Best in ceiling speakers for Atmos? - Page 68 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2011 of 2588 Old 11-02-2016, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mijon61 View Post
I have Paradigm Studio 100 fronts, CC690 center, ADP590 surrounds, Studio 20 backs, and Sub 1. Looking for suggestions for 4 in ceiling speakers. Talked to my local hifi place who suggested Paradigm CI Elite E65-R or CI Elite E80-R. Are there other speakers that would match my particular sound?
I'm sure they would be just fine, but I was told by an Athem/Paradigm rep. that the Elites match with the Prestige line.

I would advise contacting Paradigm directly for their input.
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post #2012 of 2588 Old 11-02-2016, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonas2 View Post
I'm sure they would be just fine, but I was told by an Athem/Paradigm rep. that the Elites match with the Prestige line.

I would advise contacting Paradigm directly for their input.
I had that wrong. They recommended the CI Pro P65-R and CI Pro P80-R. Contacting Paradigm is a good path.
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post #2013 of 2588 Old 11-02-2016, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mijon61 View Post
I had that wrong. They recommended the CI Pro P65-R and CI Pro P80-R. Contacting Paradigm is a good path.
Yeah, the Pro sounds more appropriate! Let us know what Paradigm says!
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post #2014 of 2588 Old 11-05-2016, 12:35 AM
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I have read a lot of this thread and other threads on AVS trying to wrap my head around Atmos. I am attempting to put in my first Atmos setup. The last pieces I need are the front and rear (rear probably next summer) height channels. I am looking to order a set of in ceiling speakers for the front height over the weekend. Would a pair of the B&W CCM684's be a good fit? Also, am I right to get the front height channels before the rears? Thanks for the help, guys. My equipment:

L & R: B&W N802
C: B&W HTM1
Sides: B&W SCMS
Rears: B&W N804

Processor: McIntosh MX122
Amps: McIntosh MC452 (fronts) & MC207
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post #2015 of 2588 Old 11-05-2016, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by AuburnM5 View Post
I have read a lot of this thread and other threads on AVS trying to wrap my head around Atmos. I am attempting to put in my first Atmos setup. The last pieces I need are the front and rear (rear probably next summer) height channels. I am looking to order a set of in ceiling speakers for the front height over the weekend. Would a pair of the B&W CCM684's be a good fit? Also, am I right to get the front height channels before the rears?
I'm sure they'd be fine, I don't know much about B&Ws (other than being quite impressed with the Diamond D3 release and a demo I attended last year ). As I recommended above to our Paradigm friend, I would contact B&W and seek their recommendation on which of their architecturals would be the best match/blend for your current set up.
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post #2016 of 2588 Old 11-06-2016, 03:47 AM
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Throwing in my 2 cents. Monitor Audio's new CP (controlled performance) line are excellent, and are enclosed. They are voice matched to the Silver series.

I'm running CP-CT380's for surrounds which is an 8" c-cam RST woofer (same one used in the highly regarded Silver 10's) and a 1" gold c-cam tweeter.

For Atmos I would likely go with CP-CT260 as the 380's are overkill. The 260's are 6" and use the non-RST woofer but the same tweeter the 380's have. They also have an aimable tweeter.

There is also a CP-CT380-IDC which is a 3-way with aimable mid/tweeter. The entire CP line-up is killer. If you want to spend even less there is also the CP-CT150's which I'm sure would also be adequate for Atmos. I personally have such a hard time convincing myself to buyer cheaper speakers, I'm more inclined to go overkill for fear that I might be missing something. I'm sure many can relate!

To the guy who said "no one should be spending more than $100 a pop on ceiling speakers" probably shouldn't bother looking into Monitor.

I highly recommend calling Andy @ Saturday Audio in Chicago if your're looking for Monitor Audio speakers. Great pricing, great service, and 90 day return policy.

A lot of their speakers have very similar model numbers. Make sure it starts with CP-CT if you want ceiling speakers that are enclosed.
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post #2017 of 2588 Old 11-06-2016, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by OneStepAhead View Post
Throwing in my 2 cents. Monitor Audio's new CP (controlled performance) line are excellent, and are enclosed. They are voice matched to the Silver series.

I'm running CP-CT380's for surrounds which is an 8" c-cam RST woofer (same one used in the highly regarded Silver 10's) and a 1" gold c-cam tweeter.

For Atmos I would likely go with CP-CT260 as the 380's are overkill. The 260's are 6" and use the non-RST woofer but the same tweeter the 380's have. They also have an aimable tweeter.

There is also a CP-CT380-IDC which is a 3-way with aimable mid/tweeter. The entire CP line-up is killer. If you want to spend even less there is also the CP-CT150's which I'm sure would also be adequate for Atmos. I personally have such a hard time convincing myself to buyer cheaper speakers, I'm more inclined to go overkill for fear that I might be missing something. I'm sure many can relate!

To the guy who said "no one should be spending more than $100 a pop on ceiling speakers" probably shouldn't bother looking into Monitor.

I highly recommend calling Andy @ Saturday Audio in Chicago if your're looking for Monitor Audio speakers. Great pricing, great service, and 90 day return policy.

A lot of their speakers have very similar model numbers. Make sure it starts with CP-CT if you want ceiling speakers that are enclosed.
Just curious, what kind of price range would somebody be looking at for the speakers you've mentioned?
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post #2018 of 2588 Old 11-07-2016, 02:22 AM
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Just curious, what kind of price range would somebody be looking at for the speakers you've mentioned?
$200 to $450 a speaker depending on which model.

Their flagship ceiling speaker is the CP-CT380IDC which lists for $899 a speaker, but there is a seller on eBay with them for $900 a PAIR. So it goes down from there.

For Atmos, it's recommend to use the IDC speakers to properly aim the sound. IDC has aimable tweeter and mid to 18 degrees. The other models let you aim the tweeter only and to 15 degrees.
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post #2019 of 2588 Old 11-07-2016, 10:28 AM
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Yeah, the Pro sounds more appropriate! Let us know what Paradigm says!
I called Paradigm today and had a long discussion with them. They asked a lot of questions about room size, where my seating was, the number of and kind of subs, what percentage of use is music and how much movies. Their recommended ceiling speakers are CI Pro P65-R or P80-R. For my size room (13 x 20) he thought the P65-R was enough since I have the Sub 1 and the tweeters are the same in both. Went kinda in depth on how Atmos works, differences of sound if reflected or direct, a lot else. Shoulda took notes.
I asked 2 specific questions and got answers that some in this thread seemed to have different opinions on. Hopefully I explain it correctly.

1. I have an 8ft popcorn ceiling finish. Is that bad for relecting Atmos? Answer was no. It helps disperse the sound in a wider pattern. A flat ceiling sounds great if you're in the reflected cone of sound which is rather narrow. Popcorn widens it.
2. Should I install a box or enclosure above the in ceiling speaker? Answer was no unless it was for fire rating.
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post #2020 of 2588 Old 11-07-2016, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by OneStepAhead View Post
$200 to $450 a speaker depending on which model.

Their flagship ceiling speaker is the CP-CT380IDC which lists for $899 a speaker, but there is a seller on eBay with them for $900 a PAIR. So it goes down from there.

For Atmos, it's recommend to use the IDC speakers to properly aim the sound. IDC has aimable tweeter and mid to 18 degrees. The other models let you aim the tweeter only and to 15 degrees.
Cool, thanks for that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mijon61 View Post
I called Paradigm today and had a long discussion with them. They asked a lot of questions about room size, where my seating was, the number of and kind of subs, what percentage of use is music and how much movies. Their recommended ceiling speakers are CI Pro P65-R or P80-R. For my size room (13 x 20) he thought the P65-R was enough since I have the Sub 1 and the tweeters are the same in both. Went kinda in depth on how Atmos works, differences of sound if reflected or direct, a lot else. Shoulda took notes.
I asked 2 specific questions and got answers that some in this thread seemed to have different opinions on. Hopefully I explain it correctly.

1. I have an 8ft popcorn ceiling finish. Is that bad for relecting Atmos? Answer was no. It helps disperse the sound in a wider pattern. A flat ceiling sounds great if you're in the reflected cone of sound which is rather narrow. Popcorn widens it.
2. Should I install a box or enclosure above the in ceiling speaker? Answer was no unless it was for fire rating.
Yeah, that recommendation makes sense on the CI Pro!

Question #1 - Good question. One that I would defer to those that have tried it, or Dolby Labs afa popcorn ceilings. Though the prevailing thought seems to be direct is better than reflected, like in upfiring speakers so should not be an issue for you since you're doing in-ceilings.

Question #2 - This is experimental in my opinion. The speakers are designed to not need them (what is referred to as infinite baffle), but depending on your local building codes may require them for fire safety. People do it both ways, and I'd expect back boxes to reinforce the sound to some degree and help to keep it from affecting spaces above if there are any. You might want to experiment, maybe others can chime in here on this topic. If you have a "dirty" attic space, or fluffy insulation, you might want to at least cover the speaker installs in some plastic sheeting just to keep debris off of them. (RSL recommended this to me.).
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post #2021 of 2588 Old 11-07-2016, 01:45 PM
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Question #1 - Good question. One that I would defer to those that have tried it, or Dolby Labs afa popcorn ceilings. Though the prevailing thought seems to be direct is better than reflected, like in upfiring speakers so should not be an issue for you since you're doing in-ceilings.

According to the Paradigm tech Dolby created the reflecting technology to satisfy people who didn't want to tear into their ceiling. Dolby's intent was in ceiling or on ceiling speakers.

Question #2 - This is experimental in my opinion. The speakers are designed to not need them (what is referred to as infinite baffle), but depending on your local building codes may require them for fire safety. People do it both ways, and I'd expect back boxes to reinforce the sound to some degree and help to keep it from affecting spaces above if there are any. You might want to experiment, maybe others can chime in here on this topic. If you have a "dirty" attic space, or fluffy insulation, you might want to at least cover the speaker installs in some plastic sheeting just to keep debris off of them. (RSL recommended this to me.).[/QUOTE]

He did talk about the boxes redirecting sound back into the room below but the amount was not needed nor noticeable. A poster in the Paradigm thread stated his un-boxed speakers sound carried into the attic space and into a room that is adjacent to the attic. Do not know if it is apples to apples but when I enclosed the speakers in my car the low frequencies increased. Got boomy. I didn't like it and removed the enclosure. Since the ceiling speakers bass are cut off about 150Hz there may not be a difference.
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post #2022 of 2588 Old 11-07-2016, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mijon61 View Post
According to the Paradigm tech Dolby created the reflecting technology to satisfy people who didn't want to tear into their ceiling. Dolby's intent was in ceiling or on ceiling speakers.


Bingo!

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Originally Posted by mijon61 View Post
He did talk about the boxes redirecting sound back into the room below but the amount was not needed nor noticeable. A poster in the Paradigm thread stated his un-boxed speakers sound carried into the attic space and into a room that is adjacent to the attic. Do not know if it is apples to apples but when I enclosed the speakers in my car the low frequencies increased. Got boomy. I didn't like it and removed the enclosure. Since the ceiling speakers bass are cut off about 150Hz there may not be a difference.


Hence, the experimental. I'm at least fortunate in that I have nothing above me to disturb! Unfortunately, due to positioning above, no factory back box will work for me, anything I do will be of my own making, but I can imagine I will experiment at some point since attic access is pretty easy for me. Got a lot working against and for me at the same time.
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post #2023 of 2588 Old 11-07-2016, 09:29 PM
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Hence, the experimental. I'm at least fortunate in that I have nothing above me to disturb! Unfortunately, due to positioning above, no factory back box will work for me, anything I do will be of my own making, but I can imagine I will experiment at some point since attic access is pretty easy for me. Got a lot working against and for me at the same time. [/QUOTE]

There was a short discussion about back boxes. It is post 33625 if I screwed the link up. Paradigm Owners Thread
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post #2024 of 2588 Old 11-08-2016, 01:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonas2 View Post
Cool, thanks for that!



Yeah, that recommendation makes sense on the CI Pro!

Question #1 - Good question. One that I would defer to those that have tried it, or Dolby Labs afa popcorn ceilings. Though the prevailing thought seems to be direct is better than reflected, like in upfiring speakers so should not be an issue for you since you're doing in-ceilings.

Question #2 - This is experimental in my opinion. The speakers are designed to not need them (what is referred to as infinite baffle), but depending on your local building codes may require them for fire safety. People do it both ways, and I'd expect back boxes to reinforce the sound to some degree and help to keep it from affecting spaces above if there are any. You might want to experiment, maybe others can chime in here on this topic. If you have a "dirty" attic space, or fluffy insulation, you might want to at least cover the speaker installs in some plastic sheeting just to keep debris off of them. (RSL recommended this to me.).
Are RSL C34e infinite baffle? Or do they need enclosure?

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post #2025 of 2588 Old 11-08-2016, 05:13 AM
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Most of the speakers recommended on this thread are not available on my country.
I'm also trying to go Atmos on the cheap here.

I'm going for the Denon 4200 for atmos. How much power do I need for the 2 cealing speakers for atmos?

I know I can't afford the best speakers but some of those JBL spekaers are that bad?
Like the 6iW?

I'm also able to find the Kef ci160qs here, would that be just too bad or would work ok?
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post #2026 of 2588 Old 11-08-2016, 06:32 AM
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Most of the speakers recommended on this thread are not available on my country.
I'm also trying to go Atmos on the cheap here.

I'm going for the Denon 4200 for atmos. How much power do I need for the 2 cealing speakers for atmos?

I know I can't afford the best speakers but some of those JBL spekaers are that bad?
Like the 6iW?

I'm also able to find the Kef ci160qs here, would that be just too bad or would work ok?
I will give you my suggestions. Of course the topic of this thread is to find the "Best in ceiling speakers for Atmos", so I will be going out of topic, but since your goal is to find speakers that serve your atmos duties, here are some points to consider that may help you in the process:
1. The atmos speakers should be able to reproduce mid-range and some high frequency well. A 6.5 inch mid range speaker and below works best compared to the bigger ones, according to many speaker manufacturer in-house techs.
2. Depending on the height of your room, a circular concentric speaker module housing the tweeter over the mid range works best. Tweeters are directional, and you can easily have a sense of the source location when you hear the tweeter. In a lesser but still significant way, you will also feel the source location on the midrange. Now if the tweeters and mid range are rather separated like you showed in the JBL, you will hear the staggered layout of the mid range driver and tweeters. If your ceiling is low, this will be more pronounced, as this is little space left for the sound to disperse. So smaller round concentric speakers works best, and more often they are cheaper than the fancy, usually suboptimal layouts like MTM or MT.
3. Your atmos speakers should be timbre matched to your main speakers (this does not mean same speakers) as much as you can. Same manufacturer always help. Ask manufacturer helpline, if not certain on recommended timbre matched in-ceiling speakers. Why is this important? When George Clooney goes around you in 360 degrees in Gravity, you don't want him to sound too differently from speaker to speaker.
4. No way your atmos speakers are too taxed, they don't need super amplification, as their jobs are relegated to providing you the surround sounds most of the time. My personal observation from my previous 5.1.2 and now 7.2.4 setup, is that your rear surrounds are least taxed, more or less similar to your rear heights. The front heights are usually a bit more involved, but still don't need any major amplification powers.
5. Lower frequencies don't need to be played through atmos speakers. Come to think of it when we hear thunder, we hear the first set of high to mid frequency crackles with a directional vector (for lack of a better term) which tells us where in the sky has the thunder struck. This is followed by the deep rumble that has no direction and it seems to fill the entire surround (The best sub effect one can ever hear). This is also exactly where a good quality sub-woofer will take over give you the punch. Please don't forget that an atmos speaker with around a 6.5 inch driver will deliver a natural sound that we hear when people speak and birds tweet.

Hope this helps.
G-Rex and giftedmd like this.
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post #2027 of 2588 Old 11-08-2016, 06:57 AM
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I will give you my suggestions. Of course the topic of this thread is to find the "Best in ceiling speakers for Atmos", so I will be going out of topic, but since your goal is to find speakers that serve your atmos duties, here are some points to consider that may help you in the process:
1. The atmos speakers should be able to reproduce mid-range and some high frequency well. A 6.5 inch mid range speaker and below works best compared to the bigger ones, according to many speaker manufacturer in-house techs.
2. Depending on the height of your room, a circular concentric speaker module housing the tweeter over the mid range works best. Tweeters are directional, and you can easily have a sense of the source location when you hear the tweeter. In a lesser but still significant way, you will also feel the source location on the midrange. Now if the tweeters and mid range are rather separated like you showed in the JBL, you will hear the staggered layout of the mid range driver and tweeters. If your ceiling is low, this will be more pronounced, as this is little space left for the sound to disperse. So smaller round concentric speakers works best, and more often they are cheaper than the fancy, usually suboptimal layouts like MTM or MT.
3. Your atmos speakers should be timbre matched to your main speakers (this does not mean same speakers) as much as you can. Same manufacturer always help. Ask manufacturer helpline, if not certain on recommended timbre matched in-ceiling speakers. Why is this important? When George Clooney goes around you in 360 degrees in Gravity, you don't want him to sound too differently from speaker to speaker.
4. No way your atmos speakers are too taxed, they don't need super amplification, as their jobs are relegated to providing you the surround sounds most of the time. My personal observation from my previous 5.1.2 and now 7.2.4 setup, is that your rear surrounds are least taxed, more or less similar to your rear heights. The front heights are usually a bit more involved, but still don't need any major amplification powers.
5. Lower frequencies don't need to be played through atmos speakers. Come to think of it when we hear thunder, we hear the first set of high to mid frequency crackles with a directional vector (for lack of a better term) which tells us where in the sky has the thunder struck. This is followed by the deep rumble that has no direction and it seems to fill the entire surround (The best sub effect one can ever hear). This is also exactly where a good quality sub-woofer will take over give you the punch. Please don't forget that an atmos speaker with around a 6.5 inch driver will deliver a natural sound that we hear when people speak and birds tweet.

Hope this helps.
This helped me A LOT. Thank you so much for this.

The only thing I can't follow on your directions is the same timbre as my main speakers. I use a pair of B&W 604 that I got when money wasn't an issue for me. Now things are a little worst than that time.

Getting a pair of B&W speakers now would be really difficult.
I'll study your directions and make a small chart for myself and start looking for the correct speaker for my setup.

I still need to get my new AV Receiver for this.
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post #2028 of 2588 Old 11-08-2016, 07:26 AM
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Many people are installing 8". I am, as the size difference is very minor vs 6.5.... Remember, the size measured by frame size, not cone size. My yamaha speakers are advertised as 8" but the cones are 6.5". Many speakers advertised as 6.5 have 4" cones. As long as you get a mid-or-higher quality speaker, it should be fine. Many are very happy with the Mica 8"

My thought is that the 8 will provide a more full range sound spectrum and likely be higher dispersion... Thus, good for Atmos

I got what I did because they have dual aimable tweeters... And I got them used for $40 each shipped so even if I change them out I'll make all my investment back.

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Many people are installing 8". I am, as the size difference is very minor vs 6.5.... Remember, the size measured by frame size, not cone size. My yamaha speakers are advertised as 8" but the cones are 6.5". Many speakers advertised as 6.5 have 4" cones. As long as you get a mid-or-higher quality speaker, it should be fine. Many are very happy with the Mica 8"

I got what I did because they have dual aimable tweeters... And I got them used for $40 each shipped so even if I change them out I'll make all my investment back.
Mica 8" are about $40 new on Amazon now..



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post #2030 of 2588 Old 11-08-2016, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by lampsy View Post
Are RSL C34e infinite baffle? Or do they need enclosure?
Infinite baffle.

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Originally Posted by veggav View Post
Most of the speakers recommended on this thread are not available on my country.
I'm also trying to go Atmos on the cheap here.
RSL ships internationally in case you are interested! And they are cheap while still very well-regarded.

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Originally Posted by Hellohowareyou View Post
2. Depending on the height of your room, a circular concentric speaker module housing the tweeter over the mid range works best. Tweeters are directional, and you can easily have a sense of the source location when you hear the tweeter. In a lesser but still significant way, you will also feel the source location on the midrange. Now if the tweeters and mid range are rather separated like you showed in the JBL, you will hear the staggered layout of the mid range driver and tweeters. If your ceiling is low, this will be more pronounced, as this is little space left for the sound to disperse. So smaller round concentric speakers works best, and more often they are cheaper than the fancy, usually suboptimal layouts like MTM or MT.
I would only point out that many speakers are not concentric, like many of the Revel speakers (including among their top of the line C763L), as well as the RSL C34E among others. I certainly get what you're saying, but not sure how significant it really is. I'm no expert.
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post #2031 of 2588 Old 11-08-2016, 08:49 AM
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This helped me A LOT. Thank you so much for this.

The only thing I can't follow on your directions is the same timbre as my main speakers. I use a pair of B&W 604 that I got when money wasn't an issue for me. Now things are a little worst than that time.

Getting a pair of B&W speakers now would be really difficult.
I'll study your directions and make a small chart for myself and start looking for the correct speaker for my setup.

I still need to get my new AV Receiver for this.
I would suggest that you talk to the tech support at B&W (your manufacturer of the main speakers). I'm sure they have speakers at different price points that may help. Again, they don't need to be the best ones out there. You'll be likely surprised at how different their recommendations would be from your thought process. Mine was. Any speaker manufacturer worth its salt will give you very good suggestions for your setup. Of course in my mind, the best in ceiling atmos speakers are the ones that provide a seamless surround and don't stand apart.

In the case that B&W in-ceiling speakers are out of your budget, I suggest you visit some local specialized stores to play the surrounds with the B&W mains, if possible. Most of these stores will try to challenge you to get the most expensive in-ceiling equipment, but you can be the best judge. Thing is, the Gravity Atmos may be an extreme example of immersive surround. We all know how George Clooney sounds like in real life, so trying to match the same frequency in all 11 speakers is always a challenge. If you will mostly watch these kind of space or underwater videos/documentaries where same sound needs to travel all around, then matching the timbres are your safest bet. If however, you're like me and you watch everything, which means you'll mostly hear movies with metal clanking, car engines, or monsters charging etc. these sounds do not have a reference point. They can be of any frequency ranges, and who'll say which is the correct metal, engine or monsters sound (i.e. the reference point). And for sure you will be okay with a few movies where they don't completely timbre match your mains.
Point is don't sweat. Get a good quality sub, centre and front surround, in decreasing order of importance. Atmos should be the cheapest purchase of all.
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post #2032 of 2588 Old 11-08-2016, 08:57 AM
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I would only point out that many speakers are not concentric, like many of the Revel speakers (including among their top of the line C763L), as well as the RSL C34E among others. I certainly get what you're saying, but not sure how significant it really is. I'm no expert.
I have high regard for these speakers and their manufacturers, but you'll note that the most of the speaker enclosures themselves take good care of the dispersion characteristics to allow for a source point compensation (for lack of a better term in my head).

Having just a flat MTM or MT above you and separated by just a few feet from your ears is sub-optimal in my opinion. Also note that their drivers are generally smaller. Smaller drivers to me are very important for good natural sounds. Bigger drivers are generally not better here.
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post #2033 of 2588 Old 11-08-2016, 09:01 AM
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For those of you with in ceiling speaekrs with amiable tweeters, do you point the tweeters straight down or slightly toward MLP?

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post #2034 of 2588 Old 11-08-2016, 09:10 AM
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For those of you with in ceiling speaekrs with amiable tweeters, do you point the tweeters straight down or slightly toward MLP?
With 4 speakers on the ceiling I have tried both options, but have generally settled down to slightly aiming to the "seating locations", instead of the MLP. Not based on hard science, but out of necessity (my four year old daughter tends to always win the MLP for any screening). Fun aside, slightly aiming the tweeters towards the seating locations has worked very well for me.

Last edited by Hellohowareyou; 11-08-2016 at 09:20 AM.
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post #2035 of 2588 Old 11-10-2016, 03:51 PM
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There is merit for sure to this line of thinking - timbre matching - but the best thing to do would be to contact DefTech and run it by them, see what they think about that specifically given your scenario.



Right there with you on getting right the first time! Fortunately and unfortunately you are not cutting into your ceiling so while you are getting pretty low at that 7' level, you at least don't need to worry about putting the wrong size hole in your ceiling and second guessing what you've done. You can always build a new back box if needed, so that's a good inroad to experimentation.

From another thread, fellow forum member richlife said:

"Over the weeks that I've had these C34Es, I've grown to appreciate them more and more. The dispersion (ideal for Atmos) from those two drivers is amazing. I ended up standing between them and actually getting on a step ladder to better determine how they contributed to a great Atmos soundtrack (the opening bomber run in Unbroken). That led to me increasing the level by +3db, and showed me even more how good these sound. And I still can't pick them out of the soundfield. Perfect for Atmos!"

In other words, they are not so easy to isolate as a direct source which I think is to your benefit at that low height, or so I'm led to believe. The RSLs are definitely within your budget and should be O.K. for height in your back box. Best of all, you simply can't beat their policy on satisfaction, shipping, and returns nor their price. I know, how can something so cheap be so good? Well, I have yet to read a disappointing review on them. I'm also operating on a limited budget, so I don't want to spend money unnecessarily - but SQ is key. I'm most likely going to cut a hole in my ceiling, the size of the smallest speaker I'm considering, and then order up one of the RSLs and simply place it up above the hole and get a taste. If they blend well with my system, easy - make bigger hole, but 3 more, install, and enjoy. You could maybe do something similar with a back box.

The other speaker brand I'd recommend which is unfortunately out of your budget, is Revel, known for their neutrality, they've got the aimable tweeter as well as boundary controls like the DefTechs.
I'm so sorry for the long delay in responding. Our internet has been down and we only have one choice in our area (DSL) - I'm so happy to have internet back and this is one of the first things I'm following up on.

Anyway, I want to thank you for taking the time to try and help me.

Only you and one other person responded, but neither of you seem to recommend the KEF speakers which I find amazing considering how many people have gone with their big brother and the reviews on them.

It seems as if RSL or DefTech is what is most recommended for me, so I still have thinking to do. Would you even consider the KEF at all, or no?

Thanks,

--J
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post #2036 of 2588 Old 11-10-2016, 03:56 PM
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I replaced four Definitive Technology DI 8R in ceiling speakers used as Atmos with RSL C34E speakers and noticed no difference in SQ. That's not to say that either speaker is deficient in any way. They both are excellent and did their job as called upon. If immersive sound is your goal, either speaker will do the job equally. Timbre matching was not an issue with either speaker. The reason I switched is because of how impressed I was with my RSL Speedwoofer 10S subwoofers and RSL's customer service.

Call RSL and speak to either Joe or Howard. They love to talk one on one with their prospective and current customers about their products.
This is VERY interesting to me. You actually had the exact speakers I'm thinking of getting, so you seem most qualified to assist me, but if you noticed no difference at all, I'm curious as to what made you decide to recommend the RSL over the DefTech?

Do you (or did you) also use DefTech for your mains? If not, then the timbre matching you described makes sense, but if you did/do use DefTech for your mains and the timbre matching still didn't make any difference, I'm surprised and intrigued.

The RSL's are a bit cheaper but the DefTech's, if they sound identical in your opinion, might be a safer bet for me since I have DefTech's all around.

Would you not even consider the KEF's then?

Thanks again for taking the time to try and help me.

--J
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post #2037 of 2588 Old 11-10-2016, 04:47 PM
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I have experience with standard (non-enclosed) speakers in the ceiling of my home theater being driven by a 150W per channel amplifier. Even when the bass management was removing bass below 100Hz, there was still enough low bass energy to vibrate the ceiling and the sound could be heard in adjacent rooms and even outside (quite loud) through the attic vents! The vibration made the sound muddy and generally annoying. Building my own back boxes (with the very limited space available) out of 2x4's and MDF helped a lot.

I'm sure those are fine speakers, but they don't have a built in rear enclosure / back box. They will sound fine at 50dB for background music in a whole house audio system but they are NOT going to sound good in the ceiling for home theater purposes.

The best thing you could do before the sheet rock goes up is to build-in some sound proof enclosures in the proper overhead locations - then you could mount any in-wall speaker you want and it would sound MUCH better. Build the enclosures with a decent amount of volume - a couple of cubic feet if you can as most in-walls are tuned to use the entire space behind the wall as an enclosure.
referancing this.. i am going to be installing these: Proficient Audio C660 in-ceiling speakers in my home

http://www.proficientaudio.com/produ...ng-lcr-speaker

My ceiling is currently completely open right down to the floor joists. Would it be a good idea to simply box in the space within the joist around the speaker creating a box?
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post #2038 of 2588 Old 11-10-2016, 05:44 PM
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This is VERY interesting to me. You actually had the exact speakers I'm thinking of getting, so you seem most qualified to assist me, but if you noticed no difference at all, I'm curious as to what made you decide to recommend the RSL over the DefTech?

Do you (or did you) also use DefTech for your mains? If not, then the timbre matching you described makes sense, but if you did/do use DefTech for your mains and the timbre matching still didn't make any difference, I'm surprised and intrigued.

The RSL's are a bit cheaper but the DefTech's, if they sound identical in your opinion, might be a safer bet for me since I have DefTech's all around.

Would you not even consider the KEF's then?

Thanks again for taking the time to try and help me.

--J
The main reasons I switched to the RSL's was because of my overall satisfaction with both the value and the customer service of the company as well as the R&D that they put into every product they sell. I had recently purchased four of their Speedwoofer 10S subwoofers and was more than pleased with their integration with the Def Tech setup.

I still have the Def Tech BP8080 7.2 system in play and I too was initially concerned with maintaining brand name speaker continuity throughout the system. After having the DI 8R speakers in place for almost two months I decided to go with the CE34's because even though they were less costly than the Def Tech's, I felt that I would not be giving up anything in overall tonal quality and was even expecting an improvement. I firmly believe I made the right decision and had I had it to do all over again, I would have gone RSL from the beginning.

There is no way to A/B the two speakers in place as they have different cut out diameters but it is my conviction that timbre matching, while important in the mains and surrounds, is not as critical when it comes to Atmos.

The $200 savings for a set of four was frosting on the cake. I have no experience with the KEF's so I can't help you there. If peace of mind is an important consideration, I'd go with the DI 8R's.

I'd be more than happy to have you over for a SQ check but Southern Ohio is a ways away from Western Oregon. Best of luck whichever way you go.

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post #2039 of 2588 Old 11-11-2016, 04:20 PM
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Hi all - been lurking, researching, learned a lot here and thought the Infinity ERS-610 worth a mention. It's a 3-way(tweet/mid angled at about 30-35 degrees)/ 80Hz+/sealed design by Harman(has existed in slight variations as JBL L360C, Revel IC15 & C763L(touted earlier in this thread)). It originally retailed for around $900, been discontinued but quite a few still out there at $200-$300(depending on dealer/packages) - might fit the 'best' and 'best for the money' category?

I bought 4 of them for surrounds in a 7.1 build-out, but have since talked myself into a 5.1.4. On paper, they sound ideal but might be a bit overkill for my current set-up so I've been waffling between keeping or swapping to some 2-way 6"or 8"w/ a ceiling enclosure (my build-out still in process)

FWIW, I'm pretty well versed in audio but zero experience w/Atmos so welcome feedback/suggestions. I have tested one in a mock ceiling box as a center with my Infinity RS263 towers and although a bit thin by comparison(no surprise), fit and sounded great. I have not had a chance to test 'dispersion'(wasn't a concern at the time) but happy to comment when I do. Lots of comments on matching timbre of Atmos not a concern for many, but is suggested in the Dolby Atmos catalog - I'll probably stick with the Harman family either way, but welcome comment there as well.
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post #2040 of 2588 Old 11-11-2016, 04:57 PM
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For those of you with in ceiling speaekrs with amiable tweeters, do you point the tweeters straight down or slightly toward MLP?


Definitely towards the MLP

Primary set-up 5.1.4; Yamaha A2050, Paired w/Parsound P5 Preamp & A21 amp
Revel F206 fronts & Revel M16 rears; Outlaw X12 Sub & 4 RSL C34e in-ceilings

Secondary 5.1: Denon S900W, Polks LSiM703/704C, Polk RC80i in-ceiling rears, RSL Speedwoofer 10s
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