JBL/Harman Pro-Cinema Atmos Demo at CEDIA 2014 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 14Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 51 Old 09-17-2014, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Writer @ AVS
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 5,636
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1102 Post(s)
Liked: 2261
JBL/Harman Pro-Cinema Atmos Demo at CEDIA 2014



JBL didn't bother with consumer Atmos systems. Instead, the company demonstrated a system more suited to a commercial cinema.

I'd heard the rumors that JBL's Atmos demo was not to be missed; it was so popular, the company only granted admission if you had a ticket—and those went fast. When I finally caught the demo on the last day of the show, the JBL rep told me, "You'll need a friend in Hollywood to use one of these in your home theater." He was referring to the demo's source component, a Dolby DSS220 Screen Server—a device that you will typically find in a commercial movie theater. It fed content to a Dolby CP850 64-channel digital-cinema Atmos processor; another device aimed at the pros. JBL used 31 of the CP850's 64 channels in its demo, including 12 overhead.


This server/processor combo is for commercial cinema.

Three JBL M2 Master Reference Monitors handled the front stage (LCR), and bass came from eight S2S-EX subwoofers, which are rated to play down to 35 Hz. The immersive-audio duties were handled by 28 JBL SCS8 (8" Spatially Cued Surround) speakers, 12 of which were mounted on the ceiling. It was a system you might find in a modest-sized commercial movie theater, or perhaps a Hollywood screening room, but crammed into a demo room that sat around 14 people.


The mighty and impressive JBL M2 Master Reference Monitor, on the left, took care of L/C/R duties.

The demo itself consisted of 2K content playing through a $45,000 NEC NC900C 2K projector provided by Digital Projection. That projector cast its light upon a 17-foot-wide, 2.39:1, acoustically transparent ClearPix 4K screen from Screen Research. The content included several Dolby-produced trailers that I'd seen a number of times already: Leaf, Conductor, and Unfold. It also included a Red Bull F1 racing short. Additionally, the demo included trailers for both Gravity and The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug. The cinematic trailers provided a sense of how Atmos worked with real content, as opposed to the explicitly apparent effects in Dolby's trailers.


There was no shortage of SCS8 surround speakers, which were laser-aligned for optimum dispersion.


I'd love to say it was the best Atmos demo at the show, since that's what I heard from other attendees. However, it was not even the second-best Atmos demo in my opinion. While it was loud, and it was clear, it lacked several qualities that I heard in the best Atmos demos. First, I had an issue with the bass. Commercial subs can't dig deep enough to play actual full range, defined as 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz. The output of the S2S-EX subs used in the demo starts to drop off dramatically below 30 Hz. I noticed the difference right away; the bass in the JBL demo was rough and tough, but it did not take you deep into the abyss—unlike the demos from GoldenEar, Steinway Lyngdorf, and even Integra.


The use of eight of these S2S-EX subs didn't quite make up for their limited deep bass extension.

What JBL did manage to do in the demo was unsurprising—it cranked the volume to produce peaks as high as 105 dB (C-weighted with 0.5-second averaging), presumably in order to blow away the audience with a good chunk of the 19 kilowatts of power on tap. The system was unquestionably powerful; the wooden risers shook the seats, which in turn shook our rumps. The screen roared, and the 28-speaker Atmos array did its thing. The speakers were driven by JBL's new Crown-powered SDA-8300 and SDA-4600 Synthesis power amps, with four of each model in the system. The SDA-8300 is an eight-channel amp that outputs 300 watts/channel into 8 ohms, while the four-channel SDA-4600 feeds 600 watts/channel into 8 ohms. An SDEC4500 took care of EQ, crossover, and bass-management duties. But was it immersive? Did it beat the best home theaters I've heard?

When it was all over, I thought to myself, "Man, I've been spoiled by some those AVS HToM systems I've experienced over the past year." Even my own system jades me; it can effortlessly reach the same levels, but it can also dig a lot deeper. Importantly, other Atmos demos at CEDIA 2014 already established a very high bar for audio fidelity, one that JBL did not clear. Notably, the Steinway Lyngdorf demo nailed what Atmos should sound like in a 15- or 20-seat venue.

I'm not a fan of the kind of sound I hear in movie theaters, and yet that's what JBL brought to the show—in spades. The fault does not lie in the speakers themselves; I've heard the M2s in a studio setting and they are truly excellent at what they do. I think the main issue was that filtered, commercial-cinema bass and the volume level. The combination of shallow yet overpowering bass and blaring volume took me out of the immersive envelope. It reminded me, yet again, why I no longer watch movies in commercial cinemas—they present sound in an unrealistic manner. I much prefer natural volume levels and full-range bass reproduction to overly loud audio and subwoofers with bass that falls off rapidly below 35 Hz. To its credit, the JBL system produced plenty of that chest-slam feeling that is the bread-and-butter bass sensation of many live concerts.

Please keep in mind that I base my criticism of the JBL demo on my personal preferences. It was quite clear that many people enjoyed the JBL/Harman Atmos demo a great deal. It's hard not to be impressed by that many speakers playing loud and clean. However, it's worth remembering that the home Atmos experience is designed to offer the same quality as the commercial version—Dolby insists that Atmos loses nothing in the translation. That goes a long way toward explaining how an Integra pre/pro powering a GoldenEar speaker system could blow away the JBL demo in terms of clarity and dynamics, albeit in a smaller space. It also explains how Steinway Lyngdorf was able to conjure up a truly immersive 3D soundfield and bass that was notably tighter, deeper, and more impacting than the JBL demo.

Unlike JBL's system, you do not need a friend in Hollywood to use any of the other Atmos systems demoed at the show. JBL's entire system cost around $200,000, with about 75% of that in the sound system. Considering that the Steinway Lyngdorf system cost less than JBL's, I cannot see much value in the Atmos demo JBL chose to present at CEDIA 2014. By the time I got to JBL's demo, I was spoiled by what I'd already heard.

Like AVS Forum on Facebook
Follow AVS Forum on Twitter
+1 AVS Forum on Google+

Back to AVS Coverage of CEDIA Expo 2014

Find out more about Mark Henninger at
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
imagic is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 51 Old 09-17-2014, 11:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,611
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked: 207
Thanks Mark! Sounds like it kinda sucked, lol. I would have expected JBL to pull off something better than that. Particularly with their much lauded bass management systems, such as Sound Field Management. It appears they were compensating for their anemic bass with volume and that always sounds like crap.

CHT SHO-10 x 5 powered by Denon 4311 and Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3
Gooddoc is offline  
post #3 of 51 Old 09-17-2014, 12:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Dan Hitchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Northern Colorado
Posts: 8,812
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 694 Post(s)
Liked: 415
What really disappointed me was the dialog reproduction quality. It wasn't very good. I heard better, more articulate vocals in some of the better consumer based Atmos demos. Except for the F1 short, the Atmos effect, to me, was pretty subdued and I heard better use of the surrounds with Dolby's own trailers at other presentations.

Steinway and Auro's demos had much better sounding speakers. Auro used mostly matching James Loudspeakers all over and they were outstanding.
imagic likes this.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
Dan Hitchman is offline  
post #4 of 51 Old 09-17-2014, 12:40 PM
Senior Member
 
DRaven72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Wolverine Lake, Mi
Posts: 378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
. The combination of shallow yet overpowering bass and blaring volume took me out of the immersive envelope. It reminded me, yet again, why I no longer watch movies in commercial cinemas—they present sound in an unrealistic manner. I much prefer natural volume levels and full-range bass reproduction to overly loud audio and subwoofers with bass that falls off rapidly below 35 Hz.


Nice write up. This is exactly how I felt when watching Transformers:AoE that my daughter insisted we see at the theater in Dolby Atmos. I was cringing at the high piercing sounds and had to cover my ears in a few scenes, well a lot. I don't like sound screaming at high at me. I like crisp, detailed sound. If I need earthshattering bass, that's what Bass Shakers for theater chairs/furniture are for. Since that last movie, I honestly don't want to go back to theaters because of this and haven't been. JBL is great for blaring out sound at clubs and venues a like and I don't think a single club I worked at back in the day didn't use JBL loudspeakers. But that's all they ever were to me, LOUD.


Thanks for the right up imagic/Mark. Glad to know that there are others that are tired of "blaring" sound.

Cool Beans.
DRaven72 is offline  
post #5 of 51 Old 09-17-2014, 01:12 PM
Advanced Member
 
Woobieizer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Good Ole' Copper Fan
Posts: 953
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 211 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Paid all that money just for a teaser? REFUND!!!!

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	we'er bad.jpg
Views:	1468
Size:	33.5 KB
ID:	266906  
Woobieizer is offline  
post #6 of 51 Old 09-17-2014, 01:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ddingle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Mahtomedi,Minnesota
Posts: 1,100
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post


JBL didn't bother with consumer Atmos systems. Instead, the company demonstrated a system more suited to a commercial cinema.

I'd heard the rumors that JBL's Atmos demo was not to be missed; it was so popular, the company only granted admission if you had a ticket—and those went fast. When I finally caught the demo on the last day of the show, the JBL rep told me, "You'll need a friend in Hollywood to use one of these in your home theater." He was referring to the demo's source component, a Dolby DSS220 Screen Server—a device that you will typically find in a commercial movie theater. It fed content to a Dolby CP850 64-channel digital-cinema Atmos processor; another device aimed at the pros. JBL used 31 of the CP850's 64 channels in its demo, including 12 overhead.


This server/processor combo is for commercial cinema.

Three JBL M2 Master Reference Monitors handled the front stage (LCR), and bass came from eight S2S-EX subwoofers, which are rated to play down to 35 Hz. The immersive-audio duties were handled by 28 JBL SCS8 (8" Spatially Cued Surround) speakers, 12 of which were mounted on the ceiling. It was a system you might find in a modest-sized commercial movie theater, or perhaps a Hollywood screening room, but crammed into a demo room that sat around 14 people.


The mighty and impressive JBL M2 Master Reference Monitor, on the left, took care of L/C/R duties.

The demo itself consisted of 2K content playing through a $45,000 NEC NC900C 2K projector provided by Digital Projection. That projector cast its light upon a 17-foot-wide, 2.39:1, acoustically transparent ClearPix 4K screen from Screen Research. The content included several Dolby-produced trailers that I'd seen a number of times already: Leaf, Conductor, and Unfold. It also included a Red Bull F1 racing short. Additionally, the demo included trailers for both Gravity and The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug. The cinematic trailers provided a sense of how Atmos worked with real content, as opposed to the explicitly apparent effects in Dolby's trailers.


There was no shortage of SCS8 surround speakers, which were laser-aligned for optimum dispersion.


I'd love to say it was the best Atmos demo at the show, since that's what I heard from other attendees. However, it was not even the second-best Atmos demo in my opinion. While it was loud, and it was clear, it lacked several qualities that I heard in the best Atmos demos. First, I had an issue with the bass. Commercial subs can't dig deep enough to play actual full range, defined as 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz. The output of the S2S-EX subs used in the demo starts to drop off dramatically below 30 Hz. I noticed the difference right away; the bass in the JBL demo was rough and tough, but it did not take you deep into the abyss—unlike the demos from GoldenEar, Steinway Lyngdorf, and even Integra.


The use of eight of these S2S-EX subs didn't quite make up for their limited deep bass extension.

What JBL did manage to do in the demo was unsurprising—it cranked the volume to produce peaks as high as 105 dB (C-weighted with 0.5-second averaging), presumably in order to blow away the audience with a good chunk of the 19 kilowatts of power on tap. The system was unquestionably powerful; the wooden risers shook the seats, which in turn shook our rumps. The screen roared, and the 28-speaker Atmos array did its thing. The speakers were driven by JBL's new Crown-powered SDA-8300 and SDA-4600 Synthesis power amps, with four of each model in the system. The SDA-8300 is an eight-channel amp that outputs 300 watts/channel into 8 ohms, while the four-channel SDA-4600 feeds 600 watts/channel into 8 ohms. An SDEC4500 took care of EQ, crossover, and bass-management duties. But was it immersive? Did it beat the best home theaters I've heard?

When it was all over, I thought to myself, "Man, I've been spoiled by some those AVS HToM systems I've experienced over the past year." Even my own system jades me; it can effortlessly reach the same levels, but it can also dig a lot deeper. Importantly, other Atmos demos at CEDIA 2014 already established a very high bar for audio fidelity, one that JBL did not clear. Notably, the Steinway Lyngdorf demo nailed what Atmos should sound like in a 15- or 20-seat venue.

I'm not a fan of the kind of sound I hear in movie theaters, and yet that's what JBL brought to the show—in spades. The fault does not lie in the speakers themselves; I've heard the M2s in a studio setting and they are truly excellent at what they do. I think the main issue was that filtered, commercial-cinema bass and the volume level. The combination of shallow yet overpowering bass and blaring volume took me out of the immersive envelope. It reminded me, yet again, why I no longer watch movies in commercial cinemas—they present sound in an unrealistic manner. I much prefer natural volume levels and full-range bass reproduction to overly loud audio and subwoofers with bass that falls off rapidly below 35 Hz. To its credit, the JBL system produced plenty of that chest-slam feeling that is the bread-and-butter bass sensation of many live concerts.

Please keep in mind that I base my criticism of the JBL demo on my personal preferences. It was quite clear that many people enjoyed the JBL/Harman Atmos demo a great deal. It's hard not to be impressed by that many speakers playing loud and clean. However, it's worth remembering that the home Atmos experience is designed to offer the same quality as the commercial version—Dolby insists that Atmos loses nothing in the translation. That goes a long way toward explaining how an Integra pre/pro powering a GoldenEar speaker system could blow away the JBL demo in terms of clarity and dynamics, albeit in a smaller space. It also explains how Steinway Lyngdorf was able to conjure up a truly immersive 3D soundfield and bass that was notably tighter, deeper, and more impacting than the JBL demo.

Unlike JBL's system, you do not need a friend in Hollywood to use any of the other Atmos systems demoed at the show. JBL's entire system cost around $200,000, with about 75% of that in the sound system. Considering that the Steinway Lyngdorf system cost less than JBL's, I cannot see much value in the Atmos demo JBL chose to present at CEDIA 2014. By the time I got to JBL's demo, I was spoiled by what I'd already heard.

Like AVS Forum on Facebook
Follow AVS Forum on Twitter
+1 AVS Forum on Google+

Back to AVS Coverage of CEDIA Expo 2014
I agree. I plugged my ears for most of the demo. Too Loud. I went to the Wisdom Datacast demo directly after and it was much better. Not Atmos,and still loud,but it was easy to listen to. Super articulate especially the bass.
ddingle is offline  
post #7 of 51 Old 09-17-2014, 01:35 PM
Advanced Member
 
javanpohl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 997
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 61 Post(s)
Liked: 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I'm not a fan of the kind of sound I hear in movie theaters, and yet that's what JBL brought to the show—in spades.
Glad I'm not the only one. I'm always perplexed by reviewers who attempt to grant superlative praise on home theater speakers by saying "they sounded like the best commercial cinema". Really? They had terrible soundstaging abilities? Poor bass extension? Sure, cinema speakers are incredibly dynamic, they can go to ear-splitting levels, their sound has force behind it. But really good speakers can do that and sound great in other aspects. They can resolve fine levels of detail. They can create a sense of spacious just in the sound.

I didn't check out the Synthesis demo this year, even if I was stopping by the high-end demos, I wouldn't have. I experienced a synthesis demo at CEDIA 3 or 4 years ago, and I don't care to again. It was loud, clean, and forceful, but that was about it. That year everyone was using the Open Range shoot-out as the demo. JBL did... and dARTS did. Whereas JBL sounded like a movie theater, dARTS sounded real.

After that day, Synthesis joined Bose in my "not quite deserving of their praise/pricetag" category. 'Cause if loud is all you're going after, there are much cheaper ways to get Synthesis levels of performance.
javanpohl is offline  
post #8 of 51 Old 09-17-2014, 02:01 PM
Member
 
DocOrange88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 79
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 24
I would debate, that creating a setup that matches theaters sound is a great plan however personal tastes will always effect how we setup our theaters.

I for one in my current situation prefer strong punchy bass over boomy deep bass. I want to feel the hits and not shake and rumble every second. I think I would personally tailor my future to adding some boomy but keeping it lower and setting up some subwoofers to punch hard vs boom.

The real question is this a reference setup could you mix a Atmos film with this setup take it to a Atmos theater and have it sound as you mixed it. I care about that more than anything else when it comes to setups. Then again I've mixed a 5.1 surround sound so I like to know what I'm hearing at home, I'll hear anywhere regardless of the setup and match what I'd hear in a theater(at a minimum).

Great write up by the way, love it!
DocOrange88 is offline  
post #9 of 51 Old 09-17-2014, 02:03 PM
Advanced Member
 
CinemaAndy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Texas
Posts: 525
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 321 Post(s)
Liked: 71
Ok i have to say "yawn" here. Next.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
CinemaAndy is offline  
post #10 of 51 Old 09-17-2014, 03:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
NorthSky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Canada - West Island: Vancouver, South Direction: Go East
Posts: 2,427
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1069 Post(s)
Liked: 377
Hey what's going on here; JBL is from the pro people (Synthesis REQ system, Harman Kardon, Lexicon, Revel, Mr. Olive, Mr. O'Toole, pro acousticians, pro installers for the high-end clientele, pro sound, pro home theaters, ...) who are supposed to be some of the very best in this industry.

Where are all the flowers gone!

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
NorthSky is offline  
post #11 of 51 Old 09-17-2014, 03:15 PM
Senior Member
 
Orbitron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 452
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 151 Post(s)
Liked: 114
Other than reading a review of a particular demo and how it sounded in that room, i don't know how to evaluate and compare all these demos or which i would want to implement in my home.

Each room had it's own room acoustics and treaments or lack thereof, different speakers, different speaker arrangements, electronics, calibrations, processing etc. etc.

Regardless, good stuff Mark.
Orbitron is offline  
post #12 of 51 Old 09-17-2014, 05:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
adidino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 4,216
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 48
It was a cool demo. One of my favorites at the show but I agree. Steinway RP was prob the best IMO. Which convinced me to keep my Mcintosh MX151 for a little longer.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Owner, AudioXtream.
Authorized Dealer for Kef, Triad, Bryston, Auralic, Audeze, Grado, Audioquest, Marantz
adidino is offline  
post #13 of 51 Old 09-17-2014, 08:18 PM
Member
 
Ted C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 22
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I think part of the problem was the shear amount of drivers in the room, very unrealistic for the size for sure. I thought the LCR presentation was excellent, at least from where I was sitting.

So what did you think about the Wisdom demo? I thought it was amazing despite not being ATMOS. I loved the complex reproduction of the dragon's voice and the Muse "Madness" clip at the end. The dragon's voice due to its frequencies is very hard to reproduce faithfully.
Ted C is offline  
post #14 of 51 Old 09-17-2014, 09:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Cam Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Tucson, AZ & Los Angeles,CA, USA
Posts: 2,503
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Liked: 95
I was not at the show this year, but I had a dealer invite to this demo. I am somewhat surprised at Mark's experience, but maybe not so much. Although I've experienced and worked with Synthesis systems and almost always been extremely impressed, I've also experienced demos that were painful. Ironically, I had the pleasure of seeing FOTR in 2002 in The Stag Theater at Skywalker Ranch on an employee screening night. Despite it being considered a reference theater, it was excruciatingly loud; painful therefore of low value to me.

As for comparing the sound of the best cinemas to home systems, that's apples and oranges. You can't make HT speakers work in that huge environment. Vice versa may or may not be true. There are those on AVS who swear by pro cinema stacks in their larger rooms.

I think that it is likely that the CEDIA demo team failed to realize that powerful subtly is not an undesirable hi-fi trait/characteristic. I suspect that at -10dB it would have been a far more impressive experience. Maybe it was a bit too much butter spread on too little toast.

I can possibly speak to Mark's concerns about LF performance in the room. The S2S-EX is a new product just becoming available. It might be a misprint, but the specs in the dealer info on this sub describe it as a THX Ultra sub, not a THX Ultra2 sub. I can't imagine that THX would resurrect the old Ultra spec for a new product, but it sounds as though they may have. There are not data sheets yet on the sub to verify. What Mark describes for the LF experience in the room sounds very much like a system with THX Ultra subs. The Ultra spec presumed a normal size room and accompanying room gain of 12dB per octave. A THX Ultra sub rolls off at 12dB per octave beginning at about 40Hz. The electroacoustic goal was flat response in a "small room." The Ultra2 spec is flat to 20Hz. That demo room was not small, and I doubt that room gain was a player, therefore the S2S-EX not a good choice. If the room had been populated with S1S-EX subs (Ultra2), I suspect that Mark would have had a different LF experience. The S1S-EX sub is considered a great one. Not sure where the new S2S-EX sub is supposed to fit in the market.

As to needing a friend in Hollywood to have the Dolby Atmos cinema gear in your theater, not true. You just need his formidable financial status. My newest dealer info packet from Harman/JBL for summer 2014 confirms these Dolby Atmos cinema products are all now available. Sounds like training is coming up.

Last edited by Cam Man; 09-17-2014 at 09:20 PM.
Cam Man is offline  
post #15 of 51 Old 09-17-2014, 09:25 PM
Advanced Member
 
RLBURNSIDE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 782
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Liked: 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
This image makes me wonder if a decent alternative for ceiling-mounted speakers would be height speakers on the walls only, angled downwards towards the seating area.

I know I have my listening-level speakers at ear level (or roughly), not at 2/3 up the wall as the surrounds are in this pic. I'd prefer keeping them ear level.

I am starting to think that the first year's Atmos releases will not be optimal towards arbitrary speaker placement for the height channels, or even the 7.1 or 5.1 bed channels.
RLBURNSIDE is offline  
post #16 of 51 Old Yesterday, 03:28 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 64
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 9
Mark,

Thanks for the report, very informing! I had looked up those subs myself and was surprised by their limited extention. Those M2's are disappointing for their price then?

You write the SCS 8 were "laser positioned". One can ofcourse only laser to a single MLP. My approach would be differerent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DocOrange88 View Post
I would debate, that creating a setup that matches theaters sound is a great plan however personal tastes will always effect how we setup our theaters.

The real question is this a reference setup could you mix a Atmos film with this setup take it to a Atmos theater and have it sound as you mixed it. I care about that more than anything else when it comes to setups. Then again I've mixed a 5.1 surround sound so I like to know what I'm hearing at home, I'll hear anywhere regardless of the setup and match what I'd hear in a theater(at a minimum).
Good points, doc. I have seen the pics of that Polish space where they work on Atmos moviesound. They had a full JBLpro setup also, but with LCR from the cinema division instead of the M2.
pletwals is online now  
post #17 of 51 Old Yesterday, 03:32 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 64
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
This image makes me wonder if a decent alternative for ceiling-mounted speakers would be height speakers on the walls only, angled downwards towards the seating area.

I know I have my listening-level speakers at ear level (or roughly), not at 2/3 up the wall as the surrounds are in this pic. I'd prefer keeping them ear level.

I am starting to think that the first year's Atmos releases will not be optimal towards arbitrary speaker placement for the height channels, or even the 7.1 or 5.1 bed channels.
JBL showed a commercial Atmos setup. The elevation of the surrounds determines where the ceiling mounts go. The higher the surrounds, the more closer to the center of the room the ceiling mounts will go.

At home, if your surrounds are at ear level and your room is rather tall and narrow, your elevated speakers could very well be against the wall.
RLBURNSIDE likes this.
pletwals is online now  
post #18 of 51 Old Yesterday, 05:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,611
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked: 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by pletwals View Post
Mark,

Thanks for the report, very informing! I had looked up those subs myself and was surprised by their limited extention. Those M2's are disappointing for their price then?

You write the SCS 8 were "laser positioned". One can ofcourse only laser to a single MLP. My approach would be differerent.




Good points, doc. I have seen the pics of that Polish space where they work on Atmos moviesound. They had a full JBLpro setup also, but with LCR from the cinema division instead of the M2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
The fault does not lie in the speakers themselves; I've heard the M2s in a studio setting and they are truly excellent at what they do.....

I much prefer natural volume levels and full-range bass reproduction to overly loud audio and subwoofers with bass that falls off....

Please keep in mind that I base my criticism of the JBL demo on my personal preferences. It was quite clear that many people enjoyed the JBL/Harman Atmos demo a great deal. It's hard not to be impressed by that many speakers playing loud and clean.
I think he made it clear he was not faulting the M2's.
At least from my own personal experience listening to the M2's I can say that I've never heard a better speaker. I think they're priced competitively with speakers that might compete with them for SQ. But in full disclosure I bought them. If I'd heard anything that was as good for less, I would have bought them instead. But any speaker is only worth as much as you're willing to pay for it.

CHT SHO-10 x 5 powered by Denon 4311 and Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3
Gooddoc is offline  
post #19 of 51 Old Yesterday, 06:58 AM
The Truth Hz
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 7,397
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 444 Post(s)
Liked: 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I think he made it clear he was not faulting the M2's.
At least from my own personal experience listening to the M2's I can say that I've never heard a better speaker. I think they're priced competitively with speakers that might compete with them for SQ. But in full disclosure I bought them. If I'd heard anything that was as good for less, I would have bought them instead. But any speaker is only worth as much as you're willing to pay for it.
There you go, defending your speakers again...Haha. j/k. I am not surprised by the results really. Harman has its "way" of calibrating things, but that doesn't their speakers can't perform differently, as Mark stated in regards to his experience with the M2's in a studio setting.

FWIW, I feel as if when demos are done above any person's comfort zone, or threshold, the experience is IMMEDIATELY going to be negative, or at best, compromised. I felt this way the first time I went into our new RPX theater for the first Avengers. The sound was "ok," but excruciating at times. And this is from a guy that regularly listens to music, and often movies, at reference in my HT. My experience with the theater at that point was already bad, and I haven't gone back. Even more, once Avengers came out on BD, I ran it at reference in my space and was brought back to how the soundtrack should have been presented. What all was different? Who could know really, without testing the theater's response and spl levels. But I went from thinking the soundtrack for Avengers was garbage, to thinking it was actually pretty impressive (minus the whole 30hz filter thing).

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

"If you done it, it ain't bragging." ~ Walt Whitman

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

beastaudio is offline  
post #20 of 51 Old Yesterday, 07:11 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,611
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked: 207
@beastaudio

Hehe. Yea, can't let anyone dump on my M2's, lol.

Seriously though, I know that the M2's are not the best cinema speaker out there, but I know it is competent enough in that role for me and it will compete favorably with the best - if not win. I don't listen critically to cinema.

But in a music shootout, my money is on the M2 .

I am looking forward to the Thrilla at Gorilla since I'll actually only fully believe my own rhetoric until after a blind comparo. I may be biased, but not ignorant of it.
imagic likes this.

CHT SHO-10 x 5 powered by Denon 4311 and Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3
Gooddoc is offline  
post #21 of 51 Old Yesterday, 07:18 AM
The Truth Hz
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 7,397
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 444 Post(s)
Liked: 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
@beastaudio

Hehe. Yea, can't let anyone dump on my M2's, lol.

Seriously though, I know that the M2's are not the best cinema speaker out there, but I know it is competent enough in that role for me and it will compete favorably with the best - if not win. I don't listen critically to cinema.

But in a music shootout, my money is on the M2 .

I am looking forward to the Thrilla at Gorilla since I'll actually only fully believe my own rhetoric until after a blind comparo. I may be biased, but not ignorant of it.
I am refusing to go blind again. That was the highest stress outside of my job I have had in quite some time, having my own skin in the game the last go-round. It didn't help that I had rilla and PL in my ear the whole time telling me that every speaker sounded like "Point source"
imagic likes this.

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

"If you done it, it ain't bragging." ~ Walt Whitman

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

beastaudio is offline  
post #22 of 51 Old Yesterday, 07:28 AM
Señor Member
 
RMK!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 95608
Posts: 5,850
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 177 Post(s)
Liked: 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
@beastaudio

Hehe. Yea, can't let anyone dump on my M2's, lol.

Seriously though, I know that the M2's are not the best cinema speaker out there, but I know it is competent enough in that role for me and it will compete favorably with the best - if not win. I don't listen critically to cinema.

But in a music shootout, my money is on the M2 .

I am looking forward to the Thrilla at Gorilla since I'll actually only fully believe my own rhetoric until after a blind comparo. I may be biased, but not ignorant of it.
You my friend are a world class Evangelist ...

Yeaha!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"Well, la di fricken da."!
RMK! is offline  
post #23 of 51 Old Yesterday, 07:37 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 22,761
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 163 Post(s)
Liked: 816
I usually like Mark's articles and threads, this might be the only one ever I hate. He must have been in a bad mood or something because it's excessively slanted towards negativity of an otherwise excellent JBL demo.

I do agree about the 30hz roll off, that's just how commercial cinema stuff is though. We all know that. What was surprising was the bass was otherwise powerful and pretty good, minus that missing subsonic octave. The presenter explained in my demo they used 8 of those 18" drivers to get smooth bass, they didn't need it louder. Seat to seat variation was 1db. Hard to hate on that.

Compared to the Procella demo the bass was way better, it didn't sound small. Even missing the sub 30hz stuff. The Steinway sounded neutered. It really did. That system only played the LCR and other speakers down to 200hz, and before they confirmed that I was suspicious and could tell. Play me a 200hz sine wave and I'll point out the source in any room. I would never choose that system over the JBL system, even without the JBL electronics and screen. The golden ear demo wasn't good either, it was not even 7.1. I thought they had the rears wired wrong as the sound kind of jumped from location to location , it didn't have the special spacial element that the JBL demo had.

To me the JBL demo was best of CEDIA for an Atmos demo. It was really obvious too. The room was better designed and treated than any of the others, and the speakers were more capable. The dynamics of that room where on another level. I'm really surprised at this thread actually. Really surprised.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is online now  
post #24 of 51 Old Yesterday, 07:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mtbdudex's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 4,346
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 214
Mark - thx for write up, you put me in the demo.
Shows that with good planning and execution a dedicated room Home Theater experience can match and exceed the Cinema experience.

Mike R,P.E. clickable DIY hot links:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
..
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
..
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
..
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
..
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
..
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
mtbdudex is offline  
post #25 of 51 Old Yesterday, 07:41 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,611
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked: 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I usually like Mark's articles and threads, this might be the only one ever I hate. He must have been in a bad mood or something because it's excessively slanted towards negativity of an otherwise excellent JBL demo.

I do agree about the 30hz roll off, that's just how commercial cinema stuff is though. We all know that. What was surprising was the bass was otherwise powerful and pretty good, minus that missing subsonic octave. The presenter explained in my demo they used 8 of those 18" drivers to get smooth bass, they didn't need it louder. Seat to seat variation was 1db. Hard to hate on that.

Compared to the Procella demo the bass was way better, it didn't sound small. Even missing the sub 30hz stuff. The Steinway sounded neutered. It really did. That system only played the LCR and other speakers down to 200hz, and before they confirmed that I was suspicious and could tell. Play me a 200hz sine wave and I'll point out the source in any room. I would never choose that system over the JBL system, even without the JBL electronics and screen. The golden ear demo wasn't good either, it was not even 7.1. I thought they had the rears wired wrong as the sound kind of jumped from location to location , it didn't have the special spacial element that the JBL demo had.

To me the JBL demo was best of CEDIA for an Atmos demo. It was really obvious too. The room was better designed and treated than any of the others, and the speakers were more capable. The dynamics of that room where on another level. I'm really surprised at this thread actually. Really surprised.


^^^Ha! Take that @RMK!
RMK! likes this.

CHT SHO-10 x 5 powered by Denon 4311 and Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3
Gooddoc is offline  
post #26 of 51 Old Yesterday, 07:43 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,611
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked: 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
I am refusing to go blind again. That was the highest stress outside of my job I have had in quite some time, having my own skin in the game the last go-round. It didn't help that I had rilla and PL in my ear the whole time telling me that every speaker sounded like "Point source"
Yea, blind is surprisingly stressful if you have skin in the game!

But it is TRUTH...

CHT SHO-10 x 5 powered by Denon 4311 and Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3

Last edited by Gooddoc; Yesterday at 07:47 AM.
Gooddoc is offline  
post #27 of 51 Old Yesterday, 08:33 AM
The Truth Hz
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 7,397
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 444 Post(s)
Liked: 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Yea, blind is surprisingly stressful if you have skin in the game!

But it is TRUTH...
I'm just glad I won, sort of... Could Danl....er lightning strike twice?

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

"If you done it, it ain't bragging." ~ Walt Whitman

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

beastaudio is offline  
post #28 of 51 Old Yesterday, 09:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,611
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked: 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
I'm just glad I won, sort of... Could Danl....er lightning strike twice?
Perhaps.....NOT!

j/k, you know how much I liked those Danleys at the last blind. I just got my tracking numbers for the M2's today, so I'll be sure to let you know exactly how much you do, or don't, have to worry about losing the belt after I've put them in and fire them up. (Just in case you were worried I wouldn't post any impressions. )

CHT SHO-10 x 5 powered by Denon 4311 and Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3
Gooddoc is offline  
post #29 of 51 Old Yesterday, 09:40 AM
Senior Member
 
bkeeler10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Woods Cross, UT
Posts: 429
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 86 Post(s)
Liked: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
Glad I'm not the only one. I'm always perplexed by reviewers who attempt to grant superlative praise on home theater speakers by saying "they sounded like the best commercial cinema". Really? They had terrible soundstaging abilities? Poor bass extension? Sure, cinema speakers are incredibly dynamic, they can go to ear-splitting levels, their sound has force behind it. But really good speakers can do that and sound great in other aspects. They can resolve fine levels of detail. They can create a sense of spacious just in the sound.

I didn't check out the Synthesis demo this year, even if I was stopping by the high-end demos, I wouldn't have. I experienced a synthesis demo at CEDIA 3 or 4 years ago, and I don't care to again. It was loud, clean, and forceful, but that was about it. That year everyone was using the Open Range shoot-out as the demo. JBL did... and dARTS did. Whereas JBL sounded like a movie theater, dARTS sounded real.

After that day, Synthesis joined Bose in my "not quite deserving of their praise/pricetag" category. 'Cause if loud is all you're going after, there are much cheaper ways to get Synthesis levels of performance.
I agree with you on this. I have really no reason to go to commercial cinemas any more. The most recent reason was Atmos, and even that one is going away. I've only been to one theater that had decent sound, and it was Atmos and they had some subs in there that did a good job. It was still a little too bright and harsh -- not as bad as most, but still too bright.

I also heard Synthesis a few years ago at CEDIA, and while there were impressive aspects of it, I agree that it sounds too much like a commercial cinema. Bright and harsh and fatiguing. This year, if I had the time I would have gone again, but it was pretty low on the priority list and I didn't make it.

Did you catch dARTS this year btw? Sounded fantastic with a clip from Need For Speed.

bkeeler10 is offline  
post #30 of 51 Old Yesterday, 09:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,611
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked: 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
Glad I'm not the only one. I'm always perplexed by reviewers who attempt to grant superlative praise on home theater speakers by saying "they sounded like the best commercial cinema". Really? They had terrible soundstaging abilities? Poor bass extension? Sure, cinema speakers are incredibly dynamic, they can go to ear-splitting levels, their sound has force behind it. But really good speakers can do that and sound great in other aspects. They can resolve fine levels of detail. They can create a sense of spacious just in the sound.
Not a challenge of any kind, I'm just curious as to what you would hold up as examples for speakers that are incredibly dynamic(by cinema standards), reach ear splitting levels with force behind it, and can also resolve fine levels of detail and a sense of spaciousness in the sound?

CHT SHO-10 x 5 powered by Denon 4311 and Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3
Gooddoc is offline  
Reply Speakers

Tags
cedia 2014 , frontpage , Jbl

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off