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2.0 or 2.1

2K views 61 replies 17 participants last post by  bluewizard 
#1 ·
Hi,
I use my Yamaha AVR for movies and its second zone output for my stereo speakers- 2.0 bookshelves with a 5´´ driver. I listen to rock music, so the bass is quite important.
Do you think just a pair of new floorstanders will be enough for me or should I buy new bookshelves with a bigger driver and add a subwoofer?

The second zone of course doesnt support 2.1 configuration. In that case I think a new AVR would be necessary for stereo.
Thanks for your advice.
 
#4 ·
Thank you guys,
OK so the best way for me is 2.1- some bigger bookshelves and a good sub.

But now I read this article:
Why Everybody Needs a Good Subwoofer…

and it says:
"it is virtually impossible to build a really good subwoofer (I mean good enough for a high-end music system) for under $1000"
I mean I thought there are some good subs even for less money?
 
#6 ·
But now I read this article:
Why Everybody Needs a Good Subwoofer…

and it says:
"it is virtually impossible to build a really good subwoofer (I mean good enough for a high-end music system) for under $1000"
I mean I thought there are some good subs even for less money?
That article is nonsense written by someone who is selling deleriously overpriced stuff. He is promoting Vandersteen subs. For $1000 you could build something that will run circles around Vandersteen's subs in every single respect.
Yes, there are subs you can buy for $1k that will be better for high end music systems than the subs that guy is selling.
 
#8 ·
In my opinion, you start to get pretty good subs at the $500 to $600 point. Rythmik LV12r Hsu VTF2 mk4. It depends on your desires, keep in mind. If you have a small room and just want a bit of bass to underscore the notes on jazz recordings, go for a SVS SB1000, that's $500. If you want something that brings strength to the lowest octave on a piano or pipe organ in a small to medium room, go for a Hsu VTF3 or SVS PB2000. A Reaction BPS215 might also be very good in this respect. At just above 1K you can get a Rythmik F15 or Hsu ULS-15. Above $1k, multiple subs setups also begin to be worth thinking about.
 
#9 · (Edited)
should I buy new bookshelves with a bigger driver and add a subwoofer?
Do subs first, then re-assess. You may not need better mains capacity. If you do you'll get a better result with a 2x5" speaker than a 1x6" speaker. For that matter a dual woofer speaker will nearly always be better than a single woofer speaker of the next larger woofer size.
As for subs, dual subs smooth room modes, a single sub can't, so in most cases a pair of $300 subs will work better than one $600 sub. And anyone who says you must spend $1000 or more for a sub is either seriously deluded or has an agenda that you don't want to take part in. The author of the article you read falls into both of those categories.
 
#17 ·
In my opinion, a Sub works best in a system that has Electronic Bass Management of both the Front and Sub speakers, which would include nearly all AV Receivers, but it seems a waste to use an multi-channel AV Receiver for just 2.0 or 2.1. A $500 AV Receiver is not remotely as good as a $500 Stereo amps because you money is spread very thinly in an AV Receiver.

Next, you listen to Rock and like bass, but are you a serious Bass Head, or are you just trying to make sure you system has nice bass. The question is about a matter of degrees. If you were into Electronic, techno, club type music then a Subwoofer would certainly be in order.

Myself, for the system you are describing, I would prefer a Stereo Amp with Floor-standing speakers, but then I don't speak for everyone.

There are advantages to a AV Receiver, but value isn't one of them. A $500 (as an illustration) spread across 7 amp channels is $71 per channel. A $500 Stereo amp spread across 2 channels is $250 per channel. Which sounds better, a $71 amp or a $250 amp? But an AV Receiver has built-in DAC, and Bass Management, plus typically Network Streaming of Audio. Which best serves you, only you can determine.

Now, you may have your reasons for choosing a AV Receiver, among those I've already mentioned. Fine, if that serves you best, your choice.

With Electronic Bass management, you can fine tune a Front/Sub combination very nicely. And yes, there is an advantage to larger Front bookshelf speakers over small bookshelf or satellite. You pretty much want a front bookshelf speaker capable of standing on it own without the Sub.

For what it is worth.

Steve/bluewizard
 
#22 · (Edited)
So then I suppose all speakers sound the same as well. Can you tell me why there is no sound difference between a AVR and a Stereo Amp? Surely, there must be some difference because there are different classes for amps.Class A, Class A/B, Class B, Class D, ICE amps, Triode amps, Gainclone amps etc.. Tube amps. Solid state amps.

Within your reason, there also must be no difference between Monoblocks and Stereo Amps.
Also, no difference between RAAL, Horns, Dome, Ribbons, custom fabric dome, silk dome, diamond tweeters tweeters. No difference between crossovers, no difference in wiring, silver, gold or copper, no difference in accuton, eminence drivers, no difference in impedence, sensitivity etc.

Basic 101 is, different parts used. Outcome will be different sound under any component.

These all sound the same? Time for some more listening rookie.


-peace
 
#27 ·
If all you are listening to is stereo, it will never be "2.1", even with an AVR with bass management. All it will be, in any configuration with a subwoofer, is 2.0 with a subwoofer augmenting the low-end. The difference will lie in whether you utilize a high-pass at the speakers or simply allow them to roll-off naturally with the subwoofer (hopefully) crossed in appropriately for either of those configurations. Running the speakers full-range and using the sub's own low-pass to cross it in may actually provide more flexibility than the fixed and only incrementally (i.e. 40, 60, 80, 100, etc.) adjustable crossover that an AVR provides.
 
#30 ·
There are many many people who have heard the difference between a fixed cost Stereo and an equal cost AV Receiver. AV Reciever typically have under-rated power supplies. A 700w AV Receiver will typically have a 500w Power Supply. There is logic behind that, but it doesn't change the fact that it is true. A typical 200w/ch Stereo amp will commonly have a 300w Power Supply.

How can you expect limited heat sink space to serve 7 amp, the the same heat sink space serves two amp in a Stereo.

Plus you have all the additional complex electronics found in an AV Receiver that you don't have in a Stereo amp. That degrades the per amp channel price even more. Even with economics of scale, you just can't expect a $50 to $60 amp to equal that of a $250 amp. No degree of economics of scale adds up to that.

But, an AV Receiver does have some advantages - Electronic Bass Management, Ease of connection to video related equipment. However, there are Stereo amps with built-in DAC and Network Streaming that minimize this difference.

If I have a choice between a $550 Yamaha AV Receiver and The $550 Yamaha RN500 AM/FM, Network Streaming, DAC-optical, coaxial, USB-media, 80w/ch, I'm taking the RN500.

If I want to go hard core, I will take the Yamaha AS500 85w/ch ($399) and a separate DAC. Or the Yamaha RS500, 75w/ch, AM/FM, plus an external DAC. Likely the external DAC will give me both USB-media and USB-PC as well as Optical and Coaxial.

Or the Harman Kardon HK3770 ($449) with 120w/ch, DAC (24b/192k) -Optical, Coaxial, USB, Wireless and Wired Network Streaming, Bluetooth, Massive Power Supplies, AM/FM, Phono.

Or the Yamaha RS700 with100w/ch for $499, plus an external DAC.

I have no interest in diluting my amp with many amps that I will never use, or diluting my speakers over many speakers that I don't need. However, I have nothing against other who do what to do these things. And I admit that there are connection advantages to a AV Receiver, but it is not the equal of a similar priced Stereo Amp.

Now if your AV Receiver is price up around $1500 or more, then you are into pretty nice amps. I heard some FOCAL speakers play on higher end AV Receivers and they sounded very good. But I would not expect that same sound quality on a $500 AV Receiver. In a $1500 AV Receiver each amp is worth about $215. With a $2000 AV Receiver, each amp is worth closer to $285, so reasonably they would sound like it.

But, if you are going for a 2.0 primarily music system ... then get a music system, meaning a stereo. Though if you actually want an AV Receiver - your money, your life - do as you please.

Steve/bluewizard
 
#32 ·
There are many many people who have heard the difference between a fixed cost Stereo and an equal cost AV Receiver. AV Reciever typically have under-rated power supplies. A 700w AV Receiver will typically have a 500w Power Supply. There is logic behind that, but it doesn't change the fact that it is true. A typical 200w/ch Stereo amp will commonly have a 300w Power Supply.
So smaller power supplies are better?
 
#38 ·
"The difference is that oddiophiles never arrive at their conclusions via blind testing, nor do they believe in specs."

A completely unfounded and unsupported statement, and the childish use of a term like "Oddiophiles" adds absolutely no credibility to your statement.

"...the same oddiophiles who buy Shakti Stones ..."


Again, completely unfounded and unsupported statement.

OK people ...by show of hands... how many have bought Shakti Stones?

How many people even know what Shakti Stones are?

I think you are going to see EXTREMELY few hands in the air.

Basically you are pointing your finger and going - nana-nana-na-na.

Try to raise your game.

Steve/bluewizard
 
#41 ·
I don't think people know how to tell tone,timbre, bass, speed, transparency, detail on this forum.
Yeah I think the two or three people going with "all CDP, DAC, pre-amp, integrated amp sound the same" have such low end gear, and/or deaf they cannot hear the difference.

If you have some budget speakers then change the source and integrated you won't heart the difference. I can tell the difference between three integrated brands I've had here, Roksan, Arcam, Audiolab. CDP- Rotel, Marantz, Rega.

It's best to leave the oddballs to their delusions, they have a stuck mindset they're unwilling to demo products (probably because shatter their mind) and just stuck in their ways. Use the same thinking when it comes to power amplifiers too, there is no difference between AVR and a quality integrated.
 
#42 ·
I used to be a proponent of "all amps sound the same", but I heard a very noticeable improvement in the sound, especially the bass (not just volume, but the bass was much deeper), from replacing my shelf stereo amp with a vintage Technics amp that is making me seriously doubt that all amps sound the same.

One day I need to A/B the Technics with my Denon X4000.
 
#43 ·
I used to be a proponent of "all amps sound the same", but I heard a very noticeable improvement in the sound, especially the bass (not just volume, but the bass was much deeper), from replacing my shelf stereo amp with a vintage Technics amp that is making me seriously doubt that all amps sound the same.
All amps don't sound the same. There are differences based on their frequency response, power capacity, THD and so forth. If they don't have similar specs they will sound different. If they sound different then their specs are different. But by the same token if they do have similar specs they'll sound similar, and if they have identical specs, or the differences are closer than what our ears can detect, they'll sound the same. By no means does the price tag constitute a spec.
 
#44 · (Edited)
Hey, all.
I know some of you say I should first try my stereo 5 inch speakers with a sub, but I wanna know what you think is a 5 inch driver enough for the stereo pair with a sub, or there is a reason to go up, say 6.5inch speakers with a sub? I think my 5 inch speakers with a sub will be enogh but maybe 6.5 inch speakers could help?
 
#45 ·
Well, this thread degenerated fast...



You already have an AVR with a second zone and speaker wire that runs to that second zone...
Get a subwoofer with speaker level inputs, then feed your current bookshelf speakers off of the sub's high-passed speaker level outputs.
 
#55 · (Edited)
Are you saying the the crossover dial on them doesn't work for speaker level inputs?

Look, he already has stereo content running to the other room via speaker wires. Are you saying that a sub with speaker level inputs wouldn't work for him? Lots of audiophile swear by it.

EDIT: Heck, even the entry-level Hsu VTF-1 has speaker level inputs and outputs and a crossover frequency dial. Are you saying it doesn't work?
 
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