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Bookshelf & Center Channel.....Need Advice

3K views 71 replies 13 participants last post by  mpk1970 
#1 · (Edited)
Bookshelf & Center Channel....Total Budget $800

I'm putting together my new improved HT
Recently bought:

Got 2 HSU VTF2.5 subs
Denon receiver forgot model but $500
Definitive Technology AW6500 for outdoor
Elac B6 Debut bookshelf

I'm having doubts on the Elac bookshelfs(haven't set them up or listened to them) but I keep reading on these forums about HSU speakers. Dont want to spend more than $400 on Books plus I need to add Center Channel.
I have no idea on Center Channel. Also Emotiva has my attention for their speakers.


Plan A
Would you keep the ELAC B6s and simply add Center Channel , IF SO Any recommendations for under $400? I've read about some but it all gets confusing

Plan B
Return Elac B6s
Buy HSU HB1 MK2 (pair,book) + HC1 MK2 (center) Total package $519

Plan C
Return Elac B6s
Buy Emotiva Airmotiv B1 (book) + Emotiva Center C1


Has anybody hear the HSU vs. Emotiva? What about data points between the two? Seems like everybody hot on HSU but really haven't seen anybody on forums that heard the HSU's or even have them.

Recommendations? All ideas welcomed

I keep spending more & more on this dang setup....I'm way past my budget already crap
 
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#3 ·
I'm having doubts on the Elac bookshelfs. Dont want to spend more than $400 on Books plus I need to add Center Channel. I have no idea on Center Channel
What is it about the ELACs that are giving you doubts? Are they too "dark" sounding, like not enough clarity and treble detail or energy?

The Hsu speakers are a good option, though if you wanted to save almost $200 you could always go with the EMPTek R5Bi, 3 across the front would be just $337 shipped.
 
#4 ·
I haven't even hooked up or listened to the Elac's. I'm just going thru the forums threads see the HSU books & Center being talked about.
Kinda interested in Emotiva as well.
 
#7 ·
Don't understand the extreme excitement to these brands you listed. ELAC? Hsu? Emotiva

So many better options out there. Thousands of brands. Kef q300 are cheap. Much better than those and actually have a resale value. Energy rc10 so much better. Great value. For $500 you could definitive clr2000 and now your blowing away the speakers you listed.

There are a ton more too
 
#9 ·
You're off to a very good start with the HSU subs and not over spending on the AVR.
There is really nothing wrong with the Elac speakers. Every brand has it's fans and detractors. You should hook them up and determine for yourself if like or dislike the way they sound.
 
#11 ·
Herein lies the problem, I could hook up anything and my ears definitely not trained so I would have no idea what sounds good and has the technical specs to evaluate if they good.
So many guys on this board like you and others are a tremendous resource and have the expertise that I quite frankly don't have and it would take me months and months to be on the same level.
Hence, why I go straight to the source= YOU GUYS for help. :laugh:
 
#14 · (Edited)
I heard Airmotiv towers and Elac B5's side by side at an audio show, preferred the B5's, they're great for the money. If "dark" sounding means not too bright and fatiguing, so be it. I found them quite clear and accurate. If you have them there with you, you really need to hear them. What about returning the B6's and getting 2 pairs of the B5's, which I've heard are a better balanced speaker. Then you could use 3 of them for LCR and have a spare. The extra little bit of bass from the B6's doesn't really matter when you have subs, I'd rather have the better balanced speaker. The B5's are the ones Andrew Jones did the initial research and tuning on.
 
#16 · (Edited)
In re Elac B6s, upper midrange and treble is a little etched until some break-in miles accumulate. I came very close to sending them back the first day I had them. I was a little annoyed at the break-in time it took, but was reminded of that when I bought my brother a set for xmas. We set them here on speaker selector B on identical stands (my other set of FS52) right next to my existing ones to give them a whirl. Ouch. Grain and dryness (sorta the same thing actually) in upper midrange and lower treble. They came around for him after 100 hours or so of use.

They also image quite fine presuming that they're not used as a bookshelf and instead stand mounts a ways out in to the room. I definitely, positively would never ever use a center with them.


 
#18 ·
In re Elac B6s, upper midrange and treble is a little etched until some break-in miles accumulate. I came very close to sending them back the first day I had them. I was a little annoyed at the break-in time it took, but was reminded of that when I bought my brother a set for xmas. We set them here on speaker selector B on identical stands (my other set of FS52) right next to my existing ones to give them a whirl. Ouch. Grain and dryness (sorta the same thing actually) in upper midrange and lower treble. They came around for him after 100 hours or so of use.


They also image quite fine presuming that they're not used as a bookshelf and instead stand mounts a ways out in to the room. I definitely, positively would never ever use a center with them.
Interesting and good feedback. Why no center?
 
#19 ·
Gosh dam it....this stuff can drive a person crazy. 2 hours research last nite, 2 this a.m.
About ready to send all this crap back so dam frustrating trying to find answers....that's why I rely on YOU GUYS :mad: :mad:

Seems like I take 2 steps forward 1 step back

Now considering simply pair of HSU CCB with NO Center---Thoughts?
 
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#23 ·
Gosh dam it....this stuff can drive a person crazy. 2 hours research last nite, 2 this a.m.
About ready to send all this crap back so dam frustrating trying to find answers....
Don't overthink it. Any number of speakers can make you very happy, there is no one "perfect" speaker. There are however some good bets and some less-good bets.

An excellent example of a "good bet" IMO would be the Ascend 340SE ... their main drawback is plain Jane looks if that matters to you, otherwise for $500/pair I wager that most people would be very happy with their clarity, natural/neutral presentation, and easy to power room-filling sensitivity.

Another good example would be the EMPTek R5Bi at $225/pair, which unlike the Ascend have a very attractive cabinet. Despite their small size they throw an enormous soundstage with incredible imaging. Their main drawback is lower sensitivity so if you like to listen super loud you'd probably want a stronger than average AVR.

The Hsu HB-1/HC-1 is also a good bet. Not sure about the CC8 yet since it's so new and there's always the inevitable breathless hoopla that greets the arrival of any new speaker models, but would be curious to hear them too.
 
#21 ·
People worry too much about niceties of sound signature when MultEQ XT[32?] is going to even out most of that stuff anyway. Barring something really deficient or unusually great (and none of the speakers here mentioned are a non-standard design, though the coaxial drivers of the Hsu CCB may help with off-angle) what you're really going to notice in a HT application is the max SPL and ease of producing not-quite-max bits that both come from efficiency.
 
#31 · (Edited)
Don't skip a center channel unless your mains are in a narrow 3-4' window.

About 2 years ago I bought infinity kappa 600,300 and kappa canter for $150 used on Craigslist. Look used and you'll get a awesome setup

Not correct. You have another serious, but easily fixable, issue if that pic is your system.

Speakers in my systems are hugely far apart and I'm far better off withOUT a center.

Notice a difference?











 
#38 ·
You're trying too hard and taking the fun out of this. There is no "right", and definitely no "perfect" answer or system. Most people are going to suggest brands they own, be indifferent to most other brands, and some people will absolutely hate on some other brand. The fact is, all the speaker brands you have listed and have been suggested are a quality product. You're in good company, and really, there is no "wrong" choice. Get your system up and running so you can enjoy it!

That said, don't go without a center. The anti-center tribe is a very small minority.
 
#40 ·
If you xxx dollars to spend. Get a pair of Elac UB5s versus a pair of B6s and a C5 center. A center is just about the biggest waste of $$$$ that you can put into a 'stereo' system, assuming that you're willing to position speakers 'correctly', and correctly is almost never where it's most convenient. So whine done, I put 'em away in the office and master bedroom. Takes me all of two seconds.
 
#43 ·
Elac UB5s look better than B6s>>>>>>But they look inferior to Kef Q300 & HSU CCB-8

I am really intrigued by HSU CCB-8 at this point. Its wrestling with the total price $700 + $65 shipping
HSU has 7 yr warranty
2 years better than others
 
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#41 ·
Now, looks like the new war is:


Center or No Center

Seems to be a consensus of 50/50. Wouldn't it depend on how good your speakers are?
 
#42 · (Edited)
Now, looks like the new war is:


Center or No Center


Seems to be a consensus of 50/50. Wouldn't it depend on how good your speakers are?

Believe me, that's far from a "new war". It's also not 50 - 50. The consensus is far in favor of a center. Too bad! And yes, of course it depends on speakers. The ultra cheap Elacs image quite well. My B&Ws, less so. My almost 4 decades old Dick Sequerra Metronome 7 Mk 2s, the best of all. That was the monitor and time when we audiophile types discovered that speakers, properly setup, can in fact recreate a holographic soundstage, and the speakers present in the room, could be just decoration ..... WTH, there's nothing coming out of them.
 
#47 ·
It seems as if there is one member on here that is pushing you to get a stereo pair of speakers, because that's what he has and what he likes. I can't remember if he has one of those "new-fangled home theater" setups or not, but he DOES have a VERY nice setup for 2-channel listening.

OK - now that that's finished, I have a few questions for you:
1. What will be your percentage for TV/movies/gaming/music listening?
2. What is your budget?
3. What space constraints do you have?
4. Do you need surround speakers?
5. How important are the looks of the speaker?
6. What is your listening distance?

For home Theater, a centre channel speaker is the second-most important speaker after your subwoofer. At least 65% (if not more) of a movie's sound is directed to the centre channel by the audio mixers. The Left and Right speakers come next, and the absolute best possible setup is to have three identical speakers, ideally all on the exact vertical plane and orientation, for your LCR. If you are getting interested in the CCB-8 for your L/R, then another CCB-8 would be the ideal centre speaker.

Many of us cannot fit another bookshelf/tower speaker vertically under our TV. That is why you see dedicated, horizontal, centre-channel speakers. They usually fall into one of three configurations:
1. MTM or "D'Appolito": A midwoofer -tweeter - midwoofer driver array in the same horizontal plane (most common);
2. MTM array with the tweeter on a higher plane than the midwoofers. This is supposed to mitigate the effects of "comb-filtering" - a term that means the there could be a lot of negative interference in the sound waves produced by the woofers; and
3. WT/MW - an array of drivers that have a woofer on each side, with the tweeter above the plane of the woofers, and a midrange driver below the tweeter. In terms of a design, this 3-way centre speaker configuration is usually the best option, but not all companies make speakers like this.

You can get many types of tweeters (soft dome, metal dome, ribbon, folded ribbon, compression driver, etc) on decent budget speakers these days. There are also drivers known as "concentric drivers" that have the tweeter incorporated into the woofer - like the CCB-8. Both Kef and Elac Uni-Fi speakers use concentric speakers for the mid-range and tweeter too, with a separate woofer.

In all cases, it is best to match your centre channel speaker with the main left and right pair. There are a few on here that deliberately mismatch their speakers, but that is due to a poor-performing centre, or because the main speakers have a mellow sound to them - and therefore would not be good for dialog clarity. That's fine, it works for them. What you should decide, is to find out what speaker "speaks" to you - be it Klipsch, DefTec, Elac Debut, Elac Uni-Fi, HSU, Polk, Martin Logan, GoldenEar, etc. The fun part of buying speakers is trying them out in stores - and then at home if the store has a good return policy!
 
#48 · (Edited)
"It seems as if there is one member on here "

"It seems" ???? Who could that be?

"on here that is pushing you to get a stereo pair of speakers"

Since he already has a pair of stereo speakers, I'm not "pushing' him to try a pair of stereo speakers. What I'm encouraging him to do is consider the Elac UB5 versus the Elac B6s (what I have).

"I can't remember if he has one of those "new-fangled home theater" setups or not"

Of my four systems, not a chance. However, I get enough exposure to HT around here to be familiar with it, and we all have identically built and shaped entertainment rooms downstairs, which the vast majority of folks use for HT. I think it's just me and one other of the 110 or 120 homes in this HOA use them for two channel. He has Maggies and I have ESLs.

I don't have much time to have TV on, period, but I just tried a few samples from HBO, the Blu-ray and then back to cable for some other channels since my last post. I have zero trouble with dialog, hearing or understanding it. I hear it just as well as the neighbors with their full blown multi multi speaker HT systems.

The issue I have with a center channel speaker is it seems that all of the dialog is coming from the center. That's not real to me. What if there's an individual that's 20 degrees to the right of center and one who is 10 degrees to the left, etc.? This is what I think a center wrecks .... the ability to place individual activity to anywhere else in the sound stage other than center. Even with eyes closed so the visual isn't overriding the auditory, I don't find that this works. Even IF I do a modest HT at some point, I won't be using a center.
 
#53 ·
It's actually really simple. If you're a music guy don't worry about a center channel. Put your money into better speakers.

If you watch movies often and are a theater guy it doesn't take much common sense to realize you need a center channel. This topic of not needing one for movies and dialogue is completely laughable. Of course you can hear what people are saying in two channel. Voices need to come from display. Not in the middle of the room 4' in front of you. Lol

I've never owned elac speakers. I have heard emotiva, emp, and hsu. All of those I didn't care for at all.

I'd rather own Polk audio speakers. Right now Polk is running their %50 off sale on Lsim line. For $700you could get lsim703 Brand new. They are a musical softer speaker. If you want more aggressive treble sound you need a metal tweet. Kef q300 will be that speaker. They are $399 new right now. The new kef q line is coming out so the older line is discounted heavily.

If you crave spl just pass on any bookshelf speaker. Get some towers that will take less power to achieve greater spl. Many to choose from. You could get a pair of jbl es90 or es80 new for $200-400 that would again put the elac to shame.

Don't get caught up with avs marketing hype of companies like elac, emotiva, and svs.

Svs ultra speakers aren't bad if they were half the price they sell for.

Again I'll say look at used definitive technology. You come find a pair of bp7002 for $500-600 that will rival speakers that cost $2500-3000. Definitive has the best customer service and will send you out replacement parts usually for free.

I've owned many speakers and definitive is the best home theater speaker I've ever had. Not bad for music either.
 
#55 · (Edited)
"Voices need to come from display. Not in the middle of the room 4' in front of you. Lol"

Lol, they do sound like they're coming from the display with the added advantage of having 'stage' laterally beyond the foot or so of the a center. If someone / something is 20 or 30 degrees off to the left or the right or 10 degrees, whatever, I'm far more aware of that by NOT using a center. With the center, it was in the center, not slightly off to the right or left, which 'center stage' stretching from wall to wall just might be more in tune with reality.
 
#54 ·
Voices need to come from where director intended sound to come from. Someone talks from left. Voice in left tower. Surrounds will also have dialogue. If you don't have a center channel you take away from tonal effects. Yes %99 of the time it's front and center. Unless your use to listening to people talk to you in a stereo image. The term holographic sound stage is a term used to really state you have 2 speakers working together in a stereo image to portray a center ch. why not just get a center ch? Why not improve you soundstage?

I'm moving on. Starting to sound like a broken record. Lol
 
#56 · (Edited)
Voices need to come from where director intended sound to come from. Someone talks from left. Voice in left tower. Surrounds will also have dialogue. If you don't have a center channel you take away from tonal effects. Yes %99 of the time it's front and center. Unless your use to listening to people talk to you in a stereo image. The term holographic sound stage is a term used to really state you have 2 speakers working together in a stereo image to portray a center ch. why not just get a center ch? Why not improve you soundstage?


I'm moving on. Starting to sound like a broken record. Lol
Because it doesn't improve 'you' soundstage. It destroys it.

"Unless your use to listening to people talk to you in a stereo image."

Well, given that we generally have two ears (with few exceptions) that IS how we hear. How many ears do YOU have?

"Someone talks from left. Voice in left tower"

No no, that's not what I'm talking about. One continuous uninterrupted stage from far left boundary to far right boundary. NOT 'coming out' of just center or right speaker or left speaker.
 
#57 ·
Confused by your own agenda.

I would never say my music room with my Canton reference Speakers sounds better for dialogue than my home theater.

Good luck to you trying to convince people though. I've had both and I've done both and I will never go back to not having a center channel

Have you ever owned a good center channel?
 
#59 · (Edited)
Confused by your own agenda.

I would never say my music room with my Canton reference Speakers sounds better for dialogue than my home theater.

Good luck to you trying to convince people though. I've had both and I've done both and I will never go back to not having a center channel

Have you ever owned a good center channel?
Not a chance, no need, but I've heard many higher end systems with them. Don't like it for the reasons I've detailed multiply times.

"I'm moving on"

So you are or you aren't?

"Confused by your own agenda"

Again, suggesting that the OP consider UB5s instead of B6s. I have a set of B6s, but I think the extra dollars are well worth it for the UB5s. If that compromise means forgoing the center (for now), well worth it.

I'll give you this, the way you're currently positioned, you couldn't possibly understand what I'm talking about. You're not getting it. Whole 'nother paradigm.

I can't find the Wilkinson / Guttenberg clip where they discuss this exact subject with a much better explanation than what I did. This is touched on here at min 23:30 and on, but I don't have time to dig for it now.

 
#58 · (Edited)
I personally couldn't find a good enough compromise for a joined movie/music system, so I have a 2.1 music system with bigger 3 way bookshelf speakers and an 8" sub, and a 3.1 movie system with bookshelf speakers and 12" sub. The movie system speakers I just can't find a perfect balance for sub integration for music with an AVR and crossover levels, but for its intended purpose of movies only it sounds great. I also usually listen to music at reasonable levels in a great room area, where the movie system is in a rec room and usually gets played louder. So, if you want one system for both, maybe you would be better off with larger bookshelf speakers with 6.5" woofers, or floor standers. It's hard to recommend things when everyone has different needs, layouts, and ears.
 
#62 ·
60-70. That it?

I've had more sets in last 10 years.

Like I said I'm sure YOU'RE a great guy and I bet we have a lot in common.

Good luck to you and maybe one year we'll meet. Since my family are also dealers. I never have been.

7 setups in my house from 2.0 to 7.4.4. From $2000 setups to $50,000 ones. I'm sure we both have great experience. When it comes to home theater you are definitely a newbie. When it comes to music you are very advanced.

Even you stated you never have owned a center channel. To me that's a huge mistake for a home theater guy. For music I totally understand that many great speakers don't even offer a center channel.
 
#63 · (Edited)
"Like I said I'm sure YOU'RE a great guy and I bet we have a lot in common"

I doubt it. So besides being "a mess" and an idiot, I'm a great guy?

"When it comes to home theater you are definitely a newbie"

"To me that's a huge mistake for a home theater guy"

What did I not make clear? I have NO interest in HT, but enough experience. My systems, to use some HT vernacular, are 2.2, 2.1, 2.0 and 2.0
Edit: plus 2.0 in the garage.

"7 setups in my house from 2.0 to 7.4.4. From $2000 setups to $50,000 ones"

Tell me about your $50,000 system(s)
 
#64 ·
Man what a thread hi jack. Lol

Preamp or processing
Integra r1 $3000/ movies

Krell illusion preamp $9000/ music

Speakers
Movies
Definitive bp7001sc $3600
Definitive clr3000 $1300
Definitive bpvx $2500
Definitive sm450 $1500
Music
Canton reference 3 $17,000

Amps
Adcom 7805 and adcom 7605 $4500
Krell duo 300 $9000

Subs
Pair of rythmik fv15hp $2900

Display
65" oled e6 $5000

Cables
Audioquest vodka hdmi. Kimber Kwik12. Kimber 12vs. Kimber hero. Kimber silver streak. Kimber 12tc. Thousands of dollars. Not sure. If I'd guess $4000 range.

Line conditioning
Belkin pf60 and Panamax 5400ex. 600-700$

Oppo 203 $550

2 dedicated 20a lines also.

Not sure what all that equals but it's well over 50k. Makes me sick when I write down all that. Krell canton setup is going to music room. Will be replacing canton reference 7 that were being powered by a onkyo rz900 and sunfire setup. So I guess if you take canton krell setup and move it to other room I'm under 50k. Probably closer to 30-35k.

So that one setup 6 more but this is not what this thread is for. We can start another one so we can go into this ridiculous competition. Always someone with better gear.
 
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