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Replace B&W 802D with?

3K views 49 replies 18 participants last post by  Swolephile 
#1 ·
Hey guys I need some help, I'm thinking of replacing my 802D, including an HTM1D center. The reason is that I don't ever listen to music down there (basement theater) and want to concentrate just on ht. Is there a speaker out there that would be let's say 80% as good for ht as what I have now but for alot less money? I would like to stay in the 4-5k range for the front three speakers. I have read some really good stuff on here about JTR 228/212, also what about Klipsch RF-7ii with the 64 center? Any thoughts and recommendations about this will be greatly appreciated!
 
#3 ·
The B&W are great, but I don't use them very much anymore and quite frankly when I think of the $$$ I spent on those speakers i can't help thinking that they are going to waste, so why not sell them and get something close in performance for less money, might not be possible, that's why I asked here!
 
#4 · (Edited)
I think you might be happier with the JBL Pro 4722/4722N.
That is one of the world wide standards for cinema sound, better than JTR IMO.

No idea what it costs though...

I went DIY and upgraded from 3 N803's to custom DIYSoundGroup SEOS's. They cost about $700 per, and with amplification and DSP around $2100 per.
100db/watt, 4hz to 18khz +-3db. Tri 4ohm 3-way. 4000watts burst, 2000watts RMS.

Hard to ignore for $700...


The only problem with the 802D is that it won't get loud.
Other than that, you won't find it's level of musical transparency with cinema speakers, but you can get 97% of the sound for $700 per vs $5-8grand per.
 
#5 ·
I think you're on the right track with JTR or JBL pro as BassThatHz mentioned. Some up and comers to look at are reaction audio and powersound audio which both make high efficiency speakers. Reaction audio in particular has a coaxial design with a beryllium diaphragm.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Pro speakers are meant to fill big rooms, which theaters usually are, heck even at home, the 2nd row at be 17-20ft away.

You lose 25db in the first 9ft from the inverse square law. Making even 100db/watt into 75db/watt at the first row. Meaning you still need a good amount of wattage to get to 105dbA THX treble.
Try to get THX in the 2nd or 3rd row, FORGET ABOUT IT!!!

A normal speaker is 90db/watt and at 9ft it takes a LOT of power.
WAY BEYOND a reciever to just get to THX, and by that time all the drivers are melting from the heat of the power (especially the tweeter).





Pro speakers go up to 115db/watt, however I'd advice against going above 105db/watt at home because it will start to amplify the noisefloor of your amp and you'll get hiss if it isn't ultra-quiet.
Now chances are you already have good electronics, so that might be a moot point for you.

You don't really want to go less than 100db/watt, that is about the minimum.

Subwoofers are another issue, the only subs that are 100db/watt are pro woofers, and/or pro woofers loaded into horn boxes, which are only good to 30hz.
Which is actually fine because below 40hz the higher displacement and xmax sub will win. Such as an SI HST-18, that's a good 18 without breaking the bank.
Don't bother aiming for less than 15hz, it gets too big and too expensive (like 16 18's and 30kW isn't uncommon for any hope aiming at 5-15hz.)
 

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#33 · (Edited)
I'm sorry but the above is mostly nonsense.

1. First, you've dropped in 3dbs of "headroom", needlessly calling for a doubling of amplifier output for a given spl. "Headroom" is "speaker-speak" for "unused output power" that sounds great in the forum but has zero effect on an amplifier operating within it's design-capacity.

So then, cut those "required" wattage figures in half right from the jump.

Onward...

2. 105 dbs represent DYNAMIC peaks, not sustained output (which by the way is incredibly, ridiculously, LOUD to 98% of the populace, "distorted" or perfectly replicated). Any properly designed, modern solid-state amplifier can provide 2-3dbs of additional short-term output, so you can basically halve the last figure, again.

The requirement of doubling power for a 3db increase in output, as well as a 6db output decrease for the doubling of distance is sound, verifiable science and doesn't bend to "new" opinions or the 135db AVS DIY crowd.

A few hundred watts of dynamic power will take a well-built 90db sens speaker right near the holy grail figure (lmao) of 105dbs at 9 feet and make the balance of output (read: at LEAST 95%) between 50 and 90dbs the proverbial cake-walk, of course.

And I've heard the B&W 802D's...they will get EXTREMELY LOUD and have fantastic dynamics. Yes, even at 9 feet. Again, maybe not for the 135db club that will tell you nothing "non pro or diy will, under $xx,xxx", but loud and clean enough to fill a room and have most people asking you to turn it DOWN...and not because it's distorted.

By the way...this comes from a guy with ELEVEN "pro" speakers in his living room. They are not for everyone and certainly not for many/most living spaces for a number of sonic (never mind practical and aesthetic) reasons.



James
 
#8 ·
OP: Can you describe your room (including dimensions, seating locations, and any room treatments)? Any special requirements like aesthetics? Do you have a subwoofer (or more than one)? What are the other components in your system? Are you interested in the DIY route?

You can check an online SPL calculator to get a ballpark figure for how much power you need in your situation: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Seating distance and desired SPL plays into the "won't get loud" argument. My system will technically reach reference levels but in practice I listen well below (like 30+ dB below) that level, and have a relatively small room, so I get by even with very inefficient speakers. Others have larger rooms and like it loud so your preferences does enter into it.

I think a lot more info about your room, system, and goals (sonic and otherwise) is needed to make any sort of reasonable recommendation.
 
#11 ·
Don, my theater is in my basement and is approximately 20x30x8 and is basically just a walled off area with a bathroom and laundry room and a weight room down there also. The mlp is about 16' from the screen and I have a second row at about 22'. I have four diy subs with 18's(Dayton's) powered with a Cerwin Vega 5000, I also have a fair amount of room treatment including first reflection points on the side and ceiling, diffusion on the back wall and floor to ceiling bass traps/chunks in the corners. I have an Onkyo 5508 with a pro kit and all speakers are run with Emotiva XPA-1.

As far as spl goes, it will get very loud but quite frankly I would like more, I've already fried the tweeter once on the HTM1D. As I mentioned I did four diy subs and would love to go that route if possible but slapping together a box and putting drivers in it is one thing, setting up the crossover is another and may be more technical than I'm comfortable with. Thanks for the help!
 
#17 ·
Understood- for me, it's in my primary room. Even if I had a place that could have a dedicated room I would never have one. I prefer the comfort and warmth if you will of a living room. When friends are over and even if just me there is always a Bluray concert on for entertainment. I certainly get the use out of mine.

If I had a dedicated room no one would be down there. My friends would need to be near the ice maker and my bar cabinet :) Maybe me too. Just not a dedicated room kind of guy.

But you might also add to your list KEF R Series and Dynaudio Focus.

Rick
 
#19 ·
Dynaudio- probably not unless you have a local dealer who will let you borrow them.

KEF Direct, yes but there is a 15% restock fee if not happy. You have 30 days to try. Check the returns tab at bottom of page. Not too bad really to try out the package. Maybe front three and not worry about rears. I have the Reference Series. Very happy but you might look into the R series right below it.

https://www.kefdirect.com/

Rick
 
#24 ·
I like the GE. I have the Triton 1 with powered sub.

The T5 and T7 are amazing bang for the buck. You see I know a guy in the biz.

However a good point was made. What is your net cost?

To keep the math simple say you spent $1000 and sell them for $600 then spent $300 for a replacement you only saved $300. That is if you sell high and buy low which is tough in this hobby.

Shoot me a PM maybe I can help.
 
#35 ·
I appreciate everyone's input but with all of the different choices being thrown out there, this is quickly becoming more confusing, I'll keep reading the forums and at some point I may end up being able to make a decision on which speakers to try out, or not!

Thanks.
 
#40 ·
OP, what you have now is great sound. If you replace with most of the recommendations here, you'll have bad sound. My advice would be to keep what you have and spend the money on other new toys. How about some new Apple products? Or 4K Blu-ray players? How about the BB8 from Star Wars by Sphero? Or maybe splurge at a good restaurant :) But whatever you do, don't listen to any replacement suggestions here!
 
#41 · (Edited)
You'll have bad sound. Don't listen to any replacement suggestions here!
Let me ask an open question to everyone reading this thread, for all those whom have gone from HiFi speakers to Pro speakers for your home theater...
Did you regret/hate it with movies?

I'm thinking that number is very low, so we might not hear too many negative responses.

You'll have bad sound. Don't listen to any replacement suggestions here!
I own B&W 8 series and DIY horned speakers, and have compared them side by side.
I think you are underestimating the quality of some good pro speakers a "tiny" bit.
I'm 90% music, 10% movies (but when I do either, it is taken seriously...)


For some good horns, properly driven, the difference is less than 5% SQ. (Some times the B&W win, and some times the DIY wins, it varies from song to song.)
For movies, I've never heard a difference (other than the fact than my B&W's were quiet and distorting, and the DIY horns aren't ever distorted and can go louder, if desired.)

My B&W's could never handle this movies intro, but my DIY's can. There is lots of bass encoded on center channel tracks of movies; but without a bass center to handle it you'd never know it... The OP's center is big enough that he probably understands the difference between a big and small center. ;)





 
#43 ·
Some people have had bad experiences with pro speakers, from the monkeys at the helm of rock concerts, bars, and city theaters where they have cranked the speakers until they sizzle, fart and burp muddy noise in a 200,000cuft space.

In a 1000-20,000cuft home theater, and played within the operating-limits of the speakers and amps, you won't get any of that distortion as per above.

The same is true for any system if abused beyond it's limits.
 
#48 ·
I've built several of the kits on diysoundgroup and have found them to sound amazing for the price. I've built the fusion 8, the volt 8, and the 1099. I've compared them against my bowers and Wilkins 683 and have found they actually sound a lot better for movies. They have a much bigger sound to them, more dynamic and more clearer. It gives a theater sound to my theater. Now, I agree that the B&Ws are great for music, but at this point I would always take the DIY route for a theater. And for the size of your theater, and the price range your looking at, I would say the 1899 could be pretty epic, especially when paired with 4 Dayton subs. (I've got a DIY ultimax myself)


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