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post #1 of 29 Old 08-24-2015, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Looking for floor standings without a center or sub

Newbie to this site and looking for some recommendations from you who are much more knowledgeable than I.

My father just moved into a new place and I'm trying to get some audio set up for him. Got him a Onkyo TX-SR804 receiver few years back and should still be able to push some good floors. The new home has 4 Bose ceiling speakers that were already pre installed. Two are a little bit in front of the viewing couch and two are behind it. I'm looking into the front left and right speakers and was preferring floorstanding. They are not big fans of bookshelf speaker stands and also have an issue with room for a center (unless it was about 7 inches depth or less and was aesthetically pleasing with the set to the folks) Would like to spend around $200-$350ish per speaker. Because of space, I do not really see them getting a sub, sadly.. They are about 90% TV/movies and 10% music. I would love to find some strong speakers that will get them into the movie or also allow them to watch their morning news with clarity. Looking for a few recommendations. I was looking at the HTD level 2's and level 3's but the 3's might be a tad out of price point. Unfortunately parents are also driven by the cosmetic look so hoping for a rich looking dark brown or pleasing clean black (2nd choice) cabinet. Looking online, the dark wood cabinet drew me to the HTDs as well as their good sound reviews I read about. I also looked at the Emp tek RT55Ti's but concerned that wood will clash with all their other dark woods. Could work if would be the best blend to their audio needs. BB and Fry's close by but low selection. Saw the Klipsch R-28f at $359 and the Polk TSx440t at $263. Polks cabinets look nice though, didn't sound amazing at Frys. A helpful guy from audioholics mentioned the Klipsch rf-82 ii, they are definitely on the high end of price point and not sure if the lightwood will work and such a large speaker. Going to consider that one though. Not sure what would be the best for low-end and clear highs with no sub or center. Maybe the speakers I mentioned are overkill and I'm overthinking it as my typical MO. Blahh

-What are some good recommendations for l/r's that would sound strong without a center or sub? or is some center solution a must
-Could two of the ceiling speakers be used as a center or bad idea?
-or just use all 4 ceiling speakers as the surrounds?
-can the receiver just be set to Dolby/THX with no center connected and still push the highs where it should?

I really appreciate any feedback. Apologies for my ramblings. Would love to blow them away with "real" speakers
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post #2 of 29 Old 08-24-2015, 08:44 PM
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The RT55Tis do come in a glossy black color as well:
http://emptek.com/images/E55Ti_Black_large.jpg

Another possibility, $600/pair shipped and claims to go down to 25Hz (which means 35Hz is more likely, but that's still plenty good if true):
http://www.amazon.com/BIC-Amercia-Ac...s=bic+speakers

Depending on the size of the room and how far away from the speakers the viewing position is, you just might be able to get away without a center using these. Also, the claimed 98db sensitivity will work well with the AVR...Onkyo is one of the brands most notorious for inflating their power specs.

With those horns you will get no shortage of highs, trust me. And according to lots of people who've heard the Klipsch entry level series, the BIC horns aren't shrill/harsh.
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post #3 of 29 Old 08-24-2015, 10:31 PM
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.02

a good project for working on together,
can be made to integrate well with "decor'
great bragging rights
http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/David.
or

I myself went with the DIYSG Fusion 15's, , with that 15" SEOS / CD, and 15" woofers, awesome stereo about 6 ft spread
get the flat packs

DIY FAN Denon X5200 , Emotiva UPA7, for 7.3.4 ATMOS/DSU/NEO:X SHARP 80" LED/LCD
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2 30" BF THTLP'S , SUBMAXIMUS, & 2 LOWARHORNs
www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1485120-submaximus-large-front-loaded-horn
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...orn-build.html
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post #4 of 29 Old 08-24-2015, 10:45 PM
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Polks produce decent bass. Hard to recommend something like that here though. Just the same, some Infinity speakers are quite good too. If you go on Amazon, RBH are worth a look, a good price on their towers.

Another way to go is the Berringer PA speakers in 15" or maybe the 12", there is a long thread from a member here. You should find it and read it. At their price, def worth a shot...and they may actually perfectly suit your dad's old school musical tastes.
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post #5 of 29 Old 08-25-2015, 06:08 AM
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For bass, just consider that a couple 8" woofers will be a fraction of the displacement of a 15" woofer. The few watts that a typical 100w per channel amp can provide to low bass is a small fraction of what a dedicated subwoofer amp provides (300w - 1000w). So movie bass will be anemic compared to a midrange sub.

To mitigate the loss of a sub, I'd look to pro style speakers (you had a couple such suggestions above) and/or a beefy 300 wpc amp.

SEOS Fusion 10 Max, SVS PB10 and DIY SI18 subs, Denon X4000, Epson 8500 & 2.35:1 AT Screen
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post #6 of 29 Old 08-25-2015, 09:55 AM
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http://smile.amazon.com/Behringer-B2...ringer+speaker

$159!

Does anyone have a link to the member post?
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post #7 of 29 Old 08-25-2015, 10:08 AM
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^ It helps to bother reading the OP's post: "Unfortunately parents are also driven by the cosmetic look ..."
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post #8 of 29 Old 08-25-2015, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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[QUOTE=Zorba922;36760466

Depending on the size of the room and how far away from the speakers the viewing position is, you just might be able to get away without a center using these. Also, the claimed 98db sensitivity will work well with the AVR...Onkyo is one of the brands most notorious for inflating their power specs.

With those horns you will get no shortage of highs, trust me. And according to lots of people who've heard the Klipsch entry level series, the BIC horns aren't shrill/harsh.[/QUOTE]

Good info, thanks for the reply. Have an ovation not too far going to listen to the Klipsch soon. Haven't seen a true demonstration of those and would love to hear these horns people either love or drive them mad.
Not sure why I didn't think about the black version of the emptek's. Those definitely are visually stunning! Might not be that deep for the bass but look like may be all-around nice package and cheaper than the Klipsch.
The BIC's don't have that same cabinet 'bling' but lot of positive reviews I see. Will show some pics to the folks and see what they think. Plan to stop by the next day
They said about 10 feet away but off-center a lot of time. Not much of a sweet spot or room for toe in. Thanks again for the good info
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post #9 of 29 Old 08-25-2015, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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[QUOTE=asarose247;
or

I myself went with the DIYSG Fusion 15's, , with that 15" SEOS / CD, and 15" woofers, awesome stereo about 6 ft spread
get the flat packs[/QUOTE]

Good idea but it would just end up being in my full project and my bucket list is getting too full already
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post #10 of 29 Old 08-25-2015, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for all the ideas on the Behringer speakers but yeah they just would not fit in the decor.
They just have a bit of space on each side of the TV for speakers but no room for a sub but believe they can get by. Good chosen speakers will still open their eyes up compared to their prior system I think.
See 2nd recommendation for the RBH but assume those are just the same as the Emptek's with new branding? Hopefully they'll add a little bit of base as well
So from the replies sounds like not having a center will not be a major issue. Should I use those 4 ceiling speakers already in for surrounds with the L/R?
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post #11 of 29 Old 08-25-2015, 08:30 PM
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Consider the Monitor Audio Bronze 5, which are close to budget, or the Monitor Audio Bronze 6, which are a bit over budget.

Monitor Audio Bronze 5 and Bronze 6 -

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=MRBS5

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=MRBS6

Also, you will have a very hard time beating these speaker at the price -

Wharfedale Diamond 10.7 Floorstanding speakers, 2x6.5" - £799/pr ($1300/pr Retail) -

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-15494-w...eakers-pr.aspx

Again, I just don't see how any speakers can beat the DIAMOND for that price.

Currently, available in Black, Rosewood, and Cherry.

Cherry is not remotely as orange as the photos make it out. I have the Diamond 9.6 in Cherry and they are a very soft medium brown, with just the slightest hint of red.

The Rosewood, look very nice, darker with a stronger hint of red and a wider grain.

The Diamond Bass Response down to 30hz.

Steve/bluewizard

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post #12 of 29 Old 08-25-2015, 08:35 PM
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The Wharfedale Diamond 10.7 are an older discontinued model, the latest version of the Diamond 230 floorstanding are similar to the Diamond 10.7 but minus the Mid-Range driver.

Wharfedale Diamond 230 floorstanding - $799/pr -

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-281573-...-speakers.aspx

Steve/bluewizard

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post #13 of 29 Old 08-25-2015, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ekkaiden@att.net View Post
Good info, thanks for the reply. Have an ovation not too far going to listen to the Klipsch soon. Haven't seen a true demonstration of those and would love to hear these horns people either love or drive them mad.
Not sure why I didn't think about the black version of the emptek's. Those definitely are visually stunning! Might not be that deep for the bass but look like may be all-around nice package and cheaper than the Klipsch.
The BIC's don't have that same cabinet 'bling' but lot of positive reviews I see. Will show some pics to the folks and see what they think. Plan to stop by the next day
They said about 10 feet away but off-center a lot of time. Not much of a sweet spot or room for toe in. Thanks again for the good info
You're welcome. The BIC PL89 is nicer-looking in person than in most pics, due to their glossy tops and bottoms which aren't noticeable from the straight on angles that those photos are usually taken; also, some people prefer how they look with their grills off to show the gold/orange woofers. But the EMPTeks are in a whole different league in the looks department, no doubt.
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post #14 of 29 Old 08-25-2015, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
^ It helps to bother reading the OP's post: "Unfortunately parents are also driven by the cosmetic look ..."
"...hoping for a rich looking dark brown or pleasing clean black (2nd choice) cabinet"



Yes, it does help to read.
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post #15 of 29 Old Yesterday, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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The Wharfedale Diamond 10.7 are an older discontinued model, the latest version of the Diamond 230 floorstanding are similar to the Diamond 10.7 but minus the Mid-Range driver.


Steve/bluewizard
Thanks for the options. I will check them out more online tonight. Those look to have better lower end than the ones i first mentioned. Visiting pops too so i can show some pics. So many choices my head is spinning! I am an overthinker as you may have noticed!
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post #16 of 29 Old Yesterday, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Seeing pops tonight and will run some pics by him. After further looking at the empteks (RBH), they seem great but not very good in the base department if there is no sub. Sad, because they are a good size for his spot and look stunning!

I did get a hands on with the Klipsch rf-82ii's yesterday. The sounded pretty good and pushed some base but not sure if that horn sound would get old after continued listening. It does kind of throw the high's at you. Also, it is a huge speaker with rear port. Going to measure the space again tonight but worried it would be pretty close to the wall and mess with the base port again. Also not the sexiest looking speaker out there and would cost $856 after tax. A bit over budget but maybe doable.

I did see a sale today on the Polk RTi12 for $279 a speaker, today only. About the same price as the TSx440t. Wasn't a huge polk fan in the past but remember the cabinets looking good. Are these any good at that price point compared to others?

You guys have all been great with the help and suggestions. My head might be spinning a bit with all the options but greatly appreciated. Keep em coming
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post #17 of 29 Old Yesterday, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RBCS View Post
"...hoping for a rich looking dark brown or pleasing clean black (2nd choice) cabinet"



Yes, it does help to read.
If you consider the Behringer's outrageously ugly plastic cabinet (though I'm sure they sound great for the money) to be "pleasing clean black" then ok, whatever ... LOL
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post #18 of 29 Old Yesterday, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ekkaiden@att.net View Post
I did see a sale today on the Polk RTi12 for $279 a speaker, today only. About the same price as the TSx440t. Wasn't a huge polk fan in the past but remember the cabinets looking good. Are these any good at that price point compared to others?
For $280 apiece, that's a pretty sweet deal on the RTi12. If I remember correctly, the floorstanding RTi speakers are less bright than the bookshelf RTi ones, although I remember people saying that they do require a pretty powerful amp to sound their best. But if this is from a local place that would allow you to return them for a full refund if you don't like it, it is worth a try, in my opinion.

PS. Be skeptical of the frequency response numbers---these are the most frequently fudged specs in audio, second only to "watts per channel" claims. And Polk is one of the worst offenders. It always cracks me up when they claim their lousy Monitor 50 towers can go down to 42Hz! The RTi12 is of course a much better speaker than the M50, but I'd add at least 10Hz to its minimum FR spec.

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Stereophile Review - Wharfedale Diamond 10.7 Floorstanding speakers -

http://www.stereophile.com/content/w...07-loudspeaker

"The Diamond 10.7 is an impressive speaker that provides many of the attributes of pricier floorstanders in an attractive, small-footprint cabinet at an accessible price. It should be on the short list of anyone shopping for something at or near the competitive price point of $1299/pair."

"'This Is All I Ask' (LP, Columbia CS 8856), was reproduced with the master's voice in all its silky, voluptuous glory. Higher in the audioband, the Wharfedale reproduced well-recorded pianos with clarity and extension and no trace of coloration."

"
The Diamond 10.7's bass performance was natural and extended, particularly with jazz. In Anat Fort's 'A Long Story,' Ed Schuller's double bass was warm, deep, and rich on all tracks, with no coloration."

Wharfedale Diamond 10.7 Floorstanding speakers, 2x6.5" - £799/pr ($1300/pr Retail) -

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-15494-w...eakers-pr.aspx

Hard to beat at $800/pr.

Steve/bluewizard

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post #20 of 29 Old Yesterday, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow the RTi12 are huge speakers! Too big for this setting.
Was able to take some measurements tonight as well as a picture I'll post so you have a visual with what you've been helping on. Less space than I originally thought. 20 inches on one side and 11 inches on the other which could be leveled out a bit but the couch does not line straight up with the TV, it's to the right. Depth is 20 inches. I am worried about the depth of the speakers too. With rear porting I assume I need to have 6 to 12 inches from the wall. Is this a true worry in rear ported speakers? Some of my first thoughts are just too big of speakers. The entertainment center has a middle brace bracket which causes the trouble for the center. At 7 1/2 inches depth it would be all the way to the edge. Let me know if you think there is a way to sneak a SUB into this picture. I apologize if I wasted some of your time by not providing the dimensions of the space available earlier. I think it's a safer bet to lean towards the high-gloss piano black speaker if I can find a fit. The Emptek's would be great if I could fit a sub in there.. Too many wood to match and I feel it's never going to look right for them. Willing to increase budget to a $1,000 a pair if it makes a difference? Not sure if the rear porting thing and proximity to the wall is something I really need to watch? I know I'm new here and hope I'm not overstepping with my multiple questions and ramblings
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post #21 of 29 Old Yesterday, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Stereophile Review - Wharfedale Diamond 10.7 Floorstanding speakers -

Steve/bluewizard
Nice article, good read. They look like Quality speakers, not quite a wow factor with design but well-made
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Wow the RTi12 are huge speakers! Too big for this setting.
Was able to take some measurements tonight as well as a picture I'll post so you have a visual with what you've been helping on. Less space than I originally thought. 20 inches on one side and 11 inches on the other which could be leveled out a bit but the couch does not line straight up with the TV, it's to the right. Depth is 20 inches. I am worried about the depth of the speakers too. With rear porting I assume I need to have 6 to 12 inches from the wall. Is this a true worry in rear ported speakers? Some of my first thoughts are just too big of speakers. The entertainment center has a middle brace bracket which causes the trouble for the center. At 7 1/2 inches depth it would be all the way to the edge. Let me know if you think there is a way to sneak a SUB into this picture. I apologize if I wasted some of your time by not providing the dimensions of the space available earlier. I think it's a safer bet to lean towards the high-gloss piano black speaker if I can find a fit. The Emptek's would be great if I could fit a sub in there.. Too many wood to match and I feel it's never going to look right for them. Willing to increase budget to a $1,000 a pair if it makes a difference? Not sure if the rear porting thing and proximity to the wall is something I really need to watch? I know I'm new here and hope I'm not overstepping with my multiple questions and ramblings
Yeah you really do need at least 12" behind most ported speakers for them to start really opening up and not get boomy especially if running full-range instead of set on "small" ... 18-24" is optimal in my experience.

You might want to consider NHT's sealed designs if you really need your speakers to go so close to the rear wall, they offer free return shipping like SVS so it's a no risk trial period.

http://www.nhthifi.com/Absolute-Towe...&category=3773
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Nice article, good read. They look like Quality speakers, not quite a wow factor with design but well-made

The photos of the Diamond speakers in Cherry, are way too orange. They saturated the colors, lighten the photos, and expand the contrast simply so you have something to see.

But I have the Wharfedale Diamond 9.6 (2x8") in Cherry. They are a nice medium brown with just the faintest hint of Red. The Rosewood, which I think look beautiful, are Darker with a stronger hint of red and a very wide grain.

Since the Diamond 10.7 are on close-out, they are no longer available in Walnut.

These are about $50 over you stated budget, but they are about $400 below the standard selling price. Again, a fantastic bargain.

The Diamond Series have been Wharfedale's most popular and affordable speakers dating back to the 1980's. The history of the company itself dates back to 1932.

Steve/bluewizard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ekkaiden@att.net View Post
Wow the RTi12 are huge speakers! Too big for this setting.

Was able to take some measurements tonight as well as a picture I'll post so you have a visual with what you've been helping on. Less space than I originally thought. 20 inches on one side and 11 inches on the other which could be leveled out a bit but the couch does not line straight up with the TV, it's to the right. Depth is 20 inches.....


In that situation, I would move the Cabinet forward a bit and shift it to the Left relative to the photo.

Then on each side place a speaker on each side moved forward roughly even with the front of the fireplace mantel.

The Diamonds don't need a huge amount of room. I move my speaker even with the front of the Equipment cabinet, and that give them 10" to 12" behind.

People tend to say OMG, I can't have my speakers sticking that far into my room! But, your Fireplace protrudes 20" into your room, you don't seem to mind that.

That situation does cause some limitations as any room with a Fireplace does, but nothing that you can't overcome.

Very balance and neutral speakers will do better somewhat close to the wall than a bass heavy speakers. I had some JBL Stadium speakers (2x8") that we not happy with 24" behind them. I eventually had to sell them on an bought my Wharfedale in their place.

Steve/bluewizard
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Just out of curiosity, I wonder if they'd have room for our not be offended by a cylinder sub, it would open up the speaker choice a lot.

Also, do you think this look would be out of the question?



Those are a part of the DefTech Mythos line, those are Mythos One's, they'd have to be bought used, but you can usually find them for between $700-900 pr. (The speaker body is only 6" wide)
But anything from that line will have a similar look and the associated centers are only about 6" high and 5" deep.

*Warning* None of my suggestions, ideas or even thoughts have any WAF, in any way!
My Build Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-gen...formation.html

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Yeah you really do need at least 12"
http://www.nhthifi.com/Absolute-Towe...&category=3773
Yeah the speakers are getting a ton of good reviews. I got to be completely honest though, I think they're ugly as hell. Eye of the beholder and all. Thanks for confirming the space needed from the wall
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post #27 of 29 Unread Today, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post

In that situation, I would move the Cabinet forward a bit and shift it to the Left relative to the photo.
Steve/bluewizard
Agreed, I could pull that cabinet out and give another 6-7 inches. I would have about 27 inches from the wall and enough to leave at least a foot for a good speaker from the wall
I have been giving them another look and they are good looking cabinet. Not as solid as the HTD's or are RBH's but nice. I like them better with their grill on. The black seems plain but the Rosewood does look eye-catching. They're in the finalist list
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post #28 of 29 Unread Today, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Just out of curiosity, I wonder if they'd have room for our not be offended by a cylinder sub, it would open up the speaker choice a lot.
Great suggestions but I'm concerned about the used thing. Wouldn't want there to be a mark that bugs the hell out of him. He's A bit of a perfectionist, LOL I guess I can be too. Found them new but out of the budget.

Interesting idea with the cylinder sub. I didn't even know they made those and have never heard one. With a small enough speaker in those they could fit side-by-side on the left.
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post #29 of 29 Unread Today, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Not sure if I'm following forum protocol because I see I'm back to back posting with "replies" but I want to make sure everyone's aware how appreciative I am for the help. I have some good speakers on the finalist list. If can find a nice small sub to fit the options are grand.
Any one have any hands-on experience with those cylinder subs and have a $500 or less version recommendation?
Still willing to budget $1000 for the towers or less.

Off subject but when I was in Ovation they had some floorstanding's called Vienna acoustics. I swear he had a sub with it but no they were pushing out base, small, sleek and a stellar cabinet. But of course 2K apiece. Way too much for me. That might be kind of the norm in that price range but these things were impressive to my basic ears!
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