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post #181 of 364 Old 04-23-2003, 10:01 AM
 
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Nothing I've said is "crap". It's either the truth or logical and astute observation based on actual listening. If you, Boudoir would like to go to the "T6 vs B&W N802" thread, you can read an incisive, fair, blow by blow comparison of the two models in a thread dedicated to that. Or, you can e-mail me at my posted address and I'll give you a long list of technical and design errors in your Nautilus speakers and why they're not as accurate and well designed as 10-year old 3.3s.

If you like NHT 3.3s more than T6s which you seem not to have auditioned, that's fine. If you like B&W N802s more than T6s which you seem not to have auditioned, that's fine. But, if I try to help people here on the boards because I'm extremely knowledgeable about NHT speakers (the title of this thread), what's your problem with it? Your only advice seems to be "all new NHT is Chinese home theater crap" which helps nobody. Your bad experience with some sales guy and subsequent hatred of "sales hacks" is creating collateral damage for no reason. If you want to e-mail me and call me names, feel free. I'd be glad to "debate" you off list. In the meantime, if you insist on offering nothing but attacks, why not go hang with your B&W buddies in the B&W threads where you belong?
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post #182 of 364 Old 04-23-2003, 10:14 AM
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AMEN to that Brother Ashman!!! Well said. I agree that can't we all just get along. Well, we can. I've been trying to stay off this thread, because this boudoir fella seems to try to insult anyone who has anything positive to say about NHT Evolution speakers. I've been trying to refrain from sinking to his tactics, but it's hard, real hard not to light this cat up. And, I'll leave it at that.

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post #183 of 364 Old 04-23-2003, 11:00 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Ashman
.. But, if I try to help people here on the boards because I'm extremely knowledgeable about NHT speakers (the title of this thread), what's your problem with it?
The problem I have with you or manufacturers doing their own reviews is.. their lack of credibility!! Would it be great for a saleman or a manufacturer to be able to print his own review in a magazine such as Stereophile. One would read nothing but praise, of course, which is exactly what is happening here on this board on the internet:D
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post #184 of 364 Old 04-23-2003, 11:22 AM
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While I don't always(rarely) ever agree with John Ashman, I would tend to listen to his opinions when comparing two NHT speakers(even if one is currently being sold in his store, while another is discontinued). Where our opinions differ is when he compares NHT to B&W Nautilus...While he is free to have an opinion, it always seems to come down to numbers/measurements. My measuring instruments are my ears. Plain and simple.....and cheap. I just read a review today about the Evolution series...Very impressive review. Well deserved. In that same review they were comparing them to the Nautilus 801's, and they held their own...it was also said that they may have been 90% of the 801 if put on a scale(I'll take that extra 10%...but it comes at a cost). While I can't say anything bad about the Evolution series(other than looks), I can't really understand how anyone can rip on Nautilus 804's on up to the top of the Nautilus line.

There are plenty of g-r-e-a-t speakers that don't measure all that great that are extremely nice sounding speakers(not to say that B&W's measure poorly).

-Craig
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post #185 of 364 Old 04-23-2003, 11:28 AM
 
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In more constructive discourse, I did put in Deep Forest (tracks 6 and 8) for my traditional image test. I've been so happy with the imaging on the Evolutions that I never bothered to do this. Passed with flying colors. Track 6, in my room has never got to a full 90 degrees of center with the 3.3s, but did it easily with the T5s and T6s. I also noted more sound behind me. My smallish room has a lot of stuff in it with a ton of other speakers and furniture so this is a relative result. The T6s did just as well in a more hampered environment with more precision. Interestingly, the T5s made the processing sound more natural than I've heard it in the past sounding relatively smooth and seamless. The T6s were more brutally honest and you could hear digital artifacts from the processing and other, more subtle stuff. The sound did wrap in a perfect U-shape however and the only other speakers I've heard that provided this rendition were Meridians which have no crossover distortion. I'd say the Meridians did it marginally better, but the Evos are doing well on this exaggerated imaging test. Very airy and open with more height to the image.
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post #186 of 364 Old 04-23-2003, 12:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by boudoir
The problem I have with you or manufacturers doing their own reviews is.. their lack of credibility!! Would it be great for a saleman or a manufacturer to be able to print his own review in a magazine such as Stereophile. One would read nothing but praise, of course, which is exactly what is happening here on this board on the internet:D
People are free to take my opinions with a large grain of salt. Most sales people are not prone to look at the faults of their own products. I don't have that problem. Nothing is perfect. I think Evos could be more detailed and open than they are. However, the price for accomplishing this would be vast and fewer people could enjoy it. Like in college. I knew it took 5 times the effort to get an "A", so I shot for a "B", especially since I was working 40-60 hours/week. If NHT can proved "B" perfomance for 25-50% of a "A" peformance AND offer more dynamic range AND deeper bass AND better center/rear matching AND more flexibility AND more adjustability for less than ideal rooms, well, that's value.

Interestingly, I find the owners of many speakers to be FAR more biased than the people selling them. I don't say any brand is "the best" whereas many owners insist THEIR brand is "the best". Look at most of the posts about some of these brands. People just say "buy these, they're the best!" If I make such a post, I may say because "they're acoustic suspension" or because "they are accurate" or because "they blend well with a sub" or "they are designed with your situation in mind" and things like that in addition to sound quality. I


But I do stress value. And practical considerations like accuracy, sound IN the house rather than the showroom. I also want people to buy the right speaker for their needs, not under or over buy. I often tell people with money that all they need are T5s "but, if you want the T6s......." People hate the idea of objectivity is audio. That's fine. Craig will say I stress accuracy too much and whatever sounds good is right, even if it's inaccurate. I don't buy that. Accuracy IS important. It doesn't mean you won't prefer an inaccurate speaker, but it needs to be considered. Of course, most speaker companies dare not bring up the subject, especially Bose. But when you see a FR curve on a T5 vs a CDM-9NT and the T5s has approximately 1/3rd the FR error, it needs to be discussed, not ignored. Craig would also say that I talk about objective things to much as though I don't listen and have preferences. That's not true at all. But the difference is, I look at both. And here on a forum, where their are lots of "opinions" being tossed around, I try to back up suggestions with some objective advice and information so as not to be a "sales hack". Bottom line, if someone disagrees with me I can't win because I'm either "too objective" or "too biased".

One of the reasons I like poking holes in B&W's grand image is because their basic design principles aren't much more advanced than Paradigm or PSB or any of a number of very affordable speakers. AND, they chose to use drivers that are famous for their sonic problems and porting which creates problems and a variety of other issues. I can talk about sensible crossover design and cabinet design and some of these other design choices and it makes sense. Ask any designer and they'll tell you that speaker design is the art of compromise. And the art of choosing your brand of coloration. People tend to separate out midrange, bass and treble as the "three" ranges. B&W has VERY SKILLFULLY mastered the art of creating vibrant "present" sound/illusion in each of these three ranges. People talk about the "punchy bass", the "detailed midrange" and the "pristine highs". Listen to the T5s/T6s and, except for the bass being obviously deeper and more controlled than most anything you've heard, there's not much to point at. They're very integrated and none of the drivers have much of a signature that can be identified. They don't pound you with "detail", yet, you hear all the nuances. The treble is so smooth, it often seems like nothing is happening, yet, you listen to a cymbal and it sounds real. The imaging isn't mind-boggling, yet sound very natural. The bass is so controlled and precise it effortlessly purrs along with the music in a manner that makes it difficult to describe because typical "punchy, fast, dynamic, rhythmic" action words don't quite explain it. And then you see the FR curve and other measurements and it makes sense. Low coloration, low distortion, no major peaks or dips. A speaker that's not "doing something" for the music, but letting it stand or fall on its own. Are they perfect? Of course not. They essentially do everything at about 9/10s of what is possible to achieve and do nothing poorly. I much prefer that to a speaker that appears to be 10/10s in some things and 3/10s in other areas. I don't think anybody should pay close to $10K for a speaker that isn't 9/10s or better across the board. But they do. Their choice. I like balance. I'd rather have an Audi S6 than a Ferrari, because it's also going to get the groceries and go on family trips.

BTW, Craig, because I do believe my own BS, I spoke with John Leosco at great length about his review of the T6s that you cite because he said something to the effect of "there are 2 areas that some people claim the N801s don't do well and this is where the T6s are doing something very different". [note, he said "some people CLAIM"]. I gave him some insight as to why this might be so. I also, deadpan, asked him to consider that the N801 might be 90% of the T6 for only $7000 more. He said he's reviewing some other more expensive speakers with the N801s as a reference and would attempt to ascertain whether I had a point or not. I haven't read anything, but I suppose I should look to see what came of it.

So, in summation, I have to keep things as objective as I can and point to flaws with back up information as to why that would be the case. You can't just make a subjective comment about a product and not back it up, though most do. I believe I'm as even-handed as an NHT owner and seller could possibly be, but I always invite people to take note that I could easily be accused of bias and they can ferret from my comments whatever they feel is useful. I just try to advise people to listen deeper to speakers and don't go by first impressions. Many, if not most, speakers are designed to woo you from the first note. I believe NHTs simply don't do that, but believe they are a speaker you are far more likely to grow INTO rather than OUT OF. Sometimes the best attributes of a speaker are the ones you come to know, not the ones you immediatly notice. Hey, you think my wife married me for my tall, handsome looks?!?
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post #187 of 364 Old 04-23-2003, 12:15 PM
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Hello Craigdcan,

Where was the recent review of the Evolution comparing them to the Nautilus 801's? I'd love to read it!
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post #188 of 364 Old 04-23-2003, 01:58 PM
 
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post #189 of 364 Old 04-23-2003, 06:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Ashman


Interestingly, I find the owners of many speakers to be FAR more biased than the people selling them. I don't say any brand is "the best" whereas many owners insist THEIR brand is "the best".

How' that?? A salesman selling NHT will push NHT, not B&W selling accross the street at a competitor. If he'd do otherwise he'd be fired. Period. I have learn to do my homework, read a few unbiased reviews in a few high end audio magazines, listen to the equipment, and never listen to a salesman in a store -or on the net.

I have seen over and over again salespeople selling used equipment for demos when a store is not a dealer in that gear, selling blemished or seconds for first grade speakers, old production speakers gotten at a discount for last run with the upgraded tweeter, etc, etc. If I am biased it must be against dealers, not speakers.
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post #190 of 364 Old 04-23-2003, 07:18 PM
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WARNING...Danger...Danger....Persoanl attacks are not welcome. Account can and will be closed. Keep the posts in check please.

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DISCLAIMER: All spelling and grammatical errors done on purpose for the proofreadingly challenged...:)

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post #191 of 364 Old 04-23-2003, 07:40 PM
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I wasn't trying to cause problems I could and should have referred to as M5's and M6's. that is the part I was referring to in the T series. I would have assumed the 5's and 6's would have been a bout the same. but i have read a few post this past week that said the 5's were warm and the 6's were a little more forward. I down loaded the manual for the T6's and it said to start at a crossover of 50hz and work from their.
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post #192 of 364 Old 04-23-2003, 07:54 PM
 
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And yet, seemingly without having heard the new NHTs, you have spoken nothing but bad things about them. Bias? I NEVER speaker badly about a speaker I haven't heard. At worst, I've extrapolated based on models I've heard by a particular brand. I ONLY comment on speakers I've heard OR I speak in general about a brand based on the models I've heard. You, boudoir, seem to slam speakers you have heard and people you don't know.

Also, I own my own store. I can say what I want, when I want, how I want. If someone wants something that offers more than an NHT in a particular area, I will gladly recommend models by other companies that are more focused to their priorities at the expense of others. Want ultra clean midrange? Buy Quad ESLs (not Martin Logans). Want a great, expensive jazz speaker? Buy JMlab Mezzo Utopias (not Avante Garde - YECH!). Want precise, yet huge soundstage? Thiel 7.2s (not B&Ws). Want the kind of sound you get in a classical concert? Buy Genesis or upper end Maggies/Apogees with a Genesis subwoofer. I recognize my biases. I want accuracy first, detail second, followed by imaging/refinement, then bass depth/dynamics. But I prefer it all. That rules out most everything besides NHT at the prices I'm willing to pay. Especially for music. And, of course I won't send people to buy B&Ws. They're overpriced and underperforming compared to the other brands I mention above. I spent one semi-miserable year selling them because it was the best brand the store sold and the only other speakers in town were all mass-market. I tried to talk the guy into switching to Paradigm or some other speaker, but he didn't do it til after I left and gave him some competition with brands *I* liked.
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post #193 of 364 Old 04-23-2003, 07:59 PM
 
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Oops. Are reactions to personal attacks allowed? Wait, I hear my Mommy calling...........
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post #194 of 364 Old 04-23-2003, 08:02 PM
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WARNING...Danger...Danger....Persoanl attacks are not welcome. Account can and will be closed. Keep the posts in check please.
and i thought things only got heated in the Rocket threads...


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post #195 of 364 Old 04-23-2003, 09:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Ashman
Oops. Are reactions to personal attacks allowed? Wait, I hear my Mommy calling...........
They are welcome to the condition that NHT return the ball and pay for a banner ad. Then, every speaker sold on this forum will be subject to a commission pay to avs. To protect their sales, no NHT criticism will be permitted in the future:D

Grosse Fatigue, now Boudoir
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post #196 of 364 Old 04-23-2003, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Ashman
And, of course I won't send people to buy B&Ws. They're overpriced and underperforming compared to the other brands I mention above. I spent one semi-miserable year selling them because it was the best brand the store sold and the only other speakers in town were all mass-market.
Why don't you tell us what you really think.

I guess my N802's are a worthless pile of crap compared to whatever it is you're selling today.

Spiffs must be good on NHT's. ;)
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post #197 of 364 Old 04-23-2003, 09:50 PM
 
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Originally posted by eggman
I guess my N802's are a worthless pile of crap compared to whatever it is you're selling today.

Spiffs must be good on NHT's. ;)
Not at all. They look like an $8000 speaker, so clearly that and prestige is worth something to some people. NHTs are ugly by comparison and easily afforded by the masses. I was only speaking of sound where the would be far more competitive in the $4000 range. Most of us can't afford to spend twice the price for reasons other than raw performance. :)
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post #198 of 364 Old 04-23-2003, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Ashman
Most of us can't afford to spend twice the price for reasons other than raw performance. :)
I didn't spend twice the price.

I paid $4500 for a pair that's only a year old, including spikes and shipping and they're in pristine condition.

Shame on you if you pay MSRP for speakers, especially with the HUGE margins that's built in on the damn things.
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post #199 of 364 Old 04-23-2003, 10:26 PM
 
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Hey, that's good! You can resell those at will and pick up some T6s used if you can find any come up for sale. Probably two pairs of T6s in fact. I wonder why they sold their N802s.............
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post #200 of 364 Old 04-24-2003, 03:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Ashman
.. I wonder why they sold their N802s.............
They upgraded to the N800s. You are always a step behind.
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post #201 of 364 Old 04-24-2003, 05:56 AM
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Do you have to have TWO crossovers modules to get stereo bass from the t6's, or just one crossover with two amps ?...also the nht amp modules dont have any eq in them do they ? (crossover is where the eq is at correct ?)
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post #202 of 364 Old 04-24-2003, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Ashman
Hey, that's good! You can resell those at will and pick up some T6s used if you can find any come up for sale. Probably two pairs of T6s in fact. I wonder why they sold their N802s.............
And you don't have an agenda.

Always Be Closing baby.

Try going into into the insurance game. You could probably make make a lot more money.

And he sold them because he was a higher up at a big electronics chain, was moving to a new location (out of state), and was getting a new pair of Kef reference speakers to use because that's a new line they are starting to handle. He didn't feel like moving the 802's just to sell them when he got to his new location.

Hopefully that answers your question.
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post #203 of 364 Old 04-24-2003, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by psujohny
Do you have to have TWO crossovers modules to get stereo bass from the t6's, or just one crossover with two amps ?...also the nht amp modules dont have any eq in them do they ? (crossover is where the eq is at correct ?)
The X-1 crossover can be run in mono or stereo, depending on the number of amps you have. There is a switch on the back: mono or stereo.

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post #204 of 364 Old 04-24-2003, 11:53 AM
 
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And the EQ is in the crossover rather than the amp. Any amp can be substituted, it's just that the A1s are a great deal and look great with the system.
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post #205 of 364 Old 04-24-2003, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by James Elvick
Hello Craigdcan,

Where was the recent review of the Evolution comparing them to the Nautilus 801's? I'd love to read it!
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/nht_evolution_t6.htm
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post #206 of 364 Old 04-24-2003, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Ashman
Hey, that's good! You can resell those at will and pick up some T6s used if you can find any come up for sale. Probably two pairs of T6s in fact.
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.p...ull&1055187650

Two pairs of T6's on sale right now on Audiogon.
$2600 each pair or both for $5k.
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post #207 of 364 Old 04-24-2003, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GuyB
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.p...ull&1055187650

Two pairs of T6's on sale right now on Audiogon.
$2600 each pair or both for $5k.
Chances are these are not from an authorized dealer, if that's important to you.

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post #208 of 364 Old 04-24-2003, 03:30 PM
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Originally posted by tonygeno
Chances are these are not from an authorized dealer, if that's important to you.
Certainly not important to me.

I wouldn't trade my N802's for four sets of T6's.
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post #209 of 364 Old 04-24-2003, 04:38 PM
 
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This will kick up some dust. Read, talk amongst yourselves, comment.............

From reknowned speaker designer Lynn Olsen pulled from "The art of speaker design"

"At present, though, even the best Kevlar, carbon-fiber, or aluminum cones show at least one high-Q peak at the top of the working range, requiring a sharp crossover, a notch filter, or both to control the peak. Unfortunately, this peak usually falls in a region between 3 and 5 kHz, right where the ear is most sensitive to resonant coloration.




Most audiophiles and magazine reviewers are unaware of the sonic signature of Kevlar or carbon-fiber resonance, misidentifying it as "amplifier sensitivity," "room sensitivity," or other problems that point away from the real culprit. Since few reviewers have auditioned the raw, unmodified sound of commonly-used drivers, they can?t evaluate how much "Kevlar sound," or "aluminum sound," remains as a residue in the finished design. It is the task of the designer to skillfully manage the crossover and cabinet profile to minimize the driver coloration. Despite advertising claims or the opinions of nationally famous reviewers, the characteristic signature of a driver can never be removed completely.




When working with rigid-cone drivers, there are some hard choices to make: if you lower the crossover frequency to minimize driver coloration, tweeter IM distortion skyrockets, resulting in raspy, distorted high frequencies at mid-to-high listening levels; if you raise the crossover frequency to improve the sound of the tweeter, the rigid-driver breakup creeps in, resulting in a forward, aggressive sound at moderate listening levels, and complete breakup at high levels. (Unlike paper cones, Kevlar, metal, and carbon fibers do not go into gradual breakup.) With the drivers we have today, the best all-around compromise is a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th-order (12-24dB/Oct.) crossover with an additional notch filter tuned to remove the most significant HF resonance of the midbass driver."

And, from the VMPS website, which has an interesting talk about differing materials:

2. Plastic. When polypropylene cones became available in 1984, we switched to them immediately. The advantages over paper were obvious both sonically and otherwise. R 1 (rigidity/mass) scores a "B" for plastic. R 2 (sound transmission) another solid "B", along with R 4 (lossiness). As for R 3 (formability), the grade is "A+". There is nothing you can?t make out of plastic, as you well know. R 5 (quietness) is another "B", since polypropylene in particular generates considerably less noise than paper, although it suffers from a unique "plastic" coloration.. R6 (durability) scores an "A": they?ll be digging up pristine unfossilized undegraded polypropylene a million years from now (maybe that?s not so good). R 7 (cost) is a "C". Good poly cones in the 12" size with surrounds cost $3 to $4, a lot more than paper but still reasonable. Only on R 8 (workability) does plastic fall down. Polypropylene is particularly difficult to glue to, and stay glued to. The industry has worked very hard on this over the past 15 years with good effect. Overall grade for plastic: "B"._

4. Kevlar. A polymer, Kevlar is currently the rage with some manufacturers who tout its "bulletproof" strength. Which is true. A woven material, Kevlar is strong axially (you can?t poke your finger through it). Radially, the stiffness you?re interested in to maintain cone shape and rigidity, Kevlar gets an "F". Kevlar must be permeated with a stiffener which makes it noisy (R 5 grade C), less lossy (R4 grade C), and less formable (R3 grade D). So much adhesive is added to most Kevlar cones that what you listen to is primarily what I call The Sound of Glue. Because of the stiffener, Kevlar suffers from pronounced breakup modes which are treatable only with the dreaded "notch filter" in crossover, which destroys phase integrity. Kevlar rates a "D" on R7, cost, with cones costing about as much as fiberglass. One of my least favorite materials, Kevlar gets an overall "D" grade from me, inspite of a "B" grade in R 1, stiffness-to-mass ratio._

And from a website talking about the various types of cabinet design

First, Acoustic Suspension

Advantages

Sealed enclosures are the simplest of all designs._ Easy to model with speaker software and easy to achieve predicted results._ Box size and shape are generally the least complex._ Great for both beginning and advanced DIY?ers._ The exact response characteristics which are desired can be achieved by simply designing for a particular Qtc.You can alter its performance only varying the size of the enclosure and the amount of stuffing material used._ Qtc ranges from 0.5 to 1.5 while 0.7 is generally considered ideal._ Read about Qtc by clicking on Sealed above.__Slowest of all cutoff rates below fB of 12 db/octave._This results in much quicker group delay responses ranging from 1ms ? 10 ms.__ Fast, quick, natural, smooth, tight, accurate, controlled and warm are some common terms that audiophiles use to describe sealed enclosures._ _Transient response is the best of all enclosure types._The excursion of the driver increases as the frequency applied decreases until fB is reached after which the driver excursion begins to decrease once again._No need for subsonic filtering due to the enclosure?s natural tendency to inhibit extremely low frequencies._ This results in less bottoming out of drivers at subsonic frequencies. More extended low frequency response than vented enclosures given the same f3 for both._ Phase shift is minimal between its normal operating frequency range._

_Disadvantages

Very low frequency output is minimal.__The -3dB down point (also know as f3) is usually fairly high, above 30 Hz in most applications._Less power efficient by about ?3 dB as compared with vented enclosures._ Lower over SPL capabilities._ Strong need for drivers with very large Xmax in order to ensure safe operation at least down to fB._ Any enclosure volume that models the system Q larger than 0.707 results in higher f3._ Lowest f3 is achievable only under an ideal Q = .707 alignment which may require unusually large and sometimes unacceptable enclosure volumes.

Now, Bass Reflex (ported/vented):

Advantages

Extended low frequency response._ 3 dB down points (f3) are capable of being near or even below 20 Hz._Increased power handling above fB due to reduced driver excursion at and while nearing fB._ Moreefficient system. _Generally 3dB increased output over sealed enclosures due to the combined output of driver and port._More overall SPL capabilities._ Deep, powerful, full, loud, inspiring, incredible, and earth shattering are common terms associated with vented enclosures._

_Disadvantages

Larger enclosure size._ More difficult to accurately achieve predicted results._Misaligned enclosures can result in very poor bass quality._ Very accurate T/S parameters of actual driver is required._ Although sometimes you can get away with using manufacturer?s specifications._ Driver unloading or bottoming out below fB is very common._ Xmax is reached easily below fB and may cause sever damage the the driver's suspension, voice coil or cone._ This usually requires the need to install additional high pass filtering below fB._ But is not a always a necessity as long as power levels and frequency content are kept within reason._Transient response is degraded, yielding typical group delay curves as high as 50 ms. Muggy, boomy, sluggish, one-note, slow, and inaccurate are common terms associated with vented enclosures.
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post #210 of 364 Old 04-24-2003, 06:00 PM
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This is the longest thread I have ever seen on NHT speakers. To bad a third of it is at the people and not the speaker.

I would like to know what ever body uses to drive their NHT's with.

When I bought my 2.9's I got a Denon 5700. About a year later I added the citation 7.1 to drive the 2.9's and a 5.1 for the vs-2 center channel and superzeros rear surrounds. It was a good improvement over the 5700.

Since B&W has been talked about here I will tell you that when I bought my 2.9's they were next to a set of 805's. All of the electronics were going through a switcher but as my son and I swapped from the 2.9's to the 805's their was very little change in the upper part of the music.
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