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Purchase decision: Reference level listening & high end speakers

3K views 68 replies 19 participants last post by  bluewizard 
#1 ·
I finally figured out what "reference level" actually means. Turns out, I don't really listen to any audio at reference level. Regularly, my AVR is set to -30.0, -20... Never ever to 0.0.

My question is this: If I don't listen to audio at reference level, is there a need for a high end speaker? I'm looking at internet direct buy like Aperion, SVS, PSA, etc. Other such as polk, klipsch, golden ear, paradigm. Even some DIY options from DIYSG. Will I notice a difference in *any* of these at -25 from reference?

I currently have some small satellite speakers and a sub that I repurposed when we moved. I know I'll notice a difference when going from a satellite -> floor standing just because of the physics involved (3+ more drivers per tower). What I'm not sure on is if say a 98db sensitivity vs a 89db is worth the price difference. Or rather, will I notice a significant difference between SVS Ultra and Prime? Or Aperion 5t vs verus.
 
#2 ·
My question is this: If I don't listen to audio at reference level, is there a need for a high end speaker?
High end and high sensitivity aren't the same thing. High end translates to expensive, although that doesn't always mean they sound better.

Will I notice a difference in *any* of these at -25 from reference?
-25 from reference is 60dB. That's not much more than ambient. I don't believe that reference means what you think it means. ;)
 
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#3 · (Edited)
hmm... I think I know what it is...

85db in a calibrated system? Ok, so maybe mine isn't calibrated.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to get across is that I often don't have the volume where it should be to appreciate the fine details. Should I still drop cash on a verus grand or svs ultra at my listening volume?
 
#7 ·
Dont buy speakers based on numbers (sensitivity, watts etc..etc..) Just based on your question you are a long way from home (no disrespect intended). Buy speakers for your listening needs. It is a waste of money to buy high end speakers if you personally cant tell the difference beetween high end and wide market products. You will notice great differences beetween speakers even at low level volume. Before you buy online speakers try to go in a store and listen to different brands. Reference level doesnt meen anything regarding audio quality. When buying high end speakers you are looking to get something more than what you already have or you want to start up on the ladder of audio quality. I started with PSB bookshelves, then went to Klipsch full towers, now i'm on Focal 800v series. Every "upgrade" i made was based on the feeling that i was missing out on audio quality. Never bought a speaker based on how loud it could play.

Good luck!!!
 
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#10 ·
Ok -- let's rewind a bit.

I'm not trying to correlate "reference level" with audio quality. Nor am I suggesting that speaker sensitivity = "higher end". In my case and for the purposes of this thread, i'm suggesting that reference level is an unattainable volume for me for a number of reasons (lack of dedicated theater space, kids sleeping, small house, etc. etc...).

When I demo speakers the volume is such that the room is enveloped in sound. I don't listen to my music this way. 90% of the time, the kids are sleeping. (so, maybe I should be looking at buying headphones instead ;)).

So, given my current limitations, I don't want to spend where I wouldn't necessarily tell the difference.
 
#11 ·
Ok -- let's rewind a bit.
I'm not trying to correlate "reference level" with audio quality.
You're the one who brought it up. :rolleyes:
Where quality is concerned how loud you listen makes no difference. You don't have to drive at 85MPH to appreciate the difference between a Toyota Yaris and a BMW 328. ;)
 
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#14 ·
To re-iterate what's already been said...yes, you will notice a difference even at levels well below "reference".

That being said, if I never got to listen to my system above -20MV (assuming correct calibration), I'd put the money into some really good headphones + bass shakers/transducers. ;)
 
#15 · (Edited)
Regularly, my AVR is set to -30.0, -20... Never ever to 0.0.
Imagine if I said, "I never go over 100mph or accelerate quickly. My current car feels bad when I try to do that. So, I don't need to find a car that can go over 100mph or accelerate quickly, right?"
In other words, you might be basing your performance criteria on how poorly your current product/experiences performed.

Will I notice a difference in *any* of these at -25 from reference?
Yes, as with cars, where there are other competitive differences between the products other than top speed, or acceleration. A stripped-down racecar would satisfy one person's criteria. For another, the money should be put into Bluetooth connectivity, supple leather, three climate zones, and a quiet, hermetically-sealed cabin.

That said, if you try to judge the cars on max speed and acceleration, you won't see many differences if you attempt only 0-60 in twelve seconds, and you attempt to get each to a max speed of 100mph and stop. Using that criteria, you'd find that a Lambo and a Camry are the same for those performance metrics!

Likewise, there are many differences between speakers. And like cars, how they perform when stressed is a differentiator. Distortion increases with volume, either a continuous high volume or quick peaks will generate different types of distortion. Some speakers will allow you to play content at a higher volume than others before distortion increases dramatically. If you don't play very loud, then you won't hear those volume-related distortions.

I currently have some small satellite speakers and a sub that I repurposed when we moved. I know I'll notice a difference when going from a satellite -> floor standing just because of the physics involved (3+ more drivers per tower). What I'm not sure on is if say a 98db sensitivity vs a 89db is worth the price difference. Or rather, will I notice a significant difference between SVS Ultra and Prime? Or Aperion 5t vs verus.
No, you won't necessarily notice a difference just because there are more drivers involved. Just like if I drove 25mph on residential streets to just get groceries, I won't notice much difference between the 6 cyl and 12 cyl car, all other things being equal.

You should ask people here, or the manufacturers, "Other than max output and freedom from distortion at high drive levels, what's the difference between the [Ultra and Prime, Aperion 5t and Versus]?

Goals:
You should think about and discuss your goals. Why are you upgrading your speakers? I know you have to replace repurposed ones, but what about them seemed inadequate? Did you just suspect there were better out there, and you have a higher budget now? Is this for listening to music, movies? For how many people? In what sort of listening space?

If movies: Do the "better" commercial cinemas in your area play the soundtrack much louder than you do at home? Do you hate how loud it is in the commercial theater? If so, then you'll be happy keeping your volume levels lower like you said you do. Calibrate first, and then you might find you keep it at -15 to -25. If you like how the louder commercial theater is: music is engaging, gunshots are startling, bass resonates in your chest cavity etc.,-- then the problem is YOUR system, and you might WANT the volume at -15 to -5.

If music: Do you like live music, concerts, etc.? The front row of seating at an orchestra would be closer to reference level. Live pop/rock/country music outside will be closer to reference level. If for you that's always a terrible experience, and you like to sit as far away as possible, with earplugs, then the lower volume is for you. If you find it exciting and engaging, and you wish you could recreate some of that at home, then you're going to need speakers that can output more than computer desktop speakers.

If you are the only audience, then you only need to worry about getting a sweet spot for your listening position. The speakers only have to image well for you.
If you have family and friends that will be listening with you, then you need to buy speakers that will have even coverage across multiple listening positions. And you should buy two subs to even out the bass response (which is its own topic of "standing waves" and "room modes").

What are the aesthetic requirements? Do you wish the speakers were completely invisible? Are you looking for speakers-as-furniture, with beautiful curves and fine wood finishing? Are they to be hidden behind a projector screen?
 
#20 ·
Imagine if I said, "I never go over 100mph or accelerate quickly. My current car feels bad when I try to do that. So, I don't need to find a car that can go over 100mph or accelerate quickly, right?"
In other words, you might be basing your performance criteria on how poorly your current product/experiences performed.
Eyleron, *thank you* for your thought provoking response.

With my current setup, music / movie listening at -20 volume is quite enjoyable. I don't run my gear anywhere near peak levels. If I could complain about 1 thing, it's the subwoofer. It's a small 8" that really kind of sucks. I do have budget for a new sub, so maybe I start there. KSU, PSA and SVS are all top contenders.

In my case, it's a most likely the best place to start given that it will match with just about anything.
 
#17 ·
One more thing, Reference level is not always MV 0. My reference for movies is MV -18 dBs.
 
#19 ·
No, My speakers are very sensitive and my AVR auto sets speakers to trim level 0. The lowest the trim goes to is -15 dBs so I could set everything to -15 dBs and have MV -3 dBs as reference but not being MV 0 what is the point. I just run the MV at -18 dBs. My pink noise does not even include the portion of LFE that would be hot so it is still louder down low!
 
#21 · (Edited)
Ignore all the discussion of reference level. It's not helpful. Just think - loud vs. not so loud.

My question is this: If I don't listen to audio at reference level, is there a need for a high end speaker? I'm looking at internet direct buy like Aperion, SVS, PSA, etc. Other such as polk, klipsch, golden ear, paradigm.
"High end" is too ambiguous to be useful but ...

I currently have some small satellite speakers and a sub that I repurposed when we moved. I know I'll notice a difference when going from a satellite -> floor standing just because of the physics involved (3+ more drivers per tower). What I'm not sure on is if say a 98db sensitivity vs a 89db is worth the price difference. Or rather, will I notice a significant difference between SVS Ultra and Prime? Or Aperion 5t vs verus.
Whether you'll notice a difference depends mostly on how your room is set up and whether you're paying attention. But you really ought to notice a difference with any of them vs. small satellite speakers.

I'd venture to say most people could notice a difference in a reasonably conducive room, if they are paying attention. If that's not your situation, though, you won't get the benefit of the quality. And more generally, whether it's worth the upgrade price is harder to say.

If I were you - I'd tend not to make too big a leap from the speakers you have now. Look for a good deal on some of the nice speakers you mentioned or something similar, rather then the more expensive ones you mention.
 
#24 ·
If we look at the Dolby Atmos white paper, to achieve Reference it actually demands for each front channel 105dB with 3dB of amplifier headroom, so it is actually 105dB RMS and the -20dBFS signal that should be utilized has to be actually -23dBFS RMS. The one Blue Sky provides is precisely that and for free. I compared the Blue Sky noise with the Dolby one and the latter is louder and is more spurious, while the former is more uniform and correctly loud.
And there is no real average 85dB, because there could hypothetically be a movie soundtrack entirely made of whispers. If you set those whispers at 85dB, you're going above Reference for sure.
 
#27 ·
If we look at the Dolby Atmos white paper, to achieve Reference it actually demands for each front channel 105dB with 3dB of amplifier headroom, so it is actually 105dB RMS and the -20dBFS signal that should be utilized has to be actually -23dBFS RMS.
If you're talking about Dolby Atmos commercial specs, I don't know how much we should be applying that to home theater?

Looking at this doc: http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-specifications.pdf
Each screen loudspeaker system and associated amplifiers must have a maximum output capability of 105 dB continuous sound pressure level (SPL) at the reference listening position.
...
We recommend an amplifier with 3 dB of headroom (that is, twice the required continuous power) to drive each element.
If that's the sort of statement you're seeing about headroom, I wouldn't think that they expect you to send 3dB more drive to the speakers. Just that if you, say, needed 500w to achieve 105dB at the desired distance, they recommend a 1000w amp. And that's a good ideal in general.

I was surprised that they wanted amps that can handle that output at continuous levels, since they're talking about peaks? That alone should yield some headroom, since an amp that can output that power continuous should be capable of short-duration peaks 6dB greater? And for that matter, why don't they require the speakers to be able to handle 105dB continuous too then?

Anyway, not sure how much 3dB here or there matters, when the topic is, "Does the OP need reference level capable speakers, or -25dB capable speakers?" If as he says it's just above the level of conversation, then most speakers will meet that criterium. :)
 
#31 ·
Well, you said the volume in theaters is too loud. So, unless you find that you like a higher volume in the nice speakers you are demoing, you can put that issue to bed.
(we had to make sure, because around here most members and spouses start not liking their speakers loud, then they replace them, then they play louder.)

See if you can audition some speakers at home for a couple days. This allows you to compare the speakers, not the room.

What speakers are you replacing, again?
 
#32 ·
What speakers are you replacing, again?
I'm replacing Orb audio -- small satellites and a 8" sub that I used in a much much smaller area (where space was a consideration):
http://www.orbaudio.com/mod2xblackfriday.aspx

I think you get where I'm coming from -- I don't want to spend $1k / speaker when I can get away with something $500 given my usage needs.
 
#34 ·
The Orb Audio satellites image very well, because they only have one driver, instead of one or more for lows and another for highs.
They are also sexy, futuristic spheres.

The downsides is that they're trying to fight physics, and thus there are some holes in frequency response, and the sub doesn't extend as deep as it should for home theater.

If you want that same imaging, you could look for speakers that use concentric drivers, where the tweeter is behind the center of the woofer. KEF, Tannoy, and DIYSoundGroup Volt 6, Volt 8, or Volt 10 might be places to look for that.

Other than that, just getting speakers that have an even on-axis and off-axis frequency response, and a sub that extends to 25Hz or lower should make you happy.
 
#35 · (Edited)
Let me go back to the beginning at take this from a different angle.

We have many different applications of the word "Reference".

Relative to Reference Levels, the reference in question is simply an accepted standard. Where do you stand relative to the predetermined number we are using as a standard reference.

In this case, Reference Levels simply means that any AV system is calibrated to a defined standard or reference level, which is, indeed, 85db with 20db of headroom. Though the reference for the Subwoofer is 10db higher at 95db with 20db headroom.

However, you can have Reference Amps or Reference Speakers again in the context of a quality of function standard. Many audio reviewers have what they call their Reference Equipment. Though it may not be the best, it is the standard that they are familiar with and that they use to compare other equipment to, as is, how do these speakers (or amp or other) compare to my standard speakers (or amp or other)?

Then we have, and I think this is important to the discussion, Reference Quality. These are amps, speakers, Turntables, and CD Player, etc... that are the standard by which all other equipment is compared. This is truly the best of the best. When you have Reference Standard or Reference Quality equipment, regardless of what that piece of equipment might be, you have very very very high quality equipment indeed.

So, moving back to Reference Levels, that is NOT a measure of quality. You can buy the crappiest Walmart 5.1 system, and it can reach Reference Levels, which is not really crazy loud. But, reaching Reference Levels does not mean a crappy Walmart 5.1 system will sound good, only that it will sound loud.

Equally, a $20,000, $30,000, $40,000 Home Cinema can achieve both Reference Levels and Reference Sound Quality.

Though opinions vary, I would say you have to reach about $5,000 or MORE to get near Reference Sound Quality in speakers. I can think of several speakers near $5000/pr that are Reference Quality enough for me, and many in the $5000 to $10,000/pr range that are as Reference Quality as I could ever possible hope to need. Bearing in mind, that you can easily spend $50,000 to $150,000 on just a pair of speakers.

So, independent of Reference Levels, you can certainly hear the difference between common garden variety good speakers, and true Reference Quality speakers. And you can most certainly see the difference in the price.

The two things are really not that connected - Reference Level vs Reference Quality.

Good speakers sound good at any volume level.

Reference Quality speakers sound superb at any volume level.

Really more than hitting specifically Reference Levels from your system, far more important is finding a level that best suits your listening experience. My system, which is a Stereo can get quite loud for movies, especially action movies. My system is also capable of reaching sustained average levels of 100db, with plenty of volume control to go.

But, I would say non-action movies is in the 75db range, and action tend to run in the 85db to 95db range which is loud.

You can't just consider the volume, you have to consider the space. In a very large room with good acoustics, higher volume levels are possible, but to take that to the absurd counter extreme, 85db in an empty closet is likely painfully loud.

So, if you have run Setup (Audyssey, YPAO, other) that calibrates the volume control so that at 0db, you are averaging about 85db. That is your Reference Level. Once that is done, simply listen to movies at whatever level is comfortable for that particular movie.

As to low volume listening, there are speakers that have more presence at lower volumes than others. But, choosing a speaker based on that parameter is difficult, you have to listen to a lot of speakers a lot of times, to gain that sense from a speaker. Generally, a speaker that is brighter, more forward, with a greater sense of midrange presence, with greater sound stage is likely to be better at lower volumes. Best guess - Dali, Focal, Monitor Audio, Dynaudio, etc...

Generally, a comfortable, though not quiet levels, I don't have a problem with most speakers I have encountered.

For music, my typical listening level is about 75db average at 11 feet. That's comfortable, but not exactly quiet.

So, the core of what I intend to say was to make a distinction regarding how the word "Reference" was used.

Reference Level simply means calibrated to a fixed predetermined level for movie watching.

Reference Quality, in any equipment, refers to the highest standard of quality.

You can have Reference Levels with virtually NO quality and you have have Reference Quality at the lowest of functional volume levels. Never the twain shall meet.

Hope the helps.

Steve/bluewizard
 
#36 ·
Thought we were passed this?

In case the OP gets the wrong impression, no Wal-Mart crappy speakers will reach reference level decibels, regardless of quality.

It's also NOT easy to achieve. Maybe Bluewizard only calculates for the average levels of 85db, but the point is that the amp and speaker must yield 105db at the listening position, for those brief transient peaks. If a little driver hits mechanical limits of excursion, it won't make enough decibels. It will just make bad sounds....then die. 20db peak requires 1000x watts.

Second, there are many, most well-regarded speakers that cannot do ref level cleanly. Otherwise, why would we talk about it?!

Saying "reference level spl output is easy" is like saying, "Mach 1.1" is easy. And some planes that purport to propel past the sound barrier, really do so in pieces as they break apart. If a plane shakes and cracks form and the plane becomes unstable, you can't say "this is easy!".

The "reference level speakers in terms of a model line do not mean they are "very very very good." The hypberole leaves no where to go up. Rather, they are typically simply "not the cheapest we sell." For example, Paradigm have speakers in the $250 bracket they call Reference, and they offer more expensive speakers. Consider it like "luxury".
 
#37 ·
Blue, to use the car analogy again, there are consumer cheaper sports cars that will make a lot of compromises. To meet some level of performance at a price point. There are luxury cars that have poor absolute performance WHEN pushed. Like a Mercedes that can't reach 170 mph and has a 0-60 of 6s. There are also luxury performance vehicles that can reach high top speed and accelerate 0-60 in sub 5s. Pro race cars eke out even more narrow types of performance.

Consumer has to know that a car is not a car, and narrow down what they need and want. This user said that low-to-middlin' levels is all he needs. Now he needs to work on every other aspect, metric, preference.
 
#38 · (Edited)
I think you are overestimating what it takes to reach Reference Levels. 85db is loud, but it is not crazy loud. I've got some fair $1000/pr Floorstanding speakers and they have no problem sustaining 100db average level. In fact, that is only 1 o'clock on the volume dial, a bit over half. Though that is crazy loud. I couldn't listen at the level for very long. (98db = Turntable, 100db = CD Player @ 1 o'clock on the dial)

Further, I have no trouble running at 85db to 95db average on my Stereo system, which was, at the time I measured it, a Yamaha RX-797 100w/ch Stereo and Wharfedale Diamond 9.7 speakers. Yes, those are big speakers, but there are equal speakers with higher outputs, Klipsch for example. They are good, especially for what I paid for them, but they are nothing special.

The Reference Level Standard is 85dB with 20db headroom, you hear the average much more than you hear the peaks. And I was clear that if it reached Reference Level, the Walmart system would sound like crap. You are too fixated on the peaks.

Next, you completely missed the point of my post, which was that Reference Level is not a quality judgement, it is simply a calibration standard. You can have that level at good quality, or you can have the level at poor quality. Quality has nothing to do with "Reference" in this context.

To say you have a Reference Speaker or a Reference Amp is a quality judgement, and is unrelated to Reference Levels.

I was making a point about the contrasting application of the work "reference", and that seems to be the point you didn't get. And I did so, because it was inferred from reading the original post, that the Original Poster was taking the term "reference levels" as some type of quality judgement. It is not, and that was my point.

Steve/bluewizard
 
#39 ·
I did not acknowledge you point. Yes the term has different meanings.

I cannot find info on a 9.7, but I see a Diamond 9.6 with 90db sensitivity, 6ohms, two 8" woofers, soft dome tweeter.

Unless you sit real close, the numbers do not add up.
I question whether you do get 20db peaks. Measured how? What content?

If Wharfdale could make a speaker like yours that could produce 125db peaks from whatever distance you're at, it would change the pro audio world. Forever.

Mic calibrated?
Measurement with only sine waves?
Peak hold on meter?
Level on volume knob?
Music compressed at 6db? (Google "loudness wars")

I am focused on the peaks, because that is where the dynamics are!

Most do not realize how much their output is compressed. So instead of, say, 16db peak there's a 14db peak due to thermal compression, heating up voice coil, raising resistance, raising volume, more heat, etc.

Next, as you go beyond some percentage of XMax in cone movement, There is more distortion. The magnetic field is not linear anymore. You may not hear it as typical distortion, but it ain't what the engineer encoded in the signal. Google "klippel testing" , or here's the poster: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=8P6YVKHuCMiZyAT8o4GgAw&url=http://www.klippel.de/uploads/media/Klippel_Nonlinearity_Poster.pdf&ved=0CBwQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNHlpictdHh9y5cFYhKEhotT1CXoJA&sig2=VtpQ38MIzpi_XAzhBTqS

I agree with you that 85db is easy. Beating a dead horse harder, it's like a race entry requirement that each car should be able to maintain 100mph continuous. Easey Peasey, right? There's your average.

Next requirement: accelerate from 100-to-160 in under 6s. Well shoot, there goes my Camry's chances! There's your peaks, when we're talking a high drive level.

IF what you said was true, that you had 100s averages, and tried to listen to a 20db peak, you would need around 10,000 of power. Logarithms n' stuff.
 
#40 ·
You are right, my speakers are Wharfedale Diamond 9.6 with twin 8" bass drivers in a 3.5-way configuration.

The reason I was doing all this testing is that my CD player was substantially louder than my turntable, and the CD sounded like crap. First I blamed in on compress, then decided to do some testing.

I have identical new copies of a new album in both CD and Vinyl format. I played each source at a range of volume levels using a FAST C-weighted SPL meter. I did this to find the difference in output so I could buy attenuator to bring the CD level down to match the Turntable. It took 12db Attenuators to do the job.

You can read the full thread where I explain what I did here -

For What It's Worth - LP vs CD SPL -

https://www.avforums.com/threads/for-what-its-worth-lp-vs-cd-spl.1561542/

And here is the summary as relevant to this thread -

Next using my turntable and the Hendrix LP, I tested the volume from 9 o'clock up to 1 o'clock

Hendrix - Stone Free

9 o'clock = 75dB
10 o'clock = 85db
11 o'clock = 90db
12 o'clock = 94db
1 o'clock = 98db

Now I replaced that with the DVD/CD playing the same song and got this -

75db = 8 to 9 o'clock (about half way between 8 and 9)
85db = 9 o'clock
90db = 9 to 10 o'clock
95db = 10 o'clock
100db = 11 o'clock


After inserting the 12dB attenuators, the volume position was virtually identical for CD or Turntable.

No problem reaching near a sustained 100db are only 1 o'clock on the volume dial. I generally don't see any point in going over abut 2 o'clock on the dial, too much distortion and clipping, for very little gain is sound, plus the volume level is crazy loud.

In other tests, I have monitored the levels in my seating position 11 feet from the TV. I have no trouble reaching 85db to 95db average levels, and I get peaks well over 100db. At no time do I hear any distortion or strain from the speakers.

Though my current amp is of less value because it has a uncalibrated read out of volume level, my previous amp, the one used to make all these measurement, is typically at about 12 o'clock for most movies.

Though the dynamics of movies is different than music, you can see from above, at 12 o'clock on the dial, I'm averaging about 95db, which implies peaks WELL OVER 100db.

I think I'm doing OK.

Steve/bluewizard
 
#41 ·
Also, another point, while you claim to reach peak levels I would need 1000 times more power or 10,000 times more power, you are forgetting that with most speakers it only takes ONE WATT to equal or exceed reference levels.

For my speakers, to reach 105db only takes 32watts. I've got 125w on tap. A more common slightly less efficient speaker (87db) is only going to take 64w. A speaker (84db) of very modest efficiency is going to need a considerable 128w. I think I'm good.

Also keep in mind, while I do have a second set of speakers, I don't have a Subwoofer.

Steve/bluewizard
 
#44 ·
Also, another point, while you claim to reach peak levels I would need 1000 times more power or 10,000 times more power, you are forgetting that with most speakers it only takes ONE WATT to equal or exceed reference levels.

For my speakers, to reach 105db only takes 32watts. I've got 125w on tap. A more common slightly less efficient speaker (87db) is only going to take 64w. A speaker (84db) of very modest efficiency is going to need a considerable 128w. I think I'm good.

Also keep in mind, while I do have a second set of speakers, I don't have a Subwoofer.

Steve/bluewizard
For those ^^ numbers to apply, you have to be sitting one meter away from the 90 db/W/m radiator. At a more typical three meters distance, 90 db/W/m becomes 80 db/W/3m. You would need a bit of room gain to get to 105 dB at that distance at full stated power.

As for the OP, what with his distaste for commercial cinema sound levels and his concerns for sleeping kids, I think some good headphones are the best direction for him. (For a few years, anyway.)
Blue can you show me your math?
32w, 12 ft, 90db sensitivity, away from walls
= 93.8db peaks.

125w
= 99.7db peaks.
12 ft, 9 ft, you are still short in terms of spl, distortion notwithstanding.
Hi fellas. Just be aware that some on-line calculators use the Inverse Square Law of 6dB of SPL attenuation for each doubling of distance from the source. (Like this one.) OK for outdoors and anechoic chambers. But within the confines of typically furnished domestic sized rooms (is that you Steve?), the net attenuation with distance equates to something like 3 - 4dBSPL per doubling of distance (usually closer to 3dBSPL). For 10ft and 12ft distances, this equates to about 5dB and 6dB of attenuation respectively.

Using 12ft/-6dB for the sake of an example, this calls for 111dBSPL peaks at 1m for theoretical 105dBSPL per channel peaks at the LP. Thus, 21dBW or a ~130W burst is required from the amp into a 90dB/1W/1m speaker.

The kicker with amp selection though is that amplifiers specified continuous ("RMS") power ratings are measured with sine waves with a 3dB crest factor (average to peak). So, we can legitimately reduce the peak amp power by 3dB (or half) to determine the minimum equivalent RMS rating. Clearly in this example, 65WRMS per channel is indicated. (Alternately, you could consider that the 3dB of headroom is already "built in" to the calculation.) By contrast, if the figures in this example (105dBSL, 12ft, 90dB/1W/1m) are plugged into the above calculator and the default 3dB of headroom is retained (headroom's a good thing, right?), the calculator returns over 800W as Required Amplifier Power.

These couple of aspects can get overlooked when using online power calculators and, along with a few other factors, can contribute to enthusiasts buying amps that are "excess to requirements". ;)
 
#42 ·
For those ^^ numbers to apply, you have to be sitting one meter away from the 90 db/W/m radiator. At a more typical three meters distance, 90 db/W/m becomes 80 db/W/3m. You would need a bit of room gain to get to 105 dB at that distance at full stated power.

As for the OP, what with his distaste for commercial cinema sound levels and his concerns for sleeping kids, I think some good headphones are the best direction for him. (For a few years, anyway.)
 
#46 ·
For sure. I only take issue with notions like, "any ol' speaker can hit reference level spl."

I think most people don't realize the harm their room can do, the distortion in speakers that rises as a percentage of XMax. Headroom for me, no matter what the speaker, is "let it loaf"!
 
#47 ·
I should note that based on information GIEGAR provided, I only need 6db more at 4 meters, which is actually 2 feet beyond my listening position. So, 32w at 1 meter, 64w at 2 meters, 128w at 4 meters, again, I think I am safe, since I have an amp with 125w RMS power. Keep in mind the Dynamic Power or Peak Power are substantially higher, so with my equipment, I'm good.

But I will also note that I have a second amp and a second set of speakers, when I turn those on, I get a 5db gain in output. So, again, I'm good.

I think some are too obsessed with Peak output. Any speakers with a rated Sensitive of 85db or above, can reach average Reference levels with a very basic amp. That covers a vast majority of speakers out there.

Further, in systems with a Sub, the Reference Level is 10db higher, meaning 95db instead of 85db, in the bass region. In terms of impact, if you have a Sub, you should have no trouble reaching average Reference Levels.

With an AV Receiver, you isolate the bass from the Front speakers, making their low frequency excursion lower, which in turn means the can go louder without bottoming out.

Admittedly, I made a generalization, which most certainly will have exceptions, but I stand by my generalization in context.

And I repeat the central point I was making. In context, the "reference" in Reference Levels is not a quality judgement, which is the point I was making. However, the use of "reference" in other context could be a quality judgement, just not in this case.

There is nothing magical about Reference Levels beyond calibrating your AVR. Once that is done, if you are able to play at volume levels what work for you, regardless of what the volume read-out says, then you have what you need.

If a person runs into a conflict between the level of dialog and that of peak content, then using some type of Dynamic Volume Compression can allow higher dialog while restraining peak levels.

Steve/bluewizard
 
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