Is 7.1 unnecessary if the rear seating will be directly under the speakers? - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 10Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 42 Old 01-12-2015, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 191
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Liked: 9
Is 7.1 unnecessary if the rear seating will be directly under the speakers?

Our 2nd row seating will be up against the back wall with only enough room left to recline the seats properly. Will being this close to the rear speakers be a waste of money and I should just do a 5.1 with the surrounds on the side instead? Or should I still do 7.1?
John Robinson is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 42 Old 01-12-2015, 04:02 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 20,730
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2089 Post(s)
Liked: 1332
Where will your main listening position be? Front row or back row? If it is the front row, then go for 7.1 (you'll be able to get rear-vs-side separation in the surround field). If you will typically be sitting in the back row, stick with 5.1 (surrounds high up in the back corners).

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #3 of 42 Old 01-12-2015, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 191
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Liked: 9
My MLP will be the back row on a 8" raised platform. The ceilings are only 8' so the speakers would only be a few feet over my head if I mounted them at max height.
John Robinson is offline  
post #4 of 42 Old 01-12-2015, 04:21 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 20,730
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2089 Post(s)
Liked: 1332
Then stick those surrounds in the back corners, so that they're not distractingly close.

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #5 of 42 Old 01-12-2015, 04:25 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 191
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Liked: 9
So you'd still do 7.1 then and put the rear surrounds in the corner instead of the back wall?

Here's our room so far - ignore the annotations.

John Robinson is offline  
post #6 of 42 Old 01-12-2015, 04:56 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 20,730
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2089 Post(s)
Liked: 1332
Well, I'd put the MLP in the front row (better frequency response than sitting at/near a boundary). But if you want the MLP in the back row, then I would do a 5.1 system with the surrounds in the back corners. If your AV receiver can do Wide speakers (between the fronts and surrounds) then you could do that to have a 7.1 set-up.

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #7 of 42 Old 01-12-2015, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 191
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Liked: 9
The reason the MLP is going to be in the back row is because I'm using an AT screen and the 1st row is only 10' back. I'm thinking I'll get a better experience sitting further back at 15'.
John Robinson is offline  
post #8 of 42 Old 01-12-2015, 05:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 7,596
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1903 Post(s)
Liked: 1465
John, I'll see if I can email you a few pics of my room. My rear speakers are really close to my back wall too, I had to work with what I had. But it still sounds great too me at least. I also only sit about 11ft from a 115" wide 2.35:1 screen. Once you get use to it you'll love it.
jbrown15 is online now  
post #9 of 42 Old 01-12-2015, 06:14 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 191
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Liked: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
My rear speakers are really close to my back wall too,.

Well it's not so much the rear speakers being on the back wall that worries me, it's the fact that I would essentially be sitting directly beneath them a few feet above my head. My rear seating will only be about 1-2' from the back wall.
John Robinson is offline  
post #10 of 42 Old 01-12-2015, 07:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 7,596
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1903 Post(s)
Liked: 1465
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
Well it's not so much the rear speakers being on the back wall that worries me, it's the fact that I would essentially be sitting directly beneath them a few feet above my head. My rear seating will only be about 1-2' from the back wall.
Yeah, that's exactly how my room is too. The rear seats are only 6" from that back of the wall. Like I said it wasn't ideal but I had to work with what I had.
John Robinson likes this.
jbrown15 is online now  
post #11 of 42 Old 01-12-2015, 08:48 PM
Advanced Member
 
jevans64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 903
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked: 74
I did direct radiating speakers for my side surrounds and in-wall bi-pole for the back surrounds with good results. I put the in-walls about 56" apart since my seating is about 18" from the back wall. Each driver pair ( 1" & 6.5" ) are canted at 15° from the center line. Produces a pretty wide back surround field which might not work as well with direct-radiating speakers up front. My back surrounds are Definitive Technology UIW BPZ/A.
John Robinson likes this.

HD-DVD = 94
Blu-Ray = 120 ( 24 Warner red2blu )
jevans64 is online now  
post #12 of 42 Old 01-13-2015, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 191
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Liked: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevans64 View Post
Produces a pretty wide back surround field which might not work as well with direct-radiating speakers up front.

Can you explain what you mean by this? Those rear surrounds don't work well with direct-radiating Front, Right & Center speakers?
John Robinson is offline  
post #13 of 42 Old 01-13-2015, 05:02 PM
Senior Member
 
olinda cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: maui
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Hi John,My situation is very similar to yours and I now have a 7.2 set-up that sounds great.I mounted by back speakers just a few inches below the ceiling firing just a few inches behind me when sitting in my primary seating which is in the same location as yours.Imagine the sound field as a sphere and picture your prime seating position within that sphere.I placed my sides at the same height as the rears and slightly forward of my prime seating position.
Hope this helps,JB
John Robinson likes this.
olinda cat is offline  
post #14 of 42 Old 01-13-2015, 06:49 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 191
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Liked: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by olinda cat View Post
Hi John,My situation is very similar to yours and I now have a 7.2 set-up that sounds great.I mounted by back speakers just a few inches below the ceiling firing just a few inches behind me when sitting in my primary seating which is in the same location as yours.Imagine the sound field as a sphere and picture your prime seating position within that sphere.I placed my sides at the same height as the rears and slightly forward of my prime seating position.
Hope this helps,JB

Very cool. What are your rear speakers?
John Robinson is offline  
post #15 of 42 Old 01-13-2015, 08:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
darthray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cold lake Alberta Canada
Posts: 1,642
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 306 Post(s)
Liked: 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
The reason the MLP is going to be in the back row is because I'm using an AT screen and the 1st row is only 10' back. I'm thinking I'll get a better experience sitting further back at 15'.

Lot's of very good suggestion about your near rear wall speakers dilemma problem.


I will only add this as a question or solution.


How big is your screen in case I miss it.
I sit at 10 feet using a JVC projector on a 114 inches screen and find it perfect.


The picture immerse you almost like a real theater, unless you like to sit in the middle of it or farther.


I like a big picture, some others (maybe like you, or not, like it smaller).
I think if you have a decent quality projector match with a decent screen, you can be Happy sitting at 10 feet and would solve your rear speakers problem.


Ray
darthray is online now  
post #16 of 42 Old 01-14-2015, 02:30 AM
Senior Member
 
olinda cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: maui
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
Very cool. What are your rear speakers?
I am running very unusual vintage speakers as rears.I had a mixed bag of speakers when I decided to have a dedicated Home Theater/sound room so I used what I had on hand.You Original Gangstars will chuckel when think back to when DCM Time Window1a's were the Kine and Allison Acoustic had the great Allison 6 bookshelf speaker...my rears the DCMS and my sides the Allisons.I used to be a dealer and you end up keeping what you like.My LCR are Paradigm Studio Reference.My front sub a trusty M&K 350 thx and rear a Power Sound Audio XS15se in the near field.It all sounds old-timey but good! lol Any one going to take a Maui vacation will be welcome for a demo!JB

Last edited by olinda cat; 01-14-2015 at 02:32 AM. Reason: add
olinda cat is offline  
post #17 of 42 Old 01-14-2015, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 191
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Liked: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Lot's of very good suggestion about your near rear wall speakers dilemma problem.


I will only add this as a question or solution.


How big is your screen in case I miss it.
I sit at 10 feet using a JVC projector on a 114 inches screen and find it perfect.


The picture immerse you almost like a real theater, unless you like to sit in the middle of it or farther.


I like a big picture, some others (maybe like you, or not, like it smaller).
I think if you have a decent quality projector match with a decent screen, you can be Happy sitting at 10 feet and would solve your rear speakers problem.


Ray

I'm hoping to go with 120" or larger. Bigger is better IMO
John Robinson is offline  
post #18 of 42 Old 01-14-2015, 09:12 AM
AVS Special Member
 
PrimeTime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Lower California
Posts: 1,983
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 77
I have a similar setup as you (10' to an AT screen, couch up against the back wall). I use a 7.2 setup; the rear speakers are in-ceiling units at the corners (i.e., as far apart as possible, blowing downward on the walls).

Works for me....
PrimeTime is offline  
post #19 of 42 Old 01-14-2015, 10:35 AM
Señor Member
 
RMK!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 95608
Posts: 6,538
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 761 Post(s)
Liked: 632
Hi John,

I have a similar situation 7.2 but my room is deeper and so I sit in the front row approx 12' from a 137" AT screen (this is not to close). The back row seats are on 12" riser are only 2' from the back wall. This is very unconventional but I have the surround backs on the back wall (9' ceilings) placed 1' down from the ceiling firing up (@ 30°) and essentially bouncing sound off of the ceiling. I originally had the SB's firing at that same 30° angle over the heads of the back row and right at the front row seats. I prefer the current config as the SB's now sound better to me with the up-firing ceiling bounce.

My speakers are JTR and the SB's are the Slanted 8 model with the 30° front baffle angle as part of the design. Any speaker mounted angled would work the same way.

Generally, there isn't a lot of information being fed to the surrounds backs but with certain 7.1 DTS HDMA audio tracks the 7.1 does contribute to the experience.

HToM

Opinions are not facts.
RMK! is online now  
post #20 of 42 Old 01-14-2015, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 191
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Liked: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Generally, there isn't a lot of information being fed to the surrounds backs but with certain 7.1 DTS HDMA audio tracks the 7.1 does contribute to the experience.

That makes me wonder if I should just go with a 5.1 setup then if 7.1 is only beneficial in a handful of movies
John Robinson is offline  
post #21 of 42 Old 01-14-2015, 11:25 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 20,730
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2089 Post(s)
Liked: 1332
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
That makes me wonder if I should just go with a 5.1 setup then if 7.1 is only beneficial in a handful of movies
A 7.1 set-up is beneficial with 5.1 movies as well, since the number of source channels can be scaled to the number of playback speakers (with separate info coming from the side speakers vs rear speakers).

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #22 of 42 Old 01-14-2015, 11:29 AM
Advanced Member
 
htpcforever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 853
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 460 Post(s)
Liked: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
Well it's not so much the rear speakers being on the back wall that worries me, it's the fact that I would essentially be sitting directly beneath them a few feet above my head. My rear seating will only be about 1-2' from the back wall.
That is how my room is (I have about 1 foot behind the seats to the wall). I have surround back speakers in place and I like them. I can still hear sounds from behind me using them, as well as the sounds from the surround sides.

Non-standard RAIDs can recover deleted files. Anyone who says RAID protection is only for failed drives is lying.
htpcforever is offline  
post #23 of 42 Old 01-14-2015, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 191
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Liked: 9
Where should I hang my rear surrounds then? On the back wall or in the corners angled towards the MLP? I'm afraid that with the rear seating being so close to the back wall the rear speakers, if mounted on the back wall, would just fire over my head. I'm not sure the angle of the RA CX-8's is steep enough to hit the rear seating.
John Robinson is offline  
post #24 of 42 Old 01-14-2015, 12:00 PM
Señor Member
 
RMK!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 95608
Posts: 6,538
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 761 Post(s)
Liked: 632
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
That makes me wonder if I should just go with a 5.1 setup then if 7.1 is only beneficial in a handful of movies
That is a very good question but was mentioned above it is possible to use the AVR/SSP surround sound processing from Dolby and DTS to direct parts of the 5.1 original audio signal into 7.1 or even more channels. The value of this is very subjective and IMHO, room/placement dependent. The Dolby and DTS speaker setup guides give you the correct way to do it. making small compromises can work but they do come at a cost.

With Atmos, Auro and DTS-X processing now or soon to be available, I was considering converting my Surround Back speakers for use with Atmos giving me a 5.2.4 config by adding 2 additional speakers and amplification for the 4 height channels but I have been enjoying the current setup and so, I'm reluctantly taking a wait till the dust settles approach to these new surround formats.
darthray likes this.

HToM

Opinions are not facts.

Last edited by RMK!; 01-14-2015 at 12:03 PM.
RMK! is online now  
post #25 of 42 Old 01-14-2015, 12:16 PM
Señor Member
 
RMK!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 95608
Posts: 6,538
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 761 Post(s)
Liked: 632
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
Where should I hang my rear surrounds then? On the back wall or in the corners angled towards the MLP? I'm afraid that with the rear seating being so close to the back wall the rear speakers, if mounted on the back wall, would just fire over my head. I'm not sure the angle of the RA CX-8's is steep enough to hit the rear seating.
I think you would hear the sound coming from exactly where it would be coming from. Right over your head in the back row or, from the back corners. That effect can work in certain situations and was what I dealt with when sitting in my back row and my back seats are a couple of feet off of the wall (4' or more is ideal for SB's). Since I made them up firing the sound is less localizable when sitting back there but I never get a sense of sound coming at me from behind except when sitting in the front row.

The back row right up against the back wall is the cheap seat location in any room using HT movie surround sound and it is even worse for music.
John Robinson likes this.

HToM

Opinions are not facts.
RMK! is online now  
post #26 of 42 Old 01-14-2015, 07:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
darthray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cold lake Alberta Canada
Posts: 1,642
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 306 Post(s)
Liked: 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
I'm hoping to go with 120" or larger. Bigger is better IMO
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Hi John,

I have a similar situation 7.2 but my room is deeper and so I sit in the front row approx 12' from a 137" AT screen (this is not to close). The back row seats are on 12" riser are only 2' from the back wall. This is very unconventional but I have the surround backs on the back wall (9' ceilings) placed 1' down from the ceiling firing up (@ 30°) and essentially bouncing sound off of the ceiling. I originally had the SB's firing at that same 30° angle over the heads of the back row and right at the front row seats. I prefer the current config as the SB's now sound better to me with the up-firing ceiling bounce.

My speakers are JTR and the SB's are the Slanted 8 model with the 30° front baffle angle as part of the design. Any speaker mounted angled would work the same way.

Generally, there isn't a lot of information being fed to the surrounds backs but with certain 7.1 DTS HDMA audio tracks the 7.1 does contribute to the experience.

Yes I agree, if I could have went bigger, I would have done so
But my room was restricted due to the height of the subs and center speaker at the bottom.
And also to the ceiling with the sound absorber, I got 1/8 of an inch clearance each way.
114" was the max I could do


Ray
darthray is online now  
post #27 of 42 Old 01-14-2015, 07:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
darthray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cold lake Alberta Canada
Posts: 1,642
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 306 Post(s)
Liked: 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
That makes me wonder if I should just go with a 5.1 setup then if 7.1 is only beneficial in a handful of movies
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
A 7.1 set-up is beneficial with 5.1 movies as well, since the number of source channels can be scaled to the number of playback speakers (with separate info coming from the side speakers vs rear speakers).

I guess it is a matter of preference for each end owner.


Personally, I love when a movie is encoded 7.1, but when it is recorded 5.1.
I leave at that and does not matrix into 7.1, but lots of people do and like the result.


Ray
darthray is online now  
post #28 of 42 Old 01-14-2015, 07:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
darthray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cold lake Alberta Canada
Posts: 1,642
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 306 Post(s)
Liked: 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
That is a very good question but was mentioned above it is possible to use the AVR/SSP surround sound processing from Dolby and DTS to direct parts of the 5.1 original audio signal into 7.1 or even more channels. The value of this is very subjective and IMHO, room/placement dependent. The Dolby and DTS speaker setup guides give you the correct way to do it. making small compromises can work but they do come at a cost.

With Atmos, Auro and DTS-X processing now or soon to be available, I was considering converting my Surround Back speakers for use with Atmos giving me a 5.2.4 config by adding 2 additional speakers and amplification for the 4 height channels but I have been enjoying the current setup and so, I'm reluctantly taking a wait till the dust settles approach to these new surround formats.

+1 on
The value of this is very subjective and IMHO, room/placement dependent. The Dolby and DTS speaker setup guides give you the correct way to do it. making small compromises can work but they do come at a cost.


By the way, Nice room you got
I really like what you did


Now back to subject.


Ray
RMK! likes this.
darthray is online now  
post #29 of 42 Old 01-15-2015, 07:22 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 20,730
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2089 Post(s)
Liked: 1332
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Personally, I love when a movie is encoded 7.1, but when it is recorded 5.1. I leave at that and does not matrix into 7.1, but lots of people do and like the result.
Understood. I'm just used to scaling all my audio and video sources to the playback devices. My first 7.1 set-up was in 1991; discrete 5.1 material was still 4 years away, 7.1 material a good 15 years away. So the notion of mapping each discrete channel to one and only one speaker never occurred to me. It would feel like watching DVDs using a 480x720 grid of pixels in the middle of my HD display because I didn't want to interpolate it to all the pixels on the screen.

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #30 of 42 Old 01-15-2015, 05:31 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 191
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Liked: 9
Our of curiosity - why does everyone suggest placing the rear speakers directly on the wall behind me instead of in the corners so they're angled towards the MLP? The reason I ask if I just stumbled on a few 7.1 setup tips and that's how they have their rears setup.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-4F73yNe...placement.html

John Robinson is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Speakers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off