Speaker Shootout - two of the most accurate and well reviewed speakers ever made - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 1489 Old 07-30-2017, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
The other thing Harman's research has shown is that the more speakers you have in a room, the less you can determine fidelity. I've only heard the Alcons in an immersive audio setup.

From the research, the best and most reliable results in listening tests have come when the speakers are compared in mono.

Mono y mono, if you will
Are you going to try doing this or both setup in pairs?

EDIT: Never mind. Finally read far enough into the thread. Mono it is.

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post #62 of 1489 Old 07-30-2017, 07:36 PM
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If you want to throw a wrench in the works like Floyd suggests, then try a LSR305/308. Mfusick has done this at some GTs.

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post #63 of 1489 Old 07-30-2017, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
I can see the logic in measuring a speaker in mono to determine its performance characteristics, but no one sits at home and listens to just one speaker (well, aside from those with Sonos and the like) and the interaction between the two speakers in terms of dispersion would come into play with a stereo setup.

Maybe doing the tests in mono for a stripped down 'just the speaker and nothing but the speaker' result and then repeating them in stereo to get more real-world impressions for how people actually listen would be worthwhile. Of course, then you have to deal with seating and finding the 'sweet spot' but you could have people play musical chairs within each test - that would also allow for impressions about how wide an acceptable listening window each speaker is capable of.

I thought the same and felt that was a clear issue (problem) with the tests. However, reading the results of the tests and some of the research (papers) behind them, led me to agree with them, not that my agreement matters to anyone but me. Aside from the technical rationale, the results also showed that mono and stereo results agreed for listeners who listened to the speakers tested. IOW, the best speakers heard in mono, stayed the best when stereo was considered. I suspect part of the magic was/is Harmon's focus on good off-axis performance.

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post #64 of 1489 Old 07-30-2017, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by adrummingdude View Post
Absolutely agree. They are both very nice speakers, but it's a bit like comparing a Camaro to a Suburban.

I think the M2's would probably be more appropriately compared with some of the JTR or Triad options, or other studio monitors like Genelec, Barefoot, Adam etc. Salon 2's are WAY further over in the Hi-Fi spectrum.
I'm not so sure about that. I owned the Salon 2's for about 1 week, that's how much I liked them.
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post #65 of 1489 Old 07-30-2017, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by SeaNile View Post
I'm not so sure about that. I owned the Salon 2's for about 1 week, that's how much I liked them.

That's actually my point. Studio monitors are designed for accuracy, while hi-fi speakers often are not (though, those manufacturers still claim they are).

Salon 2's are hi-fi speakers. My 802 Diamonds are hi-fi speakers (although they are often enough used as monitors for some odd reason). The 802 sounds like an 802. It isn't a bad sound, but it's a sound. You may prefer a more accurate presentation.

I've done enough time in the studio both drumming and behind a console to know I don't much enjoy casually listening to monitors. They're too hard and flat...the good ones are anyway.

While hi-fi speakers are not going to be as useful of a tool to mix with, they're a whole lot easier to listen to.

I've never heard the M2, and while I would really like to see what all the hype is about, just the fact that producers and engineers are the ones drooling over the things means I probably wont like it. Appreciate it, sure, but I'm not mixing tracks in my family room.

I'll also weigh in (totally not directed toward you, SeaNile) that I don't believe for a second you can determine what a speaker will sound like based on its measurements, as believing such things greatly minimizes how beautiful our ears and brains are, let alone the room as someone else pointed out. Timbre is one of those elusive but very real characteristics that we don't really have great ways to approximate or measure, and as such it isn't discussed on this board often. That's the main problem I, as a musician, run into around here is that if something can't be qualified in a hard-sciencey enough way many of the forum participants will either try to shun it as tomfoolery or just bury their head in the sand altogether and go back to their precious measurements.
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post #66 of 1489 Old 07-30-2017, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
FWIW, the M2 and its smaller siblings are now often used in the critical mixing and mastering of immersive sound formats. For that matter, the Revels are also used for critical evaluations of immersive sound formats (hence my comment about Salon2s in one of Dolby's Critical Listening Labs, as pictured below):

What are being used as atmos speakers in the lab?
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post #67 of 1489 Old 07-31-2017, 02:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
LOL, you forgot that you have to wear a negative ion bracelet on your left wrist and stand on one leg before listening.

I know...don't feed the trolls, but it's like you have no idea how an amplifier or power supply actually works
Dont really care how it works sonny boy! Only care it how it sounds. Harry Pearson rules! Long live JGH.

Someone must have a degree in EE.
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post #68 of 1489 Old 07-31-2017, 02:52 AM
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Dont really care how it works sonny boy! Only care it how it sounds. Harry Pearson rules! Long live JGH.

Someone must have a degree in EE.
That's the whole point of doing blind testing. Otherwise, the appearance of the speaker or foreknowledge of the speaker being tested taints the perception.

Anecdotes abound of people claiming preference for a particular speaker in a line-up and then having their preferences completely change upon listening without being able to see what's being tested.
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post #69 of 1489 Old 07-31-2017, 03:16 AM
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This discussion does raise an important philosophical question though. To the extent that sight or knowledge of the product influences preference, is the sound really what's important?

A lot of people pay huge sums of money for speakers that rarely sound better than good speakers that are much less expensive when scrutinized under blind testing. But the emotional satisfaction of owning such a design and having been able to afford it might override the emotional appeal of the sound itself. So is it the sound that really matters?

I think each person will have to make up his or her own mind. But beware that you might not be being honest with yourself.
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post #70 of 1489 Old 07-31-2017, 04:46 AM
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I just looked and Revel has made the TAS list a couple of times.

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post #71 of 1489 Old 07-31-2017, 05:16 AM
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Robert Harley liked the Salon2.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/arti...loudspeaker-1/

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post #72 of 1489 Old 07-31-2017, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
Yes, they were loud. It will be interesting to see hear them again. Supposedly Seaton spent a lot of time trying to get them to sound right.
Hi Eric,

I think you might have missed some of the other discussion about the 10-15 mins of tinkering I did during the after hours demo Peter(CINERAMAX) had arranged for a group from AVS. Toward the end of that same day during the show and in our demo session it was clear the bass was not in balance with the rest of the system, or some routing wasn't correct. From best we could tell, the beta version of the Trinnov firmware rebooted or hiccuped earlier in the day during or after they temporarily added a different source to play back some content from a reviewer, and all bass management settings were lost when it came back to life. I quickly went through bass management and tweaked the target curve to what I figured Peter was looking for, and he was very happy with the sound. Walter, aka TheLion here on AVS, did the calibration of the Alcons system last year, and the next morning he set things back in line with what he had originally configured before the hiccup the day prior. I don't believe any visitors during show hours were listening to what I had done the night before, and that wouldn't make any sense for me to be involved in another speaker manufacturer's setup.

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post #73 of 1489 Old 07-31-2017, 10:13 AM
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Bickering and condescending posts removed.

Discuss the topic and not each other. Might want to avoid dog shows and automobiles, too.

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post #74 of 1489 Old 07-31-2017, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Hi Eric,

I think you might have missed some of the other discussion about the 10-15 mins of tinkering I did during the after hours demo Peter(CINERAMAX) had arranged for a group from AVS. Toward the end of that same day during the show and in our demo session it was clear the bass was not in balance with the rest of the system, or some routing wasn't correct. From best we could tell, the beta version of the Trinnov firmware rebooted or hiccuped earlier in the day during or after they temporarily added a different source to play back some content from a reviewer, and all bass management settings were lost when it came back to life. I quickly went through bass management and tweaked the target curve to what I figured Peter was looking for, and he was very happy with the sound. Walter, aka TheLion here on AVS, did the calibration of the Alcons system last year, and the next morning he set things back in line with what he had originally configured before the hiccup the day prior. I don't believe any visitors during show hours were listening to what I had done the night before, and that wouldn't make any sense for me to be involved in another speaker manufacturer's setup.
Ok, I must have missed that. I know Peter has mentioned a couple of times that you worked on it. I think I might have listened to the last demo of the show on Saturday.

Just to be clear, I wasn't calling out your work. I was saying the Alcons themselves may have been the weak link. I have now heard them twice and haven't been blown away. The last couple of years I have considered JBL and Wisdom to be consistently in the top three demos of Cedia. I know Steve from Dr. Dog's meet thought the JBL was the best, but he didn't get to Wisdom. He is more of an audiophile than I am and was disappointed in a lot of the audio demos last year like B&O. LOL, if John really wanted to play with the participants in this shootout then he would get those nasty B&Os.

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post #75 of 1489 Old 07-31-2017, 03:23 PM
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This may be a tangent, but are Salon2 and M2 really still the state of the loudspeaker art? Look at these anechoic measurements of Vivid Audio's Giya G2.

These results show the G2 to have a wider and more even dispersion pattern than the Salon2 under the same measurements. They also play with less deviation from linearity in frequency response (95db chart).

I think Harman's own prediction model might predict the Giya G2 to win out in a double blind test.
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post #76 of 1489 Old 07-31-2017, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by adrummingdude View Post
Absolutely agree. They are both very nice speakers, but it's a bit like comparing a Camaro to a Suburban.

I think the M2's would probably be more appropriately compared with some of the JTR or Triad options, or other studio monitors like Genelec, Barefoot, Adam etc. Salon 2's are WAY further over in the Hi-Fi spectrum.
More on this in a bit, but why should a studio monitor be anything less than Hi-Fi? After all, it stands for High Fidelity, and it is something you equally want in the studio and in the home. Ultimately, the two should line up. Why would you want your home speakers to alter what was intended by the artist in any way?

This slide from Dr. Olive's CEDIA presentation shows exactly the goal:



You can see in this image exactly how close the M2 and Revel F208 measure. Same with the M2 and Salon2 measurements I posted before. The result is that what you hear in the home will be much closer to what is heard in the studio. However, that also requires that the studio use flat and accurate monitors in a properly calibrated space.

More on that in a moment...
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post #77 of 1489 Old 07-31-2017, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
Adding the F208 would be cool, it does come in at a much more 'attainable' price point. JBL Studio 590s (those are on the JBL Synthesis site so I'm guessing are considered a Synthesis-level speaker) or JBL LSR708s could also be fun additions - both are in their own ways sort of like baby M2s....

I can see the logic in measuring a speaker in mono to determine its performance characteristics, but no one sits at home and listens to just one speaker (well, aside from those with Sonos and the like) and the interaction between the two speakers in terms of dispersion would come into play with a stereo setup.

Maybe doing the tests in mono for a stripped down 'just the speaker and nothing but the speaker' result and then repeating them in stereo to get more real-world impressions for how people actually listen would be worthwhile. Of course, then you have to deal with seating and finding the 'sweet spot' but you could have people play musical chairs within each test - that would also allow for impressions about how wide an acceptable listening window each speaker is capable of.
Good input, and exactly what we are doing. If you check the first page of this thread, here is our schedule:

August 11, 12 and 13

Location – my house in North Colorado Springs (PM me for details)

Friday August 11th

6 – 9 pm – casual hangout and listening, snacks and drinks provided

Saturday / Sunday Schedule (same both days, August 12th and 13th):

11 -12 pm - demo of the JBL Synthesis M2 / LSR708i / C763L / SDP75 based immersive audio setup
12 pm – Break for lunch
1 – 1:30 pm – setup of blind listening session (you are welcome to observe or assist)
1:30 – 3:30 pm – Blind comparison between the M2s and the Salons (may run shorter or longer, depending on number of attendees)
3:30 – 4:30 pm – Revel Salon2 stereo listening session
4:30 – 5:30 pm – JBL M2 stereo listening session
5:30 – 6 pm – Requests taken 😊

There will be limited seating for these listening tests, so please contact me via PM to reserve a space.


FYI, we now have several people flying in for the listening tests, plus some locals - should be fun Right now there is still "room at the inn," if anyone here wants to attend.

Also, I will have on hand Revel F208s and F36s, plus JBL LSR708s. I doubt we will have time to double blind more than the Salon2s and the M2s, but we can sure listen to some of the others.
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post #78 of 1489 Old 07-31-2017, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Are you going to try doing this or both setup in pairs?

EDIT: Never mind. Finally read far enough into the thread. Mono it is.
As clarified directly above, we will do the blind tests mono with separate stereo listening sessions after.

Some more input from Dr. Toole:

When you do the shoot out, be sure to caution people not to communicate their feelings verbally or non verbally. When there are several people in a room often there will be one or two who like to grunt, sigh or mutter to reveal his/her opinion of the moment. Others do so with movements. Tell them to sit still, shut up, make notes and listen :-) No looking at other people's notes and no talking between tests. It might be a challenge.

So when I tell anyone who shows up to sit still, shut up, make notes and listen, don't take it personally
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post #79 of 1489 Old 07-31-2017, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
If you want to throw a wrench in the works like Floyd suggests, then try a LSR305/308. Mfusick has done this at some GTs.
Yeah, he's smart that way

Right now the challenge is:
  • Splitting the output from the pre-pro (the SDP75, in this case, which shows up tomorrow - yay!)
  • Matching output levels
  • Setting up a switching protocol

I am very interested to see what capabilities the SDP75 might have to assist in setup. More as I play with it...
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post #80 of 1489 Old 07-31-2017, 04:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
I thought the same and felt that was a clear issue (problem) with the tests. However, reading the results of the tests and some of the research (papers) behind them, led me to agree with them, not that my agreement matters to anyone but me. Aside from the technical rationale, the results also showed that mono and stereo results agreed for listeners who listened to the speakers tested. IOW, the best speakers heard in mono, stayed the best when stereo was considered. I suspect part of the magic was/is Harmon's focus on good off-axis performance.

IMO - Don
Toole talks about mono vs. stereo right at 8:20 (I've already got it cued up) and get's really specific at 9:28.


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post #81 of 1489 Old 07-31-2017, 04:52 PM
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As clarified directly above, we will do the blind tests mono with separate stereo listening sessions after.
Got it. Thanks John. I hadn't read that far ahead on my Tapatalk app at the time and answered my own question reading a few more posts in. Yes I'm a dope.

Quote:
Some more input from Dr. Toole:

[I]When you do the shoot out, be sure to caution people not to communicate their feelings verbally or non verbally. When there are several people in a room often there will be one or two who like to grunt, sigh or mutter to reveal his/her opinion of the moment. Others do so with movements. Tell them to sit still, shut up, make notes and listen :-) No looking at other people's notes and no talking between tests. It might be a challenge.
Oh yeah, that's the truth. Body language is pretty powerful. In my profession accurately reading it meant everything. In double blind speaker tests it gets you shown the door sans snacks. Flat affect will be the word of the day. Love Dr. Toole' s advice. I even bought his book.

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So when I tell anyone who shows up to sit still, shut up, make notes and listen, don't take it personally
Exactly, just take it to heart.
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post #82 of 1489 Old 07-31-2017, 05:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by adrummingdude View Post
Studio monitors are designed for accuracy, while hi-fi speakers often are not (though, those manufacturers still claim they are).
RE: studio monitors. While it's true that studio monitors SHOULD be designed for accuracy, the reality is that most don't actually measure that way. They are all over the map. In fact, one of the most popular studio monitors of all time - the Yamaha NS10 - was one of the worst offenders. Even modern studio monitors can vary substantially.

Let's take a look at 4 different studio monitors and the measured frequency response using the Spinorama method:



(To be fair, the above is a JBL marketing piece, but the Spin measurements are accurately represented.)

So, one can claim that a Studio Monitor is "designed for accuracy," but what evidence is there that it actually IS accurate? This is why speaker measurements become so critically important, and why the "Audio Circle of Confusion" is such a real problem. Most speaker manufacturers, whether they make Pro or Consumer speakers, don't offer anything in the way of meaningful measurements. Normally, all we have to go on are marketing claims, or vague "specs" that don't really tell us anything.

That brings us to the "Audio Circle of Confusion," which is well illustrated here:



Here are Dr. Olive's words on the subject (I bolded portions particularly relevant to this discussion):

Audio’s “Circle of Confusion” is a term coined by Floyd Toole that describes the confusion that exists within the audio recording and reproduction chain due to the lack of a standardized, calibrated monitoring environment. Today, the circle of confusion remains the single largest obstacle in advancing the quality of audio recording and reproduction.

The circle of confusion is graphically illustrated in the figure above. Music recordings are made with (1) microphones that are selected, processed, and mixed by (2) listening through professional loudspeakers, which are designed by (3) listening to recordings, which are (1) made with microphones that are selected, processed, and mixed by (2) listening through professional monitors...... you get the idea. Both the creation of the art (the recording) and its reproduction (the loudspeakers and room) are trapped in an interdependent circular relationship where the quality of one is dependent on the quality of the other. Since the playback chain and room through which recordings are monitored are not standardized, the quality of recordings remains highly variable.

The most likely culprits are the loudspeakers and rooms through which the recording were made. While there are many excellent professional near-field monitors in the marketplace today, there are no industry guidelines or standards to ensure that they are used. The lack of meaningful, perceptually relevant loudspeaker specifications makes the excellent loudspeakers difficult to identify and separate from the truly mediocre ones. To make matters worse, some misguided recording engineers monitor and tweak their recordings through low-fidelity loudspeakers thinking that this represents what the average consumer will hear. Since loudspeakers can be mediocre in an infinite number of ways, this practice only guarantees that quality of the recording will be compromised when heard through good loudspeakers. This is very counterproductive if we want to improve the quality and consistency of audio recording and reproduction.


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Originally Posted by adrummingdude View Post
Salon 2's are hi-fi speakers. My 802 Diamonds are hi-fi speakers (although they are often enough used as monitors for some odd reason). The 802 sounds like an 802. It isn't a bad sound, but it's a sound. You may prefer a more accurate presentation.
But accurate in regard to what? Again, the Circle of Confusion comes in. An instrument has a "sound." A vocalist has a "sound." Unless we have the original performer in the room with us, we don't have a reference for what that sound should be. The way to solve this problem is to make sure that the monitoring environment and playback environment are true to the actual sound of the performance. How do we get there? By making sure every part of the signal path, from microphone to playback monitor, is as flat and accurate as possible.

A speaker should not have a particular sound of its own, if we want to really hear what the artist intended. That's the goal of the M2 and the Salon2 - to be a neutral transducer, that simply delivers the sound as it was recorded, without adding any colorations of it's own. That way you get to hear what was in the original recording, warts and all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrummingdude View Post
I've done enough time in the studio both drumming and behind a console to know I don't much enjoy casually listening to monitors. They're too hard and flat...the good ones are anyway.
Honestly not trying to be nitpicky or disrespectful here, but how is a "hard and flat" monitor "good"? Perhaps the reason you don't enjoy listening to them is because they aren't good. And, without any measurements to go by, it's hard to tell what makes them "hard and flat." Perhaps if we could see the measurements, we could figure it out

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Originally Posted by adrummingdude View Post
While hi-fi speakers are not going to be as useful of a tool to mix with, they're a whole lot easier to listen to.

I've never heard the M2, and while I would really like to see what all the hype is about, just the fact that producers and engineers are the ones drooling over the things means I probably wont like it. Appreciate it, sure, but I'm not mixing tracks in my family room.
See all of the above

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Originally Posted by adrummingdude View Post
I'll also weigh in (totally not directed toward you, SeaNile) that I don't believe for a second you can determine what a speaker will sound like based on its measurements, as believing such things greatly minimizes how beautiful our ears and brains are, let alone the room as someone else pointed out. Timbre is one of those elusive but very real characteristics that we don't really have great ways to approximate or measure, and as such it isn't discussed on this board often. That's the main problem I, as a musician, run into around here is that if something can't be qualified in a hard-sciencey enough way many of the forum participants will either try to shun it as tomfoolery or just bury their head in the sand altogether and go back to their precious measurements.
Again, trying to offer this constructively, but have you looked at any of the materials presented in this thread? They clearly show how Dr. Toole and his fellow researchers actually correlated what speakers people actually enjoy listening to WITH the measurements, not the other way around. This is important - the listening tests came first. Once it was determined which speakers people thought sounded the most musical, it then became a matter of determining what the commonalities were. What they determined is that the speakers that won the double blind listening tests were also the most neutral. Neutrality was only part of the story, though, as those that scored the highest also featured very wide and even dispersion, with comparably flat response off axis as well as on axis. From here, Harman developed the Spinorama measurement, which is a graphical representation of these characteristics.

The result is now Harman can predict with 86% accuracy which speaker will win the subjective blind listening tests just by looking at the Spins.

So it's not just about the measurements, it's about how well the measurements line up with what people subjectively think sounds good
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post #83 of 1489 Old 07-31-2017, 05:41 PM
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post #84 of 1489 Old 07-31-2017, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Shadowed View Post

What are being used as atmos speakers in the lab?
Revel GEM2s.

In this room, they are using Paradigm subs
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post #85 of 1489 Old 07-31-2017, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by awediophile View Post
This discussion does raise an important philosophical question though. To the extent that sight or knowledge of the product influences preference, is the sound really what's important?

A lot of people pay huge sums of money for speakers that rarely sound better than good speakers that are much less expensive when scrutinized under blind testing. But the emotional satisfaction of owning such a design and having been able to afford it might override the emotional appeal of the sound itself. So is it the sound that really matters?

I think each person will have to make up his or her own mind. But beware that you might not be being honest with yourself.
This is a good point. It's kind of like speaker cables. While I don't believe that they will improve the sound in any way, I want some nice-looking high end cables to "dress" the M2s / Salon2s we have on display. There will be some emotional satisfaction that comes from seeing something that looks sharp that might also subliminally improve my listening enjoyment
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post #86 of 1489 Old 07-31-2017, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by neutralguy View Post
This may be a tangent, but are Salon2 and M2 really still the state of the loudspeaker art? Look at these anechoic measurements of Vivid Audio's Giya G2.

These results show the G2 to have a wider and more even dispersion pattern than the Salon2 under the same measurements. They also play with less deviation from linearity in frequency response (95db chart).

I think Harman's own prediction model might predict the Giya G2 to win out in a double blind test.
They should sound decent. Wonder about the persistent hump around 500 Hz seen in the far off axis curves. It would be more informative to see a real Spinorama. My guess is that this would be an audible detriment, as it will show in the DI.

Obviously, making a good sounding loudspeaker these days is a matter of deciding to do it, and applying some competent engineering
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post #87 of 1489 Old 07-31-2017, 06:38 PM
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Someone posted an interesting (to me) questions in either this or another thread relating to the Harman measurements - that there's more to a loudspeaker's performance than just frequency response.

Of course, the Spinoramas also capture data on dispersion, which has been found to be important, as is off-axis response. Plus, most people would agree that sensitivity is important, as are possibly impedance across the frequency range and phase angle in terms of selecting the right amplifier.

Beyond those things though, it seems like there should be more that can be measured. The Soundstage measurements include THD measurements, which seem like they should be important. After all, it doesn't matter if a speaker is reproducing a frequency range flatly if it's distorting the signal, and there seems to be a lot of variation there, such as the Salon 2s:



vs the GoldenEar Triton One:



vs the Kef Blade 2:



vs the PSB T3:



All well regarded speakers, but with a lot of variation in the distortion that doesn't seem to coincide with variations in frequency response.

Beyond distortion, how do we measure things that dynamic capability and 'speed' of those changes? Are those simply a measure of sensitivity, or is there another way to measure how quickly a speaker can respond (and how much it can respond) to quick dynamic changes in source material?

How about 'resolution' (for lack of a better term)? Some speakers are known for being more revealing of subtle details in source material than others, is that a factor of frequency response and dispersion or something else? Just because a speakers can play pink noise at various frequencies in a flat manner does it mean that it can bring out the subtle background details in a recording as well as another with similar frequency measurements?

I'm curious as to how other factors that impact the overall sound of a loudspeaker can be quantified and measured, or how our existing measurements can be used to infer (if they can be) how they would compare in those areas.

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post #88 of 1489 Old 07-31-2017, 06:50 PM
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The Giya G2 listed for $50k/pair back in 2012 so I'm not going to cry if it equals or even exceeds a little (really doubt it would be by much if any) my Salon2's. And I prefer the Salon2's looks (purely subjective, but might as well have speakers that look good to me if the sound is good). That said, weren't/aren't they (G2, I think now the G3) pretty highly regarded? Sort of proves that speakers that measure good can also sound good. I doubt anybody will claim there is one "best" speaker, and from what I have read and been told, Harmon's goal was to equal or beat any speaker within about 2x the price. Seems like they are doing that... There are a lot of great speakers around these days, and unfortunately some at and well above the G2's price that are, err, hmmm, lacking...

A comment on speaker cables: While I am a non-believer in "supercables", it is true that more complex systems and those with relatively complex load impedance like the Salon2's do benefit from low driving impedance. That usually means a good amp (generally high-power) with low output impedance and heavy (and preferably short) speaker cables. Most speakers assume a voltage source (zero-ohm driving impedance) and deviations can change the frequency response a bit. My beloved Maggies do drop to 3 ohms or below in the treble due to the ribbon, and ESL's for which I also have a weak spot are even worse. But plenty of conventional speakers have pretty widely varying loads (B&W among them). In practice most amps using most speaker cables work just fine, but I did op for 10 AWG to my Salon2's even though it is only about a 20' run. Probably overkill, deviations for most reasonable systems are only tenths of a dB, but what the heck. Got the Salon2's, splurged on 50' of 10 AWG stranded power wire from my local Home Depot, happy.
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post #89 of 1489 Old 07-31-2017, 08:22 PM
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I'm looking forward to this. Thank you, John. Your contributions to AVS have been numerous and beneficial to all. Keep it up!
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post #90 of 1489 Old 08-01-2017, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Yeah, he's smart that way

Right now the challenge is:
  • Splitting the output from the pre-pro (the SDP75, in this case, which shows up tomorrow - yay!)
  • Matching output levels
  • Setting up a switching protocol

I am very interested to see what capabilities the SDP75 might have to assist in setup. More as I play with it...
Based on my experience with the similar Trinnov Altitude, this should be very easy to execute. The limit will just be how fast the system switches between presets, which will be the easiest way to configure the playback modes. If the amplifiers have 12V triggers it will be similarly easy to turn off the other speaker if desired. You will want to pay attention to potential noise floor differences between the M2 amplifiers connected to the very efficient, horn loaded tweeter vs the more conventional Salon 2 with much lower sensitivity. The noise floor in the room with enough AC for the number of listeners will play a factor in if this is any concern. You can turn the amplifier off of the unit not being used to eliminate any noise floor of the M2, but do also consider that keeping the amplifiers powered up and muting the outputs will damp the woofers to reduce acoustic interaction in the room and obviously make for quicker switching.

The speed of processing changes and swapping presets in the Trinnov is related to the channel count, where complex Atmos systems can take significant processing time to make adjustments. As such, be sure to create fresh presets with only the speakers you are using configured. You can pretty much route any decoded channel to any output, so you should be able to very easily create a preset for each speaker, where the channel outputs allow for 0.1dB adjustments in output level to make level matching easy. Be sure you know what sort of test signal you will use for level matching, as differences between the frequency response, off axis power, or room interaction due to driver location will result in slightly different results with different bandwidth signals.

Good luck with the logistics! Listener's impressions should prove quite interesting.

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