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post #1 of 84 Old 01-03-2016, 02:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Replacing fronts/rears and considering all in-ceiling.

I've been reading and researching for days and stressing myself out over a living room remodel and new speaker purchase that I can't make a decison on.

Current 5.1 Setup:
Receiver - Sony STR-DN1060 (keeping)
Center - Mythos 7 (keeping)
Subwoofer - BIC F12 (keeping)
Fronts - Bose 301 on stands (getting rid of)
Rears - Bose 201 wall mounted (getting rid of)

I'm fairly happy with my current setup, but the old Bose speakers need to go. I'm positive that I will be going with in-ceiling rear/surround speakers and will wire the room for 7.1, but will stay with 5.1 for now. I can accommodate floor standing speakers for my fronts, but would really like to clean up the room and go with an all in-ceiling setup. If I go with floor standing fronts, I'd like something low profile with a small footprint like the Definitive Technology BP line (<6" wide cabinet); the BP-8040ST ($550ea) is what I'd really like, but the BP-8020ST ($400ea) is more in my price range. I love my F12 subwoofer, but feel it slightly lacks mid range bass, so I believe the powered subwoofers in the BP-8020ST or BP-8040ST would fill that void. If I go with an all in-ceiling setup, I'll probably add a second, smaller, sub to fill the mid bass range.

What I have proposed in my head at the moment is: Keep the Mythos 7 and F12 in place, but replace the front and rear speakers with in-ceiling speakers. If I decide I can't live with this setup, I'll add the Definitive Technology BP floor standing speakers, or something similar, and use the in-ceiling fronts in a quasi-Atmos setup with my next receiver upgrade (STR-DN1060 = no Atmos support).

In regard to in-ceiling speakers: They need to be round, depth isn't an issue, and I don't want to pay more than $1000 for four of them (2 front and 2 rear). So far, I've looked at the Paradigm H65-A and Polk 900-LS for fronts. I've also listened to a friends setup who has all BIC Formula speakers: BIC FH6-LCR for LCR, BIC F12 sub, and BIC FH6-C in-ceiling rears with a similar room and receiver (Sony STR-DN850). I like the sound of his setup and the feel the FH6-C do a good job as rears, so I'm considering those, but I figured I'd probably choose a non-angled version of whatever front in-ceiling speakers I choose to keep things similar.

Any opinions on the Paradigm H65-A or Polk 900-LS or any other angled front in-ceiling speaker? Also, any recommendations for in-ceiling surround speakers?
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post #2 of 84 Old 01-03-2016, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bajafx4 View Post
I've been reading and researching for days and stressing myself out over a living room remodel and new speaker purchase that I can't make a decison on.

Current 5.1 Setup:
Receiver - Sony STR-DN1060 (keeping)
Center - Mythos 7 (keeping)
Subwoofer - BIC F12 (keeping)
Fronts - Bose 301 on stands (getting rid of)
Rears - Bose 201 wall mounted (getting rid of)

I'm fairly happy with my current setup, but the old Bose speakers need to go. I'm positive that I will be going with in-ceiling rear/surround speakers and will wire the room for 7.1, but will stay with 5.1 for now. I can accommodate floor standing speakers for my fronts, but would really like to clean up the room and go with an all in-ceiling setup. If I go with floor standing fronts, I'd like something low profile with a small footprint like the Definitive Technology BP line (<6" wide cabinet); the BP-8040ST ($550ea) is what I'd really like, but the BP-8020ST ($400ea) is more in my price range. I love my F12 subwoofer, but feel it slightly lacks mid range bass, so I believe the powered subwoofers in the BP-8020ST or BP-8040ST would fill that void. If I go with an all in-ceiling setup, I'll probably add a second, smaller, sub to fill the mid bass range.

What I have proposed in my head at the moment is: Keep the Mythos 7 and F12 in place, but replace the front and rear speakers with in-ceiling speakers. If I decide I can't live with this setup, I'll add the Definitive Technology BP floor standing speakers, or something similar, and use the in-ceiling fronts in a quasi-Atmos setup with my next receiver upgrade (STR-DN1060 = no Atmos support).

In regard to in-ceiling speakers: They need to be round, depth isn't an issue, and I don't want to pay more than $1000 for four of them (2 front and 2 rear). So far, I've looked at the Paradigm H65-A and Polk 900-LS for fronts. I've also listened to a friends setup who has all BIC Formula speakers: BIC FH6-LCR for LCR, BIC F12 sub, and BIC FH6-C in-ceiling rears with a similar room and receiver (Sony STR-DN850). I like the sound of his setup and the feel the FH6-C do a good job as rears, so I'm considering those, but I figured I'd probably choose a non-angled version of whatever front in-ceiling speakers I choose to keep things similar.

Any opinions on the Paradigm H65-A or Polk 900-LS or any other angled front in-ceiling speaker? Also, any recommendations for in-ceiling surround speakers?
I used ceiling surround speakers for about ten years (7.1) and could not hear them. They were too far away from my ears. I recently moved the surrounds down to the floor at ear level about three feet from my head - side and rear. I am using the ceiling speakers as heights for Dolby Atmos now (7.2.4).

I understand that ceiling speakers make for a cleaner install which is why I used them in the beginning, but they do not make for good listening.

7.4.4 system with Denon 5200 (Height 1, Height 2), Emotiva XPA-5 (front, center), NAD 275 (front, middle Surround), NAD 275 (Rear Surround), All Klipsch speakers: Cornwall (front), 2 Heresy (center), 2-kg-1.5 (front surround), 2-kg-1.5 (middle surround), 2 RS-7 (rear surround), 4 KSW 15 (sub), 2 SA-2 height-1, 2 SA-2 height-2, Oppo 103, Mac Mini (network), Apple TV (DNLA), Roku 4, 3TB My Book (DNLA), Dell PC (Network), Vizio UM-P702uiB3, Logitech Harmony Companion, X-box one s

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post #3 of 84 Old 01-03-2016, 02:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for sharing your experience. My room won't allow for anything else other than ceiling speakers for the surrounds... well at least not the left rear. There's no wall where the left rear needs to be, so I currently have it mounted on the closest wall that's on the other side of my dining room ~20 ft. away... more than 2x as far as any other speaker in the setup.

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post #4 of 84 Old 01-03-2016, 03:27 AM
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GoldenEar Invisa Series?

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Originally Posted by bajafx4 View Post

In regard to in-ceiling speakers: They need to be round, depth isn't an issue, and I don't want to pay more than $1000 for four of them (2 front and 2 rear). So far, I've looked at the Paradigm H65-A and Polk 900-LS for fronts. I've also listened to a friends setup who has all BIC Formula speakers: BIC FH6-LCR for LCR, BIC F12 sub, and BIC FH6-C in-ceiling rears with a similar room and receiver (Sony STR-DN850). I like the sound of his setup and the feel the FH6-C do a good job as rears, so I'm considering those, but I figured I'd probably choose a non-angled version of whatever front in-ceiling speakers I choose to keep things similar.

Any opinions on the Paradigm H65-A or Polk 900-LS or any other angled front in-ceiling speaker? Also, any recommendations for in-ceiling surround speakers?
Two GoldenEar Invisa HTR 7000 in-ceiling front speakers ($499.99 each) and two Invisa 525 in-ceiling surround speakers ($249.99 each) would sound phenomenal I'm guessing, based upon critics' reviews. (I've not actually heard any GoldenEar in-ceiling systems, however, so I cannot personally testify on their behalf.) The downside of course is that the ~$1,500 total, um, somewhat exceeds your budget.

Maybe buy the fronts now and save up for the rears? (Keep using the 201s a little longer?)
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post #5 of 84 Old 01-03-2016, 07:16 AM
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I am not fond of in ceiling speakers for LCRs. They work in few instances and that is where the TV is placed high on the wall like over a fireplace or with a projection screen in a non-dedicated room. Otherwise the sound does not seem like it is coming from the screen and more from above. I understand the desire to cleanup the room and not use towers or bookshelf speakers on stands, that is pretty common request by people. Before you go to in ceiling speakers have you considered other solutions like on wall, in wall or even an LCR sound bar. Most of them I consider better alternatives to in ceiling speakers when free standing speakers are not an option. In ceilings are fine for the surrounds. While the BIC sub is nice for the price I wouldn't try to supplement it with mains that go lower, you would be better off getting a better sub. The reality of acoustics and bass in small rooms is that the best spot for bass is not going to be the best spot for mids and highs. Using full range speakers or speakers with subs is not a good solution for most situations.


A good rule of acoustics and speakers is they sound better when they aim at you. Just like you don't turn to the side when talking to someone. In ceiling speakers in general aim down and not towards the listener. This causes more reflected than direct sound to be heard and causes poor dialogue intelligibility. You will have to raise the volume to hear the dialogue and turn it down at other times when it is too loud. With in ceiling speakers and an 8' ceiling you need to be in the good off axis sound of the speaker. For an 8' ceiling and a 30 degree speaker you want your seating to be less than 10 feet away. If your ceiling is taller or the speaker angles more than you can be a little further back. While a taller ceiling works for angles and direct sound it is also more likely to give you the sound from above effect.


I have used the Paradigm and its 30 degree angle I would consider a minimum for this type of application. The Paradigm is a very good speaker but no matter how good a speaker, if it is does not work for a given situation then it is not the right speaker. A LOT of speaker companies (Polk included) like to market their speakers that angle about 15 degrees as LCRs and I'm sorry but the BS flag should be thrown on the field for that one. I don't know how much the Golden Ear angles but if they won't tell you run away. The only other round speakers I know that angle about 30 degrees are the JBL LS360C and its sister speaker the Revel C763L. There are others that angle up to 45 degrees but none of them are round, they are rectangular or square. Again, I would consider other solutions before in ceiling LCRs.
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post #6 of 84 Old 01-03-2016, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pianoman88 View Post
Two GoldenEar Invisa HTR 7000 in-ceiling front speakers ($499.99 each) and two Invisa 525 in-ceiling surround speakers ($249.99 each) would sound phenomenal I'm guessing, based upon critics' reviews. (I've not actually heard any GoldenEar in-ceiling systems, however, so I cannot personally testify on their behalf.) The downside of course is that the ~$1,500 total, um, somewhat exceeds your budget.

Maybe buy the fronts now and save up for the rears? (Keep using the 201s a little longer?)
Ditto, at this time the GoldenEar Invisa have the reputation of being the best solution for in-ceiling that sound the least like in-ceiling. Plus if you decide you like the sound (try any audition them) you can easily match any of their Fronts, whether it be floor standing, bookshelf or in-ceiling, with what you need to do with your surrounds.

*Warning* None of my suggestions, ideas or even thoughts have any WAF, in any way!
My Build Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-gen...formation.html
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post #7 of 84 Old 01-03-2016, 08:59 AM
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In a previous HT setup, I used RBH MC-615L for my surrounds, and thought they did a nice job. They weren't quite on par with my old Paradigm di-poles, but were better than I hoped for. I used RBH in-walls for fronts, and thought that for cinema, they did as good a job as previous bookshelf and centre channels I owned. I plan to replicate the in-wall/in-ceiling set-up (though not necessarily with RBH) for the new family room currently under construction in our basement. Any option for you to go with in-walls for fronts versus in-ceilings? Especially for movies/tv, I really favour in-walls for their immersive "feel" over in-ceilings.
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post #8 of 84 Old 01-03-2016, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pianoman88
Two GoldenEar Invisa HTR 7000 in-ceiling front speakers ($499.99 each) and two Invisa 525 in-ceiling surround speakers ($249.99 each) would sound phenomenal...
Thanks. I'll check out the GoldenEar speakers. $1500 doesn't really blow the budget, it just blows the budget for what I had planned on spending on in-ceiling speakers for the fronts. I'm willing to spend ~$500 each for floor standing speakers, but didn't want to go that high for in-ceiling speakers because I thought I may be paying for "smoke and mirrors" marketing. If they're that good, I'm willing to spend on them; I just don't like spending 2x as much on something that is only slightly better than what may cost half as much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellebob
I am not fond of in ceiling speakers for LCRs. They work in few instances and that is where the TV is placed high on the wall like over a fireplace...
I should have mentioned that my TV is above a fireplace and the fireplace is on a 45º in the corner of the room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellebob
Before you go to in ceiling speakers have you considered other solutions like on wall, in wall or even an LCR sound bar.
On wall speakers aren't an option on any of my exterior walls and that's where my fronts need to be. I don't wan't to go into too much detail, but my house is not conventionally built with studded walls... essentially my walls should be regarded as solid wood in regard to adding wires after the original construction. A LCR sound bar could work, but my fireplace is natural stone from floor to ceiling and speaker depth is an issue for me which is why I chose the shallow Mythos 7 to rest on my mantle. I have ~70" of width and 7" of depth to work with on the mantle.
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post #9 of 84 Old 01-03-2016, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. I'll check out the GoldenEar speakers. $1500 doesn't really blow the budget, it just blows the budget for what I had planned on spending on in-ceiling speakers for the fronts. I'm willing to spend ~$500 each for floor standing speakers, but didn't want to go that high for in-ceiling speakers because I thought I may be paying for "smoke and mirrors" marketing. If they're that good, I'm willing to spend on them; I just don't like spending 2x as much on something that is only slightly better than what may cost half as much.
Yeah, I quoted myself after looking at the GoldenEar Invisa HTR 7000 speaker. It does look like a very good quality speaker and it had better with a $500 price tag for a ceiling speaker with no enclosure. The Paradigm H65-A also receives good reviews and is only $250. Are a pair of GoldenEars worth an extra $500? I know that's ultimately for me to decide, but are the GoldenEars 2x as good as the Paradigms?

Also, the angle on the GoldenEar looks pretty high, ~30º, but I don't see it listed in any of their specs.

Also #2 , for ceiling rear speakers, would it be beneficial to have those angled as well?

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post #10 of 84 Old 01-03-2016, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Narrowing down to these four in-ceiling mains, but still open to suggestions:

1) Paradigm CI PRO P80-A - $400 each
2) Paradigm CI Home H65-A - $330 each
3) Revel C763L - Typically $550, but found for $400 each
4) GoldenEar Invisa HTR 7000 - $500 each

I'll admit that the Paradigm H65-A is more my price point and would like to stay at or under $400, but if something is really going to be that great of an improvement over the others I'm willing to go as high as $500. Keep in mind these mains will be paired with a DT Mythos 7 center.

The Polk 900-LS is a pretty interesting speaker too. Is this one too gimmicky and should not be considered?

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post #11 of 84 Old 01-03-2016, 01:34 PM
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If you are in the area of safe and sound you are not too far from where I work. I know we have the CI Pro 80-A in stock if you want to try a pair. PM if you are close to that area. I forgot you were using the Mythos as a center. I would go with an LCR speaker bar or use 3 in ceiling speakers for LCR. You would not only be mismatching brands and models, it is a mismatch in height as well. I think a larger speaker bar would be a good choice. Many companies will make custom sizes which could give a nice look.


The Polk does not angle to aim towards the listener for an LCR. They made a bigger enclosure to get more bass. If you take two identical drivers and put one in a bigger box you will get more bass. I'm not surprises as I will paraphrase a quote from Matt Polk, "Half the world is looking for Jesus and the other half wants more bass"
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post #12 of 84 Old 01-03-2016, 08:34 PM
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You might also consider one of these:

http://www.goldenear.com/products/supercinema3d

Well reviewed, and would allow you to get the "fronts" closer to ear level, which would be a huge positive.
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post #13 of 84 Old 01-03-2016, 11:36 PM - Thread Starter
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You might also consider one of these:

http://www.goldenear.com/products/supercinema3d

Well reviewed, and would allow you to get the "fronts" closer to ear level, which would be a huge positive.
Interesting! The XL is 62-1/8" wide. I measured the width of the recessed area above my mantle where the TV is and it's 66", so it'd fit in there. You guys think something like this would be superior to in-ceiling LCR speakers or in-ceiling LR w/ an actual center speaker? If I went this route, what rear ceiling speakers would I pair with it?

Also, I know it wouldn't be a true Atmos setup because my rears will be in the ceiling, but could I add two forward height speakers in the ceiling to make a quasi 5.1.2 setup or would this really not be worth the effort since my front speakers are already ~4' above the floor?
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post #14 of 84 Old 01-04-2016, 01:12 AM
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If it were me, I would go with the soundbar for the front 3 speakers. The rears are another issue, as the layout, the width and depth of the seating area come into play. If the area is relatively small, the cheaper Invisa (525) would be fine or you could choose to save some cash by going with a cheaper model from another manufacturer. If the seating is expansive and/or the speakers are going to be positioned wide of the seating area, then the more expensive Invisas would provide greater coverage. For the front heights (and Atmos, if you decide to go that way one day), I would use the HTR 7000, as the cheaper model would not provide the coverage at the greater distance.

In any case, I would probably wait on the height channels, as these speakers are reported to have a very large soundstage. You can always come back later and add them, if you feel it is necessary. These are not cheap speakers.
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post #15 of 84 Old 01-04-2016, 04:52 AM
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The speaker bar solution would be better.
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post #16 of 84 Old 01-04-2016, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by bajafx4 View Post
Interesting! The XL is 62-1/8" wide. I measured the width of the recessed area above my mantle where the TV is and it's 66", so it'd fit in there. You guys think something like this would be superior to in-ceiling LCR speakers or in-ceiling LR w/ an actual center speaker? If I went this route, what rear ceiling speakers would I pair with it?

Also, I know it wouldn't be a true Atmos setup because my rears will be in the ceiling, but could I add two forward height speakers in the ceiling to make a quasi 5.1.2 setup or would this really not be worth the effort since my front speakers are already ~4' above the floor?
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If it were me, I would go with the soundbar for the front 3 speakers. The rears are another issue, as the layout, the width and depth of the seating area come into play. If the area is relatively small, the cheaper Invisa (525) would be fine or you could choose to save some cash by going with a cheaper model from another manufacturer. If the seating is expansive and/or the speakers are going to be positioned wide of the seating area, then the more expensive Invisas would provide greater coverage. For the front heights (and Atmos, if you decide to go that way one day), I would use the HTR 7000, as the cheaper model would not provide the coverage at the greater distance.

In any case, I would probably wait on the height channels, as these speakers are reported to have a very large soundstage. You can always come back later and add them, if you feel it is necessary. These are not cheap speakers.
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The speaker bar solution would be better.
I agree that the XL soundbar might be the solution for your front LCR needs. It does incorporate some technical engineering wizardry to "audibly expand" the soundstage width, making it sound as if the L and R speakers are spread out much further away from the center than they actually are. It's quite an amazing illusion that is based upon solid psychoacoustic principles and could be very effective given your room layout.

If you instead went with two [or three] Invisa HTR 7000 in-ceiling speakers for your L-[C]-R, would you be able to mount them far enough apart for adequate stereo separation? I'm assuming the further you spread them, the further away from the TV/fireplace wall plane they would get due to the "corner" location of the TV/fireplace. That's not necessarily a deal breaker, but if as you spread them further apart they end up being located too close to the plane of the viewing audience, the stereo balance for someone seated in the "front row" and significantly left or right of the listening sweet spot could be overly compromised. Regarding cost, one XL soundbar would be pretty similar to three Invisa HTR 7000 in-ceiling speakers for LCR. Or to save some $$$, you could purchase two of the in-ceilings for LR and rely on a phantom C for now, then add a real C sometime down the road. Ultimately, with the 45-degree angle of your fireplace/TV, only you can decide what will work best in your unique situation.

Not sure what to say regarding "rear" surrounds other than you could possibly use the Invisa HTR 7000 in-ceilings there, since they are capable of sounding like they are not located in the ceiling. But at $500 a pop x 2, that might not be an option for you. Plus, I don't know if that same "not-in-the-ceiling" illusion would still occur if they're located behind the MLP instead of in front of it. But if it still did and you're going to go Atmos, it's one way you might be able to differentiate the "location" of the "rear" surrounds from that of the Atmos overheads. Then again...??? Methinks you're in uncharted territory!

Good luck!!!
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post #17 of 84 Old 01-04-2016, 08:17 AM
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I used ceiling surround speakers for about ten years (7.1) and could not hear them. They were too far away from my ears. I recently moved the surrounds down to the floor at ear level about three feet from my head - side and rear. I am using the ceiling speakers as heights for Dolby Atmos now (7.2.4).

I understand that ceiling speakers make for a cleaner install which is why I used them in the beginning, but they do not make for good listening.
This has been my experience as well at my dad and brother's house - they have professionally installed 7.1 systems and the rears are very faint.
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post #18 of 84 Old 01-04-2016, 08:21 AM
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This thread feels a bit like pandering to the 'wife' with speakers out of the way. Thankfully I've convinced (con'd) her into believing or seeing the value in how these rear-speakers also can be nice furniture pieces that she can set her nik-naks on, and or the keys, the house phone... and so on. Granted I haven't yet tried to switch to 7.1... If I did I might go for something more up and out of the way, and pander?! a bit. At the same time, I've yet to encounter a Blu-Ray that had any more than 5.1 on it. I've heard lots of rumors of Dolby Atmos and stuff but yet to really see the encoding in person.
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post #19 of 84 Old 01-04-2016, 08:21 AM
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Not sure if you've decided anything yet but I've been extremely happy with my Klipsch CDT-5800-C II for in ceiling speakers. Very crisps and clean sound from them. Both the woofer and tweeter can be aimed to your listening area. No issues at all hearing them either. They retail for $399 each but I bet you can get them for less from www.acousticsounddesign.com . They are an authorized Klipsch dealer.

Good luck.
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post #20 of 84 Old 01-04-2016, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by robertkjr3d View Post
At the same time, I've yet to encounter a Blu-Ray that had any more than 5.1 on it. I've heard lots of rumors of Dolby Atmos and stuff but yet to really see the encoding in person.
What? Most blu-rays I've seen have 7.1 on them. Also, Dolby Atmos is already out or planned on many blu-rays and here is the list. And another.

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post #21 of 84 Old 01-04-2016, 08:25 AM
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In terms of the InCeiling LCR's - for your price range, the InCeiling Mini/8 LCR @ $550 each...Triad makes some amazing InCeiling LCR's...I have installed quite a few of these, including a complete 7.2 InCeiling using their 12" InCeiling SubWoofers...and it sounds amazing. If setup properly (meaning placement and calibration), you should not have an issue with not being able to hear them, or it sounding like everything is coming from the ceiling.

http://www.triadspeakers.com/product.../ic-mini8-lcr/

The only thing is, they do not offer a round grill for these, but they do offer a frameless grill, and they will custom paint each grill from the factory to match any color for about $20.

If you need to have something round, then Martin Logan Vanquish are amazing, but they are quite pricey @ $1400 each. I have installed these in the past, and they do sound amazing, but for the price difference, you can't go wrong with the Triad. They offer several InCeiling Subwoofers, Surround speaker options, and have an upgraded InCeiling Bronze/4 LCR @ $650.00 each. Let me know if you need any additional information.
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post #22 of 84 Old 01-04-2016, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Nate Miller View Post
This has been my experience as well at my dad and brother's house - they have professionally installed 7.1 systems and the rears are very faint.
Yeah... A real a good movie played properly with 5.1 or better. The rear-channels have real bass and good sound coming out them. Even supposedly "good" theaters often fail in this department.
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post #23 of 84 Old 01-04-2016, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by caseyparsons View Post
I did not mean to hijack this post. I should say that some are actually 7.1. Your right there are more than I thought. I did have Annie, some how my version did not come up 7.1. And my Tron-Legacy is 7.1. oops.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Surround_7.1

Last edited by robertkjr3d; 01-04-2016 at 08:46 AM.
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post #24 of 84 Old 01-04-2016, 08:29 AM
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I am not fond of in ceiling speakers for LCRs. They work in few instances and that is where the TV is placed high on the wall like over a fireplace or with a projection screen in a non-dedicated room. Otherwise the sound does not seem like it is coming from the screen and more from above. I understand the desire to cleanup the room and not use towers or bookshelf speakers on stands, that is pretty common request by people. Before you go to in ceiling speakers have you considered other solutions like on wall, in wall or even an LCR sound bar. Most of them I consider better alternatives to in ceiling speakers when free standing speakers are not an option. In ceilings are fine for the surrounds. While the BIC sub is nice for the price I wouldn't try to supplement it with mains that go lower, you would be better off getting a better sub. The reality of acoustics and bass in small rooms is that the best spot for bass is not going to be the best spot for mids and highs. Using full range speakers or speakers with subs is not a good solution for most situations.


A good rule of acoustics and speakers is they sound better when they aim at you. Just like you don't turn to the side when talking to someone. In ceiling speakers in general aim down and not towards the listener. This causes more reflected than direct sound to be heard and causes poor dialogue intelligibility. You will have to raise the volume to hear the dialogue and turn it down at other times when it is too loud. With in ceiling speakers and an 8' ceiling you need to be in the good off axis sound of the speaker. For an 8' ceiling and a 30 degree speaker you want your seating to be less than 10 feet away. If your ceiling is taller or the speaker angles more than you can be a little further back. While a taller ceiling works for angles and direct sound it is also more likely to give you the sound from above effect.


I have used the Paradigm and its 30 degree angle I would consider a minimum for this type of application. The Paradigm is a very good speaker but no matter how good a speaker, if it is does not work for a given situation then it is not the right speaker. A LOT of speaker companies (Polk included) like to market their speakers that angle about 15 degrees as LCRs and I'm sorry but the BS flag should be thrown on the field for that one. I don't know how much the Golden Ear angles but if they won't tell you run away. The only other round speakers I know that angle about 30 degrees are the JBL LS360C and its sister speaker the Revel C763L. There are others that angle up to 45 degrees but none of them are round, they are rectangular or square. Again, I would consider other solutions before in ceiling LCRs.
Maybe check out the new Andrew Jones speakers at ELAC?

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ps - try before you buy, and always make sure you have a return option!
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post #25 of 84 Old 01-04-2016, 08:34 AM
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My vote for sound bar if you cant place some small bookshelves on stands for your left and right speakers and use a sub. Main thing is that the tweeters is pointing to where you are sitting. Ear Level is the best, but if that isn't the option, they at least need to be able to be aimed at your ears. So if you did go with ceiling, get some that has the drivers angled and not pointed straight down.
The rears are not as critical and you have a bit more flexibility with them since they mostly produce background sound effects.

FWIW, I have never read anyone that has experience ceiling speakers for the mains say they liked it. Only negative remarks.


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post #26 of 84 Old 01-04-2016, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by bajafx4 View Post
I've been reading and researching for days and stressing myself out over a living room remodel and new speaker purchase that I can't make a decison on.

Current 5.1 Setup:
Receiver - Sony STR-DN1060 (keeping)
Center - Mythos 7 (keeping)
Subwoofer - BIC F12 (keeping)
Fronts - Bose 301 on stands (getting rid of)
Rears - Bose 201 wall mounted (getting rid of)

I'm fairly happy with my current setup, but the old Bose speakers need to go. I'm positive that I will be going with in-ceiling rear/surround speakers and will wire the room for 7.1, but will stay with 5.1 for now. I can accommodate floor standing speakers for my fronts, but would really like to clean up the room and go with an all in-ceiling setup. If I go with floor standing fronts, I'd like something low profile with a small footprint like the Definitive Technology BP line (<6" wide cabinet); the BP-8040ST ($550ea) is what I'd really like, but the BP-8020ST ($400ea) is more in my price range. I love my F12 subwoofer, but feel it slightly lacks mid range bass, so I believe the powered subwoofers in the BP-8020ST or BP-8040ST would fill that void. If I go with an all in-ceiling setup, I'll probably add a second, smaller, sub to fill the mid bass range.

What I have proposed in my head at the moment is: Keep the Mythos 7 and F12 in place, but replace the front and rear speakers with in-ceiling speakers. If I decide I can't live with this setup, I'll add the Definitive Technology BP floor standing speakers, or something similar, and use the in-ceiling fronts in a quasi-Atmos setup with my next receiver upgrade (STR-DN1060 = no Atmos support).
Have you considered the KEF e305 series? In White these a blend in to a family room nicely and are at ear level.

KEF also make some nice in wall Ci speakers (up to THX rated) which you may be able to use instead.

I have 13 ft ceilings so there was no way I could go with ceiling speakers.
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post #27 of 84 Old 01-04-2016, 09:06 AM
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Speaking of ripping how can I rip something with an Atmos codec? Also if you need a clean look you can build your own and get better quality for a fraction. In-ceiling speakers have to me focused correctly and depending on the sounds needed the 12" Beyma Coaxials would be nice. if you are handy find a nice 6in" that doesn't need a lot of cubic feet and horn tweeter or even the vertical slotted Beyma ribbons or add something that is 2-3" offset on angles that hits it high and flat- place between ceilings focused on a position, if using 2 smaller drivers on the top end experiment with them firing in phase and out of phase.
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post #28 of 84 Old 01-04-2016, 09:16 AM
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also the majority of it is psycoacoutics. if you have a high end 3.1 system or even full range stereo set up right you can be enveloped in sound as well. I would post picks of my set up but I am waiting for CEDIA to roll out a bunch of speaker designs and equipment, automation, distribution, etc. the lcrs are 2 10s, 2 5.25s and a special tweeter with some cool mods no one has seen yet, 2 15" subs with a extended low frequency circuit, changed up the surrounds a bit to what I think fit the room best - atmos spec is 16 full range drivers in a duel line array and 4 custom coax speakers for more boom. all driven by monoblocks or amps with a few amps in it like the lcrs are tri amped but in one module. All fed from Benchmark adda converters until I can make something better. no DSP all analog circuits.
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post #29 of 84 Old 01-04-2016, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bajafx4 View Post
Thanks for sharing your experience. My room won't allow for anything else other than ceiling speakers for the surrounds... well at least not the left rear. There's no wall where the left rear needs to be, so I currently have it mounted on the closest wall that's on the other side of my dining room ~20 ft. away... more than 2x as far as any other speaker in the setup.
I have an open wall to the right, and was in a similar situation as yourself. I simply placed the SR & SL behind (aprox. 6') and wide of the MLP.
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post #30 of 84 Old 01-04-2016, 09:25 AM
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I have personally heard these as rears and throught the sounded great.

http://www.htd.com/Products/high-def...iling-speakers

Probably work fine as fronts too as good as any other in ceiling if you can handle the center channel mismatch.

I have also heard the monoprice angled in ceiling speakers as fronts and tears and they were fine too but it was not really a movie setting..

The big thing with in ceiling is to box them off if you can.
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