Speaker Shootout - two of the most accurate and well reviewed speakers ever made - Page 46 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 1624Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1351 of 1494 Old 09-03-2017, 06:06 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 68
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Again:

"What you posted is not an answer to my question"

Sure it is, not like we haven't been over this before more than a few times. Right?

You asked "I'm very interested to learn what those other things are"

And I answered. What he and Wilkinson detailed are 'my other things': focus, clarity, envelopment, three dimensionality, including sound stage width, height and depth, image specificity, dynamics, etc. And to be sure, side to side consistency with regards to frequency response is very important"

It's 3:00PM and a decent day. It rained all day yesterday. So I've still got most of two cars to detail, then yard work, then cycling, then lifting weights, then meet my grandson for dinner, then grocery. You asked me a simple question. I answered a simple question. That's it! We've done the rope a dope in the roundabout many many times before regarding this issue, in depth. Exactly what do you expect to change this time?
>> There's much more to all of 'this' than just frequency response

Hmm. It's a fair (and interesting) question to ask what could account for all the cool playback qualities we like and differ on (ASW, other soundstage presentation, depth and similar dimensionality, location of sources, envelopment, yada and yada) other than frequency response as a function of angle (= the definition of radiation pattern).

And after it, distance, and the hardness/softness of surfaces.

Is it "timing", "micro" resolution, "phase", "speed", "transients", "resolution", "focus", slammin' velvet or velvety slam or inky depth? Those are all covered by / expressed in the area of frequency response. Not distortions, not noise, with modern equipment. (Someone here just made what sounded like the same driver IMD arguments that McIntosh, whose very highly R&Ded loudspeaker systems no one owns, in my experience, or knows anyone who does, was making in the 1960s.)

Answer: It's the FR and delay of the image sources "in" the near boundaries --- see fig 19 at http://ethanwiner.com/aes/david_moran.pdf --- which form the cool playback perceptions in our ears and brain. What else could it be?

Once you start thinking about this stuff methodically, the factors and variables at least become clearer, I find. Then you can spend your non-music-listening time reading extensively about the details and subtleties and other fundamentals in Toole's new tome, and the old one.

If some here really desire a home research project to delve which has meaningful and readily audible results, experiment w/ your speaker placements and take solid room power measurements (temporally averaging smartphone RTA) of the results in the crucial two lower-mid octaves ~90-~360Hz. Especially 100-200Hz, which reaches down to the upper bass. This is the area above where soundwave summing is mostly coherent and below where the incoherence doesn't much matter. (Practical tips on this later.)
AudioJosh, DonH50 and 12B4A like this.
davidrmoran is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1352 of 1494 Old 09-03-2017, 08:43 PM
Member
 
highmr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posts: 163
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 61 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidrmoran View Post
>> There's much more to all of 'this' than just frequency response

Answer: It's the FR and delay of the image sources "in" the near boundaries --- see fig 19 at http://ethanwiner.com/aes/david_moran.pdf --- which form the cool playback perceptions in our ears and brain. What else could it be?
Do any current speakers resemble the properties of the Allison AL125s that you use as a reference but are 20+ years old?

LCR: Hsu HB-1 MK2, HC-1 MK2..........Subwoofer: Rhythmik D15SE
Receiver: Denon X4200W..................Networking: Roku Premiere+, Chromecast Audio
Blu-Ray: Oppo BDP-80......................TV: Samsung PN60F8500
Atmos/DTS-X: 5.1.4; RSL C34E speakers
highmr is offline  
post #1353 of 1494 Old 09-03-2017, 11:44 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 68
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by highmr View Post
Do any current speakers resemble the properties of the Allison AL125s that you use as a reference but are 20+ years old?
Any really competent 3-way tower with the woofer(s) either near the floor or designed to be close to the front wall would do for me, I think, except there is nothing like the Allison tweeter. (Unpatented; hard to make.) I found the Infinity P362 v close and certainly so in overall balance, though without the air and insight into recording venue. There must be others (Revel ). Most I know are designed for out-from-wall placement and have their woofers up off the floor, guaranteeing fully audible thinness and roughness around and below middle C. I otherwise could live probably with older Revels or Snells w/ rear tweeter on. I certainly could live with the short-lived Boston Acoustics E100, a 'modern' tower and quite amazing piece of design work. Keele CBT. Some Genelecs. Ditto surely for Linkwitz designs, or former Mirages. (Beoplabs if I had the bucks and no spouse.)
The AL125s are not my reference, alas, as they are suboptimally sited and used for TV / HT w a Hsu sub in the corner. I do most of my daily listening over a pair of Allison LC110 2-ways on their backs on my desk, EQed to get rid of that awful 150-200Hz peak which desks provide. (w/ an extra, passive sub and side speakers fed L-R / R-L, RAL centers, on end.) In my batcave I do serious listening over bespoke-EQed dbx SF1As, or sometimes dbx SF2500s, a modest tower equally smooth and canny as all get out, designed by the same guy who did the BAs mentioned above (now at Sonos; Michael Chamness).

I guess that's a windy tedious way of saying probably no. But surely these new Revels ....

Am trying to get OEM interest in resurrecting the Allison tweeter, but you can imagine how that's going.
davidrmoran is online now  
 
post #1354 of 1494 Old 09-04-2017, 01:06 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH and Soviet Monica, CA
Posts: 3,653
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1765 Post(s)
Liked: 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidrmoran View Post
>> There's much more to all of 'this' than just frequency response

Hmm. It's a fair (and interesting) question to ask what could account for all the cool playback qualities we like and differ on (ASW, other soundstage presentation, depth and similar dimensionality, location of sources, envelopment, yada and yada) other than frequency response as a function of angle (= the definition of radiation pattern).

And after it, distance, and the hardness/softness of surfaces.

Is it "timing", "micro" resolution, "phase", "speed", "transients", "resolution", "focus", slammin' velvet or velvety slam or inky depth? Those are all covered by / expressed in the area of frequency response. Not distortions, not noise, with modern equipment. (Someone here just made what sounded like the same driver IMD arguments that McIntosh, whose very highly R&Ded loudspeaker systems no one owns, in my experience, or knows anyone who does, was making in the 1960s.)

Answer: It's the FR and delay of the image sources "in" the near boundaries --- see fig 19 at http://ethanwiner.com/aes/david_moran.pdf --- which form the cool playback perceptions in our ears and brain. What else could it be?

Once you start thinking about this stuff methodically, the factors and variables at least become clearer, I find. Then you can spend your non-music-listening time reading extensively about the details and subtleties and other fundamentals in Toole's new tome, and the old one.

If some here really desire a home research project to delve which has meaningful and readily audible results, experiment w/ your speaker placements and take solid room power measurements (temporally averaging smartphone RTA) of the results in the crucial two lower-mid octaves ~90-~360Hz. Especially 100-200Hz, which reaches down to the upper bass. This is the area above where soundwave summing is mostly coherent and below where the incoherence doesn't much matter. (Practical tips on this later.)

"What else could it be? "

What I meant and should have said is that there is more to all of 'this' than just 'flat frequency response'

Last edited by Scotth3886; 09-04-2017 at 07:38 AM.
Scotth3886 is online now  
post #1355 of 1494 Old 09-04-2017, 08:53 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 68
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
"What else could it be? "

What I meant and should have said is that there is more to all of 'this' than just 'flat frequency response'
haha, oh, God yes, absolutely true

You might enjoy an article in High Fidelity magazine from 1978 explaining this in detail, including informal experiments, by an engineer getting his PhD at MIT in EE/psychoacoustics (Mark Davis, now at Dolby, hitherto a colleague at dbx). It was based on articles in the BAS Speaker going back to the early 1970s. (Message me if you'd like a copy; crudely: 'What we hear from a speaker in an enclosed space is its radiation pattern.') And none of it was, in general, original thinking, going back to AR in the 1950s and 1960s, also Olson (see earlier post for his 1967 horizontal radpat spec for superior speaker performance, which most cannot achieve even today) and Jensen in the 1940s. I mention these in my windy pdf history. It was sort of a mystery how the notion of direct sound being influential for anything beyond localization ever became strong (I blame the Brits ). Or maybe not, since it certainly does seem that way. Until you change the spectra by relocating the cabinet / changing its surroundings.
Scotth3886 likes this.

Last edited by davidrmoran; 09-04-2017 at 10:28 AM. Reason: add credit
davidrmoran is online now  
post #1356 of 1494 Old 09-04-2017, 09:14 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 65
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 9
With so much positive press about infinity Primus 363, does anyone know why Infinity discontinued them? The replacement is Reference 263. Do people have thoughts for how does it measure and sound when compared with P363?



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
SouthernCA is offline  
post #1357 of 1494 Old 09-04-2017, 11:05 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH and Soviet Monica, CA
Posts: 3,653
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1765 Post(s)
Liked: 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidrmoran View Post
haha, oh, God yes, absolutely true

You might enjoy an article in High Fidelity magazine from 1978 explaining this in detail, including informal experiments, by an engineer getting his PhD at MIT in EE/psychoacoustics (Mark Davis, now at Dolby, hitherto a colleague at dbx). It was based on articles in the BAS Speaker going back to the early 1970s. (Message me if you'd like a copy; crudely: 'What we hear from a speaker in an enclosed space is its radiation pattern.') And none of it was, in general, original thinking, going back to AR in the 1950s and 1960s, also Olson (see earlier post for his 1967 horizontal radpat spec for superior speaker performance, which most cannot achieve even today) and Jensen in the 1940s. I mention these in my windy pdf history. It was sort of a mystery how the notion of direct sound being influential for anything beyond localization ever became strong (I blame the Brits ). Or maybe not, since it certainly does seem that way. Until you change the spectra by relocating the cabinet / changing its surroundings.

"What we hear from a speaker in an enclosed space is its radiation pattern"

Agree. Front and back. Mine happens to be more of a figure 8 as is customary from dipoles.

"Until you change the spectra by relocating the cabinet "

What cabinet?
Scotth3886 is online now  
post #1358 of 1494 Old 09-04-2017, 11:41 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 68
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
"What we hear from a speaker in an enclosed space is its radiation pattern"

Agree. Front and back. Mine happens to be more of a figure 8 as is customary from dipoles.

"Until you change the spectra by relocating the cabinet "

What cabinet?
front, back, and everywhere

(You might have less of a fig-8 than you think and than the manufacturer and reviewers say; lug it outside and measure it. There's a way to arrive at horizontal radpat inside, carefully, up close, full-height spatial averaging by angle, and then normalization: a lot of work.)

If you butt your noncabinet up against the side wall, or put it in a closet or even a corner, or listen to it when outside, yeah, the spectral changes are marked. But I already gave that mini-sermon, and some here kept responding something along the lines of this was not their experience, so I don't wish to rehash.
davidrmoran is online now  
post #1359 of 1494 Old 09-04-2017, 12:22 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH and Soviet Monica, CA
Posts: 3,653
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1765 Post(s)
Liked: 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidrmoran View Post
front, back, and everywhere

(You might have less of a fig-8 than you think and than the manufacturer and reviewers say; lug it outside and measure it. There's a way to arrive at horizontal radpat inside, carefully, up close, full-height spatial averaging by angle, and then normalization: a lot of work.)

If you butt your noncabinet up against the side wall, or put it in a closet or even a corner, or listen to it when outside, yeah, the spectral changes are marked. But I already gave that mini-sermon, and some here kept responding something along the lines of this was not their experience, so I don't wish to rehash.
"You might have less of a fig-8 than you think"

That's why I said 'more' of a figure 8.

"If you butt your noncabinet up against the side wall, or put it in a closet or even a corner, or listen to it when outside, yeah, the spectral changes are marked"

Given what very little time I have these days to listen, I much prefer to do that than measure.

I'm well aware of what even a degree of change in toe-in, rake or distance to the front wall make. I just really don't much care anymore as I finally have them doing what I want them to do. I gotta quit chasing after this make it even better crap and be happy.
lefthandluke likes this.
Scotth3886 is online now  
post #1360 of 1494 Old 09-04-2017, 07:43 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rabident's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 2,418
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Liked: 138
Lots of grey beards in this thread. What do you guys think:

Option 1
Pay off the remaining $150k I owe on my house. Cancel my M2 order for full refund. Sell the rest of my JBL gear: SDA amps, 708/705, and SDEC. Get a 65" or 77" OLED for the living room, new atmos SSP, and inexpensive surrounds. Revisit dedicated HT in a few years after both Harman and the video side have time to stabilize.

Option 2
Continue to wait for the builder to trim out my room with control room style angled baffle wall (to toe in the M2s). Elaborate acoustic treatment plan. 2' riser that eats up a lot of room height. Use my SDEC which is basically old tech now. I still need the $1500 JBL cable set for the SDEC (or DIY). Calibration is anywhere from $3k - $6k+ depending on who. SDP75 is "still fluid" but Harman isn't extending that to customers. It's fluid in that they are dropping things they said they were going to do, while adding new stuff, but then wanting to charge for the new stuff. I'm also not sure on the whole acoustic treatment situation. Kevin claims $500 Infinity speakers don't need any acoustic treatments. The treatments for my M2 + 7 series are extensive (and expensive).

^
On one hand, I feel like I need to take a step back. I ordered Dr Toole's book. No one has ever suggested Revel to me. I don't think I've ever heard a Revel speaker. I'm pretty sure I considered them because they were dome + waveguide, similar to Genelec, but I think they got cut from the short list because of output capability in a larg(ish) room for the home. The reason I liked the M2 was because it didn't have the harshness I normally associate with a compression drivers. It was also the cheapest speaker on the list of someone I consider "in the know". As far as JBL, even their competitors pay homage to the work Dr Toole has done. So it seemed like a safe choice.

The hold up for me has been the room. It's going to be ugly. That's what I told my HT (re)designer, so I can't blame him for the look. But my builder's delays have given me time to think. I'm not sure if I really want to drop a bunch of cash on an ugly room. My wife looks at it as an investment, but that would be for something that looks the part... not an all black room with rip your head off loud speakers. The other thing is my hold over system in the living room isn't that bad. Maybe I have just gotten used to it. Surround sound would be a plus. Wife doesn't want any boxes in the room, so no subs (which is why fuller range tower speakers are nice). I think I could upgrade that room and be happy with it.

But it seems like a waste not to use the big room in the basement. And price of everything keeps going up. Unless there is another economic crash, it should be cheaper for me to build now vs waiting. If I built (and equipped) now, I could also enjoy it now. I stopped watching movies shortly before I sold our last house, thinking why watch it on the current HT... wait 1yr and watch it on the new & better system. That was 5 years ago. I love movies, but other than the occasional block buster at IMAX, I have missed a lot of movies. I have seen a lot of TV shows. I watched Lost on a 24" computer monitor in my hold over apartment during construction. Breaking Bad on my 70" cheap Sony in the living room. I still enjoyed them for the story even though I am sure I had room modes, poor off axis performance, no acoustic treatments, etc. In the grand scheme of things, how much do I really need to spend to be happy? I think the answer is a whole lot less than what the marketing departments would have us believe.
18Hurts likes this.

 

 

rabident is offline  
post #1361 of 1494 Old 09-05-2017, 01:23 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Wookii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,808
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1291 Post(s)
Liked: 464
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post
Lots of grey beards in this thread. What do you guys think:

Option 1
Pay off the remaining $150k I owe on my house. Cancel my M2 order for full refund. Sell the rest of my JBL gear: SDA amps, 708/705, and SDEC. Get a 65" or 77" OLED for the living room, new atmos SSP, and inexpensive surrounds. Revisit dedicated HT in a few years after both Harman and the video side have time to stabilize.

Option 2
Continue to wait for the builder to trim out my room with control room style angled baffle wall (to toe in the M2s). Elaborate acoustic treatment plan. 2' riser that eats up a lot of room height. Use my SDEC which is basically old tech now. I still need the $1500 JBL cable set for the SDEC (or DIY). Calibration is anywhere from $3k - $6k+ depending on who. SDP75 is "still fluid" but Harman isn't extending that to customers. It's fluid in that they are dropping things they said they were going to do, while adding new stuff, but then wanting to charge for the new stuff. I'm also not sure on the whole acoustic treatment situation. Kevin claims $500 Infinity speakers don't need any acoustic treatments. The treatments for my M2 + 7 series are extensive (and expensive).
My view is this. Without wishing to sound too depressive, I've had two friends pass away recently - 41 and 43 respectively - young, active healthy people. My point is you never know when your number is going to be up, so my philosophy is, if its something you really enjoy and you can enjoy it without going massively in debt, than crack on with it. Don't wait or put it off until tomorrow, when you can be enjoying it today, because quite frankly you can never be certain tomorrow will ever come. I watch 3-5 movies a week. Reading that you have put off watching them for 5 years makes me feel slightly ill - you need to crack on with your plans!

That said, I suspect you may be spending unnecessarily in a number of areas, and if you want to save money there are a number of areas to do it.

- You don't need a baffle wall for the M2's, so you could drop that; if the baffle wall is to also mount an AT screen, a simple wooden frame will suffice.
- If you get the SDP75, you can lose the SDEC, and even the SDA's if you wanted to, and utilise cheaper amps like ATI's.
- Forget the expensive acoustic treatment plan. If you've followed the discussion in this thread on Harmans approach to designing the M2's, they are designed to work without it. Personally I still like acoustic treatments, and I love the way my room sounds which is fairly heavily treated, but it can be done very cost effectively by purchasing ready made panels from the like of RPG, or making them yourself. In the bass region you're also far better putting that money into multiple subs at appropriate positions, and associated calibration, than trying to deal with bass issues using room treatments.
- Forget the expensive JBL cable loom, simply buy some Pro XLR cables, chop off the appropriate end, and wire them into the phoenix connectors. Half an hours work to save you $1300 there.
- Personally I'd forget the calibration too and run it yourself - this will come down to your own desire to do it though, and willingness to climb the steep learning curve required. Time is money, so you may prefer to free up your time, and spend the money, which is a fair trade - but bear in mind, change anything significant in the room, and you've got to have it done all over again.

Last edited by Wookii; 09-05-2017 at 07:38 AM.
Wookii is offline  
post #1362 of 1494 Old 09-05-2017, 07:08 AM
Advanced Member
 
AudioJosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 991
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 257
I pretty much echo what Wookii said.

Also, you can get it set up and slowly as funds allow do the extra things like risers, acoustic treatments (don't need a lot IMO) and calibration if wanted.

JoshK on most other audio forums
Quantity only when quality is ensured.
AudioJosh is offline  
post #1363 of 1494 Old 09-05-2017, 08:27 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Naples, FL
Posts: 199
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 142 Post(s)
Liked: 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post
Lots of grey beards in this thread. What do you guys think?
My approach is best A/V, bare bones aesthetic. Rectangular room is fine (toe in the speakers). When the lights are off, you don't see the room. Neutral gray wall paint. Black or dark gray carpet.

I would use Revel Salon2's for front L/R outside the screen, not behind it. Voice2 under the screen and Studio2 (or even F208's) for rear surround. 5 channel surround still works well for me. Subs if wanted or needed. Wire the room for them (and any future speaker upgrades) before drywall goes up.

A lot of folks are doing just fine with an Anthem AVM 60. I like Bryston power amps but there are less expensive options.

Some room treatment (absorption and diffusion, walls and ceiling) as necessary. You can make your own absorption panels.

The room dimensions/ratio are the most important thing. 17'W x 23'L x 10'H is a good room size and ratio.

I put in a second row of four seats for guests and almost never used them. How many times are you planning to have folks over for movie night?

Last edited by Rex Anderson; 09-05-2017 at 08:43 AM.
Rex Anderson is online now  
post #1364 of 1494 Old 09-05-2017, 09:18 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH and Soviet Monica, CA
Posts: 3,653
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1765 Post(s)
Liked: 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
My view is this. Without wishing to sound too depressive, I've had two friends pass away recently - 41 and 43 respectively - young, active healthy people. My point is you never know when your number is going to be up, so my philosophy is, if its something you really enjoy and you can enjoy it without going massively in debt, than crack on with it. Don't wait or put it off until tomorrow, when you can be enjoying it today, because quite frankly you can never be certain tomorrow will ever come. I watch 3-5 movies a week. Reading that you have put off watching them for 5 years makes me feel slightly ill - you need to crack on with your plans!

That said, I suspect you may be spending unnecessarily in a number of areas, and if you want to save money there are a number of areas to do it.

- You don't need a baffle wall for the M2's, so you could drop that; if the baffle wall is to also mount an AT screen, a simple wooden frame will suffice.
- If you get the SDP75, you can lose the SDEC, and even the SDA's if you wanted to, and utilise cheaper amps like ATI's.
- Forget the expensive acoustic treatment plan. If you've followed the discussion in this thread on Harmans approach to designing the M2's, they are designed to work without it. Personally I still like acoustic treatments, and I love the way my room sounds which is fairly heavily treated, but it can be done very cost effectively by purchasing ready made panels from the like of RPG, or making them yourself. In the bass region you're also far better putting that money into multiple subs at appropriate positions, and associated calibration, than trying to deal with bass issues using room treatments.
- Forget the expensive JBL cable loom, simply buy some Pro XLR cables, chop off the appropriate end, and wire them into the phoenix connectors. Half an hours work to save you $1300 there.
- Personally I'd forget the calibration too and run it yourself - this will come down to your own desire to do it though, and willingness to climb the steep learning curve required. Time is money, so you may prefer to free up your time, and spend the money, which is a fair trade - but bear in mind, change anything significant in the room, and you've got to have it done all over again.

"My view is this. Without wishing to sound too depressive, I've had two friends pass away recently - 41 and 43 respectively - young, active healthy people. My point is you never know when your number is going to be up, so my philosophy is, if its something you really enjoy and you can enjoy it without going massively in debt, than crack on with it. Don't wait or put it off until tomorrow, when you can be enjoying it today, because quite frankly you can never be certain tomorrow will ever come. I watch 3-5 movies a week. Reading that you have put off watching them for 5 years makes me feel slightly ill - you need to crack on with your plans!"

On the other hand, you might live to 95 and outlive your money. I had a great time all of my life and had no trouble spending, for this hobby, and others. I was really over the top on this hobby for decades. I've hugely slowed down. Now there has to be a 'value' component involved in my buying decisions. I don't want to sound like I'm not still a subjectivist audiophile, because I am ... that's for life, but I've gotten much more careful how I spend. Thought sure I'd be dead by now, but I'm still kickin' so gotta keep some money around for really old age.

Last edited by Scotth3886; 09-05-2017 at 09:23 AM.
Scotth3886 is online now  
post #1365 of 1494 Old 09-06-2017, 04:01 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
thebland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Detroit, Michigan USA
Posts: 25,746
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1664 Post(s)
Liked: 1003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
My view is this. Without wishing to sound too depressive, I've had two friends pass away recently - 41 and 43 respectively - young, active healthy people. My point is you never know when your number is going to be up, so my philosophy is, if its something you really enjoy and you can enjoy it without going massively in debt, than crack on with it. Don't wait or put it off until tomorrow, when you can be enjoying it today, because quite frankly you can never be certain tomorrow will ever come. I watch 3-5 movies a week. Reading that you have put off watching them for 5 years makes me feel slightly ill - you need to crack on with your plans!

That said, I suspect you may be spending unnecessarily in a number of areas, and if you want to save money there are a number of areas to do it.

- You don't need a baffle wall for the M2's, so you could drop that; if the baffle wall is to also mount an AT screen, a simple wooden frame will suffice.
- If you get the SDP75, you can lose the SDEC, and even the SDA's if you wanted to, and utilise cheaper amps like ATI's.
- Forget the expensive acoustic treatment plan. If you've followed the discussion in this thread on Harmans approach to designing the M2's, they are designed to work without it. Personally I still like acoustic treatments, and I love the way my room sounds which is fairly heavily treated, but it can be done very cost effectively by purchasing ready made panels from the like of RPG, or making them yourself. In the bass region you're also far better putting that money into multiple subs at appropriate positions, and associated calibration, than trying to deal with bass issues using room treatments.
- Forget the expensive JBL cable loom, simply buy some Pro XLR cables, chop off the appropriate end, and wire them into the phoenix connectors. Half an hours work to save you $1300 there.
- Personally I'd forget the calibration too and run it yourself - this will come down to your own desire to do it though, and willingness to climb the steep learning curve required. Time is money, so you may prefer to free up your time, and spend the money, which is a fair trade - but bear in mind, change anything significant in the room, and you've got to have it done all over again.
... I'm pretty conservative financially and will only buy HT gear with cash - always have (except in college when I used student loan money to buy a used Aragon 4004 Amp). If I don't have the cash, I can't afford it.

That said... my 2 cents below:

Keep the mortgage... $150K is not a large mortgage, your rate is likely low and the monthly payment is likely 'small'. Moreover, you are likely getting a tax credit with the interest that you'd be giving up with your mortgage. Carrying some debt is OK with me - as long it is small, low interest and not credit card - e.g. mortgage debt.

Buy all the aforementioned gear if doing so:
Doesn't affect your day to day life, vacations, family expenses, etc
Your savings / 401K are in good shape - and are still able to put away some after tax income.
You can pay cash for the gear
You can do it right in the theater- don't skimp!


I'm flying out to CEDIA to see and hear all I can - but Art's Altitude / JBL (M2) set up was a compelling reason to go JBL. Very impressive!
SmittyJS and farsider3000 like this.

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
thebland is online now  
post #1366 of 1494 Old 09-12-2017, 05:30 PM
Senior Member
 
farsider3000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 315
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 223 Post(s)
Liked: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post
Lots of grey beards in this thread. What do you guys think:

Option 1
Pay off the remaining $150k I owe on my house. Cancel my M2 order for full refund. Sell the rest of my JBL gear: SDA amps, 708/705, and SDEC. Get a 65" or 77" OLED for the living room, new atmos SSP, and inexpensive surrounds. Revisit dedicated HT in a few years after both Harman and the video side have time to stabilize.

Option 2
Continue to wait for the builder to trim out my room with control room style angled baffle wall (to toe in the M2s). Elaborate acoustic treatment plan. 2' riser that eats up a lot of room height. Use my SDEC which is basically old tech now. I still need the $1500 JBL cable set for the SDEC (or DIY). Calibration is anywhere from $3k - $6k+ depending on who. SDP75 is "still fluid" but Harman isn't extending that to customers. It's fluid in that they are dropping things they said they were going to do, while adding new stuff, but then wanting to charge for the new stuff. I'm also not sure on the whole acoustic treatment situation. Kevin claims $500 Infinity speakers don't need any acoustic treatments. The treatments for my M2 + 7 series are extensive (and expensive).

^
On one hand, I feel like I need to take a step back. I ordered Dr Toole's book. No one has ever suggested Revel to me. I don't think I've ever heard a Revel speaker. I'm pretty sure I considered them because they were dome + waveguide, similar to Genelec, but I think they got cut from the short list because of output capability in a larg(ish) room for the home. The reason I liked the M2 was because it didn't have the harshness I normally associate with a compression drivers. It was also the cheapest speaker on the list of someone I consider "in the know". As far as JBL, even their competitors pay homage to the work Dr Toole has done. So it seemed like a safe choice.

The hold up for me has been the room. It's going to be ugly. That's what I told my HT (re)designer, so I can't blame him for the look. But my builder's delays have given me time to think. I'm not sure if I really want to drop a bunch of cash on an ugly room. My wife looks at it as an investment, but that would be for something that looks the part... not an all black room with rip your head off loud speakers. The other thing is my hold over system in the living room isn't that bad. Maybe I have just gotten used to it. Surround sound would be a plus. Wife doesn't want any boxes in the room, so no subs (which is why fuller range tower speakers are nice). I think I could upgrade that room and be happy with it.

But it seems like a waste not to use the big room in the basement. And price of everything keeps going up. Unless there is another economic crash, it should be cheaper for me to build now vs waiting. If I built (and equipped) now, I could also enjoy it now. I stopped watching movies shortly before I sold our last house, thinking why watch it on the current HT... wait 1yr and watch it on the new & better system. That was 5 years ago. I love movies, but other than the occasional block buster at IMAX, I have missed a lot of movies. I have seen a lot of TV shows. I watched Lost on a 24" computer monitor in my hold over apartment during construction. Breaking Bad on my 70" cheap Sony in the living room. I still enjoyed them for the story even though I am sure I had room modes, poor off axis performance, no acoustic treatments, etc. In the grand scheme of things, how much do I really need to spend to be happy? I think the answer is a whole lot less than what the marketing departments would have us believe.
I am only 48 and agree with the other responses that if you are not putting yourself in a financial crunch maybe don't go full bore into the original plan. But this sounds like your passion and you love to watch movies. Go for it but look at other options but don't settle for a living room theater with no subs!

If the room is ugly don't build it to that design. Stop everything. Create a simple design that keeps the sound in, has a proper riser height and screen height etc, forget ornate woodwork, hang some acoustic panels on sheetrock walls, paint it nicely and get the acoustics and video calibrated. There is a lot going on here but if you are anything like me it sounds like you may be a bit overwhelmed and you need to get a simple solution that will get you a kick butt video and sound experience (yes you need surround sound!). Don't give up!

Call my acoustic engineer, Nyal Mellor, and have him create a simple design for your room with a baffle wall. The baffle wall creates a simple clean look (if you do away with all the ornate woodwork I assume is in your room like most home theater designs). Hire a good contractor to build it for maybe $60,000 (could be a lot less depending on where you live).
MN Dan likes this.

Datasat LS10 with Atmos / DTS X and Dirac Live cards __ Parasound Halo A31, Parasound Zonemaster 1250 bridged, Parasound Zonemaster 450 bridged
Procella P8 LCR, Procella P5iw and P5v for surround/Atmos speakers __ JTR Captivator S2 front-center, Dual Seaton Submersive on side walls, JTR Captivator S1 center-rear
Screen: 2.40:1 Seymour XD, 128" diagonal / 118" wide __ Projector: JVC 4910

Last edited by farsider3000; 09-12-2017 at 06:32 PM.
farsider3000 is offline  
post #1367 of 1494 Old 09-12-2017, 06:26 PM
Senior Member
 
farsider3000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 315
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 223 Post(s)
Liked: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
OK, here is the short and sweet version. Official tallies to come, but going by a quick perusal of the score sheets and the conversation after the tests:

Saturday: Revel Salon2s preferred by about an 80% - 20% margin.

Sunday - Revel Salon2s preferred by about an 65% to 35% margin.

I will post more of my own thoughts later, but I am in agreement with the consensus. The M2s are great, the Salon2s are glorious

Thanks to all for participating! What a great time, seriously.
John,

I love that you put this comparison together! I have been thinking about going JBL Synthesis for my next theater in the next house.

Does Revel offer anything like the JBL SCL series for home theater but with a beryllium tweeter? And was Revel surprised at the results? Does the beryllium tweeter vs. the compression driver of the M2 create the foundation for the preference? I know the facts about dome tweeters not being able to product the decibel level of an actual jet but I bet most people do not listen at levels that require 110 dB peaks. I listen loud but I don't think the dynamic swings in my theater ever get above 95dB, based on my crude measurements, but maybe I am mistaken. Maybe to play at 95dB without distortion requires a compression driver / horn?

Datasat LS10 with Atmos / DTS X and Dirac Live cards __ Parasound Halo A31, Parasound Zonemaster 1250 bridged, Parasound Zonemaster 450 bridged
Procella P8 LCR, Procella P5iw and P5v for surround/Atmos speakers __ JTR Captivator S2 front-center, Dual Seaton Submersive on side walls, JTR Captivator S1 center-rear
Screen: 2.40:1 Seymour XD, 128" diagonal / 118" wide __ Projector: JVC 4910
farsider3000 is offline  
post #1368 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 09:02 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Snowmanick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,033
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 304 Post(s)
Liked: 428
@Floyd Toole I'm curious if you are familiar with the field of behavioral economics, especially in how people may choose between two similar options that present the same marginal utility?

The reason I ask is I recall you were giving some help to @John Schuermann when he was setting up the blind listening sessions and proposed having a third, lesser, speaker.

The part that brought me to this question is some behavioral economics studies have shown that if you present two similar products, a decision may be hard for the deciding party, but if you present a third, lesser option that is similar but identifiably inferior to one of the two superior products, a majority of people will pick the superior product that is most similar to the inferior one. Dan Ariely goes over this phenomenon is several of his books.

Tying this back into speakers and Harmon's research, have you found similar results?

If you were to, for example, have the M2's and Salon2's as John did, but put in the F206 or LSR705i in the third slot, would the groups results skew towards the Salon2's in the group with the F206 and towards the M2's in the group with the LSR705i?
popalock likes this.
Snowmanick is offline  
post #1369 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 10:01 AM
Advanced Member
 
NagysAudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 248 Post(s)
Liked: 61
The two speakers in the title sound lifeless and dry. It's more than just frequency response. And speakers shouldn't be flat. Microphones are very directional right where the ear is most sensitive, 2-5kHz. Speakers should have a BBC dip there if they are to sound any good. Listening to flat speakers makes one's ears hurt from excess energy in that region. And makes for a very flat not 3 dimensional soundstage.
NagysAudio is offline  
post #1370 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 10:40 AM
Oppo Beta Group
 
RichB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 10,263
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1267 Post(s)
Liked: 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post
The two speakers in the title sound lifeless and dry. It's more than just frequency response. And speakers shouldn't be flat. Microphones are very directional right where the ear is most sensitive, 2-5kHz. Speakers should have a BBC dip there if they are to sound any good. Listening to flat speakers makes one's ears hurt from excess energy in that region. And makes for a very flat not 3 dimensional soundstage.
Amps and speakers should be flat with minimal distortion.
Harman research has correllated preferred sound and good off axis performance.

If you want a dip, use a processor.

- Rich

Oppo UPD-205 | Sonica DAC | BDP-105D | HA-1 | PM-1 | Emotiva XMC-1 | ATI Signature AT6002 x 2 + AT6006 | Revel Salon2s, Voice2, Studio2s | Velodyne HGS-15 | LG 65C7 | Lumagen 2020
RichB is offline  
post #1371 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 10:41 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Snowmanick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,033
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 304 Post(s)
Liked: 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post
The two speakers in the title sound lifeless and dry. It's more than just frequency response. And speakers shouldn't be flat. Microphones are very directional right where the ear is most sensitive, 2-5kHz. Speakers should have a BBC dip there if they are to sound any good. Listening to flat speakers makes one's ears hurt from excess energy in that region. And makes for a very flat not 3 dimensional soundstage.
Having heard both speakers, I completely disagree with every point you make. They weren't dry, lifeless, painful or lacking dimensionality.
Snowmanick is offline  
post #1372 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 11:02 AM
Advanced Member
 
NagysAudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 248 Post(s)
Liked: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
Amps and speakers should be flat with minimal distortion.
Harman research has correllated preferred sound and good off axis performance.

If you want a dip, use a processor.

- Rich
You meant their marketing department correlated?
NagysAudio is offline  
post #1373 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 11:40 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 65
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post
You meant their marketing department correlated?
While I don't believe Harman research is done by their marketing department, I would love to see these results duplicated by other science and audio labs.

Science is science because it can be duplicated by others. And for others to duplicate and confirm results, they need to know all the details needed to run the experiments and confirm the data and the results.

Confirming that there is a correlation between Spinorama and user preference requires other labs to know how Harman calculated the quality metrics from these spinoramas. They can then run the blind test and confirm that spinorama quality metrics correlates with user preference as reported by Dr. Toole and others.

I understand that Harman labs can not release that information to protect its intellectual property. That is a shame as it is raising doubts on the validity of these correlations which are the basis of much Harman research.

I may be wrong here and would love to get corrected. Please do so without concern.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
PrimeTime likes this.
SouthernCA is offline  
post #1374 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 11:49 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 68
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 36
>> Microphones are very directional right where the ear is most sensitive, 2-5kHz.

Uh, have you looked at pickup pattern (polar or otherwise) of narrow-diameter mikes in that range??
davidrmoran is online now  
post #1375 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 12:00 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
andyc56's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,172
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
I understand that Harman labs can not release that information to protect its intellectual property. That is a shame as it is raising doubts on the validity of these correlations which are the basis of much Harman research.

I may be wrong here and would love to get corrected. Please do so without concern.
There is an ANSI standard for the spinorama. It is mentioned in section 12.1.1 in Dr. Toole's book (hope this link to Google Books works). The standard is ANSI/CTA-2034A, "Standard Method of Measurement for In-Home Loudspeakers".

The relevant information is all in the public domain.

Last edited by andyc56; 09-13-2017 at 12:23 PM.
andyc56 is offline  
post #1376 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 12:08 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 12,647
Mentioned: 291 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4117 Post(s)
Liked: 3435
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
While I don't believe Harman research is done by their marketing department, I would love to see these results duplicated by other science and audio labs.

Science is science because it can be duplicated by others. And for others to duplicate and confirm results, they need to know all the details needed to run the experiments and confirm the data and the results.

Confirming that there is a correlation between Spinorama and user preference requires other labs to know how Harman calculated the quality metrics from these spinoramas. They can then run the blind test and confirm that spinorama quality metrics correlates with user preference as reported by Dr. Toole and others.

I understand that Harman labs can not release that information to protect its intellectual property. That is a shame as it is raising doubts on the validity of these correlations which are the basis of much Harman research.

I may be wrong here and would love to get corrected. Please do so without concern.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
That's a pretty BOLD claim to challenge the validity of the correlations simply because you can't effectively duplicate the results due to lack of information. I hate it when I see posts of this nature, as even if the specific quality metrics were in fact provided to us by Harman, do you REALLY think someone is going to go through all that trouble just to CONFIRM the validity of the correlations?

It's kind of absurd really. But even if another entity did accomplish all the legwork to do such, if those results didn't appease the naysayers, then even more would show up calling out the validity for another reason. Audio is not like a prescription drug with 100% efficacy. It's not pure mathematics, so you can't expect as much.

European Models do not accept banana plugs
Belly of the Beast: Bass Bunker Theater
beastaudio is online now  
post #1377 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 12:14 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Naples, FL
Posts: 199
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 142 Post(s)
Liked: 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post
The two speakers in the title sound lifeless and dry. It's more than just frequency response. And speakers shouldn't be flat. Microphones are very directional right where the ear is most sensitive, 2-5kHz. Speakers should have a BBC dip there if they are to sound any good. Listening to flat speakers makes one's ears hurt from excess energy in that region. And makes for a very flat not 3 dimensional soundstage.
I worked as a recording engineer for over 30 years. I respectfully disagree with everything you said.
RichB, rsg_1, gsr and 1 others like this.

Last edited by Rex Anderson; 09-13-2017 at 12:18 PM.
Rex Anderson is online now  
post #1378 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 12:23 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
torii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 3,186
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1485 Post(s)
Liked: 798
speakers dont sound flat, music played sounds flat and that has to be from the recording engineer. most of the speakers we nitpick over sound very, very good. but the salon 2's are one of the least expensive to ever maker stereophiles A+ list...so that has to mean something...my beloved focal gets a B from stereophile...so salon 2's must do something the sopra 3's dont(which I thought were sublime). they rated sopra 3's same as my aria's B....which same as revel f208...so my point is salon 2's must be freaking super duper amazing...or stereophile reviewers just have favorites

I bet salon 2's just sound great.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5 Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
torii is online now  
post #1379 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 12:46 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 68
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 36
(Sorry, this is in response to SouthernCA)

I already posted earlier my horizontal radiation pattern measurements of the Infinity P362 compared with Harman's own.

Mine are somewhat more detailed by angle, without the same spatial bundling, while theirs are more detailed by frequency bundling. The measurement technologies employed could hardly be more different.

The similarity is quite good, better than good, I thought. I have every confidence that they are doing good and proper and repeatable (duplicable) measuring, and finally (not them, the industry) measuring the right thing, the thing that matters well above all else: radiation pattern.

Theirs is not original thinking by any means, but their quantifying of effects and blind testing of same represent very large milestones in the history of audio and speaker science, which is otherwise so often preposterous, comical, destructive, not just bogus, and has been for over 45y.

Last edited by davidrmoran; 09-13-2017 at 12:48 PM. Reason: explan
davidrmoran is online now  
post #1380 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 03:22 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 65
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
There is an ANSI standard for the spinorama. It is mentioned in section 12.1.1 in Dr. Toole's book (hope this link to Google Books works). The standard is ANSI/CTA-2034A, "Standard Method of Measurement for In-Home Loudspeakers".

The relevant information is all in the public domain.
Thanks for the info. However the missing piece is the equation to convert Spinorama data to speaker quality metrics which can then be correlated to user preference.

Was that not clear in my original post? Sorry about that.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
SouthernCA is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Speakers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off