Looking for a budget Bookshelf speaker - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 110 Old 07-21-2014, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post
Where are you seeing almost 2 grand each Curtis? The current matching towers for those PSB bookshelves are the new Imagine X line, specifically the Imagine X1T and X2T which are very similar to the models they replaced, the Image T5 and T6.

I totally agree about the value and capability of DIY speakers. For example, from DIY Sound Group you can get 3 X Elusive (aka Tux) 1099 kits ($380 IIRC) and cabinet flatpacks for about $1350 shipped. Allow for consumables and miscellaneous bits for say $1500 complete. These must be run with subs and are a very honest 99dB/1W/1m sensitivity, so they can driven by a hamster wheel. You could cough up for an Emotiva XPA-3 just for the heck of it and still be $1700 ahead.
On their website they are $1900 on crutchfield they are PSB Imagine T2 Tower $1794.

And yes I totally agree on that build you are talking on DIY once you reach into the $1300-$1900 range it is a completely different ball game.
And when you get into the $10,000-$100,000 speakers that is just abunch of rich people bragging about how much money they wasted on something.
But I don't need anything like that I'am happy with some rears and fronts with 1 sub.
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post #32 of 110 Old 07-21-2014, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by crazyrob425 View Post
What the settings you have set-up your receiver at? Did you use the Auto EQ set-up with the receiver? Did you change the settings since you bought the receiver?

Again Polk Monitor's are not known for lacking highs, they have been described as bright by some people.

Cheap bookshelfs will not really fix the problem by adding more bass, and Cambridge S30's are considered nuetral with less emphsis on highs.

Highs at concerts can be exaggerated if you are close to the stage do to the huge horn tweeters professional speakers have to help cover the large area.

To be clear I am not bandwagoning Polk's here, I am just analyzing your experience with them which doesn't fit the mold most people characterize their sound.

If Polks are NOT bright enough for you I suggest looking at Klipsch speakers. As for bass a subwoofer is a better buy to handle the bass.
Yes I used the Eq mic with it.
Then wasn't happy with it still so I set the bass down all the way and treble all the way up.
Still same thing just not standing out in the music i listen to.
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post #33 of 110 Old 07-21-2014, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by curtissp View Post
Yes I used the Eq mic with it.
Then wasn't happy with it still so I set the bass down all the way and treble all the way up.
Still same thing just not standing out in the music i listen to.
Do you have the jumpers in place from the top and bottom speaker hookups? Are all hookups tighten down?

Might want to go through the settings through your receiver and make sure they are good. In default normal Auto EQ, the receiver lowers frequencies above 2k -3db. Try setting the the memory setting curve to Flat. These autoEQ's especially the older ones like you have weren't really too accurate so you have to go through the settings of your receiver to verify they set it up right.

If the highs are lacking your tweeters might be broken/damage. Have you put your ear to it?

I would try your friends Klipsch KB-15's in YOUR room and look into a subwoofer
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post #34 of 110 Old 07-21-2014, 08:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by crazyrob425 View Post
Do you have the jumpers in place from the top and bottom speaker hookups? Are all hookups tighten down?

Might want to go through the settings through your receiver and make sure they are good. In default normal Auto EQ, the receiver lowers frequencies above 2k -3db. Try setting the the memory setting curve to Flat. These autoEQ's especially the older ones like you have weren't really too accurate so you have to go through the settings of your receiver to verify they set it up right.

If the highs are lacking your tweeters might be broken/damage. Have you put your ear to it?

I would try your friends Klipsch KB-15's in YOUR room and look into a subwoofer
Well I only have two speakers and a NXG 500 subwoofer.
I did it the way I was showed on a youtube video.
I don't think they're damaged they're brand new and sound exactly the same.
They're just a horrible speakers made to make money off of as a production line.

I've had my friends Klipsch 15's hooked up to my system and they are better like noticeably better and i'm not really even a autophile.
The highs we're better and lows we're better.
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post #35 of 110 Old 07-21-2014, 09:23 AM
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If you know you like the KB-15s, then grab them. They are on sale at BestBuy for $199.

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post #36 of 110 Old 07-21-2014, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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If you know you like the KB-15s, then grab them. They are on sale at BestBuy for $199.
Wanting something better.
And they're on Newegg for $159
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post #37 of 110 Old 07-21-2014, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by curtissp View Post
Wanting something better.
And they're on Newegg for $159
Did you still order the Cambridge S30 speakers?

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post #38 of 110 Old 07-21-2014, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Did you still order the Cambridge S30 speakers?
Yes, still haven't received a confirmation number for my product yet or tracking number though.
Hope they don't cancel it cause of it being a discontinued product.
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post #39 of 110 Old 07-21-2014, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by curtissp View Post
Yes I used the Eq mic with it.
Then wasn't happy with it still so I set the bass down all the way and treble all the way up.
Still same thing just not standing out in the music i listen to.
I'm not a fan of most Polks, but they definitely should not sound anything like you describe. Something is either not adjusted right in the receiver, or like was mentioned earlier, the jumpers between the low and high frequency binding posts are loose or missing.
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post #40 of 110 Old 07-21-2014, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by curtissp View Post
Wanting something better.
And they're on Newegg for $159
Better is relative to individual listening preferences. Could be the different sonic signature of another <$200 speaker set would not be to your tastes.
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post #41 of 110 Old 07-21-2014, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by curtissp View Post
Yes, still haven't received a confirmation number for my product yet or tracking number though.
Hope they don't cancel it cause of it being a discontinued product.
If they are in stock - and they are - they will send it.

You can always Email or call them, in case something got hung up.

I have owned many budget speakers - and they do not sound like an
average budget speaker to me - a lot of us really do like them.

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post #42 of 110 Old 07-21-2014, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post
Better is relative to individual listening preferences. Could be the different sonic signature of another <$200 speaker set would not be to your tastes.
I have owned the KB-15 and I could not live with them - I showed them the front door.

However, a lot of people do like them.

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post #43 of 110 Old 07-21-2014, 01:16 PM
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I have owned the KB-15 and I could not live with them - I showed them the front door.

However, a lot of people do like them.
And a lot of people would think that the Polk 65T sound good compared to <$200 offerings.

So the OP doesn't like one set of speakers that some people would like, and then he likes the KB-15, which I suspect many AVSers would not like. Seems risky to buy any more speakers in this budget range until he's done some listening.

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post #44 of 110 Old 07-21-2014, 05:34 PM
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Gigantic Klipschhorns are one thing, a small bookshelf speaker is entirely another story and cannot, under any circumstances have a nearly 10db sensitivity advantage over all other similarly sized, and similarly rated frequency response speakers...just because.

Hoffmans Iron Law, and it's a law because you can't get around it, states you can have any 2 of the 3 following things, but not all 3.

1. Deep bass response.
2. A small cabinet.
3. High sensitivity.

Klipsch is claiming to have all three, and they simply do not.
What does he say about loading? A port loaded speaker of the same size will have deeper bass, higher sensitivity over an acoustic suspension loaded. A horn loaded speaker will have similar increases over port loading. All without increasing the size of the cabinet.

I don't argue the current Klipsch' may not be as efficient. It may be why I prefer the earlier models. Thanks for the feedback.
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post #45 of 110 Old 07-21-2014, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post
Hi KJ

Here's a fairly recent AVS discussion with a couple of examples: Is it worth upgrading to floor standing speakers? (start here & continue)

I don't think there's a suggestion that Klipsch has always done it or does it with all speaker lines. But certainly in the more recent reviews I've seen of their "consumer" lines, Klipsch' measured sensitivity has never come within a bull's roar of what they claim in their specifications. Here are a few more examples that popped up with a quick Google search (try: "klipsch ht labs measures":

Exhibit 1:
Measured: http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...-labs-measures
Klipsch claims: http://www.klipsch.com.au/rb-61-ii-b...s-pair/details , http://www.klipsch.com.au/rc-62-ii-c...peaker/details , http://www.klipsch.com.au/rs-62-ii-s...peaker/details

Exhibit 2:
Measured: http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...-labs-measures
Klipsch claims: http://www.klipsch.com.au/quintet-ho...m-2012/details

Exhibit 3:
Measured: http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...-labs-measures
Klipsch claims: http://www.klipsch.com.au/kl-650-thx...peaker/details , http://www.klipsch.com.au/kl-525-thx...peaker/details

In all cases S&V, while listing most other specifications on the "Specs" page before the measurements, just happen to omit the sensitivity for all speakers. Completely gutless if you ask me and probably one of the reasons why you hadn't come across this issue before. Klipsch currently trade on a reputation for having high sensitivity speakers, but with the likely exception of their heritage and pro lines, their speakers are generally no more sensitive than any others.
Thanks for the links. I think many of these are also 8ohm instead of 4ohm common with the earlier models. Could be a factor.
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post #46 of 110 Old 07-21-2014, 05:40 PM - Thread Starter
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And a lot of people would think that the Polk 65T sound good compared to <$200 offerings.

So the OP doesn't like one set of speakers that some people would like, and then he likes the KB-15, which I suspect many AVSers would not like. Seems risky to buy any more speakers in this budget range until he's done some listening.
Maybe the people who said it sounded amazing haven't heard better sounding speakers or they're in different wall dimensions than me all that plays a big aspect of it.
They sound clean, but they're missing a lot of bass and highs in songs I listen to.
That my friends klipsch picks up.
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post #47 of 110 Old 07-21-2014, 06:30 PM
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What does he say about loading? A port loaded speaker of the same size will have deeper bass, higher sensitivity over an acoustic suspension loaded. A horn loaded speaker will have similar increases over port loading. All without increasing the size of the cabinet.

I don't argue the current Klipsch' may not be as efficient. It may be why I prefer the earlier models. Thanks for the feedback.
If a given driver works well in both a sealed and ported enclosure, the ported enclosure will be larger in almost every case. The sensitivity will be the same between the two except near the tuning frequency of the port, but it's going to be a larger enclosure than a sealed one. I've never seen a small horn loaded bass enclosure before.

Now Hoffmans Iron Law applies to bass frequencies of course, but if one wants a small enclosure and deep bass, sensitivity will be low. If they want a small enclosure and high sensitivity, low bass will be very limited. If they want low bass and high sensitivity, the enclosure will be large. Think of pro audio woofers, their sensitivity is generally pretty high, but so is their Fs, and they also need fairly large enclosures.

There are ways to increase bass frequencies and the sensitivity, but it's always at the expense of a larger enclosure.

Klipschhorns are massive as are other high sensitivity speakers such as the Altec Lansing Model 19, and even with those two examples, the lowest bass frequencies are still limited to a degree. When Klipsch sells a small bookshelf speaker, and if the frequency spectrum is to be balanced, using a horn loaded tweeter, they either have to pad the tweeter way down which of course lowers the overall averaged sensitivity, or they would have to make an awful sounding, very unbalanced speaker. I have no idea where they pull some of their sensitivity numbers from, but it can't be from actual measurements.
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post #48 of 110 Old 07-21-2014, 06:32 PM
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Thanks for the links. I think many of these are also 8ohm instead of 4ohm common with the earlier models. Could be a factor.
It isn't, unless a manufacturer uses 2.83v as a reference rather than 1 watt @ 1 meter. 2.83v is 2 watts into a 4 ohm load and 1 watt into a 8 ohm load, so using 2.83v gives a 4 ohm speaker a 3db advantage, as least on the spec sheet. In reality it doesn't make a difference as far as real sensitivity.
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post #49 of 110 Old 07-21-2014, 07:26 PM
 
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On their website they are $1900 on crutchfield they are PSB Imagine T2 Tower $1794.

And yes I totally agree on that build you are talking on DIY once you reach into the $1300-$1900 range it is a completely different ball game.
And when you get into the $10,000-$100,000 speakers that is just abunch of rich people bragging about how much money they wasted on something.
But I don't need anything like that I'am happy with some rears and fronts with 1 sub.
I think we might be talking past each other Curtis. If you look back I only mentioned the "Imagine X" towers, not the higher end "Imagine". Unfortunately, PSB has them all on the same product page, but they're actually quite different speakers. Click the links in post 29 to see Crutchfield's prices for the PSB towers I'm talking about. The Image T6 are a very good speaker and are a steal at $320 each.
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post #50 of 110 Old 07-21-2014, 08:05 PM
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What does he say about loading? A port loaded speaker of the same size will have deeper bass, higher sensitivity over an acoustic suspension loaded. A horn loaded speaker will have similar increases over port loading. All without increasing the size of the cabinet.

I don't argue the current Klipsch' may not be as efficient. It may be why I prefer the earlier models. Thanks for the feedback.
A sealed woofer (which is not the same thing as an acoustic suspension woofer) may actually go deeper than a ported speaker, all else equal, but it won't have as much energy higher up in the, say, 40 - 50 Hz range. Horn loading will increase efficiency, but not bass reach. That's not a contradiction to the iron law. And does the Klipsch really have a horn-loaded woofer?
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post #51 of 110 Old 07-21-2014, 09:18 PM
 
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A sealed woofer (which is not the same thing as an acoustic suspension woofer) ...
Hi Dennis. Would you mind giving a quick explanation of what the difference is? I've naively thought the two were one in the same. Is "sealed" a specific type of what's broadly termed acoustic suspension?
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post #52 of 110 Old 07-21-2014, 09:29 PM
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Hi Dennis. Would you mind giving a quick explanation of what the difference is? I've naively thought the two were one in the same. Is "sealed" a specific type of what's broadly termed acoustic suspension?
I wouldn't mind knowing the difference myself. I thought they were the same as well.
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post #53 of 110 Old 07-21-2014, 09:54 PM
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Klipsch do not measure their sensitivity in a ordinary way, they use something like 1/4 space. They are playing spec games for sure, but their are not arbitrarily boosting their sensitivity rating, they are just grading their speakers in a weasily manner. Then again, many manufacturers over-rate their speaker's sensitivity by playing similar games. Unless the manufacturer states the conditions in which the sensitivity measurement was taken, the spec should be taken with a grain of salt.
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post #54 of 110 Old 07-21-2014, 10:48 PM
 
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Thanks for the links. I think many of these are also 8ohm instead of 4ohm common with the earlier models. Could be a factor.
No worries. The cynic in me suspects that the nominal impedances quoted are also subject to "specmanship" these days. Klipsch always seems to quote voltage sensitivity (SPL/2.83V/1m). So if the actual nominal impedance is closer to 4Ω, the power derived is doubled (2W) and as @89grand said, a 3dB on paper advantage is gained.

Some senior members around here are of the view that these sorts of shenanigans would never have happened under PK's watch.
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post #55 of 110 Old 07-22-2014, 06:36 AM
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I'm not a fan of most Polks, but they definitely should not sound anything like you describe. Something is either not adjusted right in the receiver, or like was mentioned earlier, the jumpers between the low and high frequency binding posts are loose or missing.
x2
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And a lot of people would think that the Polk 65T sound good compared to <$200 offerings.

So the OP doesn't like one set of speakers that some people would like, and then he likes the KB-15, which I suspect many AVSers would not like. Seems risky to buy any more speakers in this budget range until he's done some listening.
I am not saying that he needs to fall in love with the Polk 65t's HOWEVER he is complaining about a lack of highs. What is the reoccuring problem or issue people state with the Polk Monitors? Answer Brightness! And this guy is saying he feels that he isn't getting any highs. Logic would state that there is is an issue with his specific Monitor 65t's or receiver settings.

The KB-15's are a better buy for his room and preferences though
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post #56 of 110 Old 07-22-2014, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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x2

I am not saying that he needs to fall in love with the Polk 65t's HOWEVER he is complaining about a lack of highs. What is the reoccuring problem or issue people state with the Polk Monitors? Answer Brightness! And this guy is saying he feels that he isn't getting any highs. Logic would state that there is is an issue with his specific Monitor 65t's or receiver settings.

The KB-15's are a better buy for his room and preferences though
Have you heard the Polks before I probably got like 200 hours listening with them.

A song it really lacks in is Korn freaks on a leash.
And Huey Lewis Power of Love is another example it don't pick it up.
Also Star Wars movies the lazers firing it fails as well.

My mom's old cheap Sony's even pick up the highs better so it definitely is not the receivers problem if multiple other speakers are picking it up.

These are just poor man's Polk speakers, I can't believe Polk is releasing such junk with their name on it.
They have always been known for having great products now it's all about making money seems like.

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post #57 of 110 Old 07-22-2014, 08:15 AM
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Hi Dennis. Would you mind giving a quick explanation of what the difference is? I've naively thought the two were one in the same. Is "sealed" a specific type of what's broadly termed acoustic suspension?
I'm not sure there are any true acoustic suspension woofers being manufactured anymore. The acoustic suspension principle was invented by Acoustic Research in the late 50's, at a time when fairly low bass output was only possible using very large klunky drivers in huge baffles. Bass reflex theory had not been developed yet, ported speakers generally were just boom boxes. AR's approach was to use a very compliant (floppy) surround and spider, and to use the trapped air in the sealed box to provide most of the control over the woofer's motion. It was felt that the air provided more linear spring than the mechanical suspension elements of conventional woofers. If you come across an AR or KLH speaker from the 60's, take the woofer out and push it in, you'll be surprised at how loosely suspended it is. It feels nothing like the ported or sealed speakers currently in production. The acoustic suspension woofers were difficult to produce within tight tolerances, and advances in speaker design and tuning theory have obviated the need for the added complications of manufacturing the floppy drivers. Current sealed drivers simply have different parameters that lend themselves to the roll-off of a sealed enclosure. The trapped air in the cabinet plays a much smaller roll in controlling the motion of the driver.
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post #58 of 110 Old 07-22-2014, 08:40 AM
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I had some KLH 23's and yeah, that woofer had a really compliant suspension. I see what you're saying now, and drivers today have a much stiffer suspension. Although acoustic suspension and a sealed enclosure do seem the same, the woofers are different.
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post #59 of 110 Old 07-22-2014, 08:44 AM
 
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^ ^ Thanks Dennis, I appreciate the detailed explanation. I can sleep well tonight knowing I've learned something new today.
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post #60 of 110 Old 07-22-2014, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curtissp View Post
Have you heard the Polks before I probably got like 200 hours listening with them.

A song it really lacks in is Korn freaks on a leash.
And Huey Lewis Power of Love is another example it don't pick it up.
Also Star Wars movies the lazers firing it fails as well.

My mom's old cheap Sony's even pick up the highs better so it definitely is not the receivers problem if multiple other speakers are picking it up.

These are just poor man's Polk speakers, I can't believe Polk is releasing such junk with their name on it.
They have always been known for having great products now it's all about making money seems like.
Yes I have extensive experience with Polk's I never felt like they were lacking in high's
I started with Polk RM6750's, then to Polk Monitor 30's with CS1 center's, and then to my now Polk RTi4's and CSi3's.

I have listened extensively to the Monitor 40's/50's/70's at a friends place, also spent time with TSi's. When people say a speaker that is considered "bright" and you are experiencing a lack of highs something is wrong with the speakers or your set-up. People normally complain about Polks being too bright(too many highs( not lacking highs. Thats all.

You have broken speakers its not Polk releasing junk. I bet if you contacted their customer service they would get replacements out to you.

Enjoy the Klipsch KB-15's they are better suited for your needs. If you like their sound and they perform better they are what you should get.

Last edited by crazyrob425; 07-22-2014 at 09:03 AM.
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