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post #1 of 41 Old 08-21-2014, 09:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Spec's ONLY.. NO names...

If I provide you withthe specs only and NOT the name of the company which speaker would you chooseand why? This speaker could cost $1,000 or $100,000 each. But you are unable to decide via brand name or model. Thoughts? Lets say they are for Home Theater use only!

Speaker A:


Rated Coverage Angle (-6
90° Axisymmetric dB)
Frequency Range (-10 dB)
48 Hz to 19 kHz
Rated Noise Power
300 W
Sensitivity
95.5 dB
Maximum Continuous SPL
120 dB
Maximum Peak SPL
126 dB
Impedance

Maximum Recommended Amplifier Power
600 W
Woofer
Tweeter
12" (305 mm) woofer, 2.5" voice coil
Compression driver with 1.75" (44 mm) voice coil
Enclosure
MDF, non-reflective vinyl wrap


Speaker B:

Woofer 12” (304.8mm) woofer 2.5” voice coil
Tweeter
Compression driver with 1” voice
Sensitivity
98db - 2.83V/1m
Nominal Impedance
8 Ohm
Frequency Response
37hz - 20khz +/-3db
Crossover Point
1300hz
Recommended Power
10 - 500 watts
Enclosure Type
MDF, Ported

Denon 4311CI, Panasonic 8000 w/ 130" AT Screen
DIY QSC SC-2150 Clone L,C,R sr-8101 heights
DIY (4) Fusion Tempest
DIY (2) Ultimax 15 "Sub's
Dayton MK4 & B&W ASW 855 15", (2) SI 18 subs.

Last edited by rlhaudio; 08-21-2014 at 09:12 PM.
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post #2 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlhaudio View Post
If I provide you withthe specs only and NOT the name of the company which speaker would you chooseand why?
Neither. Those specs would seem to be for pro-sound PA speakers. High quality pro-sound speakers aren't made from MDF. MDF is common in home or autosound speakers, where weight and durability isn't an issue. But because it's heavy and not durable it's never used in pro-sound except in cheap speakers where the only consideration is keeping the price down.
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post #3 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 05:12 AM
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Which ever ones I thought sounded better.

/thread
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post #4 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 05:21 AM
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Spec's can tell you about the capabilities of a speaker, but that does not translate into how it sounds.
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post #5 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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The speakers could be stated as "pro speakers", due to the high spl and CD driver. I'll let you know the brands at the end, just curious where this would go. Both are sold through the manufacturer/Internet and not available in a store which is why you would have to purchase via the specs and not the name. That is a good clue. You may be surprised when you find out the name brands behind the speakers.

Denon 4311CI, Panasonic 8000 w/ 130" AT Screen
DIY QSC SC-2150 Clone L,C,R sr-8101 heights
DIY (4) Fusion Tempest
DIY (2) Ultimax 15 "Sub's
Dayton MK4 & B&W ASW 855 15", (2) SI 18 subs.
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post #6 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 08:28 AM
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I don't buy speakers on specs...

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post #7 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlhaudio View Post
The speakers could be stated as "pro speakers", due to the high spl and CD driver. I'll let you know the brands at the end, just curious where this would go. Both are sold through the manufacturer/Internet and not available in a store which is why you would have to purchase via the specs and not the name. That is a good clue. You may be surprised when you find out the name brands behind the speakers.
I don't see the point of this?

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post #8 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 08:51 AM
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I learned to take a lot of specs, with a few grains of salt.

Also, the driver size of the speakers does not guarantee a whole lot.
Some bigger drivers can be poorer than some smaller drivers.

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post #9 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 09:00 AM
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I'd have a much easier time with this exercise using only SPL plots instead of written specs. That said, I'd go for speaker A I suppose. A 12 inch woofer is already beaming at a crossover frequency of 1300hz.

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post #10 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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The point of this is that their are many speaker manufacturers selling online instead of in stores. ie, Salk Sound, JTR, Selah Audio, JBL, QSC, Danley, Emotiva, Triad, and the list goes on. Guess we could include some DIY designs since some of the manufacturers are basically DIY designs that are now (officially branded names) The point is..... Are people purchasing based on the speakers specs or the "brand" name?
BTW the speakers above are in the list I provided.

Denon 4311CI, Panasonic 8000 w/ 130" AT Screen
DIY QSC SC-2150 Clone L,C,R sr-8101 heights
DIY (4) Fusion Tempest
DIY (2) Ultimax 15 "Sub's
Dayton MK4 & B&W ASW 855 15", (2) SI 18 subs.
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post #11 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlhaudio View Post
The point is..... Are people purchasing based on the speakers specs or the "brand" name?
Neither, for me. I start with reviews...both online/print publications who've had a chance to audition the speakers, and forum users who've also tried them. I take all reviews with a grain of salt, but it's a starting point. Publications can be influenced by advertisers, and forum users can sometimes be over-zealous in their praise for what they spent their hard-earned money on. But, again, it's a starting point. I try to find speakers that are well suited to my room size (based on what others are using) and listening preferences (good mix of movies and music).

From there, I narrow it down to a short list, and audition in-home. Almost every Internet direct brand has liberal return policies so that people can try them in their home and return if necessary.

That's how I ended up with my Hsu sub, and before that my Athena Point Five's (which are quickly being relegated to the 2nd system...but were a great easy-on-the-budget way to get started in surround sound many years ago...)

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post #12 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 09:38 AM
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There are really only two valid ways to compare speakers.

The first is to compare BOTH on and off-axis frequency response. On-axis plots are necessary but not sufficient.

The second is with controlled, double blind listening tests.

A trained person can look at a design and have some idea of what the results will be without this information, but there are always exceptions.

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post #13 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 09:49 AM
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If I was Only looking at the specs.
I would chose neither.

The firsts one is worst

Maximum Continuous SPL
120 dB
Maximum Peak SPL
126 dB
Only 6db dif?

MDF, non-reflective vinyl wrap??? Realy?

Ray
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post #14 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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I did this same experiment with Amplifiers using a pro amp, McIntosh, Krell, Marantz, and Denon. People said basically the same thing. Neither was most responses even though some actually owned the amplifier in the list. Once I posted which was which the comments starting to changing to well if.... and but this... etc. Its all in good fun. I cant list all the speaker components because that would give it away. Speaker A was very close in specs to its competition. So that could go either way..


Any Guesses as to what BRAND they are?


I should have tossed in Klipsch Palladium specs.. o well.. too late.

Denon 4311CI, Panasonic 8000 w/ 130" AT Screen
DIY QSC SC-2150 Clone L,C,R sr-8101 heights
DIY (4) Fusion Tempest
DIY (2) Ultimax 15 "Sub's
Dayton MK4 & B&W ASW 855 15", (2) SI 18 subs.

Last edited by rlhaudio; 08-22-2014 at 10:24 AM.
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post #15 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 10:32 AM
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Speaker A is QSC. Not sure about speaker B.

Panasonic TC-P60ST60, Pioneer SC-1523-K, Oppo BDP-103D, Pioneer PL-550 + Cambridge Audio Azur 640P, B&W CM1 (fronts), B&W CM Centre, Athena Point 5 Mk II (rears), Hsu VTF-2
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post #16 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 11:17 AM
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I pick speakers based on sound NOT specs. Addittionally brand name comes into factor when I am thinking about quality made speakers. Plus some companies have great return policies or risk free in home trial periods which make them more ideal for someone who isn't sure they will like the sound.

Plenty of budget and some not to budget speaker companies [*cough* Klipsch *cough*] give impressive speaker specs but they rarely can perform to those specs.

OP-Get whatever sounds best to your ears!!! If you want some real advice please give us your budget, room size, and what you are looking to achieve with their speakers. Otherwise any other input you give us is silly.
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post #17 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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I already own the speakers I was just educating my children how "branding" comes into play and how they learned about brands before they could even speak. As well as cost vs. brand. All watches tell the same time, while some people spend $5 on a watch others will spend $1,000's. Of course other variables come into play. Now I am getting away from my O.P. as this could take us into many different discussions. SO. lets end the suspense...

For those that GO out t the movies, I'll bet you have heard a "variation" to speaker A. Which is the QSC and JBL Cinema series speakers. (granted you have not heard this much cheaper version, you heard the BIG brothers. However, the cost of speaker A is around $600 each.


Speaker B has been DIY'ed by many people on this site. It is the Fusion Tempest offered by diysoundgroup. The price for a pair is just under $700 each.


Next time I'll be sure to toss in some HI-END speakers but not many have similar specs although I should have put in JTR as well..


Interesting experiment.. Thanks guys

Denon 4311CI, Panasonic 8000 w/ 130" AT Screen
DIY QSC SC-2150 Clone L,C,R sr-8101 heights
DIY (4) Fusion Tempest
DIY (2) Ultimax 15 "Sub's
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post #18 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 11:44 AM
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Choosing a speaker based on specs is naive. Specs don't tell the story of a speaker, only the actual listening experience can do that. Not to mention the specs are often made up by some marketing department and do not reflect reality.

This exercise accomplishes nothing but to reinforce the fallacy that specs are the do-all and be-all of audio.
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post #19 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
If I was Only looking at the specs.
I would chose neither.

The firsts one is worst

Maximum Continuous SPL
120 dB
Maximum Peak SPL
126 dB
Only 6db dif?

MDF, non-reflective vinyl wrap??? Realy?

Ray
6 dB peak is 4x the power. That's higher than average burst. Most "hi-fi" speakers are only 2x power for peak (3dB)
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post #20 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post
Choosing a speaker based on specs is naive. Specs don't tell the story of a speaker, only the actual listening experience can do that. Not to mention the specs are often made up by some marketing department and do not reflect reality.

This exercise accomplishes nothing but to reinforce the fallacy that specs are the do-all and be-all of audio.
When you have enough specs, then it does. If he gave us the frequency response plot, full horizontal and vertical dispersion plot, power compression plot, and distortion plot it would give you a very good idea of how the speaker will perform. Of course listening to them in your room is the best way to know, but 99% of the time you can't audition speakers in your room set up properly before you buy them.

But you're right there isn't enough specs given here to tell us much of anything.



I am guessing speaker B is the Tempests though.
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post #21 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
6 dB peak is 4x the power. That's higher than average burst. Most "hi-fi" speakers are only 2x power for peak (3dB)

I wish you had jumped into the conversation earlier since you own the Tempests. That NON reflective vinyl wrap is actually called Duratex paint LOL. ah, Gotta love advertising.. So, specs don't matter because they all lie, the brand doesn't matter because they lie, we cant trust reviews because those are subjective and price doesn't matter because we all know the retail markup is ridiculous. So. in the end we base our purchase on actually "listening" to the speaker? I wonder how this Internet Based companies are making so much money. I guess its based on the 30 day in home audition.


Wonder if the answers would have been different if I re-stated the OP asking "which" speaker is the better choice. Giving you the brand name, price, and specs. Would your replies have been different? Im asking an honest question and hoping for an honest answer.

Denon 4311CI, Panasonic 8000 w/ 130" AT Screen
DIY QSC SC-2150 Clone L,C,R sr-8101 heights
DIY (4) Fusion Tempest
DIY (2) Ultimax 15 "Sub's
Dayton MK4 & B&W ASW 855 15", (2) SI 18 subs.
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post #22 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 12:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlhaudio View Post
If I provide you withthe specs only and NOT the name of the company which speaker would you chooseand why? This speaker could cost $1,000 or $100,000 each. But you are unable to decide via brand name or model. Thoughts? Lets say they are for Home Theater use only!

Speaker A:


Rated Coverage Angle (-6
90° Axisymmetric dB)
Frequency Range (-10 dB)
48 Hz to 19 kHz
Rated Noise Power
300 W
Sensitivity
95.5 dB
Maximum Continuous SPL
120 dB
Maximum Peak SPL
126 dB
Impedance

Maximum Recommended Amplifier Power
600 W
Woofer
Tweeter
12" (305 mm) woofer, 2.5" voice coil
Compression driver with 1.75" (44 mm) voice coil
Enclosure
MDF, non-reflective vinyl wrap


Speaker B:

Woofer 12” (304.8mm) woofer 2.5” voice coil
Tweeter
Compression driver with 1” voice
Sensitivity
98db - 2.83V/1m
Nominal Impedance
8 Ohm
Frequency Response
37hz - 20khz +/-3db
Crossover Point
1300hz
Recommended Power
10 - 500 watts
Enclosure Type
MDF, Ported
As the saying goes, there are lies, d@mn lies, and audio specifications.
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post #23 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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LOL so true.

Denon 4311CI, Panasonic 8000 w/ 130" AT Screen
DIY QSC SC-2150 Clone L,C,R sr-8101 heights
DIY (4) Fusion Tempest
DIY (2) Ultimax 15 "Sub's
Dayton MK4 & B&W ASW 855 15", (2) SI 18 subs.
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post #24 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post
Choosing a speaker based on specs is naive. Specs don't tell the story of a speaker, only the actual listening experience can do that. Not to mention the specs are often made up by some marketing department and do not reflect reality.

This exercise accomplishes nothing but to reinforce the fallacy that specs are the do-all and be-all of audio.
x2!!!!
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post #25 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
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The strange part is looking at the specs the Fusion Tempest appears to be a great speaker and it is. However I own the big brother QSC 2150 and its a night/day difference. The 2150 easily and effortlessly destroy the Tempest. I blind tested with 3 adults and 8 children. Everyone chose the QSC for watching a movie. It sounded like the Tempest were muffled behind my AT screen, like they were way under powered, while the 2150 were loud and clear. I wonder if perhaps the Tempest were built for home theaters w/o AT screens? I heard lots of great reviews and they do sound good for some music and if there not behind anything. I was considering replacing them with Speaker A since its a smaller speaker but those specs don't make a lot of sense.
But then again, the SR 8101 specs didn't sound that great either but used as rears they do a great job. It was either the SR 8101 or soundgroups Coaxial 10"

Denon 4311CI, Panasonic 8000 w/ 130" AT Screen
DIY QSC SC-2150 Clone L,C,R sr-8101 heights
DIY (4) Fusion Tempest
DIY (2) Ultimax 15 "Sub's
Dayton MK4 & B&W ASW 855 15", (2) SI 18 subs.
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post #26 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 01:55 PM
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you can't compare speakers with only the 3 specs you listed. There is way more to speakers than those specs. The Tempests and QSC are completely different. QSC is a 3-way with 2 waveguides. Tempest is a 2-way with 1 waveguide. QSC is 1.4" CD, tempest is 1". Tempests don't have a dedicated mid. The goals of the speakers are completely different, QSC is specifically designed for a medium sized movie theater, Tempest is designed for music and movies in normal sized rooms.

They are in completely different price ranges too.
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post #27 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Transmaniacon View Post
Spec's can tell you about the capabilities of a speaker, but that does not translate into how it sounds.
The right specs do. But those provided are woefully incomplete. To make a definitive determination would require at least five sets of charts: SPL, Waterfall, THD, Maximum SPL and Polar Response.

Quote:
Choosing a speaker based on specs is naive. Specs don't tell the story of a speaker, only the actual listening experience can do that. Not to mention the specs are often made up by some marketing department and do not reflect reality.
This exercise accomplishes nothing but to reinforce the fallacy that specs are the do-all and be-all of audio.
Your reply tells me that you're not an acoustical engineer, either professional or amateur, nor do you design loudspeakers for a living. Those of us who do can tell more about how a speaker will perform from a complete set of specs than even the most 'golden eared' can by listening to them. But as noted these specs are anything but complete.

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post #28 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
As the saying goes, there are lies, d@mn lies, and audio specifications.
Lol! Never heard that saying so I'm giving you credit. So true.

Greg
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post #29 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Bassment. I was making a comment about my qsc 2150 and the tempest. (I stated I owned the bigger brother but I should have been more specific. I can see how that could be read out of context) The OP Speaker A is the QSC 1120 speaker B is the fusion Tempest, they are basically identical. Both 12" driver and both waveguides with a single cd. I was NOT comparing these two speakers. My fault Although I was thinking of replacing my huge 2150 with the 1120 but fear they will sound no better than the Tempest. So the only point would be to have matching speakers.


Take a moment to visit diysoundgroup and QSC for yourself. Here is a link to the specs I copied. This is ALL information they post about the their speakers. .

Speaker B: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/wavegui...ion12-kit.html




Speaker A: http://qsc.com/products/Loudspeakers...eries/SC-1120/


So as you can see, the specs I posted are the same from their own website, what more information do you want or need or should be posted? The only way to be MORE spec specific would be if they listed each individual drivers capabilities and that of the crossover which would be a much closer regarded secret to stop people from reverse engineering. Keep it all in house and proprietary!

Denon 4311CI, Panasonic 8000 w/ 130" AT Screen
DIY QSC SC-2150 Clone L,C,R sr-8101 heights
DIY (4) Fusion Tempest
DIY (2) Ultimax 15 "Sub's
Dayton MK4 & B&W ASW 855 15", (2) SI 18 subs.

Last edited by rlhaudio; 08-22-2014 at 06:04 PM.
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post #30 of 41 Old 08-22-2014, 06:22 PM
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The thing is 99.999% of people don't know how to read polar graphs, waterfalls, THD, etc. I think most people can read a frequency response but that's about it. Manufacturer's also don't want to advertise these because I bet 9/10 times the "high-end" speakers end up looking bad, because companies make so many tradeoffs for form factor, looks, pricing and keeping speaker small.
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