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Vancouver GTG round 2.

21K views 374 replies 37 participants last post by  ggetzoff 
#1 · (Edited)
So I'm thinking of hosting another GTG this October 25th to compare 4-5 different speakers. It's going to be a smaller GTG this time though with 8 guys including myself being the max. Right now I'm at 6 guys meaning I have two open spots for anyone that wants to come.


Okay so update, as of right now here's the following names of guys attending on Saturday:


jbrown15 ...(Joe)
Tuxedocivic ...(Ryan)
chalugadp ...(Donny)
WarrenBerry ...(Warren)
tyee ...(Tony)
Manic1 ....(???)
IanS ...(Ian)
Giraffe ...(Raf)


And I'm waiting to hear back from Viruscwu (Jeremy)


So I'm say we're at full capacity for this GTG :)
 
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#3 ·
Hey Joe
Do you have preamp outputs on your processor? I might bring a Yorkville SP12P Parasource speaker if there is room. It's active and I have RCA to XLR boxes to convert so that's no problem as long as your processor has pre outs? If you have your choice of speakers already this one is not necessary but it's on my list. The 12" woofer sounds like a 15" from what everyone is saying.
 
#22 ·
Do you have preamp outputs on your processor? I might bring a Yorkville SP12P Parasource speaker if there is room. It's active and I have RCA to XLR boxes to convert so that's no problem as long as your processor has pre outs?
He has a Pioneer VSX-21TXH, which has pre-outs; his amp supports both XLR and RCA so you shouldn't need a converter.

Not sure if he can support multiple active speakers at his front stage, probably not beyond two 2-way actives at most.
 
#8 ·
No, as it stands right now we'll have my 228's, Ryan's TWW's again with the revised crossovers, a pair of 1099's and I have two prototype coax speakers coming. Should be lots of fun, and it'll be a blind listening so that should be interesting.
 
#12 ·
I would wager 100$ I could tell the difference. I do believe bias exists and we will see how I do with the blind testing. I wanted to do blind testing for first gtg but wasn't possible . I can't believe the mackies are better then my minions. I can tell the difference easily between minions and 1099.

To me the 1099 or equivalent level speakers are high enough for me. I think there 95% as good as anything out their. My minions are about 85%. Very good but leaving me wanting a little more for mains. Will be awesome for surrounds

For music 3 minutes tops. Just tell me the song and the 3 minutes you want and I can do the rest easy.
 
#13 ·
So I'm thinking of hosting another GTG this October 25th to compare 4-5 different speakers. It's going to be a smaller GTG this time though with 8 guys including myself being the max. Right now I'm at 6 guys meaning I have two open spots for anyone that wants to come.


Right now I have myself and following guys in.
Tuxedocivic
stsand
chalugadp
WarrenBerry
tyee


So if anyone else is interested let me know. :)
I may be in New York for a family wedding. Won't know for sure for a another few weeks. I'm trying to get out of it :D.
 
#14 ·
Hey Joe, have you reached out to Tom Vodhanel at Power Sound Audio about demoing his new MT-110 and MT-210 speakers at the GTG?

I was talking with him a couple of weeks ago and I mentioned how I'd ordered some Reaction Audio CX-15s/CX-8s. Tom said it'd be really cool to see how Jeremy's speakers compare with his. They're both compression driver designs coming out at the same time and it'd make one hell of a GTG to see how both compare with the JTRs. Just a thought :rolleyes:
 
#16 ·
Hey Joe, have you reached out to Tom Vodhanel at Power Sound Audio about demoing his new MT-110 and MT-210 speakers at the GTG?

I was talking with him a couple of weeks ago and I mentioned how I'd ordered some Reaction Audio CX-15s/CX-8s. Tom said it'd be really cool to see how Jeremy's speakers compare with his. They're both compression driver designs coming out at the same time and it'd make one hell of a GTG to see how both compare with the JTRs. Just a thought :rolleyes:
I have had a conversation with Tom about that and it could still possibly happen, but at the moment nothings set in stone because they are behind the gun getting parts in. I'm very familiar with there new design that they have coming out.
 
#19 ·
The format for this GTG has changed a little also, we are going to attempt to make this a double blind listening test to compare the speakers. We'll keep things simple and there'll only be four 3min songs per speaker and we'll run through them twice both times in random order. I wanted to keep the playlist and song lengths short so that it's easier for guys to recall what they hear from each song so that it's still fresh in their mind.


I think that we can knock out the blind listening part in 3 hours, once that's done we can have fun and get crazy with any of the speakers that guys want too. :)
 
#21 · (Edited)
I'll see if I can clear my schedule for that week.

My primary goal is actually to measure the voltage of jbrown's IPR2 7.5k and nu6kDSP after the listening event is over.
I was supposed to do that last time I was there but we ran out of time measuring other gear.

I've never been to or hosted a blind test before, so it's all new to me. (Could be interesting.)
All I know is that I have Level ~8ish "Golden" Ears to offer up.


I don't really need better mains (if that's even possible)... so I suppose you could say I'm not in the business of needing or looking for better mains.
That would give me a unique position in a listening test such as this, coming from (potentially) better speakers makes me an overly-critical listener.
I'm not expecting any of these 5 sets of speakers to be able to match the 3500watts of bass that my towers have in my room (how could they).
All I can do is rate them based on what I know, and what I know is my own speakers.

I'd recommend that when rating speakers that you reserve at least 1 star for a speaker that sounds better than your own (or the best speaker you've heard to-date).
So I might rate a speaker that can match my own as 9 stars, and one that can exceed it as 9.1+
Adjust accordingly, but at least that way you will have some wiggle room.

If someone is coming from worse speakers say, then they might tend to be more impressed by the sound (even fully-blind), thus they might have a harder time rating the better-sounding speakers as a result.

Car analogy:
If someone owns a Bugatti , they would be a lot more critical on a Ford Taurus or even a Lambo and not give them full stars; their mind has become pampered over time.
Generally, people make their sound systems better over time, not worse, so given enough time and money people tend to become more and more picky over time. If they went back to hear the first system they bought when they were younger they'd probably vomit in their mouth. (haha ;)) Funny how that works!
Conversely, someone who owns a Taurus might always rate a Lambo at 11/10 stars, which might be an overinflated rating. This is why the more listeners you can do, the better, as they all bring their own mindset and experience. Eventually, given enough listeners, you can build an average rating profile for that speaker.

-my 2 cents
 

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#23 ·
I don't know how your midrange could be as good as jtr 228 since your using cheap thrills driver. Yes your bass will be far superior but that's way down on my list. Midrange clarity and highs more important to me. Why don't you bring your mains ? Then you can see if your mains are as good as you have bragged about. Bring your stuff to power them.

No one other then you has heard your stuff. You said your mains are 30% better then joe's and my 1099. I call bullllshiiit. I predict with 80hz crossover to joe's subs that yours wont be rated higher then the 228s or the cx15 .

If I am wrong I will eat my words and buy you a case of beer of your choice [emoji482][emoji482][emoji482]
 
#24 · (Edited)
Easier said than done. As per below.

I haven't finished the front baffle on them yet, they aren't fully done. But they already weigh more than I do, and I'm not strong enough to lift them already. :eek:
I had to install the drivers in-place, and haven't moved them since. They stand almost 6 feet tall, I didn't design the box to survive transportation. Yes my woodworking skills suck. :eek:
Filtering them at 80hz would completely cripple my speakers.
Car analogy: It would be like having a decent sports car but with a strict speed/acceleration limiter chip added.
I designed them to do be flat 15hz-20khz at THX Ultra2 SPL's as a 3-way with near-zero distortion.

It takes an entire day to wire up my system; something tells me that I don't think your guests would want to stand around waiting that long. :D

I had to disconnect and reconnect all of this just to bring my XSP-1 and Oppo 105 the last time I was at jbrown's. It took forever. At jbrowns, that was only 3 of these wires I brought!

The problem doesn't end there, you guys use speakon, I don't. Each speaker requires 12 conductors going to them.
All my wiring is in-wall (can't bring with me) = can't transport the speaker, not gonna work.


It would be easier for you guys to bring your stuff to my place than for me to move 60% of my system into your system.

Also, my crossover's are external and I haven't got around to building containers for them yet. Pretty hackish at the moment. :D

The SQ of the 228 was just fine, it was their dispersion/soundstage that I didn't like. Not sure if putting them behind a screen or double blinding fabric would change that characteristic or not; probably.

I'm not bragging about it. I heard what I heard. I'm not gonna lie and say I liked their dispersion characteristics.
They probably did have better mids, but I found their dispersion completely distracting (so maybe that's why I didn't notice their better mids ability?)

I haven't heard the 1099's yet though, so I can't say anything about those speakers yet.

I can't wait to fully complete my system so that you can hear what 20 subwoofers and 7 full range SEOS towers with 80,000watts sounds like! :D
Maybe you won't like it, I don't know... :D

I haven't finished it fully just yet, but it sounds good so far (to me).
 

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#25 ·
Not sure how soundstage would be better with yours , but I haven't heard them so I don't know. Yeah no time to wire that much. Then you must have a gtg at your place this year.

As for your analogy to race cars I don't see it. Its like having a 400hp car in downtown Vancouver . Never going to use more then 80hp.

My humble 6000 watts of bass is easily capable of providing quality bass at up to reference level. I can't hit 130dbs like some here but I have no interest in doing that.

Hope you can make gtg. Will see blindfolded who likes what. [emoji344][emoji344]
 
#44 · (Edited)
Will see blindfolded who likes what.
I heard that the room makes up as much of the sound as the speaker itself does. (At least it's consistent though).
The only speaker from that list I've heard was the 228's... like 3 months ago for like 5 minutes in a room I'm not used to.
So I don't have the slightest idea what speaker in that list I might like best.

By doing it twice in random order it will be interesting to see if anybody can even consistently identify their most-liked or most-hated speaker twice in a row. ;)

Statistics says that there is a 1 in 10 chance of a given person picking both correctly by just pure guessing without actually hearing any of the speakers make a sound.

Which means out of 8 people, 1 is likely to pick the right set just by simply guessing at it.

If it is repeated a 3rd time, it drops to something like 1/64th for guessing; which makes it statistical-unlikely that anybody in the group could just guess it correctly, they would have had to actually have heard a difference.

edit:
I just ran a simulation for 8 people and 6 speakers using a random dice app (http://www.random.org/dice/?num=1)
and then graphed the test in excel, and this is what I got:

Many of them guessed the correct speaker index at least once, in 1 or across all trails.
Out of the 2 trails ran, 1 person selected the correct speaker twice by randomly guessing.
;)

The less people and speakers you graph, the more likely it is of them guessing them correctly in both runs (up to a point).
 

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#26 ·
Shawn, one thing I never really talked about when you were over listening to my 228's was the fact that I hardly had them toed in at all. I've found the more toe in you give them the bigger the sound stage gets. That might be part of the issue you were having with them.
 
#31 · (Edited)
Could have been the lack of toe in, never occurred to me. Mine are about 40 degrees inward too.


When I was running my rears as fronts, they went plenty loud enough above 80hz, but I was too used to the heavy bass that came out of my B&W 3-ways with clear mids in order for me to truly enjoy the sound of the DIY speakers.

I had to boost the 15" cone to make it do the 30hz that my B&W's could reach to, but that then conflicted with the mid-vocal performance, simply just too much bandwidth, too much IMD I guess.

By adding dedicated bass units, I got into the infrasonics (so like: twice as deep as the B&W's could go), and the 15" mid only needing to reach down to 120hz now, is much clearer in the vocals.
As a result, I can now crank my system up to 120db continous and 2000watts per and it sounds clean and undistorted, and yet extended bass too, with no worry of bottoming out EVER.
The bass units on B&W would bottom out much over 105db and/or cook the tweeter.

I really do like it loud, I constantly stress out big amps, like this FP clone and iTech8000.

That's over 16,000watts on 50amp breaker and I still want more! (LOL! Never too many watts it seems!)


^^^This sounds crappier than what my current mains can do now on this song.
I'm just too damn picky is all! It's all good! :D
 

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#38 ·
Too bad you guys are not testing subs.

New ULF demo........"Edge of Tomorrow" has 4-6 second ULF moment that needs to be measured! Puts WOTW on notice! Scared the crap out of me.......thought I might have done something wrong on settings. My projector has never moved......even WOTW at reference couldn't to it.........this evening my screen was bouncing at least an inch or two! :eek:
 
#39 ·
Just picked up Live. Die. Repeat, er, Edge of Tomorrow...what, now I'm confused. Damn marketing. Thanks for the heads up...is that the 4-6 seconds at the very beginning someone mentioned?

And ughhh...thanks for reminding me that I need to see about mounting my projector with isolation mounts since I have them and haven't mounted my projector yet. The bad thing is that I put in a nice 2x6 block up in the ceiling to mount a future projector. Based on your vibrations, I think I need to rethink the thinking I originally did. Especially with a pair of 24s and pair of beastly 18s going in my room soon.
 
#45 · (Edited)
With that said:

If Person 7 said they liked speaker 5, 6, 3 or 4 best, then you'd know that he is lying or full of it;
as are the rest of the people because they couldn't even identify a speaker twice with consistency, let alone pick a fav! :D
(Or conversely, if they disliked a specific speaker; works both ways.)
 
#47 ·
Demo'd music last night for gtg. I found my leading contender so far for my track for gtg. Comes from aerosmith last good album , "get a.grip". Song is amazing . It has what I want to hear in a demo song.
1) great guitar licks from joe Perry including nice solo.
2) tight dynamic drumming
3) no one would say Steven Tyler has pure voice but he sounds good.
4) orchestral ensemble in few spots
5) great imaging and soundstage mixing. I have 24bit recording and its super clean
6) couple 15 second passages where tonnes is happening at once and really stresses speaker to seperate sound

On my 1099 this song rocks. The drumming has three dimensional quality with it sounding like your in the drummers seat with wrap around drum set. I can distinctly hear voices , drums , guitars , and orchestra in different spots. Even the back ground singers can be heard seperate . Can hear drums not only side to side but forward and back.

I've heard better songs for vocals , arianna grande is newish and is surprising very good. My choice is for something that is complex in seperating all that's going on and showing great tonal qualities of the song.

Song is 5min long so would go from 90second mark roughly to 5min mark.
 
#54 ·
Demo'd music last night for gtg. I found my leading contender so far for my track for gtg. Comes from aerosmith last good album , "get a.grip". Song is amazing . It has what I want to hear in a demo song.
2) tight dynamic drumming
5) great imaging and soundstage mixing. I have 24bit recording and its super clean
6) couple 15 second passages where tonnes is happening at once and really stresses speaker to seperate sound
Not sure about 24bit, but I just downloaded that song, it's horrible. No imaging, no soundstage, so much dynamic compression it makes my head explode.
Not sure what you see in that track.

I even played it on my sennheiser headphones just to confirm it wasn't my speakers/room being naughty.

If you want dynamic drums with full force kick drum, then try: Natalie Merchant - The Living

(Could use more hi tat to go with it though!)

Truly uncompressed drums should sound something more like this (not an uber SQ example, but gives a good idea...)

Now, if we could just add some singing and guitar, we'd be there.

Are there any rock/metal songs that have minimal compression in the recording?
 
#53 ·
No I still want to keep it too 4 songs for the double blind listening part. That will give us more time after the blind audition portion to let us have some fun with all of the other speakers, if guys want to hear a particular speaker after that part we can. We can also play some movie clips after that too.
 
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