My Journey Into Hi(er)-Fi, Getting New Speakers, & Is This "Safe?" - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 21 Old 01-25-2015, 09:33 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Question My Journey Into Hi(er)-Fi, Getting New Speakers, & Is This "Safe?"

Hi all. I am glad to have joined your site after much lurking and have pulled the trigger on some new speakers. I currently have a Klipsch set up 7.1 with big RF-3 towers, a RC-25 center, and RM-10's surrounding. I just got a Yamaha Aventage reciever (replaced an old cheapo Sony POS) and an SVS PB-10 subwoofer (replaced some POS 100W 10" from Circuit City).

The receiver has changed my life! I can't believe how much cleaner and clearer the sounds are --especially MUSIC in pure direct mode! The SVS is amazing and really shakes the house and having the nice AVR and nice sub made me notice what I had been missing! I routinely like to just sit and blast may favorite songs in PD mode and began to notice my Klipsches are too harsh on the ears in the treble/highs dept. I love them for movies, but I do enjoy a lot of music. They have plenty of bass and sound okay, but I could tell something was missing and it could be drastically better... I had previously always thought of them as very good speakers, now I was finding they were merely "okay."

I went out and listened to some better ones. Wow! Let me tell you that the only way to know if you'll be blown away by a speaker is to demo it yourself against others. I wanted something that could reproduce at least as much sound as my Klipsches (they go down to 37hz) since Pure Direct is really the only way to listen to music! There is a noticeable difference between Direct and PD and PD is just that much better IMO. PD does NOT use a sub since it only puts out what it takes in --2.0 channels.

After contemplating lots of ID companies (SVS, Ascend, etc...), I decided to only buy what I could hear. It's worth noting I got my SVS sub at Best Buy where I heard it first. I went to Magnolia to hear some new towers... HMMM No one really seemed to believe that I wanted real full range towers! I was told that smallish speakers and a sub is superior, no one really makes towers any more, manufacturers stopped because of cabinet resonance and host or other silly reasons! I heard the Martin Logan 60's and they were really nice, but I needed to hear more. I knew I didn't want anything with a built in amp/sub because of the complexity and additional sound processing. All the Bower's and Wilkins seemed to lack bass and flat to me. All the Martin Logans were very clean/clear and immersive. None of them were what I wanted, though. So I found possibly the last local premium audio brick-and-mortar store near me and gave them a visit. Without missing a beat, they suggested the KEF Q-Series/Paradigm Monitor Series.

I listened to the KEF Q700 and was blown away by the sound stage and clarity over the klipsches. I really enjoyed the Paradigm Monitors and let me tell you that you can't simply base a speakers low-end performance from the frequency response hertz figures. The Monitors had great low-end for a "42hz" response. Deeper sounding that my 37hz Klipsch. I was between these Q's and Monitors. I said I'll have to think about it and before I left he demo'd the R500 (more than I wanted to spend), but what an amazing speaker! I instantly could hear so much more from songs with which I was familiar. These had the broadest soundstage of all the speakers I've ever heard and they were so clear, crisp, and natural sounding. They even had decent bass from a 5" woofer! Astounding. I left. I should point out that the best speakers in the store --hands down-- were the KEF Blades, but at $30,000/pair, ummm... no.

I researched & decided to increase my budget because this KEF Uni-Q thing was so immersive and clear. I needed more bass, so I landed on the R700 (6.5" woofers).

I went back armed with lossless files of my own music to hear/buy the R700's. He said I should hear the Paradigm Prestige as well. I heard them and I thought they were too bright, and wasn't wowed by the soundstage. Not bad though! I sat and listened to the R700. Finally all my research and reading-of-reviews would come to fruition... NOT!! It didn't wow me like the R500's had!! They have the same mid/tweet Uni-Q, but different woofers/cabinets and crossovers. They make a difference.

I listened to the Q700, R700, Monitor 11, Studio 60, Prestige 85F, some B&W's which had a decent sound, and one more brand I don't remember. I asked him to fire up the R500 again and I instantly knew that was the sound I loved the most --both when I first heard it for fun and now when I had upped my budget! Again and again, TO ME, these were the best of the bunch regardless of specs or price.

The issue was listening to these in PD mode and getting full range sound. They have some punch and hold their own, but 5" woofers don't make the full sonic spectrum. The solution? The salesman suggested running my L/R pre-amp outs to my SVS sub and then turn sub to "off" and speakers to "large. HMM.... I had never thought of that! That would certainly solve the problem as the L/R Pre-outs still output in pure direct and all the LFE stuff in movies will go to the R500's and the Sub by way of the pre-out! Brilliant. I ended up ordering the R500's and used some of the money saved over a R700 to also get a matching R200c center speaker. They should be in any day now!! I cannot wait to got pick them up!

Now to my question: Is this safe? The R500 will be getting full range signals from music AND LFE signals from movies. Are they smart enough to know they can't play that low and just ignore the super low (and loud!) LFE signals? Does it even matter? I think I'll be alright, but I am far from an expert and I know that many of you are indeed experts. I don't want to damage my new expensive nice KEFs!

Alternatively, what if I wired it like this and kept the speakers as "small" in the AVR:

Preouts:

L --> Sub
R --> Y-cable (2 female, 1 male) ---> R/LFE sub input
LFE out --> Same Y-cable --->R/LFE sub input

This way, in PD mode, the R500's and sub will get full range for music. For movies, the 'small' R500's wouldn't get LFE since they'd be "small," but the LFE out will still make its way to the SVS sub, right? Does it matter that the Y-Cable would still be connected to the Right pre-out, or will the signal ignore that and just go straight to the sub?


Thanks in advance for any information!
dre_2ooo is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 Old 01-26-2015, 03:15 AM
Senior Member
 
uncola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oahu, Hawaii
Posts: 327
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Interesting that you went for hte R500 instead of the R700.. the cheaper kef q series has a similar thing where poeple say the 5" bookshelf is better than the 6.5" bookshelf.

Gear list: Main setup - Kef Q900, Svs sb12-nsd subwoofer, onkyo 609 receiver, epson 8350 projector, elitescreens sable 92" screen, mac mini htpc
bedroom setup: PSB Image B5, maverick tubemagic a1 amplifier, hifimediy sabre9023 dac, ZMF Fostex T50RP modded headphones
preordered gear: Light Harmonic Geek Pulse X dac and headphone amp
uncola is offline  
post #3 of 21 Old 01-26-2015, 05:34 AM
Senior Member
 
kjfalls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 201
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Just curious how many hours you had on the Klipsch' before you determined them too harsh? I'm not a big fan of the more current Klipsch' and believe you get what you pay for, but just curious if you let them burn in. I'm a firm believer in burn-in of both speakers and electronics. I believe speaker surrounds and diaphragms will change with use eventually settling into some consistency. Many electronics manufacturers will burn-in units before shipments to catch any issues before shipping.
kjfalls is offline  
post #4 of 21 Old 01-26-2015, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncola View Post
Interesting that you went for hte R500 instead of the R700.. the cheaper kef q series has a similar thing where poeple say the 5" bookshelf is better than the 6.5" bookshelf.
I am not sure what makes the difference, but the R500 just sounds better to my ears than the R700 did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjfalls View Post
Just curious how many hours you had on the Klipsch' before you determined them too harsh? I'm not a big fan of the more current Klipsch' and believe you get what you pay for, but just curious if you let them burn in. I'm a firm believer in burn-in of both speakers and electronics. I believe speaker surrounds and diaphragms will change with use eventually settling into some consistency. Many electronics manufacturers will burn-in units before shipments to catch any issues before shipping.
Oh, I've had them for about 3 years now. Fully broken in.
dre_2ooo is online now  
post #5 of 21 Old 01-26-2015, 06:38 AM
AVS Special Member
 
KidHorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Derwood, Maryland
Posts: 3,030
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 267 Post(s)
Liked: 270
Don't worry about sending a full signal to the KEFs. All speakers are made to handle it. They won't produce much at 20 Hz, but they won't be damaged.


I like KEF too. I have some XQs. Coaxial drivers are a superior design. Not only do they save space, they also eliminate potential lobing issues.
KidHorn is online now  
post #6 of 21 Old 01-26-2015, 07:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Elihawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Iowa City, Iowa
Posts: 2,822
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 210 Post(s)
Liked: 261
Not sure about the "burn in" thing, but plenty of studies AND measurements have shown that speakers don't change too much as they go from brand new to gently used. Our ears do adjust and tend to start to like the sound more with more hours of listening, however.

I guess the question still stands...could a movie like Live, Die, Repeat damage the Kef speakers run in this mode? I would be concern, but don't have the answer to your question...but would love to know!

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and SLS Q line Audio surrounds, Outlaw LFM1 Plus sub, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
Set up #3: JBL130, JBL120C and Klipsch synergy sub
Elihawk is online now  
post #7 of 21 Old 01-26-2015, 07:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
fatbottom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 4,114
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 548 Post(s)
Liked: 220
I wouldn't set the R500 full range for movies. Lowest would be 50/60hz.

For music yeah you can use full range.

Pivetta Opera
Bose Jewel speakers.
fatbottom is offline  
post #8 of 21 Old 01-26-2015, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
Don't worry about sending a full signal to the KEFs. All speakers are made to handle it. They won't produce much at 20 Hz, but they won't be damaged.
That's what I'm thinking. My research says that some speakers have a low pass filter to ignore them, I just don't know if ALL speakers are engineered with this.


Physically, the low frequency shouldn't cause them to extend/retract any further, just at a lower speed. The small woofer size and physics of the cabinet will simply make these slow cycles inaudible but undamaging, right?
dre_2ooo is online now  
post #9 of 21 Old 01-26-2015, 05:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fatbottom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 4,114
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 548 Post(s)
Liked: 220
If they can't reproduce those frequencies why send them it (for movies)
Again no problem for music, just talking for movies.

My mains go down to 36hz but I have crossover- mainly due to room size I have played music and adjusted crossover until I get a decent bass sound but not too boomy. 70hz seems about right. Would use 60hz but then want the subwoofer to do some work too. They are a bit big for the room lol

Pivetta Opera
Bose Jewel speakers.
fatbottom is offline  
post #10 of 21 Old 01-26-2015, 07:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
A9X-308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia; now run by adults.
Posts: 5,563
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 223 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
Don't worry about sending a full signal to the KEFs. All speakers are made to handle it. They won't produce much at 20 Hz, but they won't be damaged.
Wrong. Below tune ALL ported speakers have no way of controlling excursion, so sending ULF to them can easily do damage. Below is a Beyma 15G40 in an enclosure tuned to 37Hz. Note the tune (minimum excursion) at 37Hz and the rapidly increasing excursion below tune for constant power. The basic shape of the excursion is the same for all ported enclosures, and only the numbers will vary between them.

A9X-308 is offline  
post #11 of 21 Old 01-26-2015, 09:25 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Well, I'm still unsure. I would have to believe that one would have to somehow keep the Db level constant for that type of excursion/frequency ratio. 85 Db of 10hz takes a TON of power I'd imagine.


I have run several bass sweep tests several times on a few different ported speakers and they haven't been destroyed. I use slow sweeps from 100hz to 5hz to try and determine crossover points and see at what frequencies the different speakers drop off. My ported Klipsches and my ported SVS sub certainly don't move erratically trying to make infrasonic noises... try it out! You can find lots of them on youtube. I just ran one on my tablet's little baby speakers at 100% volume and it's not broken.

Regardless, what about this diagram (see attached)?


If I set it up that way and then...
-Set fronts to small in AVR.
-set sub to yes in AVR.
-set 60hz AVR crossover.
-Set crossover knob on sub to 60hz.

I think all of the following would be true:
1. Pure Direct 2.0 channel for music only: R500's and SVS get full range unprocessed signal
2. Non-Pure Direct (ie. straight, DSP, etc...) processes and sends sub 60hz content including LFE to sub.
3. Sub always outputs sub 60hz content
4. R500's only see sub 60hz content in Pure Direct


(I understand there is a slope on crossovers, I'm just keeping it simple)

Am I missing anything? Is it safe to use a Y-cable in this manner?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Untitled.jpg
Views:	13
Size:	51.5 KB
ID:	505297  
dre_2ooo is online now  
post #12 of 21 Old 01-26-2015, 09:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
A9X-308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia; now run by adults.
Posts: 5,563
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 223 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by dre_2ooo View Post
Well, I'm still unsure. I would have to believe that one would have to somehow keep the Db level constant for that type of excursion/frequency ratio.
The curve above is for the same input power at all frequencies.
A9X-308 is offline  
post #13 of 21 Old 01-26-2015, 09:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
A9X-308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia; now run by adults.
Posts: 5,563
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 223 Post(s)
Liked: 133
^^ Dunno where the rest of the post went.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by dre_2ooo View Post
I have run several bass sweep tests several times on a few different ported speakers and they haven't been destroyed.

I use slow sweeps from 100hz to 5hz to try and determine crossover points and see at what frequencies the different speakers drop off.
Most sweeps are done at about 75dB, or a fraction of a watt of applied power. Now play the system a bit louder than typical and the circumstances will be different, and potentially damaging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dre_2ooo View Post
My ported Klipsches and my ported SVS sub certainly don't move erratically trying to make infrasonic noises... try it out!
Ive been designing and building speakers for a long time. I have seen speakers damaged from unintended application of LF signals, and overexcursion can be a single time fault that permanently damages a drive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dre_2ooo View Post
You can find lots of them on youtube. I just ran one on my tablet's little baby speakers at 100% volume and it's not broken.
As that is a complete integrated system, it would be easy and cheap for the designer to enure that no matter what signal applied, the user is not able to damage the driver(s): saves potential warranty claims. They'd also not be ported.

I have no need for a youtube video to test with: I have my own test and measuring tools including a calibrated mic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dre_2ooo View Post
Am I missing anything? Is it safe to use a Y-cable in this manner?
Maybe not, but it depends upon the specific topology of the L and R output stages. As each will have a near zero output impedance, you may effectively short each output.
A9X-308 is offline  
post #14 of 21 Old 01-26-2015, 10:39 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
What if I got a simple switcher to toggle between R and LFE? It'd be a pain to remember to switch it between movies/music, but it'd be the safest way to achieve what I want...
dre_2ooo is online now  
post #15 of 21 Old 01-27-2015, 03:43 AM
AVS Special Member
 
KidHorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Derwood, Maryland
Posts: 3,030
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 267 Post(s)
Liked: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
Wrong. Below tune ALL ported speakers have no way of controlling excursion, so sending ULF to them can easily do damage. Below is a Beyma 15G40 in an enclosure tuned to 37Hz. Note the tune (minimum excursion) at 37Hz and the rapidly increasing excursion below tune for constant power. The basic shape of the excursion is the same for all ported enclosures, and only the numbers will vary between them.


Do you realize that prior to home theaters, people just had 2 speakers and they were always sent a full range signal.
KidHorn is online now  
post #16 of 21 Old 01-27-2015, 03:57 AM
AVS Special Member
 
fatbottom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 4,114
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 548 Post(s)
Liked: 220
"Do you realize that prior to home theaters, people just had 2 speakers and they were always sent a full range signal."

Back then, ultra low bass wasn't present in audio signal...the only thing that WAS was record deck pickup drop lol

Pivetta Opera
Bose Jewel speakers.
fatbottom is offline  
post #17 of 21 Old 01-27-2015, 08:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
A9X-308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia; now run by adults.
Posts: 5,563
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 223 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
Do you realize that prior to home theaters, people just had 2 speakers and they were always sent a full range signal.
Yes. But irrespective of whether the LF signal is intentional (ULF SFX) or not (eg LP disc warps), it doesn't change the physics of the operation of a ported speaker.
A9X-308 is offline  
post #18 of 21 Old Yesterday, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
I ended up finding an RCA powered (so it can use an IR remote signal) 4-source switcher for $9 at my local A/V store. I hooked that up and can simply switch the signal going to the sub from L/R to LFE using a remote control or the button on the switcher.


The KEFs came in and I hooked them up. At first they were clear, but shallow. After45 mins into a CD, they must have broken-in a little bit because the sound became smooth and full of breadth and depth. I love them!!
dre_2ooo is online now  
post #19 of 21 Old Today, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Something to note: the owner's manual shows a 2hz to 20,000hz range.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Screenshot_2015-01-29-11-14-10-1_1422551765372.png
Views:	3
Size:	58.5 KB
ID:	510026  
dre_2ooo is online now  
post #20 of 21 Unread Today, 11:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
KidHorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Derwood, Maryland
Posts: 3,030
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 267 Post(s)
Liked: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by dre_2ooo View Post
I ended up finding an RCA powered (so it can use an IR remote signal) 4-source switcher for $9 at my local A/V store. I hooked that up and can simply switch the signal going to the sub from L/R to LFE using a remote control or the button on the switcher.


The KEFs came in and I hooked them up. At first they were clear, but shallow. After45 mins into a CD, they must have broken-in a little bit because the sound became smooth and full of breadth and depth. I love them!!

With the subwoofer you really don't want to pass it through anything that isn't shielded. You'll probably be OK, but if you get a hum, it may be because of the RCA switch.


You really didn't need to do this. There's no way your speaker would be damaged by sending a low frequency signal. The speaker is a completely different animal than a powered subwoofer.
KidHorn is online now  
post #21 of 21 Unread Today, 11:18 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dre_2ooo View Post
I ended up finding an RCA powered (so it can use an IR remote signal) 4-source switcher for $9 at my local A/V store. I hooked that up and can simply switch the signal going to the sub from L/R to LFE using a remote control or the button on the switcher.


The KEFs came in and I hooked them up. At first they were clear, but shallow. After45 mins into a CD, they must have broken-in a little bit because the sound became smooth and full of breadth and depth. I love them!!

With the subwoofer you really don't want to pass it through anything that isn't shielded. You'll probably be OK, but if you get a hum, it may be because of the RCA switch.


You really didn't need to do this. There's no way your speaker would be damaged by sending a low frequency signal. The speaker is a completely different animal than a powered subwoofer.

Yeah I'm just paranoid and the opinions seem controversial and inconclusive. I do find it interesting that it says 2hz in the owner's manual. What concerns me I guess is that .1/LFE signals are +10db over the regular channels. Plus, there's less strain on the receiver if it sends signal to the sub rather than powering the fronts (for movies).

I don't get any humming, but do get a "thump" every time I switch the subwoofer's source..
dre_2ooo is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Speakers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off