Upgrading (5.1) Speakers from Yamaha HTIB, Many Questions... - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews > Audio > Speakers > Upgrading (5.1) Speakers from Yamaha HTIB, Many Questions...

Speakers

PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar PlasmaPZ80U
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I currently own the YHT-399UBL Yamaha 5.1 channel HTIB. I want to upgrade the speakers, preferably a few at a time. The goal is to get the best sounding speakers for my budget ($400-$500 max for all 6 speakers) that are compatible with my AVR (that comes with my HTIB) but also futureproof the speakers when the time comes to upgrade the AVR (due to 4K or new surround sound formats being available, etc.).

To start, does it make sense to upgrade the front left and right speakers first? Or should I focus on the center channel or subwoofer? I don't have room for floorstanding speakers or huge bookshelf speakers like this one:

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio...gh&mode=paging

How do I decide what brand of speakers to buy, how much to spend on each, given a max $400-$500 budget for everything combined, and based on my space limitations and current AVR capabilities? And what would give me the most bang for the buck? I use these speakers for watching BD/DVD/Netflix movies and TV shows and for console gaming (PS4/XB1/PS3/X360). I don't listen to music directly, but movies, tv shows, and games still have music within them and I want that to sound as good as possible too.

Basically, I don't know much about buying speakers individually and so far I've only ever owned entry level HTIBs (three Sonys and this Yamaha... the Yamaha is the best yet). I really just want to get clearest, punchiest, most powerful sounding speakers within my budget that fit in my HT setup. I don't want to spend the full amount now, just get started with the most important speakers first like the fronts or subwoofer. Also, if I can find these speakers on the Best Buy website (Under Best Buy items, not Marketplace seller) it would be helpful as I have a $50 gift card I could use towards the purchase.
afrogt's Avatar afrogt
10:08 AM Liked: 444
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$500 really isn't a lot of money to replace a 5.1 speaker setup. But you have to work within your budget.

You'll want to replace your front speakers all at one time because you want the same sound quality across the front stage.

If Best Buy is your preferred vendor then look at the Sony Core speakers that have come highly recommended from one of our AVS members.

Get two pair of 5" 3-way bookshelf speakers. They're 13" tall x 7" wide and 8" deep. Not nearly as big as the Yamaha bookshelf you linked.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-cor...&skuId=5721014

One center channel speaker
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-cor...&skuId=5720006

Sony also sells a 10" sub for cheap but I don't know anything about it.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-cor...&skuId=5721005

You might be better off getting a Dayton or Bic subwoofer instead depending how much you're willing to spend.
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...oofer--300-629

http://www.parts-express.com/bic-for...watts--303-436

this will blow away your current Yamaha speaker system.
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar PlasmaPZ80U
10:34 AM Liked: 230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post
$500 really isn't a lot of money to replace a 5.1 speaker setup. But you have to work within your budget.

You'll want to replace your front speakers all at one time because you want the same sound quality across the front stage.

If Best Buy is your preferred vendor then look at the Sony Core speakers that have come highly recommended from one of our AVS members.

Get two pair of 5" 3-way bookshelf speakers. They're 13" tall x 7" wide and 8" deep. Not nearly as big as the Yamaha bookshelf you linked.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-cor...&skuId=5721014

One center channel speaker
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-cor...&skuId=5720006

Sony also sells a 10" sub for cheap but I don't know anything about it.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-cor...&skuId=5721005

You might be better off getting a Dayton or Bic subwoofer instead depending how much you're willing to spend.
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...oofer--300-629

http://www.parts-express.com/bic-for...watts--303-436

this will blow away your current Yamaha speaker system.
thanks, regarding the Sony Core speakers will they work fine with my other current 8 ohms impedance speakers (with AVR/AMP in 8 ohms impedance mode)? They are listed as 6 ohms impedance, which is why I ask. My AVR/AMP does have a 6 ohms impedance mode, but I would need all speakers to be 6 ohms impedance compatible for it to work properly.

also, if I get the front left and right now and hold off on the center channel speaker, will my audio suffer significantly? also, is the center channel only for dialogue or does it carry other sounds as well?
GLBright's Avatar GLBright
11:26 AM Liked: 72
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Pioneer SP-BS or Infinity Primus Speakers. Those are the best you can get right now within your budget. Both have excellent reviews. Don't worry about impedance. It doesn't matter. I'd get a pair for L/R duty and the best center either company makes. Then use the surrounds you have now. Or use your current front speakers (if they're bigger than your surrounds) as surrounds. A new sub would be nice, but you'll go over budget for sure. That front setup will probably set you back $400. You'll notice the difference. Good luck.
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar PlasmaPZ80U
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I just ended up going with the Sony Core 5" 3-way bookshelf speakers and center channel speaker for $260 combined.
afrogt's Avatar afrogt
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so you only bought one pair of the Core bookshelf speakers? What are you using for surrounds?

How does it sound to you compared to your old Yamaha speakers?
zieglj01's Avatar zieglj01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I just ended up going with the Sony Core 5" 3-way bookshelf speakers and center channel speaker for $260 combined.
Smart decision - they are my clear preference and choice over Infinity, Pioneer,
Polk and Klipsch. They are nice/good speakers - and they do tend to do well,
against more expensive speakers.

Enjoy the adventure.
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar PlasmaPZ80U
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post
so you only bought one pair of the Core bookshelf speakers? What are you using for surrounds?

How does it sound to you compared to your old Yamaha speakers?
I placed an order for store pickup... haven't got it yet.

For now, I'll use my existing surrounds and subwoofer from the Yamaha HTIB.
afrogt's Avatar afrogt
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Don't forget to plug in the calibration mic and run YPAO again once you get your new speakers connected. You've changed your system and need to run the setup once more to get to crossover settings correct.
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar PlasmaPZ80U
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post
Smart decision - they are my clear preference and choice over Infinity, Pioneer,
Polk and Klipsch. They are nice/good speakers - and they do tend to do well,
against more expensive speakers.

Enjoy the adventure.
good to know, this is the first time I've really made an effort to get high quality speakers... I looked at the speaker package (5.1) that came with my Yamaha HTIB and its $150 new for all six speakers... so this should be quite an upgrade (and later in 2015 I will change out the surrounds and subwoofer too... probably sub first)
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar PlasmaPZ80U
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post
Don't forget to plug in the calibration mic and run YPAO again once you get your new speakers connected. You've changed your system and need to run the setup once more to get to crossover settings correct.
yes, i will

fyi, the crossover is at 80Hz currently (the YPAO seems to like that value with my current 5.1 speakers)
Elihawk's Avatar Elihawk
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For round two, don't skimp on the sub! Believe me as someone who burned through a couple cheaper subs (ML Dynamo 300, Klipsch synergy, Klipsch Rw12d) and eventually, wasn't happy with any of them. Budget 500 dollars for a new sub and then look at SVS, HSU, Outlaw, PSA and Rythmiks and see what is the best sub you can get for 500 dollars at the time!
darthray's Avatar darthray
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
For round two, don't skimp on the sub! Believe me as someone who burned through a couple cheaper subs (ML Dynamo 300, Klipsch synergy, Klipsch Rw12d) and eventually, wasn't happy with any of them. Budget 500 dollars for a new sub and then look at SVS, HSU, Outlaw, PSA and Rythmiks and see what is the best sub you can get for 500 dollars at the time!

Good words of wisdom, a good sub can make a word of difference
Also excellent variety of many fine sub maker.


Ray
zenimcphea
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It doesn't matter. I'd get a pair for L/R duty and the best center either company makes.
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar PlasmaPZ80U
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UPDATE: I got the Sony Core Speakers and am throughly impressed with how much better the sound is (fuller, clearer, more distinct sounding). Dialogue is much clearer and more realistic sounding (no need to use any dynamic range compression features on AVR or BD player). High frequency sounds are easier to hear and sound more complete than before (seemed like something was missing before). The same applies to the midrange frequencies as well. Low end is a bit lacking since I'm still using the old subwoofer that came with the Yamaha HTIB. The YPAO boosted the levels of the older speakers (subwoofer and surrounds) to match the levels of the new 3 front speakers. This actually makes surround effects sound louder/more pronounced without adding any additional distortion. Sometimes when the audio goes from front to back and/or from back to front you can tell the surrounds are quite a bit smaller than the front 3, but not enough to be jarring or annoying.

The size of these 3 speakers is much bigger than the 3 speakers it replaces, and so it looks rather huge in my small/medium sized room. However, any reservations about that go out the door when I focus on the sound and not the size of the speakers relative to the size of the room. So far I've watched two BD movies (Expendables 3 and Need for Speed) and tried two XB1 racing games (FH2 and FM5). I'm going to check Netflix DD+ 5.1 audio (streaming app) and also some other games (PS3 and PS4).

All in all, I feel this purchase was a smart one and don't have any regrets spending the $280 on these 3 speakers.
bgtighe23's Avatar bgtighe23
02:53 PM Liked: 45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
For round two, don't skimp on the sub! Believe me as someone who burned through a couple cheaper subs (ML Dynamo 300, Klipsch synergy, Klipsch Rw12d) and eventually, wasn't happy with any of them. Budget 500 dollars for a new sub and then look at SVS, HSU, Outlaw, PSA and Rythmiks and see what is the best sub you can get for 500 dollars at the time!
I strongly disagree. Well, I agree that these are great subs for the price. But if you have a $500 budget for subwoofers, then I suggest getting two to equal $500. Not one.

If you want to stick to $500 then I suggest getting two BIC america f12s.
http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-F1...ywords=bic+f12 or you can order these from parts express (partsexpress.com)

If you want to save money, then I suggest two Dayton Audio - SUB 1200s or 1500s (partsexpress.com)

Or simply 1 (either one) and add a second one when you have the extra money.
Though it depends on your room size.

With 1 sub, you will quickly find "nulls" in your room. Which can be frustrating when you just spent $500 on a great sub, but can't enjoy a flat frequency response because of waves canceling each other out. The sound quality between that Dayton Audio - SUB 1200 and..lets say the new Outlaw Audio - Ultra x12 will be very similar. You are paying for intensity and power to fill a larger space.

Larger subwoofers are for powering larger rooms. SVS will tell you by asking for you room size which sub will fit your room. Smaller rooms they will recommend the PB-1000 and for larger rooms the PB-2000 (and so on (*These were strictly for example use)).

It all depends on room size. If you have an SVS Ultra in a 12x12 bedroom you will hear bloated bass. These large subs need room to "breathe" and expand on that smooth richness they really can reproduce. The receiver would have to turn down the sub level to its lowest dB (I think it's pretty common for that number to be about -12dB, but not sure :P) even if your gain on your subwoofer is at, lets say 40% (4 out of 10).

Though a singe SVS PB-1000 would sound nice in a 12x12 room. But if half the music you listen to is lost on certain baselines due to nulls, it's really not enjoyable. I think many people do not realize that your room plays such an impact on your subwoofer. Just because the subwoofer is "omnidirectional" doesn't mean your getting your entire room with the equal flat response it truly deserves.
zieglj01's Avatar zieglj01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
UPDATE: I got the Sony Core Speakers and am throughly impressed with how much better the sound is (fuller, clearer, more distinct sounding). Dialogue is much clearer and more realistic sounding (no need to use any dynamic range compression features on AVR or BD player). High frequency sounds are easier to hear and sound more complete than before (seemed like something was missing before). The same applies to the midrange frequencies as well.

All in all, I feel this purchase was a smart one and don't have any regrets spending the $280 on these 3 speakers.
Bingo!

Continue to enjoy the adventure.
bgtighe23's Avatar bgtighe23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post
Bingo!

Continue to enjoy the adventure.
How do you compare the sony core series with EmpTeks R5Bi?
zieglj01's Avatar zieglj01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgtighe23 View Post
How do you compare the sony core series with EmpTeks R5Bi?
I only have experience with RBH in the past - I have not listened to
their current products.
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar PlasmaPZ80U
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Looking at the specs for my AVR/AMP, what does this mean?

from: http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio...tr-3066_black/


100 W per channel (8 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.9% THD, 1-ch driven)
70 W per channel (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.09% THD, 2-ch driven)

what is the difference between 1-ch driven and 2-ch driven? does it refer to the number of drivers or "ways" of each speaker?
Elihawk's Avatar Elihawk
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Since you have, and like the Sony Core speakers...I wouldn't worry too much about how they sound versus other speakers. Enjoy and don't worry about comparisons UNTIL you are ready to upgrade.
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar PlasmaPZ80U
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I took some snapshots of my AVR's settings after running the YPAO again. On a side note, if I change settings like dynamic range compression, sound fields, surround decoding, etc. after running YPAO, do I need to run YPAO once more or does everything remain optimal regardless of such settings being changed (such settings exclude the ones I posted pics of below).
Attached: 20141228_230059_4_bestshot.jpg (194.3 KB)  20141228_230215_4_bestshot.jpg (206.9 KB)  20141228_230334_2_bestshot.jpg (220.6 KB) 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar PlasmaPZ80U
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
Since you have, and like the Sony Core speakers...I wouldn't worry too much about how they sound versus other speakers. Enjoy and don't worry about comparisons UNTIL you are ready to upgrade.
Which/whose post are you referring to exactly in this post? Is this about my AVR/AMP question above your post or about how the surrounds sound smaller than the fronts (because they are much smaller)?
afrogt's Avatar afrogt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Looking at the specs for my AVR/AMP, what does this mean?

from: http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio...tr-3066_black/


100 W per channel (8 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.9% THD, 1-ch driven)
70 W per channel (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.09% THD, 2-ch driven)

what is the difference between 1-ch driven and 2-ch driven? does it refer to the number of drivers or "ways" of each speaker?
1 channel driven is a useless rating as you're always going to be playing 2 channels at a minimum.

Left and right speakers = 2 channels. Left, right and center = 3 channels.
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar PlasmaPZ80U
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post
1 channel driven is a useless rating as you're always going to be playing 2 channels at a minimum.

Left and right speakers = 2 channels. Left, right and center = 3 channels.
in that case, it should really be 6 channels driven
afrogt's Avatar afrogt
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Nope, not 6 channels because the subwoofer has its own amp, not powered by the receiver.

Some mfrs give a 5 channel rating but those power numbers drop significantly with low end receivers. So they stick with two channel ratings.

Remember this is marketing and they're trying to sell a product. And you don't want your AVR to look bad or underpowered. They do creative things like rating 1 channel at one frequency (1khz) to make the receiver seem powerful.

who listens to one frequency? That would be like playing one of those emergency broadcast tones continuously. Totally useless.
darthray's Avatar darthray
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post
1 channel driven is a useless rating as you're always going to be playing 2 channels at a minimum.

Left and right speakers = 2 channels. Left, right and center = 3 channels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
in that case, it should really be 6 channels driven

And this why I believe there should be more of standard for audio output, including AVR.
I am into power amps for this reason, 2, 5, 7 or what ever the #of channels it is for all channels driven all at once.


Ray
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar PlasmaPZ80U
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post
Nope, not 6 channels because the subwoofer has its own amp, not powered by the receiver.

Some mfrs give a 5 channel rating but those power numbers drop significantly with low end receivers. So they stick with two channel ratings.

Remember this is marketing and they're trying to sell a product. And you don't want your AVR to look bad or underpowered. They do creative things like rating 1 channel at one frequency (1khz) to make the receiver seem powerful.

who listens to one frequency? That would be like playing one of those emergency broadcast tones continuously. Totally useless.
yeah, my bad: 5 is correct (though some home theater systems have a passive sub... but not mine)

here are the specs for a slightly newer version of my AVR (it has the same specs for power output as mine):

"Rated Output Power (1kHz, 1ch driven) 100 W (8 ohms, 0.9% THD)
Rated Output Power (1kHz, 2ch driven) 85 W (8 ohms, 0.9% THD)
Rated Output Power (20Hz-20kHz, 2ch driven) 70 W (8 ohms, 0.09% THD)
Dynamic Power per Channel (8/6/4/2 ohms) 110 / 130 / 160 / 180 W"

here they show that the real power rating for 2-channels is 70W, not 85W since the latter is only at 1kHz whereas the former is from 20Hz to 20kHz

also, the dynamic power per channel is confusing because these receivers only have 8 ohms and 6 ohms modes, not 4 ohms or 2 ohms (though the owner's manual claims 4 ohms speakers can be used as the fronts when in 6 ohms mode)

on a separate note if my AVR was indeed under-powered for the speakers attached (Sony Core 3 fronts), how would that become apparent when listening to the speakers? too quiet, less dynamic range, not as clear?

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
And this why I believe there should be more of standard for audio output, including AVR.
I am into power amps for this reason, 2, 5, 7 or what ever the #of channels it is for all channels driven all at once.


Ray
what's a power amp and how does that relate to the amp that is part of my receiver?
bgtighe23's Avatar bgtighe23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
yeah, my bad: 5 is correct (though some home theater systems have a passive sub... but not mine)

here are the specs for a slightly newer version of my AVR (it has the same specs for power output as mine):

"Rated Output Power (1kHz, 1ch driven) 100 W (8 ohms, 0.9% THD)
Rated Output Power (1kHz, 2ch driven) 85 W (8 ohms, 0.9% THD)
Rated Output Power (20Hz-20kHz, 2ch driven) 70 W (8 ohms, 0.09% THD)
Dynamic Power per Channel (8/6/4/2 ohms) 110 / 130 / 160 / 180 W"

here they show that the real power rating for 2-channels is 70W, not 85W since the latter is only at 1kHz whereas the former is from 20Hz to 20kHz

also, the dynamic power per channel is confusing because these receivers only have 8 ohms and 6 ohms modes, not 4 ohms or 2 ohms (though the owner's manual claims 4 ohms speakers can be used as the fronts when in 6 ohms mode)

on a separate note if my AVR was indeed under-powered for the speakers attached (Sony Core 3 fronts), how would that become apparent when listening to the speakers? too quiet, less dynamic range, not as clear?



what's a power amp and how does that relate to the amp that is part of my receiver?
Your receiver is a processor (decoding audio, etc.) and amplifier (supplying the speakers with power, "watts per channel into "x" ohm - that kind of thing) combined into one with added features (AirPlay, Bluetooth, etc.).

A POWER amplifier is solely the amplifier. They usually deliver more power per channel because their only duty is to supply power to the speakers (essentially). Just like a receiver to a power amplifier, each becomes more refined, meaning it has simpler duties therefore each channel is more powerful - examples are below of this statement (obviously things will vary depending on brand. So I decided to pick the well-known brand Emotiva as my resource)

https://emotiva.com/products/amplifiers/xpa-5

This is a power amplifier. It supplies speakers with 300 watts RMS into 4 ohms. All channels driven (xpa-5 meaning all 5 channels for a 5.1 system). As you see, much more powerful than your receiver. If your receiver has "pre-outs" (out puts from your receiver to speakers) you are able to use a power amplifier with a receiver to further extend its benefits.

http://usa.denon.com/us/product/home...ersht/avrx4000

This is my receiver. It has pre outs so I am able to use the Emotiva xpa-5 to further power my speaker system because this Denon x4000 only supplies 125 per channel into 8 ohms compared to the xpa-5's 200/channel - 8 ohms as well. This allows me to purchase speakers that can handle more power, play louder without distortion, and my receiver doesn't break a sweat.

There are several types of power amplifiers. Multi channel power amplifiers such as the Emotiva xpa-5, stereo power amplifiers such as the xpa-2 (http://usa.denon.com/us/product/home...ersht/avrx4000).
and a monoblock - used for powering 1 speaker (mono meaning 1 - https://emotiva.com/products/amplifiers/xpa-1). Mono blocks are usually the most powerful, because they only supply ONE speaker with power.

As I stated, a more refined unit usually delivers more power, its less *work*. So that stereo power amplifier (xpa-2) supplies 300 watts into 8 ohms. It also has a monoblock mode which supplies an enormous 1000 watts into 8 ohms.

You can break these down so much more, but this is just a simple over-view. At least, my take.

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