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Research: What would you prefer?

3K views 102 replies 36 participants last post by  johnplayerson 
#1 · (Edited)
Hello all,

I work for a small high-end speaker manufacturer (I won't mention who). We have an opportunity to release a line of high-end entry level speakers for stereo or home theater use.

Currently, we've designed the speakers to be as small as possible without sacrificing sound quality. But before we commit to that approach, we'd like to hear from you. So the question is this:

For an HT system in the $1000 range, would you prefer speakers to be as small as possible? Or would you feel you're getting a better value with slightly larger cabinets that offer a bit more low end?

Keep in mind that either way, these speakers are meant to be paired with a subwoofer which will make the difference in bass virtually negligible.

We'd like to hear your thoughts.
 
#2 ·
What sensitivity and power handling are you shooting for?
 
#5 ·
We see people asking for small, but capable speakers all the time around here (the Bose syndrome centered around WAF). The terms small and capable are a dichotomy. And the smaller the speaker is, the less capable it will be. That being said, many companies are offering small, but capable bookshelf-sized speakers at even budget prices (EMP Tek R5Bi and ELAC B5 to mention just two, but there are plenty of others). And integrated with a subwoofer, these speakers go a long way in filling many needs for a lot of people. Too small, and I’m not as interested, unless it’s for a very small room or den.
 
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#6 ·
I appreciate the comments so far. Thank you. Keep in mind who these speakers are targeting. There are people who want better sound than a HTIB but don't have the real estate for floorstanding models or large bookshelves with integrated subs. We're well aware of the limitations of bookshelves so if we go ahead with this project, they need to be the very best that a bookshelf can possibly be.

I'd like to provide an example: the SVS Prime 4 inch 2 ways (excellent speakers). These are very small speakers that perform very well for what they are. But if the cost were the same, and the drivers remain the same, would you prefer a larger cabinet?
 
#7 ·
Would prefer a little higher sensitivity.
 
#11 ·
I'm not even reading the other responses, I want to leave an unbiased opinion.

I prefer my LR speakers to be towers, so I don't have to deal with stands, and so that I know the manufacturer has taken advantage of the space available to them when building this pair.

Center, I want to be as tonally matched to the LR speakers as absolutely possible.

Surrounds, I prefer in-wall/in-ceiling, but I can deal with small bookshelf units if they are not too obtrusive. My watching area is fairly small and my surround mounting options are limited. I am probably the minority in this aspect.

As you stated, I depend on a subwoofer for LFE, so don't really care if the main speakers extend below 70-80hz.
 
#12 ·
Hello all,

I work for a small high-end speaker manufacturer (I won't mention who). Currently we have an opportunity to release a line of high-end entry level speakers for stereo or home theater use.

Currently, we've designed the speakers to be as small as possible without sacrificing sound quality. But before we commit to that approach, we'd like to hear from you. So the question is this:

For an HT system in the $1000 range, would you prefer speakers to be as small as possibly? Or would you feel you're getting a better value with slightly larger cabinets that offer a bit more low end?

Keep in mind that either way, these speakers are meant to be paired with a subwoofer which will make the difference in bass virtually negligible.

We'd like to hear your thoughts.
If you are selling to a "mature" audience, then smaller is better. If you are going to hit up the young, dumb, male demographic, then bigger is better in their eyes. So, IMO, your target market is the deciding factor.

BTW, will you be selling a "matching" sub with the system?
 
#13 ·
What do you consider young and dumb? I'm nearly 40 and I watch movies at reference level in a dedicated home theater room that is acoustically treated. My current speakers (PSA MTM-210's) are not considered huge like a tower would be, but with dual 10" woofers I consider them large. I have a total of six 10" woofers across the front stage with an SVS PC13 Ultra sub that knocks paint off the ceiling! This setup with larger woofers allows reference level sound with absolute clarity. All previous "smaller" speakers that I owned were unable to do this without major ear fatigue.

I also have a problem with needing a "matching" sub. What's the point there?
 
#14 ·
Bigger cabinets equate to increased material cost, packaging cost, handling, storage, and transportation cost so, if the difference in bass is as virtually negligible as you say it is, then logically I don't really see how the bigger cabinets will translate to getting a better value. That is, except if the aforementioned cost factors will have, for one reason or another, a virtually negligible effect on the asking price of the product, and not counting the aesthetic design properties of the product, nor counting the *feeling* of getting a better value, as that IMO is very hard to judge without having seen or heard the product.
 
#20 ·
SpeakerMaker, listen to me carefully and I can make you a rich man! Everybody on this forum (except me I think) complains about their wives not letting them buy the speakers they want. It's sickening and I get tired of all the whining.

So...

Build a quality sounding speaker that looks like "flowers" or a "portrait of a womans children" and you will sell out the moment they go up! :D :D :D

(I'm kinda serious actually)
 
#32 ·
Build a quality sounding speaker that looks like "flowers" or a "portrait of a womans children" and you will sell out the moment they go up!
No. Make them look like shoes. :D
 
#23 ·
That's OK. Currently I am not using tower speakers. I will keep silent on what I am using for now, let it be known that they are not Bose or any other major maker. One thing about small speakers is that I can use the same speaker for all 5 locations, which is what I am doing currently. I am in the market for new speakers, and looking at Chanes, so that should give you an idea of what I'm thinking.
 
#25 ·
do people still buy bookshelves? dont you need a stand for them to get the correct listening height which takes up the same footprint as a floorstanding speaker? for me its either small enough to attach on a wall or big enough to stand on its own...wonder what the sales stats are for bookshelves? wonder how those numbers compare homeowner vs apt renter. Im guessing its the renters who buy bookshelves. guess its all target market.
 
#30 ·
As an older fellow, subject to struggling against audio superstition and myths, I would prefer the larger cabinet, which I assume is likely not '"much" larger anyways. This is just my bias, based on ignorance. In this regard I am maybe similar to the majority of consumers. Indeed I looked at some speakers (you mentioned the line earlier) and felt like I needed more size. Hope this perspective helps.
 
#31 ·
It does and I appreciate it. For what its worth, I found the speaker I mentioned earlier to be very surprising. There may be better out there but its among the best speakers I've heard for the size and price. As a fellow manufacturer, I'm a fan of their products give and them a lot of credit.
 
#33 ·
At 150 watts, you would need a sensitivity of 90 dB to hit reference of 105 dB at 10 feet. I'd wager most people watch at 13-15 feet. You'll need to go as low as 65 Hz to cross over well with a sub at 80 Hz. Accomplish all of that in the smallest cabinet you can. If ported, don't port out the back (wall mounting). Port out the front or top.
 
#38 ·
I think your target audience is going to care about aesthetics almost as much as sound. Many consumers have a belief that you should be able to get great sound from small packages. I am not sure we on this forum represent the average consumer.

The question becomes how small is small. I think your average consumer would not call a bookshelf speaker small. I have some speakers that I consider small. I would guess that they are about 8x5(h x w). My wife would say they were medium sized :)
 
#40 ·
For an HT system in the $1000 range, would you prefer speakers to be as small as possibly? Or would you feel you're getting a better value with slightly larger cabinets that offer a bit more low end?
I think RayGuy has the answer. I seem to be the oddball in the male demographic, preferring my speakers to be inconspicuous, or at least not the elephant in the room. My main system consists of (4) Paradigm Signature S1. Small, even by bookshelf standards. Everyone else I know or have known, who are serious hobbyists, will go as big as their wives let them (yes, I know there's a joke in there somewhere). I, on the other hand, even though divorced - so no boss, don't want to see "boxes" cluttering up my spaces.

Tough being in your predicament. Do most people - even serious hobbyists - think bigger is better? Probably. Even though that's not always the case. Do males have speaker envy? Probably. Do serious hobbyists like looking at and showing off their equipment (sorry about the innuendo that keeps popping up :rolleyes:)? Most do. So I think the most accurate answer is that most serious hobbyists are not that concerned with size. However, their wives are. ;)
 
#48 ·
I see your point and looking back, I see the point RayGuy is making. And I do agree that many people blindly believe that bigger is better. Personally I don't always think that's the case. But there plenty of arguments for and against big speakers. We're not interested in opening that can of worms except to say, ever so generically, that there are advantages and disadvantages of both large and small speakers.

It is a predicament indeed. And like it or not, the wife factor is a big deal.
 
#43 ·
if you are designing an integrated system with a sub for 1k, I think you will be in a losing market. even bose has their pricepoint under 500. will be a hard sale imo. as soon as you mentioned sub I think htib. many music lovers only want 2 speakers, so with the soundbars, wives, audiophiles, big box store, bose, gallo, etc...what market you aim at will be the deciding factor and most markets have been covered to death.

I also know some bookshelves sound awesome. If I remember when thx 1st came out, the best systems seemed to be all 5 speakers being identical bookshelves. In my case or anyone with a large room, smaller speakers just dont have the output levels.
 
#45 ·
#46 ·
1. Not everyone listens at reference level...I have 86 db sensitivity speaker and a 75 watt/channel AVR and my system gets plenty loud for a mid-large sized room!
2. Even guys sometimes like speakers that sound AND look good...
3. Regardless of the speaker size, and I think 5 1/2 inch driver is as small as I would go, a 12 inch subwoofer with 250 watts or greater power will be required, unless the room is small (for HT, at least).
 
#47 · (Edited)
Well you ruled out tower speakers, and you ruled out an out of the box type system. All this leaves in between is a bookshelf style speaker, such as a quality monitor. The Emotiva Stealth speakers with 8 inch drivers and ribbon tweeters come to mind.

To me that does not leave much debate about the size of cabinet you are asking about. It would also seem that you would be competing with everyone and their dog, in this range. Including the big players like Klipsch and Polk.

My opinion your going to have to find a niche somewhere with the drivers you are using, or find something that is proprietary and performs like a dream, so you can get a high price. Emotiva choose those ribbon tweeters for a reason. Otherwise your really just pumping out another small monitor, and those are made everywhere by everyone.

Apparently emo is considering making a stealth 88 (double 8 inch bass version).

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/286-l...mped-reference-monitor-airmotiva-tweeter.html
 
#51 ·
Thank you for addressing this. Its a bit off topic but you've brought up a point that is critical. We are very well aware of the vast, high-level competition. As a small company, we have only one choice. Offer something that none of the other guys are or scrap the project altogether. We don't have the excess capital that larger companies do so when we make something, it has to be bulletproof

You mentioned having a niche, That's exactly what we're relying on. We will be doing something that is proprietary. We're also looking to gain the upper hand from our parts. Being small and having lower operating costs allows us to take certain liberties without the customer seeing a higher price.

We're not trying to take over the world here, we're just looking to offer something unique and provide a level of value that we don't believe currently exists. Its a very tall order. If we go through with the project, hopefully some of you will tell us honestly if we achieved our goal.
 
#58 · (Edited)
Of the 2 choices given, I'd choose bass (mid bass actually). That is what sells in the demographic it sounds like you are targeting. I have many married friends who are dealing with WAF and know just enough to not go Bose. When I've gone speaker shopping with them, the bookshelf that they thought "sounded fuller/beefier" was the bookshelf that was purchased.
 
#69 ·
Thanks for the comment. The PSBs are great little speakers indeed. But I'm not sure exactly how cabinet size correlates to the problem you've mentioned. It seems to me that this is an issue with the drivers and/or the crossover. I'd be willing to bet that replacing a few crossover components with higher-quality alternatives could solve the problem.

To go off on a brief tangent, its funny that I rarely hear consumers mention the crossover. A high quality crossover is essential to the sound quality, power handling, and longevity of the speaker. Coincidentally, the crossover is the best place for manufacturers to reduce costs. Since the consumers never see the components, they generally go overlooked.

I can't get into specifics but I can tell you basic things like polypropylene capacitors provide better sound than electrolytic or combinations of the two (you'll notice this most at higher volumes). They also maintain the same values over much longer periods of time than their cheaper alternatives.

The crossover components are a key factor behind the success of our previous projects.

Long story short (too late) the issue you've mentioned is something we will make sure our speakers are not plagued by. As I touched on before, we're able to take certain liberties on quality without the cost trickling down to the consumer.
 
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