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Augh! Too many bookshelf speaker options!

3K views 45 replies 15 participants last post by  heavyharmonies 
#1 ·
Good gravy. I've literally spent tens of hours just in the last week reading here at AVS, online reviews, and watching Youtube reviews, searching for the best of the current crop of bookshelf speakers in my price range, and... consensus doth not exist.

The difficulty of the Interwebz is trying to differentiate hype and fanboyism from real data and reviews. It seems like the newest speaker is always the best...

I read all the rave reviews about Elacs and thought I would go that route... until I saw the bookshelf shootout thread where Elacs came off as "meh" compared to the field. Every brand has its fans... of course that review seemed to have been done focusing on a 2.0 setup for music, not necessarily integration with an HT environment.

Unless I'm willing to spend a bunch of money on shipping units back after auditions, there's no seemingly good way to go about this other than gritting my teeth and picking a set.

In the (vain? futile?) hopes of getting more data points, here's my situation:

I'm redoing my HT setup. Already have a Denon x4200W en route to replace an aging Denon 2807. I plan to set up a 5.2.4 configuration. I already have a pair of matched subwoofers for the .2 and plan to use upward firing Elac A4 for the .4 component (seem to be the most cost-effective option out there; in-ceiling not an option).

The issue is the 5. I want to go small, so no towers. I have enough room that the bookshelves do not have to be close to the wall. I would like to use the same speakers for rear surrounds as fronts.

The front speakers will be driven by a Carver M-1.0t amp (200wpc) via pre outs.

Listening will be 90% movies (4k Ultra Blu-Ray for the majority) and 10% music. This is definitely an HT setup as opposed to a music rig. As far as the types of movies, I'm all about special effect spectacles (sci-fi, disaster flicks, action). I usually get movies that are going to have the biggest visual impact.

Budget: Up to $350 per pair.

Short list in no particular order:

1. Elac B6 (although reports of subdued/rolled off treble make me question their being the best HT option in this price range)

2. Philharmonic AA (Meh in the looks department, but supposedly the most accurate of the bunch, cheapest of the three)

3. HTD Level 3 (Supposedly great treble and bass response, best lookers, most expensive of the three)

What say ye for HT use?
 
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#5 · (Edited)
I agree with the Klipsch Reference Premium for 90% HT as a fine option as, after all, most movie theaters use horns in their systems.

The RP model line has received compliments for not being as love it/hate it as many prior Klipsch speakers in terms of being overly bright/harsh for some.

They need very little power to blow you out of your seat.

Plus they are on a stiff discount at the moment. http://www.crutchfield.com/p_714RP1...21385&awat=pla&awnw=g&awcr=60648154705&awdv=c

If the mix were more toward music than movies I would recommend the Martin Logan LX16's now available at about 1/2 price but, no question, the Klipsch will play a bit louder given the same amount of power.

That is the only knock on the SVS system it is significantly LESS efficient at 87db than the Martin Logans (92db) and Klpsch (93db).

Given 50 watts the Klipsch will play 6db louder than the SVS which is significant.

The Philharmonic Audio speakers are intriguing but the little monitor is even less efficient than the SVS.
 
#4 ·
Agree, way too many good choices & you can't listen to all of them. Good luck [emoji3]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#10 ·
Hsu HB-1 MK2. $159.00 each, $189.00 if you go with Rosenut veneer.
 
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#11 ·
Another good choice for HT; need to add $50 for shipping and they charge tax.

So almost $400/pair when all is said and done.

Almost as efficient as the Klipsch which are $50 cheaper (only in Cherry are they discounted though) and play lower.

In black the Klipsch are more expensive.
 
#12 ·
SVS and HTD are risk free. Free return shipping as well, so in that regard....maybe that is the best option first.

I almost tried out the HTD myself, they are beautiful in the ebony. If music wasn't a major concern for me, I probably would have pulled the trigger on those.

SVS has a very theatrical dynamic type sound as well in my opinion. Again, I did audition these (the sats) and if music weren't a concern they could certainly be a solid choice.

Nothing to lose but your time on those if you don't like them.

I am in the same place as you with the online reviews and trying to separate opinions and science. Speakers seem to be equal parts science and art, maybe a little mojo. It's a moving target.
 
#13 ·
The issue is the 5. I want to go small, so no towers. I have enough room that the bookshelves do not have to be close to the wall. I would like to use the same speakers for rear surrounds as fronts.

The front speakers will be driven by a Carver M-1.0t amp (200wpc) via pre outs.

Listening will be 90% movies (4k Ultra Blu-Ray for the majority) and 10% music. This is definitely an HT setup as opposed to a music rig. As far as the types of movies, I'm all about special effect spectacles (sci-fi, disaster flicks, action). I usually get movies that are going to have the biggest visual impact.

Budget: Up to $350 per pair.

Short list in no particular order:

1. Elac B6 (although reports of subdued/rolled off treble make me question their being the best HT option in this price range)

2. Philharmonic AA (Meh in the looks department, but supposedly the most accurate of the bunch, cheapest of the three)

3. HTD Level 3 (Supposedly great treble and bass response, best lookers, most expensive of the three)
Of the 3 speakers above, if you're looking for "most accurate" in that price range I would add the EMPTek R5Bi which you can order on (alleged) B-stock for a mere $182/pair shipped. They won't have as much mid-bass as the other 3, but since you already have 2 subs that is a moot point---especially for 90% HT usage.
http://emptek.com/bstockZ1744.php

For even more immaculate accuracy, you can get free 2-way shipping on a pair of Ascend CBM-170SE at $350/pair. They are really too good to be used as surrounds IMO, but hey it's your money. :) If you like them, you can add the Ascend CMT-340SE for your center, which is an absolutely fabulous center for HT---it ain't cheap (costs the same as a PAIR of 170s) but the center does most of the HT output anyway so that's where you least want to cut corners. You can very easily cut corners with the surrounds, since they do a lousy 10-15% tops...a $52 pair of Dayton B652 is what I'd get for your surrounds if money requires.

But for sheer value, as well as beautiful looks, those EMPTeks are very hard to beat.
 
#14 ·
Good gravy. I've literally spent tens of hours just in the last week reading here at AVS, online reviews, and watching Youtube reviews, searching for the best of the current crop of bookshelf speakers in my price range, and... consensus doth not exist.

The difficulty of the Interwebz is trying to differentiate hype and fanboyism from real data and reviews. It seems like the newest speaker is always the best...

...

What say ye for HT use?
Sounds like you have a good perspective on things.

What makes you think there will be any consensus on those three choices? ;)
 
#15 ·
What makes you think there will be any consensus on those three choices? ;)
Isn't that the dang truth... for every list of N objects, there will be N*X different (maybe even N^X) opinions about them...

The Martin Logan refurbs are enticing, but there's no notice @ hifiheaven as to whether there's any manufacturer warranty. I would have to confirm.

It's been ages since I have demoed Klipsches (like 15+ years) and I recall at that time their treble harshness setting my teeth on edge... a lot can change in 15 years though.

More replies = more options/suggestions. YAY!... Interwebz 101. :D
 
#18 ·
Well... my paralysis by analysis only lasted a week or so... less than it usually does. :D

The more reading I did about the Martin Logan LX16 (and also did some comparisons between the LX16 and other contenders via Youtube), the more I became willing to stretch the budget slightly.

Someone suggested that instead of trying to match a center channel to my L/R, just get another matching speaker (assuming they can be purchased as singles and you can fit it vertically not lying on its side) and the more I thought about it, the notion of 5 perfectly matching speakers became more enticing... if nothing else for those occasional moments when I bust out the SACD or DVD-A.

So I called up Hifiheaven and was able to strike a deal for 5 brand new LX16 for $956 shipped... only $17 more per speaker than the refurbs would have cost me (no wiggle room on the refurb price... I tried). $17 for 5 year warranty instead of 1 year is easily worth it IMO.

Should be here Friday.

One of the complaints I've seen about the speaker is the lack of bass response, but I have a pair of 1st generation Elemental Designs A5-350 (15" downfiring) subs that I plan to run, which should take care of the bottom end quite sufficiently.
 
#19 ·
I hope you like them as much as I do; Greg at HiFiHeaven is great to work with.

Considering the nearly identical Monitor 15's have been favorably compared to bookshelves at the price you paid for 5 LX16's you did very very well.

And, yes, a subwoofer(s) with any speaker that goes down to 60hz, common for small footprint bookshelves, just adds to the experience.

Yours goes below 20hz so that is perfect.

Take about 10 hours to start opening up and supposedly 72 hours to fully break in, (I'm only at about 25 hours).

Enjoy!
 
#20 ·
You can get 5 emp tek bookshelfs for 5.1 system for $570 and you would have one of the best 5.1 systems for the money. Best part is that all 5 are same speakers so you get perfect timbre match all around.
 
#21 ·
Read the full thread - the OP made his purchase in post #18...
 
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#23 ·
UPS pooped on my porch this afternoon:

3 boxes containing the 5 Martin Logan LX16
2 sets of Sanus Speaker stands
2 pairs of Elac A4 Atmos speakers
200 feet of speaker wire
20 sets of banana plugs
Denon X4200W AVR

Good thing it's a long weekend coming up...
 
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#31 ·
Show us your LX16 speakers Heavyharmonies! We can't wait til after the fireworks!
 
#38 ·
^ I love reading Josh Ricci's tests and reviews!
 
#40 ·
So I got one set of Sanus stands put together and set up one of the LX16 pairs. Before turning them on I tempered my expectations, keeping in mind that this was strictly a 2.0 setup using my old Denon receiver and zero break-in (from past experience I am a firm believer in speaker and headphone break-in periods).

I spent about an hour demoing various audio cuts and a few Youtube videos. I specifically stayed away from any Blu-Ray content, as the HT config I ultimately will be running is so vastly different. Speakers about 8 feet apart, toed in, 3 feet from the wall, me sitting in the sweet spot about 9 feet in front of the speakers.

Comments in no particular order:

Can play at rather loud volumes with ease.

Not very forgiving if the recording is poor quality: garbage-in, garbage out.

There's something about the immediacy of a ribbon tweeter that other kinds just can't match; the abruptness of a snare hit, etc.

Does wonderful with acoustic recordings, symphonic work, trance. Not so much with hard rock and heavy metal, as those recordings tend to be more mid, low-mid, and bottom-heavy.

Great for demoing acapella vocals; they do really well representing the human voice.

The Two Steps from Hell discography is the bees knees for demoing movie scores.


All things considered, I'm quite pleased. Once these get 100 or so hours on them, I add in the two subs, and most importantly I'm driving them with the abundant power of the Carver 2-channel, I think these will sing nicely.

Since I have two Carver 2-channel amps, I think I might have one drive the fronts and the other drive the surrounds, then the X4200w will only have to drive the center channel and the Atmos speakers.

To be continued...
 
#41 ·
Yes, in 2.0 they lack lows, no question.

Once you get the sub in the mix they'll do great with Rock and Roll.

Enjoy.

They only get better with time...so crank'em up!

Enjoy.

Listening to Keane Live In London right now with my LX16's in 2.1.

The cat seems to like it.
 
#43 ·
So as of yesterday, I finally have the 5.2.4 setup fully configured, Audyssey calibration run, and watched a variety of material.

Note: nowhere near through with the break-in period on the speakers, so I'm not going to be overly critical.

The .4 height speakers add an interesting dimension. Very subtle in some material, more noticeable in others. I can't hear any pinpoint overhead sounds, but it adds an overall "depth" to the surround field. I've tried raising the vertical angle of the front Elac A4 modules in conjunction with what I believe the angle of reflection off the ceiling to be with respect to the seating positions, as well as upping the channel levels post-Audyssey.

I find that it's much harder to tell whether the height channels are "dialed in" compared to the normal surround field.

At some point I'm tempted to spring for two pair of the Martin Logan AFX to more closely match the LX16, but (1) considerably more expensive than the Elac A4 ($998 delivered for 4 speakers vs. $460 for the Elac), and (2) I have yet to find ANY extensive reviews of the AFX anywhere... just some anecdotal drive-bys. For now, the entry-level Elac A4s are sufficient.

Upmixing:

Oy, it's hard to keep track of all of the combinations of audio format output from the source material vs. the playback/upmixing options in the x4200w, especially on music discs. Depending on the disc, you may have any number of the following:

PCM 2.0 (24khz, 48khz, and/or 96khz)
Dolby Digital 5.1
DTS 5.1
DTS-HD Master Audio
Dolby TrueHD 5.1
Dolby Atmos
DTS:X

Then, once the signal hits the AVR, you've got selectable options of how to treat the above audio:

The raw audio as chosen above
Stereo
Multichannel stereo
Virtual
Dolby Digital + Dolby Surround (upmixing?)
DTS Neural:X
Audyssey DSX

The above are only SOME of the combinations. See full list here:

http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX4200W/EU/EN/OBAOSYyriqsmlp.php

It's agonizingly painful, the number of options. And it's extremely dependent upon the source. Sound options (both at the source end and the way the AVR treats it) that work best on one disc, may not on another. Am I wrong in just wanting a "best" option and not have to spend 10-20 minutes before each disc trying to figure out what will make it sound good?

Anyhoo, back to the content testing:

Both Atmos and upmixed height channels sound great on movies. For example, adding upmixing to Avatar really gives it an immersive experience.

Music... not so much. Music Blu-Rays, DVD-A, and SACD are a mixed bag. In most cases, I found the upmixing to reduce the sound quality, either adding a veil over the sound or burying the lead vocals.

I've read that the Auro upgrade does a much better job with music source material than the Dolby or DTS upmixing, but I'm loathe to drop $200 and then possibly discover that Auro is no better.

Any thoughts or suggestions?
 
#44 ·
Any thoughts or suggestions?
This isn’t too surprising. Sound giveth and sound taketh away. Starting with the immediacy and intimacy of a 2.0 or 2.1, then going to 5.1 or Atmos brings into play how speakers interact with your room and with other speakers. That is why you’ll see 2.0 and 2.1 music systems vs 5.1 and greater home theater systems. Those that want the best of both worlds, will often have separate systems in separate rooms. Judging speaker capability is best suited in 2.0 mode, but once that has been accomplished, the real work begins. And integrating the subwoofer in a 2.0 mix, can often be more challenging than many people think. Add in all the options available in modern AVRs, it can quickly become a bit overwhelming. Trying to judge something this complex in just a few days is pretty much impossible. It simply takes time, so give yourself all the time you need. Don’t be in a rush. The fact is, most people will be “tweaking” their systems for months (not that it didn’t sound pretty darn good on day one).
 
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#45 ·
Decided to rearrange my listening area a bit last night, to put me more in the "sweet spot". Also, I backed off the tilt on the Elac A4 modules to their original flat position, and re-ran Audyssey.

Still sounds better with the height levels boosted 3-4db from where Audyssey puts it, as well as boosting the subs 6-7db. Audyssey's preferred sub settings are puzzling.

Since I last did any testing, I had downloaded the Sep. 2015 Dolby Atmos Demo disc and burned it to Blu-Ray, so I went through it fairly extensively.

1. Your listening position makes a big difference. If you're in the sweet spot, the height effects are more noticeable than if you're seated off to the left or right.

2. The source makes a big difference. Whereas the effects in actual movie and music source I had tried was subtle, these demo clips optimized for Atmos showcase the height effects much more dramatically.

I spent quite a bit of time with the upmixing options on (1) Eagles Farewell Tour blu-ray, and (2) Star Wars: The Force Awakens blu-ray. The differences between the native surround and the upmixed versions are interesting. In general:

1. The native surround mix is more crisp and clear with respect to effect locations, but thinner.

2. The upmixed versions, while not as crisp or clearly defined as far as position, produce a much deeper, more enveloped sound presence.

I must have switched between surround modes several hundred times last night (I wish the Denon x4200w had a surround mode last used/swap button). Overall I preferred the immersive experience of the upmixed surround. I found that after several minutes of watching the upmixed audio, and the brain becomes used to it, if you switch back to the native surround, it's as if the entire surround presence "shrinks" in comparison.

Still not getting any strong overhead effects though. Since I'm in my 30-day return period on the Elac A4 modules, I have a set of 4 of the Klipsch modules on the way to compare. I'm also curious about the option of mounting the Klipsches up high on the front and rear walls as an alternative to using them as upward-firing, so I intend to explore that a bit as well.

The tweaking continues...
 
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#46 ·
What you all cannot see from the other side of the computer screen is that big old ****-eatin' grin on my face. Got the AHA! moment (well, many of them, actually...) tonight when I got to experience Atmos REALLY working well.

What was the answer?

A set of 4 Klipsch RP-140SA arrived today. I swapped out the Elac A4 speakers I had been using, and put the Klipsch in the exact same places (sitting on top of my Martin Logan LX16 front and rear). I re-ran Audyssey, pumped up the channel levels on the subs (+6db each) and heights (+3db each) the way I had with the Elac modules, and it's like night and day.

I don't know if it's the angle that the Klipsch uses, the driver arrangement, or something else, but now I'm getting all the overhead action that people have been talking about. Some of it is downright freaky.

I still want to experiment with mounting the Klipsch on the wall up at ceiling level, but worst-case scenario, I have a solution (the Klipsch have a bigger footprint than the Martin Logans though, so it's a clumsy and potentially dangerous arrangement as is).

I'm REALLY glad I did this experimentation while I was still within my return period on the Elac A4s.
 
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