Ask the Editors: Does Speaker-Wire Gauge Matter? - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 251 Old 02-09-2017, 05:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sdmf74 View Post
for gods sake never use lamp cord just terrible advice


The difference between lamp cord and speaker wire is the color of the insulation. That, and the tinning of one conductor when it's done, is to make it easier to identify the conductors for polarity. But even lamp cord has embossed markings on the jacket for that purpose.
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post #182 of 251 Old 02-09-2017, 06:51 AM
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Well that AND any speaker wire as thin or thinner should not be used on quality speakers

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post #183 of 251 Old 02-09-2017, 07:50 AM
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You can get 12 AWG lamp cord if you want, though 18 to 16 AWG is more common. In testing ages ago nobody could tell the difference between 14' of doubled-up 16 AWG zip cord and ~0-AWG silver-tinned copper on most speakers (IIRC the exception was B&W 801; to Apogee ribbons (the old <1 ohm version), Magnepan, Quads, the 16 AWG was fine -- the 801's had pretty large impedance excursions).

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post #184 of 251 Old 02-09-2017, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Yup, I can believe that this nonsense issue comes up again and again. Thank you for your YouTube videos and your aluminum foil wires. I bet someone would pay your $10,000 for that pair. I was involved in a very detailed test by the Boston Audio Society back in 88 on this issue. We used an A/B/X box and a room filled with golden ears. $10,000 Mogami wires vs 16ga hardware store lamp cord. Everyone mostly got close to 50% right and 50% wrong proving there wasn't a difference.
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post #185 of 251 Old 02-09-2017, 03:03 PM
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Somewhat along these lines a long time ago far far away I was assigned a project ( I was working for a subcontractor of NASA ) and what NASA wanted to know was how to repeatedly make a very low resistance electrical contact. We had all sorts of exotic test equipment and could replicate contact resistance to a single digit milliohm. Example of 5 tests in milliohms: 6, 8, 12, 4, 5. We tried everything, copper, gold, aluminum you name it. Best contact we found was what we called the copper "smash". So take two copper wires and smash them together. Like crossing two copper wires in a + and placing that on an anvil and hitting the center of the + with a hammer. That makes a repeatable very low milliohm contact every time.
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post #186 of 251 Old 02-09-2017, 03:08 PM
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Sounds eutectic...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #187 of 251 Old 02-09-2017, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by wilcal View Post
Yup, I can believe that this nonsense issue comes up again and again. Thank you for your YouTube videos and your aluminum foil wires. I bet someone would pay your $10,000 for that pair. I was involved in a very detailed test by the Boston Audio Society back in 88 on this issue. We used an A/B/X box and a room filled with golden ears. $10,000 Mogami wires vs 16ga hardware store lamp cord. Everyone mostly got close to 50% right and 50% wrong proving there wasn't a difference.
There may be little to no difference between wires, but a poorly designed experiment such as you described isn't worth much to support that position. Just using an A/B/X box does not a good experiment make...
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post #188 of 251 Old 02-09-2017, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by wilcal View Post
... I was involved in a very detailed test by the Boston Audio Society back in 88 on this issue. We used an A/B/X box and a room filled with golden ears. $10,000 Mogami wires vs 16ga hardware store lamp cord. Everyone mostly got close to 50% right and 50% wrong proving there wasn't a difference.
Was that the one where Brad Meyer told the audience studies had shown there was a correlation between room lighting and sound perception where just having spotlights pointed at the speakers and keeping the rest of the room dark resulted in people perceiving a more vivid and dramatic sound?

I wonder if having expensive wiring for the lighting would further enhance sound perception by creating more transparent and revealing light waves to illuminate the speakers.
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post #189 of 251 Old 02-09-2017, 03:54 PM
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Speaker Manufacturer Recommendations

A few data points:

B&W recommends .1 ohms maximum total loop resistance for wire runs for their speakers.

Revel recommends .07 ohms maximum total loop resistance for wire runs for their speakers. As examples, this means, 14ft. max for 14 gauge, 22ft. max. for 12 gauge, 34ft. max for 10 gauge, etc.
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post #190 of 251 Old 02-09-2017, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by wilcal View Post
Yup, I can believe that this nonsense issue comes up again and again. Thank you for your YouTube videos and your aluminum foil wires. I bet someone would pay your $10,000 for that pair. I was involved in a very detailed test by the Boston Audio Society back in 88 on this issue. We used an A/B/X box and a room filled with golden ears. $10,000 Mogami wires vs 16ga hardware store lamp cord. Everyone mostly got close to 50% right and 50% wrong proving there wasn't a difference.


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Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
There may be little to no difference between wires, but a poorly designed experiment such as you described isn't worth much to support that position. Just using an A/B/X box does not a good experiment make...
There was a whole lot that went unexpressed in that post by wilcal, with just a skeletal description of the test. Hardly enough basis for warranting a, "poorly designed" conclusion.

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post #191 of 251 Old 02-10-2017, 03:28 PM
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The way I see and hear it.
Speakers have a low ohms impedance. They require lots of current flow (amps).
It is always best to have a good conductor from amp to speakers, to avoid sound level loss (Ohms law).
The less the wires are conductors, the more resistance, inductance, and capacitance increase,
which can change the sound coming out of the speakers.

Most of todays amps have very low output impedance.
Any resistance in the speaker wires can decrease damping on the speaker,
which increase the amount of speaker driver resonances.
This will increase the warm bonky one note sound from the woofer,
and nasal resonances from midrange/tweeters.

The shorter the wire run, the less of resistance, inductance, and capacitance interaction.
12 to 14 awg zip wire has always been good for me for 15 feet.
Longer runs require bigger gauge to reduce the loss.

I would never buy any of the high priced speaker wire stuff out there.
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post #192 of 251 Old 02-10-2017, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
Revel recommends .07 ohms maximum total loop resistance for wire runs for their speakers. As examples, this means, 14ft. max for 14 gauge, 22ft. max. for 12 gauge, 34ft. max for 10 gauge, etc.
I always found that very laughable--Revel forgot they are owned by Harmon International that also owns JBL Professional. The Revel speakers require a much, much higher guage wire than the Monster JBL Pro array boxes because.... uhhhh... yeah. After all, if you blow over a million bucks on a line array system for stadium use--you don't care about sound quality--right?

I'm sure the engineers at Samsung are looking for the marketing guy that threw the "Revel recommends" BS out there. Such is audio though, the same company can make recommendations completely different depending on their perception of the buyer. I'd go with JBL Pro, after all... when it really matters kind of thing.

34 feet max for TEN guage? I would assume 8 AWG for 40 foot runs... My BS meter just pegged...
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post #193 of 251 Old 02-10-2017, 07:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
B&W recommends .1 ohms maximum total loop resistance for wire runs for their speakers.
Considering how low their minimum impedance dips I'd think they'd want to move that decimal point one place to the right.
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post #194 of 251 Old 02-11-2017, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
Considering how low their minimum impedance dips I'd think they'd want to move that decimal point one place to the right.

Sometimes I don't know when you are kidding so if this one of those times please let me know.
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Sometimes I don't know when you are kidding so if this one of those times please let me know.
Half kidding. It would be nice if B&W posted accurate impedance figures, it would save a lot of frustration for many owners.
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post #196 of 251 Old 02-11-2017, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by wilcal View Post
Yup, I can believe that this nonsense issue comes up again and again. Thank you for your YouTube videos and your aluminum foil wires. I bet someone would pay your $10,000 for that pair. I was involved in a very detailed test by the Boston Audio Society back in 88 on this issue. We used an A/B/X box and a room filled with golden ears. $10,000 Mogami wires vs 16ga hardware store lamp cord. Everyone mostly got close to 50% right and 50% wrong proving there wasn't a difference.
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Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
There may be little to no difference between wires, but a poorly designed experiment such as you described isn't worth much to support that position. Just using an A/B/X box does not a good experiment make...
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post
There was a whole lot that went unexpressed in that post by wilcal, with just a skeletal description of the test. Hardly enough basis for warranting a, "poorly designed" conclusion.

At best the test was a contest between two wires. Much of the discussion here concerns differences between different gauges of wire and resulting loop resistance. Without psych powers it is hard to evaluate the unexpressed. It would have been nice if wilcal or yourself had risen to the occasion and defined the goodness of the test and why it is valid.

From the short description several key steps in setting up even a good test are not mentioned, and an item mentioned doesn't lead to confidence in the test. For such a test, which would have to be designed to detect small differences, here are a few steps, there are likely more, that would seem to be good to take. Here is your or wilcal's opportunity to comment on these test requirements and how the 1988 test maps against them.


Each of the subjects in the test had a hearing test.

Each of the subjects it trained to hear differences in sound reproduction.

Music or sound samples or wherever are chosen based past testing or research into which audio selections are appropriate for this task. Each subject was familiarized with these selections.

The response of the speakers for each wire was known at the listening position.

A selection of speakers was used that had differing characteristics such as impedance vs. frequency

The acoustic characteristics of the room were known, reverb time, etc.

Subjects were tested one at a time. The subject could use the A/B/X box to go back and forth as many times as desired. From the brief text it appears that the test was with a group of individuals and it seems doubtful that each individual in turn could switch the box until satisfied. Social pressure would have cut that short. This seem questionable for a test where fine differences at most, are expected. It does make for a better social experience however, hopefully there was beer.

1988 is long ago and far away. Speakers in particular have changed and improved.

Experimenter bias was accounted for.
____________________________

My bias and opinion is that wire size (gauge), that is loop resistance, can make a difference depending on the speaker. Providing an acceptable loop resistance isn't expensive. Certainly differences caused by different gauge wires can be calculated mathematically and measured. Determining if they can be heard or not by humans is unlikely ever to happen given the cost of the relevant experiments and the limited usefulness of the result. All I have to do is use 10 or 12 gauge wire twisted-pair depending on the application, and my requirements are met.

This does seem to be a religious question for some, as are many subjects on this forum.
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post #197 of 251 Old 02-11-2017, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
A few data points:

B&W recommends .1 ohms maximum total loop resistance for wire runs for their speakers.

Revel recommends .07 ohms maximum total loop resistance for wire runs for their speakers. As examples, this means, 14ft. max for 14 gauge, 22ft. max. for 12 gauge, 34ft. max for 10 gauge, etc.
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Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
I always found that very laughable--Revel forgot they are owned by Harmon International that also owns JBL Professional. The Revel speakers require a much, much higher guage wire than the Monster JBL Pro array boxes because.... uhhhh... yeah. After all, if you blow over a million bucks on a line array system for stadium use--you don't care about sound quality--right?

I'm sure the engineers at Samsung are looking for the marketing guy that threw the "Revel recommends" BS out there. Such is audio though, the same company can make recommendations completely different depending on their perception of the buyer. I'd go with JBL Pro, after all... when it really matters kind of thing.

34 feet max for TEN guage? I would assume 8 AWG for 40 foot runs... My BS meter just pegged...

The design requirements for audio systems for stadiums are likely different than for home audio. Even JBL Pro offers several lines of speakers depending on their use such as mixing, theater, etc. This implies different requirements.

You may be satisfied with the audio quality in an arena, but I would find it unacceptable at home. To each his own...

Since you reference the design of arena systems you must have the details at hand. Please provide at least line drawings of a $1M plus arena installation that includes details of the speaker wire runs, speaker impedances, etc. Please also provide the requirements that were used to develop the design. This will allow comparison between a home audio system and an arena system.

In the audio realm Samsung seems to be most noted for the audio from their TV's, sound bars and perhaps 5.1 in a box systems. Again, that's not what I'm shooting for in audio quality. Samsung's existing products make it a bit scary to contemplate what they will do with Harman; auto, JBL, Revel, Crown, ML, the whole group. Seems that I read that Samsung has built a couple anechoic chambers in L.A. and hired a few Harman people, so there is hope.
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post #198 of 251 Old 02-11-2017, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
The difference between lamp cord and speaker wire is the color of the insulation. That, and the tinning of one conductor when it's done, is to make it easier to identify the conductors for polarity. But even lamp cord has embossed markings on the jacket for that purpose.
I don't have a link, but common Copper wire is 99% pure. Pure Copper Wire is about 99.9% pure. Pure OFC Copper wire is about 99.99% pure. The difference is actually tiny.

But, 14ga OFC Speaker Wire is reasonably cheap, there is no reason not to get it.

However, in times of desperation, or in a pinch, common Copper Hardware Store 14ga Lamp Cord is fine. All the things that might matter in buying Hardware Store Copper Wire, only matter in the long run. Short term, you are not going to hear a difference.

But...again... 14ga OFC Speaker Wire is readily available and reasonably cheap, so if you can ... definitely do.

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post #199 of 251 Old 02-12-2017, 07:42 AM
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Could you please clarify what long-term detriments you envision from using "Hardware Store Copper Wire"?

Curious - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #200 of 251 Old 02-12-2017, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
The design requirements for audio systems for stadiums are likely different than for home audio. Even JBL Pro offers several lines of speakers depending on their use such as mixing, theater, etc. This implies different requirements.

You may be satisfied with the audio quality in an arena, but I would find it unacceptable at home. To each his own...

Since you reference the design of arena systems you must have the details at hand. Please provide at least line drawings of a $1M plus arena installation that includes details of the speaker wire runs, speaker impedances, etc. Please also provide the requirements that were used to develop the design. This will allow comparison between a home audio system and an arena system.

In the audio realm Samsung seems to be most noted for the audio from their TV's, sound bars and perhaps 5.1 in a box systems. Again, that's not what I'm shooting for in audio quality. Samsung's existing products make it a bit scary to contemplate what they will do with Harman; auto, JBL, Revel, Crown, ML, the whole group. Seems that I read that Samsung has built a couple anechoic chambers in L.A. and hired a few Harman people, so there is hope.
Hmmmm,
The laws of electricity have not changed since 1988, neither has human hearing. Speaker design for the most part has not changed since 1988. Sure, some of the stuff has improved and aside from plasma tweeters...there is nothing actually new in consumer audio. Cones, domes, concentric drivers, ribbons and AMTs have been available since the 1970's and before. The horn profiles have changed and in pro audio, line arrays, horns, synergy horns and tapped horns have shown up but the guage of wiring has remained the same.

Some materials from neo magnets and different composites have updated some of the drivers but that has nothing to do with what cables you need. McIntosh did a study in the late 70's/early 80's and it does not matter as long as you get the correct guage of wire. It does not matter, it has never mattered and until the human hearing drastically improves--it won't matter.

What I like about pro audio is the "put up or shut up" way it operates. We are not talking about some person playing a tune at low volume in a room that is temp controlled and never moves. This stuff moves constantly with massive power amps, power distribution, testing, calibration and setup--then rip it down and haul it a thousand miles and start again sort of thing. I watched a video detailing the design of the Meyer system used by Metallica some years back, very distinct with 64 massive subwoofers flying 30 feet directly over the drummers head. They did it that way to improve the sound quality and dispersion over the arena and it was done on paper (actually a napkin) and it was ready 15 minutes before the first show. The system cost 8 figures--the band believed the guy could get it right and payed for it... and it worked.

The 10 to 20 million dollar PA system first fired up the day of the show, they did a calibration on it then played it's first song. Infected Mushroom (EDM) roared through the thing and the band ran around the arena listening and measuring for dead spot. No dead spots and they were getting 136 to 140dB for sub bass They used Infected Mushroom because it uses square waves for bass frequencies and is completely full range so they could strain the system beyond actual concert use. After that, they took their positions and the first people stormed into the arena and Metallica was on tour the next few years. How much does it cost to haul well over 10 tons of gear around the world for two years? Set up, tear down and transport costs are staggering so a wild guess of at least 50 million. The sound quality was incredible and beat out the U2 360 tour easily--the calculations started on a napkin.

So poo-poo and dismiss pro sound/arena sound and THX/IMAX systems if you like. The Metallica TM system was an idea pondered by one guy in the 1980's. After all "real" audio is for the home with such drastic and constant improvements something as simple and known as the laws of electricity change yearly--need to do more, more and yet again MORE testing! None of that put the wire on a scope, run signals through it and read the distortion either... no plug in measured impedance curves, plug in the guage of the wire along with the length and get a result. Using science and math to calculate something is old school, we need blind ABX testing to prove yet again things that are designed with science and math.

As far as Samsung being unable to make decent sound equipment, ponder what you are saying. Think about the technology required to build sound equipment then think about what Samsung does and manufactures. Samsung manufactures their own parts be they processors, memory chips, boards, displays and so on. They don't have to wait around for a new DAC, transistor, processor or anything--they can build what they want, when they want and not let the world know until they release it. They are used to a 6 month to 1 year window with tech, the glacial speed of the audio industry will be easy. Not only does Samsung make electronics parts, they also build skyscrapers (Birj Kalifa in Dubai) manufacture tanks for the S. Korean Army, make massive LPG tanker ships, commercial trucks and navigation systems. 12% of South Korea's GNP is Samsung--I'm sure audio won't confuse them too much.

But back to a piece of wire--since human hearing has not changed recently, wire can be measured and a speaker's impedance can be measured, the results can be calculated. No reason to blind ABX test every speaker that comes down the pipe because it is "new". The test results from the past 4 decades of testing are still valid so run the calculations and be done with it.

I did blind ABX testing on wires, CD players and amps 26 years ago (not double blind) Could not tell the difference so my ears matched the math. These days, my hearing has not improved so I won't waste my time retesting etc... the days of hearing the high pitched ringing in CRT flyback transformers are gone

So relax, throw some 12 guage on your speakers if it makes you feel better then use the money to purchase more music, movies, acoustic panels--heck, send it to Scott so he can purchase some more testing gear for the site! (shameless plug) Poor Scott spends all his money keeping AVS going, he can't afford a razor. Hook him up! If it is all about the sound quality, focus on that and win.
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post #201 of 251 Old 02-12-2017, 08:56 AM
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There may be little to no difference between wires, but a poorly designed experiment such as you described isn't worth much to support that position. Just using an A/B/X box does not a good experiment make...
I find it hysterically funny when audiophiles claim an abx test is worthless. Their ears are much better
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I find it hysterically funny when audiophiles claim an abx test is worthless. Their ears are much better

Poorly designed or undocumented A/B/X tests are worth very little and may have negative value if they mislead. Considering every test that uses an A/B/X box as high quality is frankly silly. Are you really serious?

What "audiophiles" claim is irrelevant. You are just throwing in a word, and a word that frankly has no hard and fast meaning.
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post #203 of 251 Old 02-12-2017, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
Considering how low their minimum impedance dips I'd think they'd want to move that decimal point one place to the right.
RE: Impedance Dip, some B&W Speaker dip down to about 3.4 ohms but as a percentage, 0.1 ohm is still just under 3% which is fine.

I should add that at the rate 8 ohm impedance, the loss in the above circumstance would be closer to 1.25%. Very Low.

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Darren Tebo is getting a new AVR and wonders if he needs to be concerned about speaker-wire gauge when connecting it to his Klipsch speakers.

http://www.avsforum.com/ask-editors-...-gauge-matter/

Gee - I bet you had no idea you'd start a pissing contest with this post!

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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Could you please clarify what long-term detriments you envision from using "Hardware Store Copper Wire"?

Curious - Don
Hardware store Lamp Cord, tends to corrode faster, but faster is still pretty slow.

As has been said, you can use Hardware Store wire in a pinch, it will works fine. But, common Speaker Wire is readily available and reasonably cheap. There is no need to skimp if you don't have to.

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post #207 of 251 Old 02-12-2017, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
Hmmmm,
The laws of electricity have not changed since 1988, neither has human hearing. Speaker design for the most part has not changed since 1988. Sure, some of the stuff has improved and aside from plasma tweeters...there is nothing actually new in consumer audio. Cones, domes, concentric drivers, ribbons and AMTs have been available since the 1970's and before. The horn profiles have changed and in pro audio, line arrays, horns, synergy horns and tapped horns have shown up but the guage of wiring has remained the same.

Some materials from neo magnets and different composites have updated some of the drivers but that has nothing to do with what cables you need. McIntosh did a study in the late 70's/early 80's and it does not matter as long as you get the correct guage of wire. It does not matter, it has never mattered and until the human hearing drastically improves--it won't matter.

What I like about pro audio is the "put up or shut up" way it operates. We are not talking about some person playing a tune at low volume in a room that is temp controlled and never moves. This stuff moves constantly with massive power amps, power distribution, testing, calibration and setup--then rip it down and haul it a thousand miles and start again sort of thing. I watched a video detailing the design of the Meyer system used by Metallica some years back, very distinct with 64 massive subwoofers flying 30 feet directly over the drummers head. They did it that way to improve the sound quality and dispersion over the arena and it was done on paper (actually a napkin) and it was ready 15 minutes before the first show. The system cost 8 figures--the band believed the guy could get it right and payed for it... and it worked.

The 10 to 20 million dollar PA system first fired up the day of the show, they did a calibration on it then played it's first song. Infected Mushroom (EDM) roared through the thing and the band ran around the arena listening and measuring for dead spot. No dead spots and they were getting 136 to 140dB for sub bass They used Infected Mushroom because it uses square waves for bass frequencies and is completely full range so they could strain the system beyond actual concert use. After that, they took their positions and the first people stormed into the arena and Metallica was on tour the next few years. How much does it cost to haul well over 10 tons of gear around the world for two years? Set up, tear down and transport costs are staggering so a wild guess of at least 50 million. The sound quality was incredible and beat out the U2 360 tour easily--the calculations started on a napkin.

So poo-poo and dismiss pro sound/arena sound and THX/IMAX systems if you like. The Metallica TM system was an idea pondered by one guy in the 1980's. After all "real" audio is for the home with such drastic and constant improvements something as simple and known as the laws of electricity change yearly--need to do more, more and yet again MORE testing! None of that put the wire on a scope, run signals through it and read the distortion either... no plug in measured impedance curves, plug in the guage of the wire along with the length and get a result. Using science and math to calculate something is old school, we need blind ABX testing to prove yet again things that are designed with science and math.

As far as Samsung being unable to make decent sound equipment, ponder what you are saying. Think about the technology required to build sound equipment then think about what Samsung does and manufactures. Samsung manufactures their own parts be they processors, memory chips, boards, displays and so on. They don't have to wait around for a new DAC, transistor, processor or anything--they can build what they want, when they want and not let the world know until they release it. They are used to a 6 month to 1 year window with tech, the glacial speed of the audio industry will be easy. Not only does Samsung make electronics parts, they also build skyscrapers (Birj Kalifa in Dubai) manufacture tanks for the S. Korean Army, make massive LPG tanker ships, commercial trucks and navigation systems. 12% of South Korea's GNP is Samsung--I'm sure audio won't confuse them too much.

But back to a piece of wire--since human hearing has not changed recently, wire can be measured and a speaker's impedance can be measured, the results can be calculated. No reason to blind ABX test every speaker that comes down the pipe because it is "new". The test results from the past 4 decades of testing are still valid so run the calculations and be done with it.

I did blind ABX testing on wires, CD players and amps 26 years ago (not double blind) Could not tell the difference so my ears matched the math. These days, my hearing has not improved so I won't waste my time retesting etc... the days of hearing the high pitched ringing in CRT flyback transformers are gone

So relax, throw some 12 guage on your speakers if it makes you feel better then use the money to purchase more music, movies, acoustic panels--heck, send it to Scott so he can purchase some more testing gear for the site! (shameless plug) Poor Scott spends all his money keeping AVS going, he can't afford a razor. Hook him up! If it is all about the sound quality, focus on that and win.

You haven't supplied the design details of the arena system or you don't have them. That isn't helpful. All of this, "wow that's amazing" verbiage doesn't address the issue. If the design details aren't available then a discussion of impendences or wire or location of amplifiers or the specifics of any of this aren't available. That at least part of the design work was done on a napkin doesn't build confidence. You haven't supplied the details of the design you have just offered amazement that a lot of money has been spent, and that it is possible to suspend objects 30 feet in the air. The main characteristic of the arena system seems to be that it has a high SPL. 136 to 140dB SPL to the audience is impressive, but doesn't relate to home usage. As an aside, do you have documentation of that level. Certainly SPL's at that level will cause almost immediate hearing damage. The logistics of installing and moving such systems is interesting, but again doesn't relate to home audio systems.

Samsung has demonstrated leadership in many areas of technology. Certainly in semiconductors their flash memory advances have been remarkable and Apple has to make use of their semiconductor foundry capabilities which is putting money in a competitor's pocket. This demonstrated excellence and the examples you sight are all interesting, but rather irrelevant to the question of what direction Samsung will take Harman.

Will Samsung continue to encourage the excellence that is shown by JBL Pro and Revel or are they interested in the much higher sales volumes in the auto audio sector? So far Samsung seems to have emphasized volume and lower end consumer audio products. The question is which of Harman's markets Samsung will emphasize. Clearly Samsung has the financial resources to pursue those markets once a direction is chosen. Samsung has also demonstrated the ability to manage high technology businesses. It does seem unlikely that Samsung will redirect the efforts of their semiconductor experts or skyscraper construction folks to building loudspeakers. You have to understand that from a business standpoint that would be very inefficient.

Feel-free to only purchase speakers that were designed and manufactured using only pre-1989 methods and technology. This limitation includes pre-1989 CAD and CAM tools and testing tools and pre-1989 computer capabilities. It also includes pre-1989 materials processing technologies. Are you really serious when you claim that there have been no advances in any of these areas?

It's a shame that your suppliers can't use tools from this company nor much or all of the results of Dr. Klippel's work:

https://www.klippel.de/company/about-us.html

If Audio Precision was in business in 1988 their products were far behind their current products.

The work done by Floyd Toole and others at Harman isn't available to those who determine the requirements for the speakers you will buy.

Since you seem to love bass, what sort of subwoofers were available pre-1989. Will they satisfy your needs?

What was the best Intel processor pre-1989 or the latest version of Windows? Mac's were very different computers. Available computing power drastically affects the capabilities of the design tools that your suppliers can use. If your suppliers can afford an IBM mainframe, a DEC VAX or perhaps a CRAY they can get some small part of the capabilities that are available today. Of course your vendors can't use the Internet to get ideas, or cellphones to communicate.

All areas of technology, including loudspeaker technology have made huge progress since 1988. Feel-free to stay with the products produced in 1988 if you wish.
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post #208 of 251 Old 02-12-2017, 01:24 PM
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Scientifically controlled A/B/X tests have been performed and documented. A/B/X demonstrations done for groups such as the Boston Audio Society are just that -- demonstrations. They don't pretend to be scientifically controlled to the degree of the ones performed in a laboratory setting. It's a red herring to imply that the Boston Audio Society A/B/X demonstration does anything to diminish the results of the actual scientifically contolled A/B/X tests.
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post #209 of 251 Old 02-12-2017, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
I don't have a link, but common Copper wire is 99% pure. Pure Copper Wire is about 99.9% pure. Pure OFC Copper wire is about 99.99% pure. The difference is actually tiny.
Here, and I've asked at two cable factories I've visited, the answer from the resident engineer was the raw copper they got from the foundry was four nines. From that they made everything from speaker cable to 132kV single phase 1200mm2*. I doubt it will be much different in any first world country like the US. OFC copper is just marketing rubbish to sucker in the audiophools.

* The cable the girl is holding above looks like armoured 33kV 3 phase, about 400mm2.
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post #210 of 251 Old 02-12-2017, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
Hardware store Lamp Cord, tends to corrode faster, but faster is still pretty slow.
<elided>
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Hmmm... Does not match my experience but there are so many variables I am not surprised. YMMV, indeed.

Thanks - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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