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Towers vs. Bookshelf.. what am I missing?

9K views 69 replies 23 participants last post by  Eyleron 
#1 ·
Hi everyone,

Earlier this year I purchased a new house with an open floor plan. My new living area is completely open between the kitchen, living room and dining room. About 40 x 30ish with 9 foot ceilings. My current set up is B&W 685's S2, HTM62, 684 S2, with a HSU VTF-15h MK2 all powered by a Pioneer SC-97.

I've got the itch to upgrade all my speakers (except sub) and everything I read says go towers up front for the size of my space. However, my current bookshelves are more than loud enough for the space and I have plenty of head room on the Pioneer to go louder than I comfortably listen. My listening is about 70% music to 30% movies. To be fair, with a little one and a second on the way, I don't listen at reference levels. However, when I have an opportunity to turn it up, I don't feel I'm pushing my current setup close to it's limit.

I guess my question is... what am I missing when I read all the recommendations saying a space of this size needs towers?
 
#2 ·
I guess my question is... what am I missing when I read all the recommendations saying a space of this size needs towers?
Nothing. :)
 
#3 ·
Fair enough:) I guess I'm trying to understand if I would be missing something if I was to go to say... 5 Sierra 2's for my next system vs. towers. My ear's and my gut say no... everything I read says I need to go towers up front.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Don't confuse the size of your space -vs- the size of your listening area.
The size of your overall space comes into play with your Subs and the lower frequency ranges (longer wavelengths) when it comes to building pressure in your space.
The size of your listening area has to do with the frequencies that your main speakers handle or should handle. Those shorter wavelengths are the more direct sound.

When it comes to the sound (not aesthetics) Towers -vs- Bookshelves, when used in conjunction with subs, comes down to how far the listener(s) are from the speakers, this is where the size of the speaker matters. "In general" a larger speaker, when engineered properly, will play louder. (This is where design, driver size, driver engineering, cabinet volume, efficiency and measured specs. come into play)

Personally, I like to figure, a bookshelf that will play clean, down to 60Hz or lower, with the right balance of power to efficiency, is normally good for a distance of 12-15' and under. Father than that, you probably should look at towers.

Unless of course, you just "want" towers....
 
#17 · (Edited)
Bill,
I do not follow this belief, but many people think that music doesn't need very low frequency extension so they recommend using towers full range instead of crossing over to a sub. While movies typically need very low frequency extension so it is best to use bookshelves crossed over to subs.

In my case, my music is just as bombastic and very low frequency laden as a typical movie, and I listen to movies and music at bombastic dB levels, so I always use towers crossed over to subs. I use tower speakers for the added output with less distortion, and use multiple subs for ultra low frequency extension with less distortion.
 
#18 ·
many people think that music doesn't need very low frequency extension so they recommend using towers full range instead of crossing over to a sub.
They also have no idea what Allison Effect is and why it's unavoidable with all of the drivers in the same box. BTW, the invention of separate subs and mains pre-dated the modern home theater by at least 20 years. I was using a sub/mains system in 1972, and I wasn't the first.
 
#20 ·
I don't believe that there are any hard and fast rules that govern any of this. The post that noted differences in listening distance was an important observation, in my opinion, because larger speakers, with more physical separation between drivers, may also be designed to voice properly at longer distances. It's not just about producing more SPL. It's also a matter of the distance where the sound from the various drivers are optimally designed to converge. Large tower speakers may be specifically designed to play better in large rooms, than they would in much smaller rooms, for that reason.

I do think that really good three-way speakers may offer better sound quality, than somewhat comparable two-way speakers, although again, I wouldn't care to overgeneralize about that. And larger (taller and deeper) cabinets offer the opportunity to create more physical separation among the various drivers, which coupled with efforts to sound isolate the various drivers within a cabinet, may result in better overall clarity. But, really good tower speakers tend to be more expensive than their smaller bookshelf counterparts. Just getting a tower speaker would be no guarantee of any audio improvement. And, there are also bookshelf speakers which offer good implementations of three-way systems, if that is preferred.

The bottom line for me is right back where the OP started. We are always curious about whether we are missing out on something, with respect to audio. But, the pursuit of that curiosity can be expensive. And, if the OP is satisfied with what he has, then he is really not missing anything at all in not having tower speakers.

Regards,
Mike
 
#23 ·
Thanks everyone for the comments. I'm finding the discussion interesting.

The bottom line for me is right back where the OP started. We are always curious about whether we are missing out on something, with respect to audio. But, the pursuit of that curiosity can be expensive. And, if the OP is satisfied with what he has, then he is really not missing anything at all in not having tower speakers.

Regards,
Mike
This is about the crux of it. I'm satisfied with how my current bookshelf's fill the room crossed over at 80hz with my HSU sub at the volumes we listen at. As I explore my urge to buy new 5.0 speakers, I'm just trying to understand if towers deliver something (at a similar listening level with a sub crossed over at 80hz) that I'm not getting now.
 
#25 ·
3.5 yr ago we moved to a garden home with a great room consisting of the LR and DR-turned library (It's just my wife and I so we use the eat-in nook as our DR.). I put the r-cc-l speakers in the bookcases (Infinity P163's and an old Klipsch KV-2 CC.) along one 14 ft wall and had run the sheathed #12 stranded Cu along the room's 27+ ft edge, leaving enough excess to run up/down in the walls and across the attic when I find someone else to do so (I'm still looking...), when my wife said, "Don't you have stands or pillars you can set them on?". She didn't want to lose her shelf/display space! I bought eight P363 towers on closeout for a song and moved the almost new P163's to my office - then to the bonus room for storage. Two of the towers went to my wife's music room for her stereo, which she loves, and four went to the corners f&r while the remaining pair, in series aiding, went on either side of the 55" monitor as CC (I now have a true wall of dialogue in the center!). She was happiest when she noticed that my hideous sub, a Polk PSW-505, was gone, too (With twelve 6.5" LF drivers, I deemed it superfluous - after watching my standard, "Master and Commander"... and ducking the cannon balls - both with and without it.). The bass was fine, if not floor rattling (... it's carpet on a concrete slab!). My wife is happy to have six more 'tables' on which she can place her seasonal display items... ugh!

What you need to establish is whether the towers you want will have enough LF extension to warrant forgoing the sub(s). There are BR bookshelf speakers, like my Klipsch RB-81ii's, with an 8" LF driver and 44 Hz (-3dB) bass extension. It is big & heavy (~28#), but currently a value from Klipsch/Amazon ($280/ea shipped.). You have to like their horn sound, however. I recently replaced mine with a pair of Heresys which have a 12" LF driver that doesn't go as low but include both a MF & HF horn to the bookshelf speaker's 1" Ti horn-loaded dome. The Heresys have a better midrange. Don't forget - the towers add that seasonal display space - great 'wife points'!
 
#27 ·
What you need to establish is whether the towers you want will have enough LF extension to warrant forgoing the sub(s). There are BR bookshelf speakers, like my Klipsch RB-81ii's, with an 8" LF driver and 44 Hz (-3dB) bass extension. It is big & heavy (~28#), but currently a value from Klipsch/Amazon ($280/ea shipped.). You have to like their horn sound, however. I recently replaced mine with a pair of Heresys which have a 12" LF driver that doesn't go as low but include both a MF & HF horn to the bookshelf speaker's 1" Ti horn-loaded dome. The Heresys have a better midrange. Don't forget - the towers add that seasonal display space - great 'wife points'!
The sub isn't going anywhere (even if I end up with towers):D Also, appreciate the mention of display space, but that isn't happening:eek: Wife points be damned;)
 
#29 ·
The best way to discover what you may be missing or not is to go visit some of the various audio shops in your area and give a listen to the different designs offered. As another has said, one must explore to find out. A couple of aspects of different speaker sizes worth mentioning is the size of the presentation. Say you are listening to someone playing the stand up bass. A large speaker may more closely approximate the size and weight of that instrument regardless of volume, with eyes closed you can practically see the guy plucking the strings in your home. A smaller speaker will give you the tone of the bass but perhaps not near the scope of it.
 
#30 ·
I think the towers would give better coverage and fullness having multiple drivers and resonating area
this is just pressure even at low volume

if you get a cup of water thrown on you, yes its water and your wet

but if you get hit by a shower of water, yes its water and your still wet, but it's more immersive and a different experience
 
#32 ·
I'm still not even sure what the OP wants to improve.

If it is detail/clarity then the OP should visit Magnolia/Best Buy and compare Martin Logan's Folded Motion tweeter to B&W as they carry both.

I found when comparing the two that the MLs offered more detail clarity in my home than my B&Ws but who knows what the OP will think.

Some people like the tower format but as others have said when you cross them to a sub around 80hz, it's not really necessary.

Regardless of Allison Effect and whatnot when I run my 2 towers in 2 channel direct without the sub they sound just fine with music, so much so that I usually run them that way when listening to music but that is less than 5% of the time.
 
#36 ·
Thanks for the response but I haven't voiced what I want to improve because that wasn't my intent for this thread. I have pretty good idea of the sound signature and brands I'm considering.

My purpose for this thread was/is to try reconcile that most of the information I read says a space my size would benefit from towers when I don't feel my current system lacks in the space. However, I've never had towers so I don't have a point of reference to compare.
 
#43 ·
FWIW, I'm going to voice my experience.

I have a pair of older 3-way towers, with crossovers at 2kHz and 5kHz. They have two honkin' HUGE 12" woofers for bass. When crossed over to my sub at 80Hz, I have those two woofers per speaker playing virtually all content up to 2000Hz. The towers, being older (70's era) are VERY efficient (the specs say 100dB/W at 1m) and I get an incredible amount of "chest slam" from them with my 125W/c Pioneer Elite SC-61 AVR.

Frankly, all that is complete overkill for my basement HT, but I got the towers for $70 on Kijiji, so I think I came out OK. Would a pair of high-quality bookshelf speakers work in my situation? Probably, but not at the price I was able to afford. I just feel that having one 5"-6.5" driver having to be responsible for all content from (say) 60Hz to 5000Hz is asking a lot. IMHO, multiple drivers in a 3-wyay of "2.5-way" configuration will give better overall sound, with higher efficiency to boot.
 
#44 ·
I have a pair of older 3-way towers.... They have two honkin' HUGE 12" woofers for bass.
As do these:


I just feel that having one 5"-6.5" driver having to be responsible for all content from (say) 60Hz to 5000Hz is asking a lot.
So do I. Not all bookshelves are loaded with one 5"-6.5" driver. Technically a bookshelf is a speaker that must be elevated in some fashion to put the high frequency element at ear level. That means even a 2x15" loaded MTM is a bookshelf.
IMHO, multiple drivers... higher efficiency to boot.
That's not the case. Consumer grade woofers that are designed to work to 40Hz and lower have on average 85-88dB/watt sensitivity. Pro grade woofers, as used in the JTR pictured above, which are designed to work only above 60Hz, have on average 95 to 98dB/watt sensitivity.
 
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#49 · (Edited)
@Bill Fitzmaurice
It wasn't my post. But the way it reads to me is that multiple drivers in a speaker increases efficiency, which it usually does when done properly (that is what I have read anyway, but it may not have been correct info).

Here is an example of the math that I have read (this is not my post)...

Thus, the acoustic improvement in efficiency gain at 1 watts, 1 meter is given by:

Efficiency Gain = 10*log (Number of Drivers Driven)

while the sensitivity gain or loss at 2.83v, 1 meter is:

Sensitivity Gain/Loss = 10*log (Nominal Driver Impedance/Nominal Array Impedance)

If the nominal array impedance is less than the nominal driver impedance, the sensitivity increases or is a gain. If the array impedance is greater than the individual driver impedance, then the sensitivity decreases or becomes a loss.

Hence, for the overall system

System Efficiency Gain = SPL + Efficiency Gain

System Sensitivity = SPL + System Efficiency Gain + Sensitivity Gain/Loss

As an example, consider a case wherein we have 4 drivers connected in 2 parallel groups of 2 in series. Each individual driver is 8 ohms impedance and has an SPL of 85 dB. Hence, the efficiency gain, total impedance, and sensitivity gain are:

Efficiency Gain = 10 log 4 = 6.02 dB

Total Impedance of the Combination = 1 / (1/8 + 1/8) = 8 ohms

Sensitivity Gain = 10 log (8/8) = 0 dB

Hence, the sensitivity increase of the array is:

System Sensitivity = 85 + 6.02 + 0 = 91.02 dB.
 
#51 ·
Here is an example of the math that I have read (this is not my post)...
Thus, the acoustic improvement in efficiency gain at 1 watts, 1 meter is given by:
Efficiency Gain = 10*log (Number of Drivers Driven)
while the sensitivity gain or loss at 2.83v, 1 meter is:
Sensitivity Gain/Loss = 10*log (Nominal Driver Impedance/Nominal Array Impedance)
If the nominal array impedance is less than the nominal driver impedance, the sensitivity increases or is a gain. If the array impedance is greater than the individual driver impedance, then the sensitivity decreases or becomes a loss.
Hence, for the overall system
System Efficiency Gain = SPL + Efficiency Gain
System Sensitivity = SPL + System Efficiency Gain + Sensitivity Gain/Loss
As an example, consider a case wherein we have 4 drivers connected in 2 parallel groups of 2 in series. Each individual driver is 8 ohms impedance and has an SPL of 85 dB. Hence, the efficiency gain, total impedance, and sensitivity gain are:
Efficiency Gain = 10 log 4 = 6.02 dB
Total Impedance of the Combination = 1 / (1/8 + 1/8) = 8 ohms
Sensitivity Gain = 10 log (8/8) = 0 dB
Hence, the sensitivity increase of the array is:
System Sensitivity = 85 + 6.02 + 0 = 91.02 dB.
That's an awful long way of stating a very simple calculation. The short and sweet is that for every doubling of driver count parallel wired there's a 6dB increase in voltage sensitivity, while for every series wiring there's a 6dB decrease in voltage sensitivity. Two drivers parallel wired gains 6dB over one. Four drivers parallel wired would gain 12dB, but that usually would give too low an impedance load, so they're wired as parallel/series pairs, with the net voltage sensitivity still 6dB more than one. Double that arrangement again, parallel wired, and you get a net 12dB voltage sensitivity increase. That's how my line arrays are set up.
Note I use voltage sensitivity, not power, because voltage is what counts.
 
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#52 ·
@Bill Fitzmaurice
The point of the long math example is that it breaks down how efficiency and sensitivity are calculated.
The math example shows that there can be an efficiency gain with multiple drivers while you state "that multiple drivers gives higher sensitivity (not efficiency, that's something else entirely)."
 
#53 ·
The math example shows that there can be an efficiency gain with multiple drivers while you state "that multiple drivers gives higher sensitivity (not efficiency, that's something else entirely)."
I didn't address that, but the source is incorrect. The reason we don't consider efficiency is because efficiency is a T/S spec, No, and it's not measured in decibels, it's stated as a percentage figure, acoustical watts output relative to electrical watts input. The spec is so seldom used that most driver manufacturers don't bother to list it. Most speaker modeling programs will calculate it from the other T/S specs, but it's lumped into the 'miscellaneous parameters' that in and of themselves have no influence.
 
#54 ·
Thank you.
 
#56 ·
I have the same question.. Would I be able to tell that much difference going from Def Tech ProMonitor 800 fronts (4.5" woofer with 4.5" bass radiator on top and one inch tweeter) to a lower end tower/floor speaker? I wouldn't want to spend more $500-$600 for a set right now. So, should I just keep what I have for now and upgrade to better towers later like the SVS Prime Towers maybe for $1,000? I'm about to spend $1,000 to upgrade my sub for two SVS PB-1000's. I've only had this setup for about 6 months!


Pioneer Elite VSX-90 7.2 AVR
Def Tech ProMonitor 800 fronts L/R
Def Tech ProCenter 1000
Def Tech ProCinema 600 sides and rears
Martin Logan Dynamo 500 sub
Def Tech ProMount 90 wall mounts
Rocketfish banana plugs
 

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#57 ·
I have the same question.. Would I be able to tell that much difference going from Def Tech ProMonitor 800 fronts (4.5" woofer with 4.5" bass radiator on top and one inch tweeter) to a lower end tower/floor speaker?
Probably not as much as you would going to something like HSU HC-1s in a vertical orientation.
 
#64 ·
I'm usually in the camp of "When using a sub, towers are a waste..."

However, when comparing a 1 woofer bookshelf to a 3 woofer 2-way tower, even given the same sensitivity of each, both 80 Hz crossover, wouldn't the tower provide lower mid-bass distortion due to "spreading the load" over multiple woofers?
 
#69 ·
I see.


For me, after years of playing the speaker merry go round, I tend to prefer towers for stereo playback. There have been a couple of bookshelves that almost pull off full range sound but ultimately fail. For critical listening, I always prefer no subwoofer, regardless if I dial it in just right. It just sounds more cohesive and natural without one.
 
#70 ·
Sure, makes sense. Towers are a form factor of, bigger box with a built-in stand. That lowers its Fs but doesn't make it more efficient at all frequencies or make it handle more power with less distortion.

Still, the average tower probably has more drivers than the average bookshelf. But I take your point... When it comes time to compare the speakers, make sure to compare the factor that contributes to that attribute.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
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