Vancouver GTG round 2. - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 5Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 124 Old 09-10-2014, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 6,133
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 944 Post(s)
Liked: 1022
Vancouver GTG round 2.

So I'm thinking of hosting another GTG this October 25th to compare 4-5 different speakers. It's going to be a smaller GTG this time though with 8 guys including myself being the max. Right now I'm at 6 guys meaning I have two open spots for anyone that wants to come.


Okay so update, as of right now here's the following names of guys attending on Saturday:


jbrown15 ...(Joe)
Tuxedocivic ...(Ryan)
chalugadp ...(Donny)
WarrenBerry ...(Warren)
tyee ...(Tony)
Manic1 ....(???)
IanS ...(Ian)
Giraffe ...(Raf)


And I'm waiting to hear back from Viruscwu (Jeremy)


So I'm say we're at full capacity for this GTG

Last edited by jbrown15; Yesterday at 10:47 PM.
jbrown15 is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 124 Old 09-11-2014, 11:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chalugadp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 5,346
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1093 Post(s)
Liked: 1081
Maybe move this thread to diy section ? Probably get a lot more posts. I only look in speakers section once a week. Just my two pennies.
Oh I read reaction thread so I see why here.

Last edited by chalugadp; 09-11-2014 at 11:56 PM.
chalugadp is online now  
post #3 of 124 Old 09-12-2014, 04:31 PM
Senior Member
 
tyee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Hey Joe
Do you have preamp outputs on your processor? I might bring a Yorkville SP12P Parasource speaker if there is room. It's active and I have RCA to XLR boxes to convert so that's no problem as long as your processor has pre outs? If you have your choice of speakers already this one is not necessary but it's on my list. The 12" woofer sounds like a 15" from what everyone is saying.
tyee is offline  
post #4 of 124 Old 09-12-2014, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 6,133
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 944 Post(s)
Liked: 1022
Well, if you bring that speaker we'll have to drop either the 228's or 1099's from the list as I'm really trying to keep it to 4-5 pairs.
jbrown15 is online now  
post #5 of 124 Old 09-12-2014, 04:49 PM
Senior Member
 
tyee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 20
OK, don't worry about it. I'll just demo them locally.
tyee is offline  
post #6 of 124 Old 09-12-2014, 04:54 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 6,133
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 944 Post(s)
Liked: 1022
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyee View Post
OK, don't worry about it. I'll just demo them locally.
Need you to pick one some thing you really want to hear and let me know what it is.
jbrown15 is online now  
post #7 of 124 Old 09-12-2014, 05:43 PM
Senior Member
 
tyee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 20
How about the Yorkville U215's, but I think these are already on your list?
tyee is offline  
post #8 of 124 Old 09-12-2014, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 6,133
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 944 Post(s)
Liked: 1022
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyee View Post
How about the Yorkville U215's, but I think these are already on your list?

No, as it stands right now we'll have my 228's, Ryan's TWW's again with the revised crossovers, a pair of 1099's and I have two prototype coax speakers coming. Should be lots of fun, and it'll be a blind listening so that should be interesting.
jbrown15 is online now  
post #9 of 124 Old 09-12-2014, 06:06 PM
Senior Member
 
tyee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Yes, blind is the way to go, especially after what Archaea did.

Are the coax a secret or can you tell what they are?

Is Donny collecting the audio/video clips again?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Need you to pick one some thing you really want to hear and let me know what it is.
Do you mean some music, sorry I thought you meant a speaker above?


BTW - I sold some Behringer stuff to a local DJ today. We talked and he's got the cheapy Behringer B215XL's. He will let me try them next week. Have wanted to hear these for months now.

Last edited by tyee; 09-12-2014 at 06:16 PM.
tyee is offline  
post #10 of 124 Old 09-12-2014, 07:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chalugadp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 5,346
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1093 Post(s)
Liked: 1081
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyee View Post
Yes, blind is the way to go, especially after what Archaea did.

Are the coax a secret or can you tell what they are?

Is Donny collecting the audio/video clips again?




Do you mean some music, sorry I thought you meant a speaker above?


BTW - I sold some Behringer stuff to a local DJ today. We talked and he's got the cheapy Behringer B215XL's. He will let me try them next week. Have wanted to hear these for months now.
What did archaea do ? Link broken for me.

I'm collecting music but not picking it all. Joe and I thought everyone can pick one song. Eight songs total for our clips (around 25min).

Joe already wants hotel California .

Just post here what you want and ill get it.
chalugadp is online now  
post #11 of 124 Old 09-12-2014, 07:48 PM
Senior Member
 
tyee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 20
This is what he did!

I've got a clip I want to extract, in flac, this time, how long do you want clips to run?

Last edited by tyee; 09-12-2014 at 08:09 PM.
tyee is offline  
post #12 of 124 Old 09-12-2014, 08:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chalugadp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 5,346
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1093 Post(s)
Liked: 1081
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyee View Post
This is what he did!

I've got a clip I want to extract, in flac, this time, how long do you want clips to run?
I would wager 100$ I could tell the difference. I do believe bias exists and we will see how I do with the blind testing. I wanted to do blind testing for first gtg but wasn't possible . I can't believe the mackies are better then my minions. I can tell the difference easily between minions and 1099.

To me the 1099 or equivalent level speakers are high enough for me. I think there 95% as good as anything out their. My minions are about 85%. Very good but leaving me wanting a little more for mains. Will be awesome for surrounds

For music 3 minutes tops. Just tell me the song and the 3 minutes you want and I can do the rest easy.
chalugadp is online now  
post #13 of 124 Old 09-14-2014, 08:21 PM
Member
 
stsand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
So I'm thinking of hosting another GTG this October 25th to compare 4-5 different speakers. It's going to be a smaller GTG this time though with 8 guys including myself being the max. Right now I'm at 6 guys meaning I have two open spots for anyone that wants to come.


Right now I have myself and following guys in.
Tuxedocivic
stsand
chalugadp
WarrenBerry
tyee


So if anyone else is interested let me know.
I may be in New York for a family wedding. Won't know for sure for a another few weeks. I'm trying to get out of it .
stsand is offline  
post #14 of 124 Old 09-22-2014, 04:47 PM
Member
 
varneysa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 8
Hey Joe, have you reached out to Tom Vodhanel at Power Sound Audio about demoing his new MT-110 and MT-210 speakers at the GTG?

I was talking with him a couple of weeks ago and I mentioned how I'd ordered some Reaction Audio CX-15s/CX-8s. Tom said it'd be really cool to see how Jeremy's speakers compare with his. They're both compression driver designs coming out at the same time and it'd make one hell of a GTG to see how both compare with the JTRs. Just a thought
varneysa is offline  
post #15 of 124 Old 09-22-2014, 05:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
doublewing11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Timber Country!
Posts: 3,831
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Liked: 318
JB,

Are you a glutin for punishment? Another GTG?

You need a show stopper......ie Triad Golds!
doublewing11 is offline  
post #16 of 124 Old 09-22-2014, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 6,133
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 944 Post(s)
Liked: 1022
Quote:
Originally Posted by varneysa View Post
Hey Joe, have you reached out to Tom Vodhanel at Power Sound Audio about demoing his new MT-110 and MT-210 speakers at the GTG?

I was talking with him a couple of weeks ago and I mentioned how I'd ordered some Reaction Audio CX-15s/CX-8s. Tom said it'd be really cool to see how Jeremy's speakers compare with his. They're both compression driver designs coming out at the same time and it'd make one hell of a GTG to see how both compare with the JTRs. Just a thought
I have had a conversation with Tom about that and it could still possibly happen, but at the moment nothings set in stone because they are behind the gun getting parts in. I'm very familiar with there new design that they have coming out.
jbrown15 is online now  
post #17 of 124 Old 09-22-2014, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 6,133
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 944 Post(s)
Liked: 1022
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
JB,

Are you a glutin for punishment? Another GTG?

You need a show stopper......ie Triad Golds!
Is that your way of inviting yourself Cory and offering to bring your Triad Golds?.....lol
You already know that you have an open invite to any event that I'm hosting
jbrown15 is online now  
post #18 of 124 Old 09-22-2014, 05:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
doublewing11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Timber Country!
Posts: 3,831
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Liked: 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Is that your way of inviting yourself Cory and offering to bring your Triad Golds?.....lol
You already know that you have an open invite to any event that I'm hosting
Thanks, but I'm burned out on traveling! Last three weekends include LA, Bay Area, then to Boston. I've burned tickets to Denver for CEDIA because A. Getting tired of flying. B. Five hours on show floor wasn't worth losing more sleep. Still recovering........

BTW, would love sitting in a Prius for another 9 hours.......
doublewing11 is offline  
post #19 of 124 Old 09-22-2014, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 6,133
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 944 Post(s)
Liked: 1022
The format for this GTG has changed a little also, we are going to attempt to make this a double blind listening test to compare the speakers. We'll keep things simple and there'll only be four 3min songs per speaker and we'll run through them twice both times in random order. I wanted to keep the playlist and song lengths short so that it's easier for guys to recall what they hear from each song so that it's still fresh in their mind.


I think that we can knock out the blind listening part in 3 hours, once that's done we can have fun and get crazy with any of the speakers that guys want too.
jbrown15 is online now  
post #20 of 124 Old 09-24-2014, 08:59 AM
Member
 
stsand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 32
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Sucks that I'm missing this.
stsand is offline  
post #21 of 124 Old 10-04-2014, 05:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BassThatHz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: East side of NW Cascades
Posts: 3,078
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 311 Post(s)
Liked: 404
I'll see if I can clear my schedule for that week.

My primary goal is actually to measure the voltage of jbrown's IPR2 7.5k and nu6kDSP after the listening event is over.
I was supposed to do that last time I was there but we ran out of time measuring other gear.

I've never been to or hosted a blind test before, so it's all new to me. (Could be interesting.)
All I know is that I have Level ~8ish "Golden" Ears to offer up.


I don't really need better mains (if that's even possible)... so I suppose you could say I'm not in the business of needing or looking for better mains.
That would give me a unique position in a listening test such as this, coming from (potentially) better speakers makes me an overly-critical listener.
I'm not expecting any of these 5 sets of speakers to be able to match the 3500watts of bass that my towers have in my room (how could they).
All I can do is rate them based on what I know, and what I know is my own speakers.

I'd recommend that when rating speakers that you reserve at least 1 star for a speaker that sounds better than your own (or the best speaker you've heard to-date).
So I might rate a speaker that can match my own as 9 stars, and one that can exceed it as 9.1+
Adjust accordingly, but at least that way you will have some wiggle room.

If someone is coming from worse speakers say, then they might tend to be more impressed by the sound (even fully-blind), thus they might have a harder time rating the better-sounding speakers as a result.

Car analogy:
If someone owns a Bugatti , they would be a lot more critical on a Ford Taurus or even a Lambo and not give them full stars; their mind has become pampered over time.
Generally, people make their sound systems better over time, not worse, so given enough time and money people tend to become more and more picky over time. If they went back to hear the first system they bought when they were younger they'd probably vomit in their mouth. (haha ) Funny how that works!
Conversely, someone who owns a Taurus might always rate a Lambo at 11/10 stars, which might be an overinflated rating. This is why the more listeners you can do, the better, as they all bring their own mindset and experience. Eventually, given enough listeners, you can build an average rating profile for that speaker.

-my 2 cents
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Listen Skills Score6.png
Views:	353
Size:	12.0 KB
ID:	294946  

Last edited by BassThatHz; 10-04-2014 at 05:18 PM.
BassThatHz is offline  
post #22 of 124 Old 10-04-2014, 05:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BassThatHz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: East side of NW Cascades
Posts: 3,078
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 311 Post(s)
Liked: 404
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyee View Post
Do you have preamp outputs on your processor? I might bring a Yorkville SP12P Parasource speaker if there is room. It's active and I have RCA to XLR boxes to convert so that's no problem as long as your processor has pre outs?
He has a Pioneer VSX-21TXH, which has pre-outs; his amp supports both XLR and RCA so you shouldn't need a converter.

Not sure if he can support multiple active speakers at his front stage, probably not beyond two 2-way actives at most.
BassThatHz is offline  
post #23 of 124 Old 10-04-2014, 05:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chalugadp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 5,346
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1093 Post(s)
Liked: 1081
I don't know how your midrange could be as good as jtr 228 since your using cheap thrills driver. Yes your bass will be far superior but that's way down on my list. Midrange clarity and highs more important to me. Why don't you bring your mains ? Then you can see if your mains are as good as you have bragged about. Bring your stuff to power them.

No one other then you has heard your stuff. You said your mains are 30% better then joe's and my 1099. I call bullllshiiit. I predict with 80hz crossover to joe's subs that yours wont be rated higher then the 228s or the cx15 .

If I am wrong I will eat my words and buy you a case of beer of your choice
chalugadp is online now  
post #24 of 124 Old 10-04-2014, 10:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BassThatHz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: East side of NW Cascades
Posts: 3,078
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 311 Post(s)
Liked: 404
Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
I don't know how your midrange could be as good as jtr 228 since your using cheap thrills driver. Yes your bass will be far superior but that's way down on my list. Midrange clarity and highs more important to me. Why don't you bring your mains ? Then you can see if your mains are as good as you have bragged about. Bring your stuff to power them.

No one other then you has heard your stuff. You said your mains are 30% better then joe's and my 1099. I call bullllshiiit. I predict with 80hz crossover to joe's subs that yours wont be rated higher then the 228s or the cx15 .

If I am wrong I will eat my words and buy you a case of beer of your choice
Easier said than done. As per below.

I haven't finished the front baffle on them yet, they aren't fully done. But they already weigh more than I do, and I'm not strong enough to lift them already.
I had to install the drivers in-place, and haven't moved them since. They stand almost 6 feet tall, I didn't design the box to survive transportation. Yes my woodworking skills suck.
Filtering them at 80hz would completely cripple my speakers.
Car analogy: It would be like having a decent sports car but with a strict speed/acceleration limiter chip added.
I designed them to do be flat 15hz-20khz at THX Ultra2 SPL's as a 3-way with near-zero distortion.

It takes an entire day to wire up my system; something tells me that I don't think your guests would want to stand around waiting that long.

I had to disconnect and reconnect all of this just to bring my XSP-1 and Oppo 105 the last time I was at jbrown's. It took forever. At jbrowns, that was only 3 of these wires I brought!

The problem doesn't end there, you guys use speakon, I don't. Each speaker requires 12 conductors going to them.
All my wiring is in-wall (can't bring with me) = can't transport the speaker, not gonna work.


It would be easier for you guys to bring your stuff to my place than for me to move 60% of my system into your system.

Also, my crossover's are external and I haven't got around to building containers for them yet. Pretty hackish at the moment.

The SQ of the 228 was just fine, it was their dispersion/soundstage that I didn't like. Not sure if putting them behind a screen or double blinding fabric would change that characteristic or not; probably.

I'm not bragging about it. I heard what I heard. I'm not gonna lie and say I liked their dispersion characteristics.
They probably did have better mids, but I found their dispersion completely distracting (so maybe that's why I didn't notice their better mids ability?)

I haven't heard the 1099's yet though, so I can't say anything about those speakers yet.

I can't wait to fully complete my system so that you can hear what 20 subwoofers and 7 full range SEOS towers with 80,000watts sounds like!
Maybe you won't like it, I don't know...

I haven't finished it fully just yet, but it sounds good so far (to me).
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	SANY1150.JPG
Views:	314
Size:	303.7 KB
ID:	295114   Click image for larger version

Name:	fr.png
Views:	324
Size:	62.3 KB
ID:	295122  

Last edited by BassThatHz; 10-04-2014 at 10:32 PM.
BassThatHz is offline  
post #25 of 124 Old 10-04-2014, 10:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chalugadp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 5,346
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1093 Post(s)
Liked: 1081
Not sure how soundstage would be better with yours , but I haven't heard them so I don't know. Yeah no time to wire that much. Then you must have a gtg at your place this year.

As for your analogy to race cars I don't see it. Its like having a 400hp car in downtown Vancouver . Never going to use more then 80hp.

My humble 6000 watts of bass is easily capable of providing quality bass at up to reference level. I can't hit 130dbs like some here but I have no interest in doing that.

Hope you can make gtg. Will see blindfolded who likes what.
chalugadp is online now  
post #26 of 124 Old 10-04-2014, 10:27 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 6,133
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 944 Post(s)
Liked: 1022
Shawn, one thing I never really talked about when you were over listening to my 228's was the fact that I hardly had them toed in at all. I've found the more toe in you give them the bigger the sound stage gets. That might be part of the issue you were having with them.
jbrown15 is online now  
post #27 of 124 Old 10-04-2014, 10:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chalugadp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 5,346
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1093 Post(s)
Liked: 1081
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Shawn, one thing I never really talked about when you were over listening to my 228's was the fact that I hardly had them toed in at all. I've found the more toe in you give them the bigger the sound stage gets. That might be part of the issue you were having with them.
Have my 1099 toed in 40°.
Just watched that clip from super 8. With 3-6k eq down 1 db it sounded great. Biting but not screechy.
chalugadp is online now  
post #28 of 124 Old 10-04-2014, 10:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chalugadp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 5,346
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1093 Post(s)
Liked: 1081
You were right Joe . Latest transformers movie a dud. Only made it for an hour. Glad it was free
chalugadp is online now  
post #29 of 124 Old 10-04-2014, 10:53 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 6,133
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 944 Post(s)
Liked: 1022
Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
You were right Joe . Latest transformers movie a dud. Only made it for an hour. Glad it was free

Like I said I'm the last guy to call a movie bad, I'll usually watch just about anything. But Transformers 4 was terrible!...lol
That franchise has officially died!....lol
jbrown15 is online now  
post #30 of 124 Old 10-04-2014, 11:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chalugadp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 5,346
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1093 Post(s)
Liked: 1081
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Like I said I'm the last guy to call a movie bad, I'll usually watch just about anything. But Transformers 4 was terrible!...lol
That franchise has officially died!....lol
Never heard so many cheesy lines. I really like mark wahlberg , but can't believe he's hard up for money to take that role.
chalugadp is online now  
Reply Speakers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off