the west coast can have an effect.

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I understand what you're trying to say Mike but if that's the case the Funk Audio 8.2P's would of hands down been everyone's favorites and that couldn't be farther from the truth. No one said they were the best speakers, most even agreed that in the smaller room that I have the 6.1P's sounded better.
There's way more than just cost and presence of a designer though. Bias can be positive or negative. Bias towards waveguides, bias against company made speakers, bias to a color of speaker, bias to look of drivers, etc. etc.

There's tons of psychological stuff on these topics. Even this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere-exposure_effect could cause bias.

Bias is probably not the right word to use but I can't think of another word.

We're probably all biased towards DIY stuff, I wouldn't be surprised if someone who had a $50,000 stereo set-up ( that doesn't sound good, maybe it's in a bad room) comes and listened to all the best SEOS designs and hates them all.

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Old 07-30-2014, 11:59 AM
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Jeff, no straw men. Just wondering who the person with vested interest is? That part of your post potentially offends me. Also the part about how that was the point of the GTG. The rest of your post is fine. Call the GtG slanted and unreliable. We'll hold the same bar against you later. But the offensive parts I'd like you to answer.

Do I have a vested interest in seeing my speakers do well? What do you know about me? Perhaps you have a vested interest in lifting up the tempest, I know you've personally met Mr. Bagby.
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Old 07-30-2014, 12:07 PM
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Jeff, no straw men. Just wondering who the person with vested interest is? That part of your post potentially offends me. Also the part about how that was the point of the GTG. The rest of your post is fine. Call the GtG slanted and unreliable. We'll hold the same bar against you later. But the offensive parts I'd like you to answer.

Do I have a vested interest in seeing my speakers do well? What do you know about me? Perhaps you have a vested interest in lifting up the tempest, I know you've personally met Mr. Bagby.
He probably thought you made money off the 1099 sales
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Old 07-30-2014, 12:10 PM
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I'm not defending Jeff either but I understand what he's saying about bias. Every year in college the marketing students would take jello pudding cups removing the labels and tell survey tasters that one was jello brand and the other was a store generic. The point being the pudding labeled "generic" would be rated lower across the board because of people's bias against generics even though it was exactly the same stuff. Every time FatShaft post about how much he loves the 1099 (which I absolutely love reading ) he's influencing your bias even if you don't know it. So I take the GTG with a grain of salt but I still really enjoy reading the results and want to thank everyone for posting their impressions.

But I think Jeff is completely off the mark implying that this was done in some way to promote the 1099. Are you serious? From all of Tuxedocivic posts I walk away thinking he's a stand up guy and at the same time the world's worst sales guy! It would be easier to pomote the 1099 by editing his posts rather than orchastrating an entire GTG just to promote the 1099. I think you owe him an apology for saying such.
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Old 07-30-2014, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Boxozaxu View Post
I'm not defending Jeff either but I understand what he's saying about bias. Every year in college the marketing students would take jello pudding cups removing the labels and tell survey tasters that one was jello brand and the other was a store generic. The point being the pudding labeled "generic" would be rated lower across the board because of people's bias against generics even though it was exactly the same stuff. Every time FatShaft post about how much he loves the 1099 (which I absolutely love reading ) he's influencing your bias even if you don't know it. So I take the GTG with a grain of salt but I still really enjoy reading the results and want to thank everyone for posting their impressions.

But I think Jeff is completely off the mark implying that this was done in some way to promote the 1099. Are you serious? From all of Tuxedocivic posts I walk away thinking he's a stand up guy and at the same time the world's worst sales guy! It would be easier to pomote the 1099 by editing his posts rather than orchastrating an entire GTG just to promote the 1099. I think you owe him an apology for saying such.
Another funny "bias" type test/prank is to tell someone they can't tell the difference between skim, 1% milk and whole milk. Blind fold them and give them a glass of milk, and then another. Then give them a glass of orange juice. They'll throw up right away because of the acidic fluid, because they're expecting a basic fluid. Not really a bias I guess, but something funny your brain does.
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Old 07-30-2014, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Boxozaxu View Post
I'm not defending Jeff either but I understand what he's saying about bias. Every year in college the marketing students would take jello pudding cups removing the labels and tell survey tasters that one was jello brand and the other was a store generic. The point being the pudding labeled "generic" would be rated lower across the board because of people's bias against generics even though it was exactly the same stuff. Every time FatShaft post about how much he loves the 1099 (which I absolutely love reading ) he's influencing your bias even if you don't know it. So I take the GTG with a grain of salt but I still really enjoy reading the results and want to thank everyone for posting their impressions.

But I think Jeff is completely off the mark implying that this was done in some way to promote the 1099. Are you serious? From all of Tuxedocivic posts I walk away thinking he's a stand up guy and at the same time the world's worst sales guy! It would be easier to pomote the 1099 by editing his posts rather than orchastrating an entire GTG just to promote the 1099. I think you owe him an apology for saying such.
I know it is not irrelevant, but I saw a video a long time ago with a blind wine tasting event and it was a trick because all the tasters were given the same wine in all 4 glasses. It was hilarious at all the opinions they gave and then when they told them they drank the same wine in all the different glasses, the stupid looks on their faces. Nobody could tell they were drinking the same wine. I would love to see a blind speaker GTG with the same speaker and hear the results people gave.

This is not the same video, but the same point

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Old 07-30-2014, 12:32 PM
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Bias can be from anything. Saying one speaker costs more than another causes bias. Changing spear wire from copper wire to expensive wire causes bias (if you believe). The designer of the 1099 in the room with you guys causes bias. Tux's explanations of audio, design, etc. create bias, you want it to be better, because he's so enthusiastic about it and it's his design. Everything causes bias, most people think they're immune, but they're not. Same with advertising. Ask anyone and they will always say they don't buy things based off TV commercials, or advertisements. But everyone does, it's subliminal. We're affected by everything. Everyone wants to think they're above bias, but in reality no one is. That's why companies spend billions of dollars on advertising.

In the end, it's all preference and you buy what you like best. Bias effects you in real life, so you should use it while buying things. People enjoy their purchases more when there's an emotional connection.

I wouldn't be surprised if the JTR and 1099's were liked more in a blind test there either, it seems everyone there really loves their mids.

My only issue is the blatant statements like saying the tempests are not even in the same class as the JTR's or 1099's. You can say "in my opinion" before that statment but you can't state that as a fact unless their scientific evidence like a blind test, I think this is where Jeff is coming from too. The tempests have a better woofer, a better CD, and a better waveguide than the 1099. They're not "in another class".
Yep and better parts do not necessarily make a better speaker. A good design with good parts match and a correctly designed crossover in a good cabinet will beat the best parts in a poor design any day. I am spending a lot of money on speaker parts and I only hope that the end result is good. As of right now, all I can say is my speakers have great potential.

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Old 07-30-2014, 12:35 PM
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I understand what you're trying to say Mike but if that's the case the Funk Audio 8.2P's would of hands down been everyone's favorites and that couldn't be farther from the truth. No one said they were the best speakers, most even agreed that in the smaller room that I have the 6.1P's sounded better.
Not saying bias overcomes everything, just saying it is there.
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Old 07-30-2014, 12:38 PM
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My gtg will be fully visible, fun, with comparisons. Info will be there for people to use or ignore. The biggest bias I read is people commenting on products they have never heard. [emoji41]
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Old 07-30-2014, 12:48 PM
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And just to add. I love reading about these GTG's and all of the speakers that are at them. I like to try different speakers. I am not sure that I have ever had a set of mains last me much more than a year in my room.

These GTG's give me an idea on what I think I might want to try out in my room, but with this last speaker build, testing will have to come to an end for a while, since these will be built into the baffle wall as part of the wall.

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Old 07-30-2014, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
And just to add. I love reading about these GTG's and all of the speakers that are at them. I like to try different speakers. I am not sure that I have ever had a set of mains last me much more than a year in my room.

These GTG's give me an idea on what I think I might want to try out in my room, but with this last speaker build, testing will have to come to an end for a while, since these will be built into the baffle wall as part of the wall.
You need to have a gtg with your awesome builds your doing !
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Old 07-30-2014, 12:58 PM
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Guys, the reason I state what I do is because I have tested countless gear like you guys with tons of experience and each time I was critiqued in what I have could have done better. All I am saying is the test conditions and placement were the same but the frequencies were not and that is the most important baseline. It is OK to say one was better but until you make each one flat or your preference in response you won't know for sure. You can't even level match correctly unless the responses are flat or within a certain window like +/-3 dBs. Why? Because when you calibrate you are setting the level to the peaks of the responses and it can vary without measuring. Of course speakers still sound great just placing them in room but some may be better than others due to the response to the room, not the speaker. I can't stress this enough. Why? Because I have done the same thing countless times. Yes, I have people over whenever they could come, I have never said no to a member. I mean look at what Carp said about my speakers, could not even listen to them at 80 dBs. Now everyone from that GTG thinks the DR-250's are crap. I bought them because I know they are a pain in the butt to get right in a room(they are meant for outside concerts). In my room they beat every speaker so far from 7 different people and none said what Carp said. I don't have a magical room! So to say one speaker is better based on a GTG is really hard without data to show why. BTW, I say the same thing for everyone no matter what speakers are played.


I know how time flies at GTG's and EQing could be hard and why I always use 2 different speakers at a time even though I had many on hand.
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Old 07-30-2014, 01:14 PM
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Guys, the reason I state what I do is because I have tested countless gear like you guys with tons of experience and each time I was critiqued in what I have could have done better. All I am saying is the test conditions and placement were the same but the frequencies were not and that is the most important baseline. It is OK to say one was better but until you make each one flat or your preference in response you won't know for sure. You can't even level match correctly unless the responses are flat or within a certain window like +/-3 dBs. Why? Because when you calibrate you are setting the level to the peaks of the responses and it can vary without measuring. Of course speakers still sound great just placing them in room but some may be better than others due to the response to the room, not the speaker. I can't stress this enough. Why? Because I have done the same thing countless times. Yes, I have people over whenever they could come, I have never said no to a member. I mean look at what Carp said about my speakers, could not even listen to them at 80 dBs. Now everyone from that GTG thinks the DR-250's are crap. I bought them because I know they are a pain in the butt to get right in a room(they are meant for outside concerts). In my room they beat every speaker so far from 7 different people and none said what Carp said. I don't have a magical room! So to say one speaker is better based on a GTG is really hard without data to show why. BTW, I say the same thing for everyone no matter what speakers are played.


I know how time flies at GTG's and EQing could be hard and why I always use 2 different speakers at a time even though I had many on hand.
That's a good point about the level matching. The 1099 and JTR measurements were really good, Tempests were the worst I've ever seen.

With this measured FR, there's no way the mids are going to sound good either:

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Old 07-30-2014, 01:47 PM
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Old 07-30-2014, 01:48 PM
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I mean look at what Carp said about my speakers, could not even listen to them at 80 dBs. Now everyone from that GTG thinks the DR-250's are crap.
I don't think they are crap, I think something was wrong. Michael and Dennis both said they could see the potential that they have and I think Micheal uses a smaller model for his surrounds.

You say that eq'd they sound a lot like the Yorkvilles? That gives me a really good idea of their sound, I haven't heard the Yorkvilles but I have heard the Danley SH 50's and 60's and they are supposed to have a lot of similarities to the Yorks. I really like the 2 Danley speakers that I have heard.

Roughly how many db's do you pull down the highs in your room?
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Old 07-30-2014, 02:03 PM
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Well, I was just making a point. My speakers are probably the worst uneq'd speakers because they were made that way. All my other speakers I have measured were always much flatter and the flatter the natural response the better I liked it so I started making every speaker flat and then compare. What this does though is separate the dynamic big boys from the rest as EQ can power limit the speakers if one does not have enough power or high enough sensitivity. I make my 109 dB sensitive speaker into 100 dBs because I can. If I did this to a 90 dB speaker I would run out of headroom fast. Of course the flatter in room response without EQ the better for me but I have never seen a flat response(+/-3) in room without EQ. If one likes a speaker at +/- 6 dBs and don't care what it could sound like flatter then that is there choice. These speakers are designed to be +/- 3 dBs or less so I would think a flat response in room deserves that response, just like listening outside.


I EQ my DR's by pulling down the peaks to my lowest point point so they are flat. Of course if I ever play them at their limits the natural response will come into play but I never reach those limits, why people should do compression sweeps to make sure their response is preserved at their preferred levels. I just make sure I have the same response for reference with each speaker so I EQ based on a 105 dB sweep for each speaker. If the response changes I know it is compressing. Same goes for the subs, I have a 10 dB inductance peak from 30-50hz in my subs which make my rolloff much steeper than desired so I pull down the response and then raise to desired level to make sure the response stays the same.
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Old 07-30-2014, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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That's a good point about the level matching. The 1099 and JTR measurements were really good, Tempests were the worst I've ever seen.

With this measured FR, there's no way the mids are going to sound good either:


The Tempest, 1099's and 228HT's are all within 1.5-2dB's of each other as far as level matching at the GTG was concerned.
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Old 07-30-2014, 02:32 PM
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Here are some responses I have taken from speakers not EQ'd.


JTR 888LP





DR-250





DR-250 in baffle wall





SEOS 10





Unity 215





DR-200





Triads(disregard the over 10khz)





M&K S-5000's





Non stacked DR_200





JBL pro 4675C-LF's EQ'd







Disregard the below 60hz as that is subs and not speakers. The point is without EQ the responses are all over the place. I get them all flat and then I can judge clarity, dynamics, feel, sound stage, etc..
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Old 07-30-2014, 02:33 PM
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The Tempest, 1099's and 228HT's are all within 1.5-2dB's of each other as far as level matching at the GTG was concerned.

At what frequency?
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Old 07-30-2014, 02:53 PM
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Very few people ever get to audition 3 to 4 speakers at one time in their place Most just don't have the cash myself included to lay down thousands of dollars at one time most will not build three different diy speakers knowing they'll only keep one there just isn't time to listen to more than 3 sets if speakers with full eq it's also not very fun to have 8 people sit around while someone I's doing the eq
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Old 07-30-2014, 03:21 PM
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Hey, I never said it was easy or possible with that many speakers, I said it is hard to know why you like a speaker better than another without the same response. If a speaker has a peak at 1khz of 10 dBs and another has a peak at 100hz of 10 dBs the levels get set to 100hz on one and 1 kHz on the other. You could have a huge difference on vocals in spl alone without knowing it. The response matters!
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Old 07-30-2014, 03:49 PM
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So with all that said I have no choice...
I just scratched "Doing a GTG" off my bucket list!
Congrats to the FLAWED GTG my fellow Canadians.

I hope you guys had fun despite the pathetic GTG you had.
Tux...you're 1099's are meh! anyways here my latest test with my 1099's

My Build Thread
Equipment Speakers:
3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
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Old 07-30-2014, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
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So with all that said I have no choice...
I just scratched "Doing a GTG" off my bucket list!
Congrats to the FLAWED GTG my fellow Canadians.

I hope you guys had fun despite the pathetic GTG you had.
Tux...you're 1099's are meh! anyways here my latest test with my 1099's
Yeah the way this thread has turned I don't think I'll be hosting any more GTG's!

Congrats FS! My wife is due Sept 20th with our third and last child!...lol
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Old 07-30-2014, 04:20 PM
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Yeah the way this thread has turned I don't think I'll be hosting any more GTG's!

Congrats FS! My wife is due Sept 20th with our third and last child!...lol

Nah, don't say that. GTG's are too much fun. I've hosted a few and been to a ton and the vast majority of the the results/impressions threads are fun, insightful, and friendly. Not every time, but most of the time.

I cannot imagine going into the Wisconsin GTG thread about the gtg they had last weekend and ripping people if they didn't like my 215's. Most people I know on the forums have the same mindset - THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE FUN!!!!! - unfortunately you had some feedback from a fun hater(s)? that sent this thread down the wrong road.

Ignore it, I bet this thread will take a turn for the better.

Ohhh #3 , congratulations! We stopped at 2, I don't envy you for starting over the baby through toddler years but still so worth it.
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Old 07-30-2014, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Nah, don't say that. GTG's are too much fun. I've hosted a few and been to a ton and the vast majority of the the results/impressions threads are fun, insightful, and friendly. Not every time, but most of the time.

I cannot imagine going into the Wisconsin GTG thread about the gtg they had last weekend and ripping people if they didn't like my 215's. Most people I know on the forums have the same mindset - THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE FUN!!!!! - unfortunately you had some feedback from a fun hater(s)? that sent this thread down the wrong road.

Ignore it, I bet this thread will take a turn for the better.

Ohhh #3 , congratulations! We stopped at 2, I don't envy you for starting over the baby through toddler years but still so worth it.
The 215's suck. Those reviews form the MN GTG are biased because Jeff was there

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Old 07-30-2014, 04:34 PM
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The 215's suck. Those reviews form the MN GTG are biased because Jeff was there
Haha, nice.

I'll tell you what they do suck. Electricity. I know that the inuke amps are efficient but this last month has been significantly cooler than the month before and my bill was quite a bit higher this month and I can only think of one variable that's different.

Maybe it's something else but I have had the Inukes on almost all day every day since late June.
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Old 07-30-2014, 04:44 PM
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Haha, nice.

I'll tell you what they do suck. Electricity. I know that the inuke amps are efficient but this last month has been significantly cooler than the month before and my bill was quite a bit higher this month and I can only think of one variable that's different.

Maybe it's something else but I have had the Inukes on almost all day every day since late June.
I had to do it I can relate when my son use play call of duty for 14 hours. That Xbox use to suck some juice. Like I have said I am interested in some of these new amps coming out with DSP and PFC like the Funk that Joe mentioned.
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Old 07-30-2014, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I had to do it I can relate when my son use play call of duty for 14 hours. That Xbox use to suck some juice. Like I have said I am interested in some of these new amps coming out with DSP and PFC like the Funk that Joe mentioned.
Dave, I actually talked to Nathan and he said next time he's in Vancouver he'll try to stop by and we'll hook up one of his amps to my JTR's to see how it does power HE speakers. He doesn't think it'll be noises at all.
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