Dolby Atmos Demo at Pioneer - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 82 Old 07-31-2014, 10:36 AM
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how would this system work with a pitched ceiling? the ceiling in my room is pitched left to right, the left being 8' the right 13'
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post #32 of 82 Old 07-31-2014, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suntan View Post
Perhaps not a valid question for this thread, as it seems this is more a review of these particular speakers, but I am interested to know your (or anyone's) take on Atmos vs. the well treated room.

Basically, if Joe 6 Pack could spend a couple of grand replacing his nice 5.2/7.2 system with all the speakers/AVRs needed for Atmos, or he could spend the same coin on poperly treating his room for music or movies, which would provide better returns?

Personally, I usually find myself sitting in someone's living room thinking to myself how poorly the system is setup and how much the room is limiting the fancy, expensive speakers they are trying to show off. Is Atmos by itself going to significantly improve/overcome this?

-Suntan
A well-treated room is always a good thing, regardless of the type of sound system, so I'd probably recommend doing that first. Atmos provides a particular kind of movie-sound experience, which is wonderful, but it probably wouldn't be as wonderful in a poor acoustic environment.
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post #33 of 82 Old 07-31-2014, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by olletsoc View Post
how would this system work with a pitched ceiling? the ceiling in my room is pitched left to right, the left being 8' the right 13'
It wouldn't work so well, I'm afraid. This is a limitation of the upfiring approach.

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post #34 of 82 Old 07-31-2014, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
It wouldn't work so well, I'm afraid. This is a limitation of the upfiring approach.
That's what I'd have assumed. thanks
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post #35 of 82 Old 07-31-2014, 11:14 AM
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When is the next public demo? I am interested in attending.
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post #36 of 82 Old 07-31-2014, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
These observations could well have been due to the recordings rather than the speakers, especially since I didn't hear upper-bass congestion or harshness on everything we listened to.
Thanks - Your comments make me even more confident in these speakers (and Andrew) as I have some very high hopes for using these as reasonably priced "go to" speaker for a number of my projects, even where the top speakers can not be used because of sloped ceilings.

Thank you for your review and additional comments. Keep them coming!!!
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post #37 of 82 Old 07-31-2014, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
It wouldn't work so well, I'm afraid. This is a limitation of the upfiring approach.
I am curious if you think it "may" work somewhat if it were a shallow slope, with one of my projects being only a 2 foot difference between top and bottom over a distance of some 12 feet.

If instead the speaker location could be rotated 90 degrees and the slope were instead increasing away from the LCR speakers (8 feet at speaker position and 10 feet at back wall over a 12 foot total distance), might this possibly work?

I realize that until these speakers are out and more information is released by Dolby we are just guessing. But I and many others out here are anxious for these "Andrew" speakers and the possibilities of Atmos.

Thanks
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post #38 of 82 Old 07-31-2014, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by drewTT View Post
When is the next public demo? I am interested in attending.
Are you going to CEDIA? That's the next major demonstration as far as I know.

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post #39 of 82 Old 07-31-2014, 12:44 PM
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Of course, with upfiring speakers, the ceiling can't have any acoustic treatment; it must be reflective.)
I'm guessing those with a drop ceiling (like myself) using fibreglass panels would not be able to use those speakers. Then again, it would be dead easy to install downward firing speakers into the drop ceiling anyway, so...

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post #40 of 82 Old 07-31-2014, 01:09 PM
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Scott,

Thanks for the review. I also have a question similar to one you answered. My Theater Room has a cathedral ceiling, where the center is about 4' taller than than each side of room. Would the Atmos system not be conducive to this type of ceiling?
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post #41 of 82 Old 07-31-2014, 01:59 PM
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Correct me if I'm missing something, but I've seen atmos enabled amps with only 5.1/7.1 outputs. How do you connect another 4 outs?

Can we see more than theory pictures and some photos of the amp outputs?

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post #42 of 82 Old 07-31-2014, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewTT View Post
When is the next public demo? I am interested in attending.
Hopefully in the next couple weeks Pioneer will have their open house. They're in Long Beach (about 30 miles east of you, off the 91 fwy). Chis said they would be demonstrating Atmos, letting us compare on-ceiling vs up-firing speakers. Keep your eye on the Local Meets section of this forum for Chris' announcement/thread.

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post #43 of 82 Old 07-31-2014, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
*** He said nothing about ceiling-mounted speakers other than their placement 3 feet behind and ahead of the listening position (a single row of seating). ***
That seems to rule out ceiling mounted Atmos speakers in any room with a ceiling fan, unless the seating position is in an awful place such as up against a wall.

Any thoughts on how the upfiring Atmos speakers would work in a room the size of Pioneer's demo room with a central ceiling fan and a listening position about 2/3 back?
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post #44 of 82 Old 07-31-2014, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by <^..^>Smokey Joe View Post
Correct me if I'm missing something, but I've seen atmos enabled amps with only 5.1/7.1 outputs. How do you connect another 4 outs?

Can we see more than theory pictures and some photos of the amp outputs?
Well, the Pioneer AVRs have nine channels of amplification for a 5.1.4 setup, while some of the Onkyo AVRs have 11 channels of amplification for a 7.1.4 setup.

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post #45 of 82 Old 07-31-2014, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
That seems to rule out ceiling mounted Atmos speakers in any room with a ceiling fan, unless the seating position is in an awful place such as up against a wall.

Any thoughts on how the upfiring Atmos speakers would work in a room the size of Pioneer's demo room with a central ceiling fan and a listening position about 2/3 back?


Not necessarily, my ceiling fan is right above me and that could work just fine.







There is the issue of the sound panels but I think I could work it out, just use a longer ceiling mount in between the panels.



However, I haven't seen anything about what we are supposed to do if we have multiple rows. 3 feet each way from the sweet spot still or does that change things? I assume it does. Would I want to put the rear ceiling speakers behind the back row?




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post #46 of 82 Old 07-31-2014, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
That seems to rule out ceiling mounted Atmos speakers in any room with a ceiling fan, unless the seating position is in an awful place such as up against a wall.

Any thoughts on how the upfiring Atmos speakers would work in a room the size of Pioneer's demo room with a central ceiling fan and a listening position about 2/3 back?
I suspect a ceiling fan would be a problem, creating some sort of modulation to the reflected sound. Probably not the best situation for Atmos, even ceiling-mounted speakers.

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post #47 of 82 Old 07-31-2014, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
I suspect a ceiling fan would be a problem, creating some sort of modulation to the reflected sound. Probably not the best situation for Atmos, even ceiling-mounted speakers.


Bummer!!

However, I have a ceiling hugger design so the blades are only 10 inches or so from the ceiling. I would think that if I had speakers mounted to the ceiling that hung down a ways it wouldn't be much of an issue... hopefully?
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post #48 of 82 Old 07-31-2014, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
I suspect a ceiling fan would be a problem, creating some sort of modulation to the reflected sound. Probably not the best situation for Atmos, even ceiling-mounted speakers.
I hope you're wrong, at least in the typical situation of a seating position somewhere between 1/3 and 2/3 between the front and rear wall, with an appropriate-sized ceiling fan centered in the room. (For a room the size of the Pio demo space, a 52" or 54" diameter fan would be appropriate.)

If your hunch is true, then Atmos is guaranteed to be an utter failure in the marketplace. Consider how many rooms in the US and elsewhere have ceiling fans. Heck, in our house alone we have 6 of them. Seven if you count the porch!

Entertainment technology needs to fit into people's actual lives to be successful. Technology that requires heroic contortions usually ends up in a dustbin.

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post #49 of 82 Old 07-31-2014, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
I hope you're wrong, at least in the typical situation of a seating position somewhere between 1/3 and 2/3 between the front and rear wall, with an appropriate-sized ceiling fan centered in the room. (For a room the size of the Pio demo space, a 52" or 54" diameter fan would be appropriate.)

If your hunch is true, then Atmos is guaranteed to be an utter failure in the marketplace. Consider how many rooms in the US and elsewhere have ceiling fans. Heck, in our house alone we have 6 of them. Seven if you count the porch!

Entertainment technology needs to fit into people's actual lives to be successful. Technology that requires heroic contortions usually ends up in a dustbin.
Do you really think the majority of these people buying HTIB atmos speakers are going to be worrying about their ceiling fan?

Ceiling fans, the death of Atmos. Lol
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post #50 of 82 Old 07-31-2014, 08:43 PM
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I'm dying to hear a demo of this, because I'd like to implement it in our game engine. However, the current crop of receivers are a complete rippoff, in my estimation. Most only allow 5.1.2 or 5.1.4 or 7.1.2, and that's for upwards of 500, 1200, 1600, 2 grand. What a rip off. I mean, what you really need to do is have these receivers be daisy-chain-able so that you can process 5.2.5 or 7.2.7 atmos setups, which would be proper. As I see it now, the first year of Atmos is the bleeding edge, and receiver manufacturers are going to seriously price gouge people.

I'll pass in 2014. Maybe in 2015 I'll get a decent receiver that has pre-outs for 11.2 for less than 2 grand. I can't rationally justify even if Atmos was great, the risk of buying these receivers with the promise of a firmware update (Onkyo / Pioneer), of unknown quality / performance / durability / psycho-acoustic rendering of 3D audio. I totally believe in 3D audio, but not at these ridiculous prices, when even then they don't provide the kinds of setups that I'd like (e.g. 2 center channels, or 3 front, 3 rear, 3 front height, three rear height for a 12.2 setup). Why do they place arbitrary limits? I look forward to a company like Oppo releasing a Bluray UHD player that will output 9.2 or 11.2 at 1/2 the price of these expensive receivers and give us the ability to use active speakers or separates for a much better overall experience.
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post #51 of 82 Old 07-31-2014, 11:02 PM
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Scott,

Did Chris or Andrew mention anything about the upcoming add-on modules?

Also, not trying to be a pedant, but you may want to double check your math in the system prices. Based off the prices you quoted it looks like a 5.1.4 system with floorstanders upfront should cost $3,150 ( $700 (x2) + $400 + $750 + $600 = 2x front floorstanders (priced each) + center + stand-mount surrounds + sub). And for a 5.0 system using two pair of stand-mounts $1,900 ($750 (x2) + $400 = stand-mount (2 pr) + center). Unless some kind of package pricing is offered that is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Overall, I'm very impressed with Pioneer's Atmos-enabled speakers, which sound wonderful—as they should, since they are quite a bit more expensive than the company's more budget-oriented yet highly regarded Andrew Jones-designed speakers. The SP-EFS73 floorstanders are $700 each, the SP-EBS73-LR bookshelves are $750/pair, the SP-EC73 center-channel is $400, and the SW-E10 subwoofer is $600, so a 5.1.4 system with floorstanders in front will set you back $2400, or you could go with four bookshelf models in the front and rear for $1750.


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Originally Posted by <^..^>Smokey Joe View Post
Correct me if I'm missing something, but I've seen atmos enabled amps with only 5.1/7.1 outputs. How do you connect another 4 outs?

Can we see more than theory pictures and some photos of the amp outputs?
No offense, but I believe you are wrong. Atmos requires overhead or Atmos-enabled speakers and at least of the major Japanese brands that have confirmed AVR's w/Atmos, none offer anything less than 5.1.2, so nothing with a 5.1. As for 7.1, that could be an option if someone were to buy an AtmosAVR and just run 7.1, but then no Atmos.


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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
I'm dying to hear a demo of this, because I'd like to implement it in our game engine. However, the current crop of receivers are a complete rippoff, in my estimation. Most only allow 5.1.2 or 5.1.4 or 7.1.2, and that's for upwards of 500, 1200, 1600, 2 grand. What a rip off. I mean, what you really need to do is have these receivers be daisy-chain-able so that you can process 5.2.5 or 7.2.7 atmos setups, which would be proper. As I see it now, the first year of Atmos is the bleeding edge, and receiver manufacturers are going to seriously price gouge people.

I'll pass in 2014. Maybe in 2015 I'll get a decent receiver that has pre-outs for 11.2 for less than 2 grand. I can't rationally justify even if Atmos was great, the risk of buying these receivers with the promise of a firmware update (Onkyo / Pioneer), of unknown quality / performance / durability / psycho-acoustic rendering of 3D audio. I totally believe in 3D audio, but not at these ridiculous prices, when even then they don't provide the kinds of setups that I'd like (e.g. 2 center channels, or 3 front, 3 rear, 3 front height, three rear height for a 12.2 setup). Why do they place arbitrary limits? I look forward to a company like Oppo releasing a Bluray UHD player that will output 9.2 or 11.2 at 1/2 the price of these expensive receivers and give us the ability to use active speakers or separates for a much better overall experience.
Entirely your prerogative to adopt whenever you may choose, but I disagree with these initial AVR's being a "ripoff." Most of these new AVR's are coming in an or near existing price points in their respective companies product lines. This is more of an add on feature with maybe a small premium where the brands already have solid options. If you are looking at something like the Denon AVR-X4100W for instance, you are paying $100 more than last years model, and you gain not only Atmos but built in Bluetooth and Wifi, hardly a "ripoff." The same can be said for the new AVR's from Pioneer, Yamaha, Marantz, and the other Denon models. Further, new technology normally comes at a premium compared to legacy equipment that has gone through many additional generations, already amortized the R&D costs, and experience economies of scale from a built in market. I commend the AV industry for not gouging for Atmos and think the price of the AVR's is pretty reasonable considering all of the above.

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post #52 of 82 Old 08-01-2014, 09:23 AM
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"so Dolby came up with an alternative—upward-firing speakers sitting on top of the front and surround left and right speakers that reflect their sound from the ceiling, creating the same effect."

Will suitable upward-firing floor-standing or 'stand-mounted' speakers be available as standalone units, or only integrated on top of the bodies of traditional designs?
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post #53 of 82 Old 08-01-2014, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by <^..^>Smokey Joe View Post
Correct me if I'm missing something, but I've seen atmos enabled amps with only 5.1/7.1 outputs. How do you connect another 4 outs?

Can we see more than theory pictures and some photos of the amp outputs?
The Pioneer USA website has photos that show all the outputs. See below:

the SC-87

The SC-89
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post #54 of 82 Old 08-01-2014, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by dabotsonline View Post
"so Dolby came up with an alternative—upward-firing speakers sitting on top of the front and surround left and right speakers that reflect their sound from the ceiling, creating the same effect."

Will suitable upward-firing floor-standing or 'stand-mounted' speakers be available as standalone units, or only integrated on top of the bodies of traditional designs?
It appears that this will be possible with ceiling-mounted speakers:

Quote:
... the AVID System 5 was featured with a complete Dolby #ATMOS system also comprising Genelec monitors as attached pictures shows.


https://www.facebook.com/Genelec/pho...2224901523673/

https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/...13867719_o.jpg
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post #55 of 82 Old 08-01-2014, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post
Scott,

Did Chris or Andrew mention anything about the upcoming add-on modules?

Also, not trying to be a pedant, but you may want to double check your math in the system prices. Based off the prices you quoted it looks like a 5.1.4 system with floorstanders upfront should cost $3,150 ( $700 (x2) + $400 + $750 + $600 = 2x front floorstanders (priced each) + center + stand-mount surrounds + sub). And for a 5.0 system using two pair of stand-mounts $1,900 ($750 (x2) + $400 = stand-mount (2 pr) + center). Unless some kind of package pricing is offered that is.
No, they said nothing about add-on modules, though I know other companies are working on that. And you're entirely right about my miscalculation; thanks for catching that! It's been corrected in the OP.

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post #56 of 82 Old 08-01-2014, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dabotsonline View Post
"so Dolby came up with an alternative—upward-firing speakers sitting on top of the front and surround left and right speakers that reflect their sound from the ceiling, creating the same effect."

Will suitable upward-firing floor-standing or 'stand-mounted' speakers be available as standalone units, or only integrated on top of the bodies of traditional designs?
Some companies are working on add-on modules with upfiring speakers that you can simply place on top of your existing speakers (assuming they have a flat top).

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post #57 of 82 Old 08-01-2014, 01:26 PM
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Hi Scott,

As I have read Onkyo claims that the minimum requirement for a Dolby Atmos setup is 5.1.2, i.e. only two front ceiling or up-firing speakers are needed. How is that supposed to work with "objects" in our rooms without rear ceiling or up-firing speakers?

Dolby Atmos Configuration Options with a 7 Channel Receiver
5.1.2 Configuration - 5.1 layout with one pair in-ceiling height speakers
5.1.2 Configuration - 5.1 layout including Dolby Atmos-enabled front speakers or add-on speaker modules.

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post #58 of 82 Old 08-01-2014, 01:38 PM
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Do the side or rear surrounds in an existing setup need to be re-positioned (angle/Height)
to add atmos 7.1.2 or 7.1.4?

My setup:
Side surrounds at 110, 5'
Rear surrounds at 140, 5'
Ceiling height 7'11"

Thanks
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post #59 of 82 Old 08-01-2014, 01:49 PM
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Do the side or rear surrounds in an existing setup need to be re-positioned (angle/Height) to add atmos 7.1.2 or 7.1.4?
No. But looking at your speaker angles, I would move the 2 side speakers directly to the sides or slightly forward of your listening area in order to have some meaningful separation between the sides and rears.

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post #60 of 82 Old 08-02-2014, 03:14 AM
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Quote:
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Looks like painter's tape to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
It is painter's tape used to re-align the speaker stands quickly to the same calibrated position after being moved.
Ha - I also use painters tape exactly same reason, I put mine in back of the speaker with a mark on it to align it to center and nobody but me can really see it then...minor mystery solved.
Yea - after moving them literally 20-30 times one does use painters tape for that purpose.
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