Ask the Editors: Can I Use Definitive Technology BP9040 Towers with a Subwoofer - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 50 Old 02-14-2017, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by GalvatronType_R View Post
I have the previous gen 8060 towers along with a Klipsch RW12D sub (see signature for the complete rundown).

While the built in subs in the 8060s are decent on their own, they don't compare to a standalone sub. Setting the towers to large while setting the LPF of the Klipsch sub to 80 hz yields great sound quality.

Oh and one other thing. I just recently replaced an Onkyo TX NR3008 with a Marantz SR7010 for 5.1.2 using two ceiling bounce DT A60s on top of the 8060s. While there is some overhead ambiance, the A60s are easily one of the worst AV purchases I've ever made, they are that terrible. I've heard Atmos/DTS:X with two and four overhead speakers and they completely outclass every two and four ceiling bounce speaker array I've ever heard.

So if anyone is considering a 5.1.2 system using two front ceiling bounce speakers, don't bother because it doesn't make that big a difference.
Yep I completely agree. I have the A90s on top of my 9020s and while I know they are an improvement over the A60s there is no substitute for speakers mounted in or on the ceiling. IMHO. They are better than nothing if in or on ceiling is not feasible.

I bought 4 Def Tech Pro Monitor 800's for my overheads and it sounds much better than the Dolby Atmos enabled upward firing speakers. Now just need to get rid of the A90's.
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post #32 of 50 Old 02-15-2017, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by sigpig View Post
Like another member has mentioned, those aren't really "subwoofers" in the DT towers, but are actually powered woofers. I can see why something like that would be good for strictly stereo listening, since your receiver won't have to put any power into the woofers, it will be able to drive the mids and tweeters more efficiently.
Well, maybe for this particular set of tower speakers, the "subwoofers" built into them aren't quite the beasts compared the ones we can get in a standalone true subwoofer. However, I did want to bring up a more general topic of active tower speakers overall that have the woofers built in that need to be plugged into the wall. I read an article about the GoldenEar Triton Reference towers that can dig pretty deep (down to at least 20hz) and have some juice to the internal amplifier at 1,800 watts (I think it's dynamic peak, and not RMS). I guess my question would be: Would you really need external standalone subwoofers if you already have active tower speakers with beefy bass & amplification built into them? Would you or how much would you benefit with adding external standalone subwoofers?
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post #33 of 50 Old 02-15-2017, 09:31 AM
 
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Would you really need external standalone subwoofers if you already have active tower speakers with beefy bass & amplification built into them?
You may not need them from the standpoint of extension or output, but you may from the standpoint of room response, since you don't have the option of separately placing the mains and subs where each gives the best result. That ability is 90% of the reason for having separate mains and subs.
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post #34 of 50 Old 02-15-2017, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
You may not need them from the standpoint of extension or output, but you may from the standpoint of room response, since you don't have the option of separately placing the mains and subs where each gives the best result. That ability is 90% of the reason for having separate mains and subs.
Agreed, it's a big part.

I was kind of surprised at the earlier post that claimed that room placements/interactions were overrated.

This stuff depends a lot on the room. It's better for people to not assume their experiences with bass will apply to other rooms.
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post #35 of 50 Old 02-15-2017, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Agreed, it's a big part.

I was kind of surprised at the earlier post that claimed that room placements/interactions were overrated.

This stuff depends a lot on the room. It's better for people to not assume their experiences with bass will apply to other rooms.
That's not what I said (or what I meant to say). Sorry if I wasn't clear😀, What I meant was that the benefit of having the flexibility to put a large subwoofer wherever it gives the best room response is "overated" in the sense that furniture layout, room design, WAF etc often create significant limitations on where a large subwoofer can actually be placed. Of course, if you are starting from scratch, with a dedicated room, with none of the listed constraints on placement, then my point doesn't really apply, but how many of us are that lucky.

Also, the idea that you have to choose either optimum subwoofer placement or towers with an integrated powered woofer is a false choice. You can buy Def Tech or GoldenEar towers with built in powered woofers AND put an external subwoofer wherever you want, with the added benefit of spreading the bass around multiple room locations, which I believe has been established to smooth out low frequency peaks and nulls.
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post #36 of 50 Old 02-15-2017, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by alfa1 View Post
That's not what I said (or what I meant to say). Sorry if I wasn't clear😀, What I meant was that the benefit of having the flexibility to put a large subwoofer wherever it gives the best room response is "overated" in the sense that furniture layout, room design, WAF etc often create significant limitations on where a large subwoofer can actually be placed. Of course, if you are starting from scratch, with a dedicated room, with none of the listed constraints on placement, then my point doesn't really apply, but how many of us are that lucky.

Also, the idea that you have to choose either optimum subwoofer placement or towers with an integrated powered woofer is a false choice. You can buy Def Tech or GoldenEar towers with built in powered woofers AND put an external subwoofer wherever you want, with the added benefit of spreading the bass around multiple room locations, which I believe has been established to smooth out low frequency peaks and nulls.
10-4. Sorry.
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post #37 of 50 Old 02-15-2017, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by alfa1 View Post
That's not what I said (or what I meant to say). Sorry if I wasn't clear😀, What I meant was that the benefit of having the flexibility to put a large subwoofer wherever it gives the best room response is "overated" in the sense that furniture layout, room design, WAF etc often create significant limitations on where a large subwoofer can actually be placed. Of course, if you are starting from scratch, with a dedicated room, with none of the listed constraints on placement, then my point doesn't really apply, but how many of us are that lucky.

Also, the idea that you have to choose either optimum subwoofer placement or towers with an integrated powered woofer is a false choice. You can buy Def Tech or GoldenEar towers with built in powered woofers AND put an external subwoofer wherever you want, with the added benefit of spreading the bass around multiple room locations, which I believe has been established to smooth out low frequency peaks and nulls.
yes, you are correct, we sometimes have to make compromises. However, where a sub is going to sound best in a room is RARELY where the speaker is going to sound best in a room!

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post #38 of 50 Old 02-15-2017, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
You may not need them from the standpoint of extension or output, but you may from the standpoint of room response, since you don't have the option of separately placing the mains and subs where each gives the best result. That ability is 90% of the reason for having separate mains and subs.
Yeah, that sounds about right. I guess you can never have too many subwoofers, lol. There's always a reason to have one more, LOL!
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post #39 of 50 Old 02-15-2017, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bruckheimer Fan View Post
Well, maybe for this particular set of tower speakers, the "subwoofers" built into them aren't quite the beasts compared the ones we can get in a standalone true subwoofer. However, I did want to bring up a more general topic of active tower speakers overall that have the woofers built in that need to be plugged into the wall. I read an article about the GoldenEar Triton Reference towers that can dig pretty deep (down to at least 20hz) and have some juice to the internal amplifier at 1,800 watts (I think it's dynamic peak, and not RMS). I guess my question would be: Would you really need external standalone subwoofers if you already have active tower speakers with beefy bass & amplification built into them? Would you or how much would you benefit with adding external standalone subwoofers?
the triton ones are exceptional

my 10" powered towers do great stand alone, but adding a sub gave new life to movies and some music that digs deeper then the towers can

my towers measure at 39hz +/- 3db

my sub measures 17-260 hz +/- 3 db
17-39hz, that's quite a difference

Audyssey is a great start, but not always a great finish.
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Originally Posted by littlefoott View Post
the triton ones are exceptional

my 10" powered towers do great stand alone, but adding a sub gave new life to movies and some music that digs deeper then the towers can

my towers measure at 39hz +/- 3db

my sub measures 17-260 hz +/- 3 db
17-39hz, that's quite a difference
Cool, how do you set up and wire up your speakers? Do you use a y-splitter for the subwoofer channel in your receiver/pre-pro and then split them between your Goldenear T1s and the SVS?
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post #41 of 50 Old 02-15-2017, 07:50 PM
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I have def tech 8060's run with straight speaker wire

Audyssey is a great start, but not always a great finish.
Receiver:Marantz SR-5010, Speakers:Def Tech ST-8060 towers, CS-8040 center, SR-8040 surrounds, Pro Monitor 1000 heights
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post #42 of 50 Old 02-16-2017, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Jerry Bruckheimer Fan View Post
Yeah, that sounds about right. I guess you can never have too many subwoofers, lol. There's always a reason to have one more, LOL!
yeah...as long as they are in phase.
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post #43 of 50 Old 02-16-2017, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalvatronType_R View Post
I have the previous gen 8060 towers along with a Klipsch RW12D sub (see signature for the complete rundown).

While the built in subs in the 8060s are decent on their own, they don't compare to a standalone sub. Setting the towers to large while setting the LPF of the Klipsch sub to 80 hz yields great sound quality.

Oh and one other thing. I just recently replaced an Onkyo TX NR3008 with a Marantz SR7010 for 5.1.2 using two ceiling bounce DT A60s on top of the 8060s. While there is some overhead ambiance, the A60s are easily one of the worst AV purchases I've ever made, they are that terrible. I've heard Atmos/DTS:X with two and four overhead speakers and they completely outclass every two and four ceiling bounce speaker array I've ever heard.

So if anyone is considering a 5.1.2 system using two front ceiling bounce speakers, don't bother because it doesn't make that big a difference.
I have a 5.1.2 setup and can agree. I do notice the effect, but nothing too extreme and it is mostly rain where you hear the difference. Fortunately, I have a pair of Pioneer SP-T22A's and they were under $100 for the pair.
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post #44 of 50 Old 02-16-2017, 06:53 PM
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I love the full range speakers, the woofers really do help fill the room. I've messed around with my speakers for the last two weeks and no matter what I do I can't set them to small and make them sound better with just my SVS 12inch sub compared to having all three (4 if you count the center speaker) going at the sametime. This just really fills the room. I have my L/R/C all set to 40hz (which for the BP9020's /CS9060 is perfect because at 36hz is where you hear that dropoff) and my SVS I have set to 80hz. That 40hz buffer is where I really hear the bass fill the room. With just my SVS pushing the bass, even after a sub crawl I can still tell where in the room the bass is coming from.

I also vouch that the A90's were horrible. Maybe 1 point in a movie could I tell that they were doing something with atmos that was noticeable. I ended up going around and found a place with atmos setup with ceiling speakers...and it was amazing. Less then a week and I will have a 5.1.4 system in full effect.

I'd like to add that my experience with audio is limited to the last two months. I have tested and returned around 20 speakers thou (If it wasnt for the fact I dropped like 10 grand (with tv) into a home theater my retailer would hate me) and have learned a ton (while having fun). This setup has made me extremely happy.
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post #45 of 50 Old 02-16-2017, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Kumate View Post
I love the full range speakers, the woofers really do help fill the room. I've messed around with my speakers for the last two weeks and no matter what I do I can't set them to small and make them sound better with just my SVS 12inch sub compared to having all three (4 if you count the center speaker) going at the sametime. This just really fills the room. I have my L/R/C all set to 40hz (which for the BP9020's /CS9060 is perfect because at 36hz is where you hear that dropoff) and my SVS I have set to 80hz. That 40hz buffer is where I really hear the bass fill the room. With just my SVS pushing the bass, even after a sub crawl I can still tell where in the room the bass is coming from.

I also vouch that the A90's were horrible. Maybe 1 point in a movie could I tell that they were doing something with atmos that was noticeable. I ended up going around and found a place with atmos setup with ceiling speakers...and it was amazing. Less then a week and I will have a 5.1.4 system in full effect.

I'd like to add that my experience with audio is limited to the last two months. I have tested and returned around 20 speakers thou (If it wasnt for the fact I dropped like 10 grand (with tv) into a home theater my retailer would hate me) and have learned a ton (while having fun). This setup has made me extremely happy.
Your Sub/LFE setting is not a crossover, it's a LPF (Low Pass Filter = Low CAN Pass) it really should be set at 120hz, you're cutting a lot of LFE frequency with it set to 80Hz.
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post #46 of 50 Old 02-17-2017, 12:33 AM
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yeah...as long as they are in phase.
not 100 % of the time
there are sub placement methods that use one out of phase sub to cancel the sound wave of the other after it has passed through the mlp

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post #47 of 50 Old 02-17-2017, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
yeah...as long as they are in phase.
not 100 % of the time
there are sub placement methods that use one out of phase sub to cancel the sound wave of the other after it has passed through the mlp
Riiight. For all you people using these speakers in a double bass array, please disregard my in-phase comment.
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I have Polk RT2000P mains which have dual 8" woofers powered by 200 watt amps. I cross them at 35hz (-3db point is just below that). I don't understand why there is any controversy about this anyway. Weather you have bookshelf speakers that you have to cross at 100hz, or unpowered towers you have to cross at 60hz or powered towers you have to cross at 40hz, it's all the same as long as you cross them slightly above the -3db point. My next speakers are likely to be Goldenear Ones. These have 1600 watt amps and a large surface area, so they will likely cross even lower or maybe even handle running as large. Run what you like, but blend (cross) them properly to get a seamless frequency sweep and you will be happy.

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post #49 of 50 Old 02-17-2017, 08:31 PM
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I have Polk RT2000P mains which have dual 8" woofers powered by 200 watt amps. I cross them at 35hz (-3db point is just below that). I don't understand why there is any controversy about this anyway. Weather you have bookshelf speakers that you have to cross at 100hz, or unpowered towers you have to cross at 60hz or powered towers you have to cross at 40hz, it's all the same as long as you cross them slightly above the -3db point. My next speakers are likely to be Goldenear Ones. These have 1600 watt amps and a large surface area, so they will likely cross even lower or maybe even handle running as large. Run what you like, but blend (cross) them properly to get a seamless frequency sweep and you will be happy.
No argument with any of that.

The only controversy is whether people should buy speakers with built-in subs if they already have a sub.

And I think the answer is...it's debatable. (Nothing so straightforward as a yes or no.)
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post #50 of 50 Old 02-17-2017, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Clark View Post
I have Polk RT2000P mains which have dual 8" woofers powered by 200 watt amps. I cross them at 35hz (-3db point is just below that). I don't understand why there is any controversy about this anyway. Weather you have bookshelf speakers that you have to cross at 100hz, or unpowered towers you have to cross at 60hz or powered towers you have to cross at 40hz, it's all the same as long as you cross them slightly above the -3db point. My next speakers are likely to be Goldenear Ones. These have 1600 watt amps and a large surface area, so they will likely cross even lower or maybe even handle running as large. Run what you like, but blend (cross) them properly to get a seamless frequency sweep and you will be happy.
Honestly, the controversy comes from the latest research that supports the idea that, no matter what the range of your main speakers you should always let your "properly placed" Sub(s) play everything below 80hz and up depending in the limitations of your mains.

Me personally, I like the old school idea of: if the mixer placed "those sounds" in "those specific channels" and you have the speakers to properly recreate those sounds, then by all means... Do So.

But that's just me, and I'm stubborn like that....

*Warning* None of my suggestions, ideas or even thoughts have any WAF, in any way!
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