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post #91 of 415 Old 04-26-2003, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bghead8che
Faith is fine unless she cuts her hair. ;)

-Brian
Then it's all over between she and I. This however causes me to pause, take stock of the situation, and consider the idea that she may not even care what I think.:eek:
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post #92 of 415 Old 04-26-2003, 09:53 PM
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Imagine getting a bad haircut and having the whole nation point it out to you!

-Brian

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post #93 of 415 Old 04-26-2003, 09:58 PM
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You mean the "Rosie O'Donnell Syndrome"? :D
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post #94 of 415 Old 04-26-2003, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by bigwally
Then it's all over between she and I. This however causes me to pause, take stock of the situation, and consider the idea that she may not even care what I think.:eek:
That's why I'll take Norah. She's younger and can be more easily manipulated. Yep, I'd say she is definitely the current Star of Texas.

Russ Tarvin
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post #95 of 415 Old 04-26-2003, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by bigwally
You mean the "Rosie O'Donnell Syndrome"? :D
Are you sure you aren't thinking of Rosanne Barr?

Russ Tarvin
If it's too loud, you're too old.
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post #96 of 415 Old 04-26-2003, 10:18 PM
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Potato - potahto.
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post #97 of 415 Old 04-26-2003, 10:22 PM
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how did this thread get resurrected??? :rolleyes:
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post #98 of 415 Old 04-26-2003, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rt297
That's why I'll take Norah. She's younger and can be more easily manipulated. Yep, I'd say she is definitely the current Star of Texas.
Yer a dirty old man. Send the babysitter home and go wash your brain out with soap!
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post #99 of 415 Old 04-26-2003, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bghead8che
Why if the Rockets are so overwhelmingly endorsed did they go and create a speaker line (Reference) w/ a sound that is quite a bit different? Perhaps to address a different crowd?

Most manufacturers try to keep the same voicing throughout their different lines.

Seems to me that if people love the Rocket sound they would tend not to like the Reference sound.

Thoughts?

-Brian
i guess folks missed it when i posted that i like the Rockets and i LOVE the Refs. different presentations, but both very satisfying to me...i just happen to like the Refs better for 2ch music.

i believe Sa-dono has a similar opinion as does hectic1...so it seems that it is possible to enjoy both speakers even if they sound different. :)
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post #100 of 415 Old 04-26-2003, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mad Dog
how did this thread get resurrected??? :rolleyes:
I feel the same way........

Of course what a surprise to the reason :p

And this is the first time I've seen rt and wally so chatty in quite a while.

Also, didn't Faith already cut her hair short?
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post #101 of 415 Old 04-26-2003, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rt297
Brian,
The Onyx Reference line is not designed or owned by the AV123 team. They are just the distributor and my guess as to why they chose to add someone else's line is that the quality is up to their standards, and they feel there are those who will enjoy their sound. Mark Schifter is a pretty sharp guy, and he knows what to offer his market.
The Onix Reference line was designed by the TEAM of Mark Schifter, Thierry Comte, and Mr. H. H. Pu...They are manufactured by AV123s production facility in the PRC.
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post #102 of 415 Old 04-26-2003, 10:34 PM
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I can see it now........

Next month Wilson Audio designs a new line for people that like it "lush"

-Brian

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post #103 of 415 Old 04-26-2003, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bghead8che
Why if the Rockets are so overwhelmingly endorsed did they go and create a speaker line (Reference) w/ a sound that is quite a bit different? Perhaps to address a different crowd?
Mark has answered this question in the past but since it's been asked AGAIN, i'll attempt to answer it...

The Rockets were designed primarily with HT in mind and not music. While they sound quite good for music, their strength is HT.

The Reference line was designed to excel first and foremost in 2 channel music. Better quality crossovers and drivers.
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post #104 of 415 Old 04-26-2003, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mad Dog
Mark has answered this question in the past but since it's been asked AGAIN, i'll attempt to answer it...

The Rockets were designed primarily with HT in mind and not music. While they sound quite good for music, their strength is HT.

The Reference line was designed to excel first and foremost in 2 channel music. Better quality crossovers and drivers.
I think you're paraphrasing Mark a bit. The Rockets were designed primarily for HT in terms of configuration with accompanying center and surrounds, but the sound is for both music and/or HT. A good speaker will do both equally well as most movie soundtracks are loaded with music. The Rockets do have a different sound from the Refs, but that's merely the difference between a Dick Pierce crossover design and a Thierry Comte crossover design.
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post #105 of 415 Old 04-26-2003, 10:59 PM
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Having two different voiced speakers is good because it gives people a choice.

I think my speaker companies, however, shoot for a neutral sound in all of their designs.

-Brian

Brian R. Smith
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post #106 of 415 Old 04-26-2003, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bghead8che
Having two different voiced speakers is good because it gives people a choice.

I think my speaker companies, however, shoot for a neutral sound in all of their designs.

-Brian
Most, if not all manufacturers shoot for a neutral sound. Unfortunately you can't really get neutral unless you're standing in the recording studio while the band records live, and that isn't likely to sound all that great even if you can find a band who still records that way. Dunlavy loudspeakers had among the flattest frequency responses of anything out there, but many complained they were too analytical. Many have said that Stax earspeakers are among the most neutral earphones out there, but I find mine to be a bit thin and etched sounding and many others have voiced similar complaints. There is no absolute neutral in loudspeakers, even if they measure ruler flat. Certain tweeters will sound harsh to me even if they are used in a "flat" design, and the reverse may be true to you with soft domes. What sounds neutral to you is really all that counts.
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post #107 of 415 Old 04-26-2003, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by bigwally
I think you're paraphrasing Mark a bit...
yes, Bigwally, i was paraphrasing...thanks for the detailed version...:)
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post #108 of 415 Old 04-26-2003, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Ozmai
Specifically, the one fact that stuck in my head is that for every 3 people that are happy with their products, service, etc...and actually take the time to voice their satisfaction, there are typically 11 that voice their concerns about a negative experience. In other words, people are MUCH more likely (about 4 times) to post their negative experience than they are to post their positive experience(s). I have to agree that I am guilty of this as well...when I have a good product that I love and works well, I typically just enjoy the product and talk up the company to my friends and family, but never really take the time to share my satisfaction with the suppliers themselves or others on a public board such as this.
I'm sure thats statistically true over a broad spectrum of products and services, BUT in subjective products (like audio) I get the feeling its the exact opposite. I wade through endless positive reviews of products to find an owner that actually criticizes his own equipment, they seem few and far between. Of course they like em, they bought em! ... Unless they have some failure, why would they complain? And how often does audio equipment really have a failure?

Of course i have no stats to back me up on this hypothesis, i just noticed that people tend to rave about their own equipment universally on these forums :).
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post #109 of 415 Old 04-27-2003, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bghead8che
Having two different voiced speakers is good because it gives people a choice.

I think my speaker companies, however, shoot for a neutral sound in all of their designs.

-Brian
Hello Brian...

Thanks for your comments and observations... I'm in Tokyo right now --- on my way back home... :)

Over the next day or so... I'll do my best to answer these questions and offer a few tidbits about what's going on in my brain about ONIX REF, Rocket etc. (and some mbl stuff too)...

Cool...

All the best...

mls

(bigwally... you're always right on...)

Founder and President
av123 / Rocket Loudspeakers
Perpetual Technologies
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post #110 of 415 Old 04-27-2003, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bghead8che
I can see it now........

Next month Wilson Audio designs a new line for people that like it "lush"

-Brian
If they did - would you have a problem with it?
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post #111 of 415 Old 04-27-2003, 06:53 AM
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I was waiting to do some more serious listening to post about this, but I would like chime in on what I found and a little of our background (you can skip if you've read from other threads I've posted)

I was a Klipsch wannabe. My wife and I spent a lot of time at Tweeters auditioning some high-end speakers like Sonus Faber, Sienna, and Klipsch Ref7 series. She is a pianist and we have produced 8 albums of her solo piano music, so I KNOW that material intimately.

We both preferred the Klipsch sound. I reported here and elsewhere that I could hear distortions on the Klipsch speakers that I knew was on the recording, but could not hear it on the other speakers, so the conclusion was that the Klipsch was more detailed and faithful to that detail.

I now can admit to a slight confusion as I could hear the "distortions" more frequently and in different places than I remembered them, but we had produced the albums over 3 years ago and my memory is, well, challenged at that range.

The sound was a "schsss" sound, like the the distortions caused by our mastering engineer when he did some compression/limiting on the material (it's tough to do this to piano w/out ruining the sound!).

OK, fast forward. To make a long story short, we could not physically fit the Klipsch RF-7's into our HT. I was nearing the end of my HT project and needed to get SOMETHING coming, so I took a flying leap of Faith (based on the glowing reviews and the integrity of the AVS folks) and ordered a full set of Rocket speakers with RS750 and RS200 in front and RSS300/RS250's sides and rears.

My acid test was to listen for the "distortion" that I could hear so clearly on the Klipsch. I could not hear it on the Rockets.

Uh -Oh.:(

Well, at least they are GREAT HT speakers. :D They really are! The tightest, kickingest bass I've heard from a full-range speaker. Great sound at all levels, etc. Wonderful HT speakers. Not to mention drop-dead beautiful and built solid as a rock. Definitely Keepers.

Went back and did some more critical listening. First off, Flim and the BB's Trycycle never sounded better. Great! Could feel the bass drum hits upstairs w/no sub involved. Sax was bold and sassy. cool.

Went back to our piano music and listened carefully on two-channel direct..... Hey! What's that???
That's the felt dampers on the piano strings, making a soft "schsss-schsss" sound as Sweet Nancy worked the pedals! The Klipsch had taken that sound and blown it up enough that I was actually wincing when I heard it at Tweeters! The actual distortions were on an entirely different track from the ones we had used at Tweeters!!

So.... My conclusion is that the Rockets are incredibly detailed too w/out over-emphasis of some of the high freqs.

I'm a believer and have never received any kind of "deal" or incentive from AV123.

Mark was kind enough to call me personally from China (!) to discuss some placement questions I had. We ended up chatting about everything but placement (I had that pretty well figured out by then). What a gracious gentleman with an incredible business model that is actually WORKING!! They are able to deliver great speakers at a great price because of this. No B&M stores. No print advertising. No commissioned salesmen/distributors/dealers that all need a big piece of the pie to stay in business. I can't wait to see print reviews - they have been slow coming since the mags take care of their paying advertisers first.;)

I am glad I took the risk and bought them sight-unseen. Anyone who can get to Lancaster, PA is welcome to drop in and check them out!!

Bear in mind that I am by no means a "golden ear" or an "audiophile". I just have a strong sense of what sounds "right" to me. The Rockets do.

Gordon
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post #112 of 415 Old 04-27-2003, 08:13 AM
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Gordon,
You are hearing what you are supposed to hear on the Rockets, and your description is better than I am able to put into words.
BTW. I have been through your web site and listened to a lot of the tracks you have up. Very nice. You've put a lot of work into your studio, and it shows.

Russ Tarvin
If it's too loud, you're too old.
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post #113 of 415 Old 04-27-2003, 08:27 AM
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Thanks, Russ!
Psycho-acoustics is such a "weird science" that it's almost impossible to say what is "better". I've been involved with and conducted blind shootouts with different hi-end microphones and mic preamps and am convinced no one hears things the same way, but some "golden ears" were more discerning. I also learned that I am NOT one of them. :)

I was hanging my hat on this "distortion" sound as an objective proof of Klipsch's superior detail and fooled myself badly. It took careful listening on broken-in Rockets (they did open up a LOT after a few hours on them) to "hear what I was supposed to hear" as you said.

Gordon
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post #114 of 415 Old 04-27-2003, 09:01 AM
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<<Having two different voiced speakers is good because it gives people a choice.

I think my speaker companies, however, shoot for a neutral sound in all of their designs. >>

I meant to type "MANY" not "MY".

I think MANY speaker companies, however, shoot for a neutral sound in all of their designs.

I don't own any companies :D

Brian R. Smith
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post #115 of 415 Old 04-27-2003, 09:14 AM
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Brian,
You can probably be thankful you don't own any speakers companies. There is a saying that to make a million dollars in audio, all you have to do is start with 2 million, and eventually you will end up with a million. :p

Russ Tarvin
If it's too loud, you're too old.
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post #116 of 415 Old 04-27-2003, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rt297
[B
For instance, take a Rocket 250, boost the treble in the receiver 4 to 6 db, and you pretty much have the Ref 1's for half the price. [/b]
Dude thats interesting, can you tell me how to turn my RS-550s into electrostatics? I'd love to fire up my system in Martin Login-mode once in a while for kicks ;)
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post #117 of 415 Old 04-27-2003, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA
Dude thats interesting, can you tell me how to turn my RS-550s into electrostatics? I'd love to fire up my system in Martin Login-mode once in a while for kicks ;)
First you're going to need a 25 ft. roll of Saran Wrap...

Actually, I think rt297 qualified that comment in a subsequent post.
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post #118 of 415 Old 04-27-2003, 11:25 AM
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Come on ... we have the technology .. we can make a Meta-System with a special amp and some killer speakers ....

I see the switch on the remote now:

Speaker Signature:
1. Rocket RS-750
2. Onix Ref 1
2. Mag 6.1
3. Klipsh Reference 3
4. Martin Logan
5. JBL Reference 3
6. Dahlquist DQ-10
7. Infinity Intermezzo 2
8. Marshall Amp

( I know i made up some of the models, no need to correct me)
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post #119 of 415 Old 04-27-2003, 11:31 AM
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C'mon now! Everyone knows numbers 2-10 are "boom and tizz" speakers. Why would you even need that remote? :eek:

Brian R. Smith
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post #120 of 415 Old 04-27-2003, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Groff
I was waiting to do some more serious listening to post about this, but I would like chime in on what I found and a little of our background (you can skip if you've read from other threads I've posted)

I was a Klipsch wannabe. My wife and I spent a lot of time at Tweeters auditioning some high-end speakers like Sonus Faber, Sienna, and Klipsch Ref7 series. She is a pianist and we have produced 8 albums of her solo piano music, so I KNOW that material intimately.

We both preferred the Klipsch sound. I reported here and elsewhere that I could hear distortions on the Klipsch speakers that I knew was on the recording, but could not hear it on the other speakers, so the conclusion was that the Klipsch was more detailed and faithful to that detail.

I now can admit to a slight confusion as I could hear the "distortions" more frequently and in different places than I remembered them, but we had produced the albums over 3 years ago and my memory is, well, challenged at that range.

The sound was a "schsss" sound, like the the distortions caused by our mastering engineer when he did some compression/limiting on the material (it's tough to do this to piano w/out ruining the sound!).

OK, fast forward. To make a long story short, we could not physically fit the Klipsch RF-7's into our HT. I was nearing the end of my HT project and needed to get SOMETHING coming, so I took a flying leap of Faith (based on the glowing reviews and the integrity of the AVS folks) and ordered a full set of Rocket speakers with RS750 and RS200 in front and RSS300/RS250's sides and rears.

My acid test was to listen for the "distortion" that I could hear so clearly on the Klipsch. I could not hear it on the Rockets.

Uh -Oh.:(

Well, at least they are GREAT HT speakers. :D They really are! The tightest, kickingest bass I've heard from a full-range speaker. Great sound at all levels, etc. Wonderful HT speakers. Not to mention drop-dead beautiful and built solid as a rock. Definitely Keepers.

Went back and did some more critical listening. First off, Flim and the BB's Trycycle never sounded better. Great! Could feel the bass drum hits upstairs w/no sub involved. Sax was bold and sassy. cool.

Went back to our piano music and listened carefully on two-channel direct..... Hey! What's that???
That's the felt dampers on the piano strings, making a soft "schsss-schsss" sound as Sweet Nancy worked the pedals! The Klipsch had taken that sound and blown it up enough that I was actually wincing when I heard it at Tweeters! The actual distortions were on an entirely different track from the ones we had used at Tweeters!!

So.... My conclusion is that the Rockets are incredibly detailed too w/out over-emphasis of some of the high freqs.

I'm a believer and have never received any kind of "deal" or incentive from AV123.

Mark was kind enough to call me personally from China (!) to discuss some placement questions I had. We ended up chatting about everything but placement (I had that pretty well figured out by then). What a gracious gentleman with an incredible business model that is actually WORKING!! They are able to deliver great speakers at a great price because of this. No B&M stores. No print advertising. No commissioned salesmen/distributors/dealers that all need a big piece of the pie to stay in business. I can't wait to see print reviews - they have been slow coming since the mags take care of their paying advertisers first.;)

I am glad I took the risk and bought them sight-unseen. Anyone who can get to Lancaster, PA is welcome to drop in and check them out!!

Bear in mind that I am by no means a "golden ear" or an "audiophile". I just have a strong sense of what sounds "right" to me. The Rockets do.

Gordon
Here was my reply over on our forum... I wanted to post it here as well...

Greeting from Seattle... I'm on a three hour layover... :( but it has given me a few minutes of high speed Internet Time to hang out...

I have to share with you Gordon (and Nancy and bigwally)... how pleased I was to read this... I was beginning to feel "funny" about letting people in on my personal voicing preferences... I love a nice -- richly detailed sound... and I have always felt that the 750's are all of that in spades...

I have started seeing posts pop up in other places about how the 750's are without detail... or they are muffled (a blanket remark was used I do believe)... and I just had to ask myself what these folks are listening to in comparison... I KNOW THE 750... AND IT'S A SPECIAL PRODUCT TO BE SURE...

(off soap-box now)...

Thanks Gordon for believing in us... and I plan to copy this post over to avs (if I can here at "Laptop Lane"...) I appreciate (deeply) the fact that all of you are making a great leap of faith in my abilities... and those of my company by spending your hard-earned dollars with us... but even more... "investing in our model" alongside us...

Wishing you all the very best...

mls

Founder and President
av123 / Rocket Loudspeakers
Perpetual Technologies
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