500-600$ 5.1 Upgrade - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 32 Old 07-19-2014, 06:47 PM - Thread Starter
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500-600$ 5.1 Upgrade

Currently I use 4 dayton b652's and a dayton ccs 3b 3way center with a dayton sub 1200. I also use a yamaha rx v467 reciever 105w/ channel but I expect only 20-30w per channel with all 5 driven

I love my speakers and they perform much better than 25$ speakers


I was wondering what I would look for if I wanted to just upgrade my left front and center speakers? I was told I could upgrade my surrounds later but that the fronts make the biggest difference.

Basically what could I get for L, F, C for 500-600$? or what should I upgrade first? Used speakers are okay.

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post #2 of 32 Old 07-19-2014, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renji1337 View Post
Currently I use 4 dayton b652's and a dayton ccs 3b 3way center with a dayton sub 1200. I also use a yamaha rx v467 reciever 105w/ channel but I expect only 20-30w per channel with all 5 driven

I love my speakers and they perform much better than 25$ speakers


I was wondering what I would look for if I wanted to just upgrade my left front and center speakers? I was told I could upgrade my surrounds later but that the fronts make the biggest difference.

Basically what could I get for L, F, C for 500-600$? or what should I upgrade first? Used speakers are okay.
It depends what your using your system for. If its strictly movies then the center channel may be of more importance. Ive heard that in some movies something like 90% of the content plays through the center channel. For me personally though, I place the greatest importance on my mains(L&R). You are correct that generally the front 3 are the most important.

600 bucks can get you some pretty decent budget speakers. If possible it might be best to get all 3 front speakers from the same company so they can be timbre matched. If the center is significantly different than the L&R channel it can be distracting. If you provide some more info as to what your looking for I cant give you more detailed recommendations but off the top of my head these are some recommendations

Chane A1rx-c (mains)+ A2rx-c (center) Ive auditioned the A1's, they are a great speaker for movies, fairly warm sounding, very full bodied, no harshness.

Ascend Acoustics, I auditioned the CBM-170SE's, great speaker, although they are a bit ugly IMO. Very clear and detailed but they lack bass and can sound a bit thin.

EMP-Tek, the E5Bi's are widely acclaimed and are probably one of the best budget speakers on the block, although I have not personally heard them.

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post #3 of 32 Old 07-19-2014, 07:54 PM
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These will dance on the Dayton speakers

JBL L830
http://www.amazon.com/JBL-3-Way-6-In...words=jbl+l830

JBL LC1
http://www.amazon.com/JBL-Performanc...ywords=jbl+lc1

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post #4 of 32 Old 07-20-2014, 12:08 PM
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Polk RTi6's and Polk CSi5 center channel is another option for $435 shipped
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post #5 of 32 Old 07-25-2014, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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So far this is what I've been thinking on, I want speakers that are 89db efficient + as my speakers are 6 ohm 87 db efficient.


So far I could get the cambridge s70's with a s50 center and at a later date get s30's for surrounds.


I could get 2 jbl's and the jbl center that has been listed in this thread


I can get 2 Ascend CBM 170's with a HTM 340 Center and later move the cbm's to surrounds and get 2 more 340's for left and right.


These are all good options, with the jbls I could get a full surround sound right now if I wanted since there on amazon and I have 2000$ credit on amazon.


if there are any speakers near my price range or even a little higher what else is reccomended?
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post #6 of 32 Old 07-25-2014, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renji1337 View Post
So far this is what I've been thinking on, I want speakers that are 89db efficient + as my speakers are 6 ohm 87 db efficient.


So far I could get the cambridge s70's with a s50 center and at a later date get s30's for surrounds.


I could get 2 jbl's and the jbl center that has been listed in this thread


I can get 2 Ascend CBM 170's with a HTM 340 Center and later move the cbm's to surrounds and get 2 more 340's for left and right.


These are all good options, with the jbls I could get a full surround sound right now if I wanted since there on amazon and I have 2000$ credit on amazon.


if there are any speakers near my price range or even a little higher what else is reccomended?


I suggest that you get the Pioneer FS52 speakers, which run around $350 per pair, and the matching C-22, which is $100; Amazon has them.

For surrounds, the BS22 speakers are around $250 per pair, so the 5 speakers would be under $700 total.

They are much better-sounding IMO than anything else at the same price; very nice.

The Cambridge speakers are also pretty good.
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post #7 of 32 Old 07-25-2014, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post
I suggest that you get the Pioneer FS52 speakers, which run around $350 per pair, and the matching C-22, which is $100; Amazon has them.

For surrounds, the BS22 speakers are around $250 per pair, so the 5 speakers would be under $700 total.

They are much better-sounding IMO than anything else at the same price; very nice.

The Cambridge speakers are also pretty good.

hmm there 6 ohm speakers and only 87db sensitivty so would they be harder to drive than my current 6 ohm b652s which are also 87db?
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post #8 of 32 Old 07-25-2014, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renji1337 View Post
hmm there 6 ohm speakers and only 87db sensitivty so would they be harder to drive than my current 6 ohm b652s which are also 87db?

there's rave reviews for the cambridge s30 but I can't find anything on the s70/s50 center
The Pioneer speakers are not really hard to drive - their impedance holds up good.

However, I prefer the Cambridge S30 over the Pioneer towers and bookshelf speakers.

However, it is hard to over-look the JBL L830 and LC2 front channels.

Your call

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post #9 of 32 Old 07-25-2014, 06:40 PM
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I can get 2 Ascend CBM 170's with a HTM 340 Center and later move the cbm's to surrounds and get 2 more 340's for left and right.[/QUOTE)


this is a very nice option

i'm so laid back,i'm laid out
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post #10 of 32 Old 07-25-2014, 08:42 PM
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I'm in a similar boat. slightly different budget, but I'm including a sub in my budget so it's pretty close. I'm going to go audition these on Monday:

http://www.htd.com/Products/level-th...shelf-Speakers

http://www.htd.com/Products/level-th...hannel-Speaker

which come to $500 for LCR and get incredible reviews. I'm looking at subs, too, in the $500 range. Tons of options there, but the HTD ones seem decent too... we'll see what kind of package deal they can offer. Ultimately I'd like my rears to be voice matched as well, so these are on my ponder list:

http://www.htd.com/Products/level-th...REE-Surround_2

but I may very well end up with more bookshelf speakers to match the fronts (mains). Hope that helps. I have heard and read great things about the level three HTDs but I've not yet heard them in person. I'll be taking some of my favorite CDs and BDs with me to their showroom to check it all out. It doesn't hurt that they are 20 minutes from home
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post #11 of 32 Old 07-26-2014, 02:48 PM
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I'm looking at subs, too, in the $500 range. Tons of options there, but the HTD ones seem decent too
"Seem" being the operand word here. Specs can be misleading. HTD rates their Level Three sub as "22 Hz - 150 Hz." Notably, they do not include a variance amount. So they may not have usable output at 22 hz. Plus, the amp is only 150 watts. Compare this to the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus, rated 25Hz. -180Hz. +/- 2 dB, with a 350 watt amp, for $499 shipped. Since many AVS members have Outlaw subs and they have been measured, they are a known very good performer. Best to stick with recommendations from the AVS subwoofer forum unless you like to gamble you rmoney.

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post #12 of 32 Old 07-26-2014, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post
"Seem" being the operand word here. Specs can be misleading. HTD rates their Level Three sub as "22 Hz - 150 Hz." Notably, they do not include a variance amount. So they may not have usable output at 22 hz. Plus, the amp is only 150 watts. Compare this to the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus, rated 25Hz. -180Hz. +/- 2 dB, with a 350 watt amp, for $499 shipped. Since many AVS members have Outlaw subs and they have been measured, they are a known very good performer. Best to stick with recommendations from the AVS subwoofer forum unless you like to gamble you rmoney.
While I definitely appreciate the recommendation, I'm happily learning quite a bit about subwoofers (a lot of it from these forums) and will be making my purchase based on many factors. The Outlaw is currently top of my list, but I will be able to hear the HTD in person and they may (or very well may not) be willing to give me a package price that includes the sub. Those factors will enter into the equation... it *is* my money and my home theater, after all . I made the decision to buy the Energy sub hastily, and while it actually does sound pretty good it is likely going back. The next purchase will be much more thought out. Thanks again for lookin' out!
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post #13 of 32 Old 07-26-2014, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by djjoshuad View Post
While I definitely appreciate the recommendation, I'm happily learning quite a bit about subwoofers (a lot of it from these forums) and will be making my purchase based on many factors. The Outlaw is currently top of my list, but I will be able to hear the HTD in person and they may (or very well may not) be willing to give me a package price that includes the sub. Those factors will enter into the equation... it *is* my money and my home theater, after all . I made the decision to buy the Energy sub hastily, and while it actually does sound pretty good it is likely going back. The next purchase will be much more thought out. Thanks again for lookin' out!
You have made a claim that the HTD sub looks pretty good for a $500 sub in someone else's recommendation thread. The BIC PL-200 & NXG BAS-500 look just as good or better based on specs for $300 or less. And we have data about how those measure. Even if you like how the HTD sub sounds to you, while that could make you satisfied with it for your own uses, that does not make it a good price performer in the ~$500 range. Unless you are very familiar with how the 12" ported enthusiast class of subs like the Outlaw perform through first hand experience, you'll have no idea whether the HTD measures up to that level even after hearing it--well, unless you are ready to take extensive measurements.

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post #14 of 32 Old 07-27-2014, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post
I suggest that you get the Pioneer FS52 speakers, which run around $350 per pair, and the matching C-22, which is $100; Amazon has them.

For surrounds, the BS22 speakers are around $250 per pair, so the 5 speakers would be under $700 total.

They are much better-sounding IMO than anything else at the same price; very nice.

The Cambridge speakers are also pretty good.
You're way off on the prices. You can get the whole system on Amazon right now for $478. The BS22 are sold as pairs, which I think confused you ($129 for the pair, not a piece).

I have these speakers and highly recommend them, especially in this price range.
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post #15 of 32 Old 07-27-2014, 06:18 AM
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You're way off on the prices. You can get the whole system on Amazon right now for $478. The BS22 are sold as pairs, which I think confused you ($129 for the pair, not a piece).

I have these speakers and highly recommend them, especially in this price range.

The last time I checked my arithmetic, $478 is indeed under $700, so how is my statement incorrect?

I was purposely being rather general about the price because it has fluctuated quite a bit recently, and the various sellers vary a lot.

I'm glad to hear you like them.
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post #16 of 32 Old 07-27-2014, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post
The last time I checked my arithmetic, $478 is indeed under $700, so how is my statement incorrect?

I was purposely being rather general about the price because it has fluctuated quite a bit recently, and the various sellers vary a lot.

I'm glad to hear you like them.


Well, the BS22s are never $250 for the pair. I was just saying I figured you thought they were priced separately.


Also, if you were to tell someone "these speakers are less that $700" or "these speakers are less that $500", which would sound better to you. Both are technically correct, but if I had a budget of $500 and saw your post, I would have taken them off my shopping list.
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post #17 of 32 Old 07-27-2014, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post
You have made a claim that the HTD sub looks pretty good for a $500 sub in someone else's recommendation thread. The BIC PL-200 & NXG BAS-500 look just as good or better based on specs for $300 or less. And we have data about how those measure. Even if you like how the HTD sub sounds to you, while that could make you satisfied with it for your own uses, that does not make it a good price performer in the ~$500 range. Unless you are very familiar with how the 12" ported enthusiast class of subs like the Outlaw perform through first hand experience, you'll have no idea whether the HTD measures up to that level even after hearing it--well, unless you are ready to take extensive measurements.
I made no claim about performance, only how it appears. And all I said was it looks decent. I have never told anyone I have any level of expertise nor did I recommend anything to anyone. I simply shared what I am currently looking at with someone else who is currently looking at similar things. That sub may well turn out to be a complete POS and waste of money, I have no idea. Or, they might offer to throw it in with the rest of my purchase for free. Anything can happen...

I appreciate that you're trying to avoid someone taking bad advice, but there was no advice given in the first place. He wasn't even asking about subs. I added that part as a side-note since I was comparing my situation to his. We both want to spend about $500-600 not including the sub. The HTD level three stuff I linked does get pretty solid reviews here and other places, so IMO it's worth a look to see if it meets his needs.

I was only trying to help someone in the same boat I'm in. Expand his view of options, etc. Had I known my mere mention of a product I'm personally considering purchasing would lead down this road, I would have kept it to myself.
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post #18 of 32 Old 07-27-2014, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djjoshuad View Post
I made no claim about performance, only how it appears. And all I said was it looks decent.
You said,

Quote:
Originally Posted by djjoshuad View Post
I'm looking at subs, too, in the $500 range. Tons of options there, but the HTD ones seem decent too
"Seems decent" in a forum devoted to audio performance is going to be interpreted as decent in performance, not decent in looks.

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post #19 of 32 Old 07-27-2014, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djjoshuad View Post
I made no claim about performance, only how it appears. And all I said was it looks decent. I have never told anyone I have any level of expertise nor did I recommend anything to anyone. I simply shared what I am currently looking at with someone else who is currently looking at similar things. That sub may well turn out to be a complete POS and waste of money, I have no idea. Or, they might offer to throw it in with the rest of my purchase for free. Anything can happen...
That sub (HTD Level Three) looks decent to me too - it is a tranmission line sub and weighs 52 lbs.
A lot of HTD owners are quite happy with that sub.

If you buy a complete system with speakers and sub - HTD tends to give a discount. However, they
may still give you a discount for a 5.0 package.

You are going there to listen, so check it all out - it will come down to how it all sounds to you, and
what will float your boat. The only one you have to please is you.

With a complete package deal - I for sure would look at this sub over the likes of NXG and Bic, plus over
most subs sold at Best Buy.

Enjoy the adventure, it can be fun.

However, if I was buying from separate sources - then I would focus on the likes of the Outlaw subs.
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post #20 of 32 Old 07-27-2014, 10:33 PM
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So with $2K credit on amazon, does it have to be through the Amazon.LLC? Or can you buy anything on amazon? Because if it's the second, that sure opens up the possibilities!
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post #21 of 32 Old 07-27-2014, 11:11 PM
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"Seems decent" in a forum devoted to audio performance is going to be interpreted as decent in performance, not decent in looks.
I wasn't referring to looks. I said it "seems decent" meaning that it looks like it might offer decent performance. If someone interprets that to mean that I have measured it and compared those measurements against other known measurements, then that is on them.

I don't know why you have such an issue with what I wrote, but this clearly isn't going anywhere. You argue that I did something wrong, but I hold that I did not. You think I was recommending something, but I was simply mentioning it. We're obviously not going to reach agreement. How about we just leave it at that and let this thread get back to what it was intended for?
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post #22 of 32 Old 07-28-2014, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djjoshuad View Post
I wasn't referring to looks. I said it "seems decent" meaning that it looks like it might offer decent performance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by djjoshuad View Post
I made no claim about performance, only how it appears.
Whatever

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post #23 of 32 Old 07-28-2014, 11:43 AM
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Whatever
how its specs "appear" on paper, not the aesthetics of the sub itself. All I said was that it "seems decent" - man, you really, really want to find a way to make that an evil, misleading statement... but it never was anything of the sort. I've attempted to clear up my intent, I'm sorry you read it differently. At this point, this conversation has moved so far into the ridiculous... I guess a brick wall just won't ever listen, no matter how hard you try to explain something. Best of luck to you.
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post #24 of 32 Old 07-28-2014, 12:32 PM
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how its specs "appear" on paper, not the aesthetics of the sub itself.
And I already replied to that in my very first response about this as to why that is a problem. You are going in circles. You just bought the ESW-C10 about a week ago (that was a great buy), and now you are offering opinions on subwoofer specs? You still have a lot to learn just by the fact that you made that statement about the HTD sub, regardless of exactly how you meant it. The first lesson to learn is how useless the manufacturer specs can be for determining sub quality. It doesn't appear, look, or seem anything except suspect as a good value since they don't bother to list the frequency response in a +/- rating, just 22 Hz - 150 Hz. That is a BIG indicator that the tuning on the sub is not good or they would provide that information since it is an industry standard among good Internet speaker/subwoofer vendors. That, and manufacturers often exaggerate their specs quite a bit when it comes to subs.

Now, you don't have to agree with me, but get over it and stop arguing about the semantics of what you said. Talk about the sub if you want. Validate your claim that it looks/seems/appears (whatever) good to you. I am happy to discuss subwoofer characteristics if you like.

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post #25 of 32 Old 07-28-2014, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by djjoshuad View Post
how its specs "appear" on paper, not the aesthetics of the sub itself. All I said was that it "seems decent"
It does look decent for build, appearance and spec wise - and they do spec it at 22 hz -3db
It is found under More Info and the spec is at the bottom - and it even has a 3" voice coil.

A 3" diameter voice coil with multiple winding layers works together with a powerful neodymium magnet to keep the moving cone fast and accurate. While most of today's subwoofers use a ferrite magnet, we use neodyimium. Neodymium is significantly more expensive than ferrite which is why most manufacturers only use neodymium with smaller drivers, such as tweeters. Neodymium is used because it is 7 times more powerful than ferrite. This allows us to place the strength of the magnet in closer proximity to the voice coil. The result is a very fast moving driver that is extremely accurate and never muddy or boomy. The 12" long-throw, reinforced doped cone woofer extends down to 22 Hz at -3dB.

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post #26 of 32 Old 07-28-2014, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by charmerci View Post
So with $2K credit on amazon, does it have to be through the Amazon.LLC? Or can you buy anything on amazon? Because if it's the second, that sure opens up the possibilities!
Hate to speak for the OP, but if it is in gift card balance it can be applied toward third party sellers too.
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post #27 of 32 Old 07-28-2014, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post
It does look decent for build, appearance and spec wise - and they do spec it at 22 hz -3db
It is found under More Info and the spec is at the bottom - and it even has a 3" voice coil.

A 3" diameter voice coil with multiple winding layers works together with a powerful neodymium magnet to keep the moving cone fast and accurate. While most of today's subwoofers use a ferrite magnet, we use neodyimium. Neodymium is significantly more expensive than ferrite which is why most manufacturers only use neodymium with smaller drivers, such as tweeters. Neodymium is used because it is 7 times more powerful than ferrite. This allows us to place the strength of the magnet in closer proximity to the voice coil. The result is a very fast moving driver that is extremely accurate and never muddy or boomy. The 12" long-throw, reinforced doped cone woofer extends down to 22 Hz at -3dB.
That's good to know. I wonder didn't include this with the primary specs? If it does measure that way, not bad.

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post #28 of 32 Old 07-28-2014, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I apparently can use It on anything on amazon I guess as I bought some college books today that were 3rd party.
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post #29 of 32 Old 07-29-2014, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I just realized I could also straight up get 5x CBM 170 se's from ascend from someone on avsforum for 500$ or so. how would that fair?
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post #30 of 32 Old 07-29-2014, 03:03 PM
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That would be a nice setup. As long as they are the SE, and the older non-SE version, seems like a good price to me.

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