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post #1711 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Thanks.

Other than driver layout/configuration and dimensions, what are the differences between the SCL-3 and SCL-4? Is one more suited for surround speakers and the other more suited for ceiling speakers? Both have the same MSRP so I was wondering what purpose each of the two are designed to cater to.

Does the SDP-75 have ARCOS or do you need a SDEC for ARCOS? Secondly, and as unbiased as possible, how does ARCOS compare to the "standard" EQ/room-correction on the Altitude32? Lastly, if the SDP-75 does not have ARCOS, what do I gain by having an SDP-75 + SDEC for ARCOS vs. an Altitude32 + SDEC for ARCOS?
The SCL3 requires a 6" stud bay depth, while the SCL4 will work with a 4" stud bay. The SCL3 will be more coherent at shorter listening distances due to the shorter span between the woofers and tweeter. One *might* consider the SCL4 more suitable for surround speaker placement since it has slightly more even dispersion. However, the SCL3 has a bit more coherent sound and is capable of slightly more output. It's more a matter of practical install considerations. If you have 6" to work with, go with the SCL3. If not, go with the SCL4. Either way, you will be happy

The SDP75 does not currently have ARCOS, but it will eventually incorporate all of the technology (probably by the end of the year). If you want ARCOS right now, you need an SDEC.

Remember that JBL's SDP75 will have the ability to load in specific anechoic data for ALL Revel and JBL speaker models. The Trinnov will not have this capability. Also, the SDP75 will have the new Harman target curves developed by Toole and Olive, while it is not clear at this point whether or not the Trinnov will incorporate them.

So essentially, the SDP75 will be like a Trinnov custom designed for Harman speakers (JBL and Revel).

Some of the details are still being worked out, but right now it looks like an SDP75 will eventually have ARCOS built in, it may just be a while before it is fully implemented.

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post #1712 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJR79 View Post
As far as sound reproduction, how does the lsr708i compare to lsr6332? How about the M2 vs Salon 2?
As some who have been following this thread know, we have all the above speakers in house (except the LSR6332) and will be doing some comparative listening very soon (in fact, we have already done some preliminary sessions). We currently have on hand:

JBL M2
Revel Salon2
JBL LSR708i
Revel F208
Revel F36

Here's my big dilemma:

There are numerous people waiting for us to post our thoughts on how these speakers compare, and / or waiting to come by and listen for themselves. I've been reticent to post my own thoughts, as I do not want to prejudice someone who comes in for their own listen, PLUS all of my listening sessions have been done sighted (with all the resulting drawbacks that come from a sighted evaluation).

So, my thought was to invite everyone interested over to my place for listening sessions of the above speakers. Ideally, we would set up a truly blind listening test along the lines Dr. Toole suggested, using the guidelines I posted from him earlier. We are still working on the details around this, as creating the environment for a scientifically controlled listening test is challenging in a showroom or home. However, we want to give it our best shot!

So, my questions for everyone here:

1. Do you want me to share my own thoughts on the differences between the speakers NOW, or wait until we can do some more blind tests?

2. Ditto, except wait for others who want to listen without preconceived notions to have their own shot before I post my personal impressions? BTW, anyone here in Colorado is welcome to swing by to listen, or even come in from out of state. Of course, their impressions could be shared here as well.

3. Wait until I can properly set up a blind test protocol AND advertise the "shootout" to be held at a later date (with permission from AVS, which I have already secured). The challenge - I leave for NY on July 2nd for my niece's wedding, and won't be back until mid-July. Any listening GTG will have to wait until close to the end of July. However, this has the advantage of plenty of advance warning so anyone truly interested can make plans to be here.

Open to feedback...
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post #1713 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
As some who have been following this thread know, we have all the above speakers in house (except the LSR6332) and will be doing some comparative listening very soon (in fact, we have already done some preliminary sessions). We currently have on hand:

JBL M2
Revel Salon2
JBL LSR708i
Revel F208
Revel F36

Here's my big dilemma:

There are numerous people waiting for us to post our thoughts on how these speakers compare, and / or waiting to come by and listen for themselves. I've been reticent to post my own thoughts, as I do not want to prejudice someone who comes in for their own listen, PLUS all of my listening sessions have been done sighted (with all the resulting drawbacks that come from a sighted evaluation).

So, my thought was to invite everyone interested over to my place for listening sessions of the above speakers. Ideally, we would set up a truly blind listening test along the lines Dr. Toole suggested, using the guidelines I posted from him earlier. We are still working on the details around this, as creating the environment for a scientifically controlled listening test is challenging in a showroom or home. However, we want to give it our best shot!

So, my questions for everyone here:

1. Do you want me to share my own thoughts on the differences between the speakers NOW, or wait until we can do some more blind tests?

2. Ditto, except wait for others who want to listen without preconceived notions to have their own shot before I post my personal impressions? BTW, anyone here in Colorado is welcome to swing by to listen, or even come in from out of state. Of course, their impressions could be shared here as well.

3. Wait until I can properly set up a blind test protocol AND advertise the "shootout" to be held at a later date (with permission from AVS, which I have already secured). The challenge - I leave for NY on July 2nd for my niece's wedding, and won't be back until mid-July. Any listening GTG will have to wait until close to the end of July. However, this has the advantage of plenty of advance warning so anyone truly interested can make plans to be here.

Open to feedback...
I don't care either way, but I'd suggest posting your feedback and using spoiler tags
Spoiler!
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post #1714 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 05:33 PM
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John,
Reread post #1695.

I think the differences between the speakers will be minor on the grand scale as Floyd suggests. It would be assumed that the more expensive Salon would be better than the less expensive Revels. Ditto the M2 over the 708.

You have revealed your impressions in the past. In this instance, I think you are better off letting people demo them on site and making their evaluations. So, I would say don't reveal your opinion and have a GTG and let people come to their own conclusions.
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post #1715 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomas2 View Post
Greetings Dr Toole

Can you share what four amps and what speakers ?

Thanks in advance
That was a long time ago! Among the speakers chosen because they were difficult to drive for one reason or another were KEF 104/2, Quad ESL, AR-3a, and one more I forget. Among the amps were my old Dynaco SS (I forget the model), my new BGW amp, a new Sony "superamp", a Crown DC-300, and several others brought in by dealers and I simply forget what they were.
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post #1716 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
As some who have been following this thread know, we have all the above speakers in house (except the LSR6332) and will be doing some comparative listening very soon (in fact, we have already done some preliminary sessions). We currently have on hand:

JBL M2
Revel Salon2
JBL LSR708i
Revel F208
Revel F36

Here's my big dilemma:

There are numerous people waiting for us to post our thoughts on how these speakers compare, and / or waiting to come by and listen for themselves. I've been reticent to post my own thoughts, as I do not want to prejudice someone who comes in for their own listen, PLUS all of my listening sessions have been done sighted (with all the resulting drawbacks that come from a sighted evaluation).

So, my thought was to invite everyone interested over to my place for listening sessions of the above speakers. Ideally, we would set up a truly blind listening test along the lines Dr. Toole suggested, using the guidelines I posted from him earlier. We are still working on the details around this, as creating the environment for a scientifically controlled listening test is challenging in a showroom or home. However, we want to give it our best shot!

So, my questions for everyone here:

1. Do you want me to share my own thoughts on the differences between the speakers NOW, or wait until we can do some more blind tests?

2. Ditto, except wait for others who want to listen without preconceived notions to have their own shot before I post my personal impressions? BTW, anyone here in Colorado is welcome to swing by to listen, or even come in from out of state. Of course, their impressions could be shared here as well.

3. Wait until I can properly set up a blind test protocol AND advertise the "shootout" to be held at a later date (with permission from AVS, which I have already secured). The challenge - I leave for NY on July 2nd for my niece's wedding, and won't be back until mid-July. Any listening GTG will have to wait until close to the end of July. However, this has the advantage of plenty of advance warning so anyone truly interested can make plans to be here.

Open to feedback...
Another option is to pm people who would like to know. I would love to come to your place and meet you and listen to all of the speakers, but I live in Savannah ga so I don't think that will happen anytime soon. So you could write your thoughts down and just copy and paste in pms.
Thanks
Allen
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post #1717 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
That was a long time ago! Among the speakers chosen because they were difficult to drive for one reason or another were KEF 104/2, Quad ESL, AR-3a, and one more I forget. Among the amps were my old Dynaco SS (I forget the model), my new BGW amp, a new Sony "superamp", a Crown DC-300, and several others brought in by dealers and I simply forget what they were.
that is so old, like my dads **** that doesnt even come close to my humble newer stuff imo.

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post #1718 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
That was a long time ago! Among the speakers chosen because they were difficult to drive for one reason or another were KEF 104/2, Quad ESL, AR-3a, and one more I forget. Among the amps were my old Dynaco SS (I forget the model), my new BGW amp, a new Sony "superamp", a Crown DC-300, and several others brought in by dealers and I simply forget what they were.
Merci' (thanks) !

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post #1719 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 05:58 PM
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I'm definitely enjoying some of these responses. Laughing at others
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post #1720 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Tomas2 View Post
Once one reaches a certain level of monitor accuracy the mix will very effectively translate. For example these three monitors will sound different:

Dynaudio BM15A
JBL LSR28P
Meyer Sound HD-1

All are capable of being excellent tools to mix by. There's no need for the consumer to have the exact same hardware for reproduction. A well done mix is very robust and will translate just fine.
As I show in Figure 2.5 in my book, along with countless other data points accumulated over decades, the average axial response of loudspeakers in general is dangerously close to flat, including cheap entry level "junk". There are differences among them, of course, but they are random - there are an infinity of ways to be wrong, few ways to be good!

The most consistent difference among cheap and small speakers and the big boys is a lack of low bass and a lack of output. These can be mimicked by using an EQ and volume control on a state-of-the-art monitor. No need to clutter up the console with crappy loudspeakers.

As far as that undefinable descriptor "translation" is concerned, for some it seems only to an ability to whistle the melody and tap feet to the rhythm. "Replication" or "reproduction" would seem to be a more appropriate term these days. I have two cars that get reasonably close to "reproduction", so it is possible. The goalposts need to be moved!

We could debate the degree of neutrality required in monitor loudspeakers, but nowadays excellence is easily achieved it you know what you are doing - and more importantly if you care! It is still evident that "taste" is still evident in some well known monitor loudspeakers - and don't ask me to reveal them. It is clear from some data I see that some well known players still don't "get it". Of course they don't reveal measured data.

The fundamental problem in the audio industry is a lack of comprehensive and trustworthy data.
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post #1721 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Tomas2 View Post
Merci' (thanks) !
Hey, I came from Canada - je parle Francais - un peu!
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post #1722 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 06:09 PM
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I keep seeing the IL Infinity line tossed around a lot. I've had both the M2 and the IL40's in the same room. The IL40's were nice for almost two decades ago, but I wouldn't say they sound like the M2's, at all. I sold them to a friend for a great startup HT system for cheap.
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post #1723 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
....As far as that undefinable descriptor "translation" is concerned, for some it seems only to an ability to whistle the melody and tap feet to the rhythm.
I believe my post was clear enough. I gave a short list of then industry standard active monitors that apparently sound different yet each are fine reference(s) for mixing.

Quote:
.The fundamental problem in the audio industry is a lack of comprehensive and trustworthy data.
Not sure what you implying, but I've had the privilege to work with some very knowledgeable individuals in this industry.

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post #1724 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 06:39 PM
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well my old dad's mcintosh/ar system is his pride and joy....but its no contest to now....but maybe my dad's old ears and my old ear's cant hear

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post #1725 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 06:45 PM
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just about all the new speakers sound better than that 70's stuff...any brand now sounds better than the vintage? why?

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post #1726 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 06:47 PM
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but science ws so smart back then....nevermind go sell some books

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post #1727 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 06:48 PM
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I'm not saying they're bad. They're great speakers and, for the money, excellent. But I've seen some chasing the IL line to get "budget M2's" on this forum. No disrespect to the IL line at all. I bought 5 speakers, 2 subs, and a Denon receiver in 01 for a 5th of what the M2's come in at.

Great speakers. Just not budget M2 sound, IMO.
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post #1728 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 06:56 PM
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so 1970's top gear stuff like mcintosh and ar speaks can you tell diff between now?

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post #1729 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 07:07 PM
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well if mc and ar no good how bout paradigm and nad? my point is (going back thru all my mag reviews" is that its a biased/scientific paid industry....show some dynaudio/focal/revel spino's

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post #1730 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 07:10 PM
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and lasly I bought a couple jbl gti 18 inchers back in day and they were utter garbage...and when ask warranty wor new ones i got laughed at...so jbl is a joke company...

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post #1731 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 07:17 PM
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Strange thread to hang around then
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post #1732 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 07:43 PM
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Is the 708i the closest speaker you can get to a "budget" M2? I'm assuming that they won't be as dynamic due to their size, but I have no experience with either.

John have you or anyone else compared bass managed 708i's w/ multiple subs vs the M2? Seems like that would be an interesting comparison.
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post #1733 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
and lasly I bought a couple jbl gti 18 inchers back in day and they were utter garbage...and when ask warranty wor new ones i got laughed at...so jbl is a joke company...
Then why are you in this thread? Your contributions are rubbish
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post #1734 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 08:49 PM
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I believe my post was clear enough. I gave a short list of then industry standard active monitors that apparently sound different yet each are fine reference(s) for mixing.

Not sure what you implying, but I've had the privilege to work with some very knowledgeable individuals in this industry.
What is your definition of a "fine reference"?

I searched for measurements of the three monitors you referenced to discover what makes them "reference" monitors.

Unfortunately, I came up with bad news for one, the Dynaudio, and I couldn't find any measurements at all for the Meyer Sound HD-1.

- Dynaudio BM15A
Quote:
Like the Yamaha NS-10M and SundholmAcoustics monitor (both of which we have tested), the BM15A's sonicfootprint resembles that of a consumer loudspeaker. These monitors arenot flat and they are not designed to be flat.



- Meyer Sound HD-1
????





- JBL LSR28P


What is the criteria here for "reference"? The JBL is the only one that has any objective evidence to be considered "reference". At least if reference is going to have any meaning at all.
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post #1735 of 1859 Old 06-19-2017, 10:19 PM
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Hmmm, being compared to the Yamaha doesn't sound like a compliment. Weren't they derisively known as the Nasties?

Of course, Yamaha has made some pretty good speakers like the 1000s which I think may have been the first large use of Be. Now, Yamaha has come out with the new 5000 that may be a really nice speaker.

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post #1736 of 1859 Old 06-20-2017, 01:05 AM
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As some who have been following this thread know, we have all the above speakers in house . . . .
Just go ahead and share your thoughts John - this is a discussion forum after all - I can't imagine that will have any bearing on anyone else's expectations, they will already have their own huge expectation bias given how well known these speakers are.

They'll either think the Salons will be better because they are a more expensive and more 'polished' looking speaker, or they'll think the M2's are better because they're a professional/active/newer speaker.

Just for fun I'm going to have a wild stab at your guessing your preference:

For outright music reproduction you prefer the Salon 2's, they'll be giving you a slightly sweeter, refined and relaxed playback for music.

For movies you prefer the M2's, they're a little more forward, visceral, dynamic and exciting.

(Disclaimer - this is purely for fun, I've never even heard the M2's, though I own the Salon 2's, so this is entirely 'my' expectation bias at play!)
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post #1737 of 1859 Old 06-20-2017, 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
Notes on loudspeaker evaluations.

It is important to realize that the subjective rating scale is elastic. In the beginning of my evaluations, several decades ago, nothing was really good and I adopted a "fidelity" scale, where 10 was the best sound imaginable and 0 was the worst. To maintain some consistency in the subjective ratings it was necessary to provide "anchors" - products that were low scoring as well as some that were high scoring. Winners in these tests became the new "king of the hill". The candidates under test would then be rated within a context of products in general. It worked very well until most of the loudspeakers being tested achieved high ratings. On the scale of 10, these good products would all crowd together at the top of the scale, and differences were not statistically significant.

However, when a group of good products were compared with each other, the ratings expanded to fill the scale - the scale is elastic. But now the rating number cannot be considered in the original context of truly bad to truly good. Instead it is a relative rating, which I chose to call "preference" instead of "fidelity".

Two products that are truly very good, which would sit at the very top of a "fidelity" or "accuracy" scale in the global scheme of all loudspeakers might, when compared in isolation, generate numbers that suggest a large difference. Claims that product A "blows away" product B are often really just indications of a small, slightly audible difference. The winner is still the winner, but the relative ratings are unrealistic. This is why I suggest adding a third or fourth product into a randomized comparison (blind of course).
This is a very good point, and this applies to a wide variety of other studies, scientific or not, that involve subjects assigning a numerical rating. Great care must be taken when analyzing and drawing conclusions from this kind of data because the meaning of the numbers is very sensitive to context.

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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
Having done this for hundreds of products with hundreds of listeners, it is common to find that the very best products end up in a statistical tie. There is a point of diminishing returns. The biggest variable is the program material - the circle of confusion - and its interactions with the different products. As I keep on reminding people, the world's "best" loudspeaker cannot sound good with all recordings.

The good news is that a neutral loudspeaker is substantially recognizable from a spinorama set of measurements. The problem is that such data are scarce.
I would argue that just because two speakers end in a statistical tie doesn't mean that they sound the same. Of course, that's not what you are actually saying here, but I think it may be helpful to clarify to other readers that a statistical tie does not imply equivalence at all. All it really says is that not enough information is available to reach a conclusion one way or the other.

Along those lines, I do wonder about something though. Among speakers that rate similar to one another on average, do you notice any significant preference correlations between speakers and listeners? My thinking is that while a more neutral sound may be a universally preferred, preference for particular *flaws* may be much more individual. For example, suppose listeners are asked to compare two obviously flawed speakers, one with bloated bass and one with harsh treble. On average, they may rate equally, but perhaps some listeners always prefer the bass heavy speaker and some listeners always prefer the treble heavy speaker.

I think this preference for flaws could explain the proliferation of a wide diversity of poor performing audio products. In fact, the culture of the industry seems to encourage it. Audio product consumers are actually encouraged to indulge their preferences for flaws.

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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
Tweeter types? The evidence is in the measurements. Over the years membrane tweeters have shown a tendency to power compress, but this may or may not be true for all of them now. The larger size causes more beaming. Compression drivers have traditionally had great difficulties at very high frequencies, ending up in chaotic breakup. The new designs are greatly superior, so now there is a choice. In the meantime domes have just moved from good to excellent. With the addition of properly designed waveguides to match directivity at crossover good tweeters have become better tweeters. They need to be designed for individual systems though, taking into account midrange size and diffraction effects.
Chaotic breakup is not the only problem with CDs, right? Another problem is the inconsistent off-axis behavior of those break-ups. Yet another problem in typical applications involving horns, including the M2, the horn does not control dispersion in the very high frequencies like it does lower.

The M2 has very consistent dispersion from 500-10000 Hz, but above 10000 Hz, the pattern appears to narrow substantially. A similar pattern of narrowing occurs for the Revel Salon 2, and indeed this is a common characteristic in speakers in general as transducers are rarely designed to be smaller than 1" or so. When this occurs, the on-axis and listening window average measurements diverge substantially.

When deciding how to voice the speaker, which do you regard to be more important? And what about early reflections and power response? I know I'm asking some very difficult questions because if I look at spinoramas for the M2 and the Salon 2, I can see that different approaches were used for each speaker. The M2 is optimized for a flat listening window average response. The Salon 2, being a passive speaker, does not conform to any particular target exactly, but it appears to favor a flatter on-axis response while allowing more roll-off of the listening window average response. I'm inclined to conclude from those pictures that the M2 sounds brighter than the Salon 2, and that at least one of them does not have a subjectively neutral sound. Though I think this may be oversimplify things a lot. I'll maybe elaborate my thoughts on this in later posts.

For what it's worth, I recently listened to the M2s in John's room, sitting on-axis most of the time. My impression was that the top sounded very smooth (lacking any resonances) but also a little bit hot. It's tempting to say something like "some people will like that sound", but if the goal was to achieve a perfectly neutral sound, then I'm not sure the M2 accomplishes that as well in the top octave as in the 500-10k Hz range. Then again, I'm not sure any speaker does this well. When off-axis but still well within the 120 degree window, the M2s still sounded very good but lost just a bit of the magic. I could definitely perceive the beaming when moving my head a few feet side-to-side from the on-axis sweet spot. It looks like the beaming in the Salon 2 may be a bit less severe.
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post #1738 of 1859 Old 06-20-2017, 05:06 AM
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If two speakers are playing, then isn't there always an uneven upper end spatial response due to time of flight difference?

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post #1739 of 1859 Old 06-20-2017, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
What is your definition of a "fine reference"? - Meyer Sound ??
http://nbcpsourcing.com/wp-content/u...01/hd-1_ds.pdf

Each Meyer Sound HD-1 monitor was individually calibrated for +/- 1dB. The HD-1 is a world class precision reference near/midfield monitor.
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....What is the criteria here for "reference"?
Above I asked which amplifiers Dr Toole compared / tested and your seriously asking me about the relative quality of the Dynaudio BM15A

If you have any doubt about the usefulness of the BM15A, take a listen to Sting 'Brand New Day'

Cheers

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post #1740 of 1859 Old 06-20-2017, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Tomas2 View Post
http://nbcpsourcing.com/wp-content/u...01/hd-1_ds.pdf

Each Meyer Sound HD-1 monitor was individually calibrated for +/1 1dB. The HD-1 is a world class precision reference near/midfield monitor.
Above I asked which amplifiers Dr Toole compared / tested and your seriously asking me about the relative quality of the Dynaudio BM15A
I can't find the measurements in that document. Maybe it's missing a page?


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Originally Posted by Tomas2 View Post
If you have any doubt about the usefulness of the BM15A, take a listen to Sting 'Brand New Day'

Cheers
That mix has no bearing on whether or not the speaker is accurate or can be considered reference. By your standard any speaker that was used to create a good mix is a reference speaker.

I don't hold that view.
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