Speaker Shootout - two of the most accurate and well reviewed speakers ever made - Page 47 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1381 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 03:25 PM
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I would like to see Harman setup this same test using both left and right speakers. How do you judge soundstage, imaging, etc. with just one speaker?
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post #1382 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by drewTT View Post
I would like to see Harman setup this same test using both left and right speakers. How do you judge soundstage, imaging, etc. with just one speaker?
according to their tests I dont think it matters. but I have heard some of their products and they sound like they are priced...no scam or overinflation imo...but the entire debate of best or top ten, i just cant answer...when I listened they were in running but just werent best imo obviously by what I bought...but I also thought my speakers sounded better than bw d3 with macintosh setup...so I guess it just depends on your brain/ears.

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post #1383 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
Thanks for the info. However the missing piece is the equation to convert Spinorama data to speaker quality metrics which can then be correlated to user preference.
That's in section 5.7 of the 3rd edition of Dr. Toole's book ("Closing the loop: Predicting Listener Preferences from Measurements").

BTW, the 3rd edition of the book is well worth reading, even if you've already read an earlier edition. It appears to be a substantial rewrite, extensively restructured, not just a few things changed here and there.
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post #1384 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewTT View Post
I would like to see Harman setup this same test using both left and right speakers. How do you judge soundstage, imaging, etc. with just one speaker?
They did the same test using 1 speaker, 2 speakers and 5 speakers. Speaker rankings didn't change; remained the same across all 3 tests. However, the more speakers used, the longer it took to end up with the same results. For those of us that haven't done similar comparisons, it isn't unreasonable to imagine that listening in stereo will yield different results than listening in mono. Being able to hear soundstage, imaging, etc. should count for something, right? When put to the test, that ended up not being the case.

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post #1385 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
That's in section 5.7 of the 3rd edition of Dr. Toole's book ("Closing the loop: Predicting Listener Preferences from Measurements").

BTW, the 3rd edition of the book is well worth reading, even if you've already read an earlier edition. It appears to be a substantial rewrite, extensively restructured, not just a few things changed here and there.

Have both the 2nd (Kindle) and 3rd (paperback) editions, and you're correct.


One thing - I'm missing pages 20-40 in my soft cover 3rd edition. Is anyone else? And Amazon still hasn't responded to my request to put up the 3rd Edition for Kindle. Still showing only the 1st Edition .

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post #1386 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
They did the same test using 1 speaker, 2 speakers and 5 speakers. Speaker rankings didn't change; remained the same across all 3 tests. However, the more speakers used, the longer it took to end up with the same results. For those of us that haven't done similar comparisons, it isn't unreasonable to imagine that listening in stereo will yield different results than listening in mono. Being able to hear soundstage, imaging, etc. should count for something, right? When put to the test, that ended up not being the case.
I was quite surprised at how much imaging and depth the Salon2's provided in mono during the shootout.
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post #1387 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post
I was quite surprised at how much imaging and depth the Salon2's provided in mono during the shootout.
i know all the non owners of jbl/harman stuff really dont give a care about mono...they want impressions of stereo. maybe I'm obtuse.
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post #1388 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
i know all the non owners of jbl/harman stuff really dont give a care about mono...they want impressions of stereo. maybe I'm obtuse.

Mono is for TESTING, we don't listen in mono unless the source is mono. And even then it is coming out of more than one speaker. Mono allows you to isolate the sonic characteristics of the speaker itself. For that matter, Harman did test in stereo and surround IIRC, but the results matched the mono testing. Don't get hung up on a test procedure.


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Have both the 2nd (Kindle) and 3rd (hardcover) editions, and you're correct.


One thing - I'm missing pages 20-40 in my hardcover 3rd edition. Is anyone else? And Amazon still hasn't responded to my request to put up the 3rd Edition for Kindle. Still showing only the 1st Edition .

I have those pages in my softcover edition. That sounds like a printing mistake; are they shipping you a new one?

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post #1389 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Mono is for TESTING, we don't listen in mono unless the source is mono. And even then it is coming out of more than one speaker. Mono allows you to isolate the sonic characteristics of the speaker itself. For that matter, Harman did test in stereo and surround IIRC, but the results matched the mono testing. Don't get hung up on a test procedure.





I have those pages in my softcover edition. That sounds like a printing mistake; are they shipping you a new one?
great point don...but if the same or similar imo(which im no1) they should publish advertise in stereo.

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post #1390 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
i know all the non qqbp of jbl/harman stuff really dont give a care about mono...they want impressions of stereo. maybe I'm obtuse.
I'm lucky, I own a bunch of Synthesis and Revel, plus I've been able to hear the tested speakers in several locations in stereo as well. So maybe those are throwing me off or causing me to be biased. That said, I really truly was impressed by how much imaging a single Salon2 (and M2's, to a slightly lesser extent) was able to accomplish. I don't feel (admittedly this is a guess) that listening/testing in stereo would have changed my impressions/rankings during the test.
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post #1391 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Just a quick note to let everyone know I'm back, but trying to enjoy the rest of a vacation. I will start posting here in a few days. Also working on a rewrite of my feature film script, so may not be posting as much as usual.

@R Harkness - why not have your dealer let you take home a pair of Revels so you can compare them at home? Get a blindfold and do a blind test of your own

Later, everyone...
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post #1392 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post
I'm lucky, I own a bunch of Synthesis and Revel, plus I've been able to hear the tested speakers in several locations in stereo as well. So maybe those are throwing me off or causing me to be biased. That said, I really truly was impressed by how much imaging a single Salon2 (and M2's, to a slightly lesser extent) was able to accomplish. I don't feel (admittedly this is a guess) that listening/testing in stereo would have changed my impressions/rankings during the test.
im no expert...but i feel testing as I use em is important at least mentally.

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post #1393 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Mono is for TESTING, we don't listen in mono unless the source is mono. And even then it is coming out of more than one speaker. Mono allows you to isolate the sonic characteristics of the speaker itself. For that matter, Harman did test in stereo and surround IIRC, but the results matched the mono testing. Don't get hung up on a test procedure.

It comes handy to test in mono to compare one speaker to another. Not a perfect test, but I did a trick with my Altitude to compare how a three-way speaker compared to a two-way for center channel dialogue and vocals extracted to the center for DSU. Call it expectation bias, but it led me to replace my center channel with a center tower matching my mains . PSB Imagine T3s, if anyone cares...

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I have those pages in my softcover edition. That sounds like a printing mistake; are they shipping you a new one?

Yes, Amazon's doing that now. I just have to return the original to them, which I can do with the preprinted return label as the original shipper is about 15 minutes from my house. One slight correction (mea culpa): it was actually was the paperback version, not hardcover.

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post #1394 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
That's in section 5.7 of the 3rd edition of Dr. Toole's book ("Closing the loop: Predicting Listener Preferences from Measurements").

BTW, the 3rd edition of the book is well worth reading, even if you've already read an earlier edition. It appears to be a substantial rewrite, extensively restructured, not just a few things changed here and there.
Thank you. I vaguely remember from Dr. Toole that this information was not public. Let me find that source if I can.

Thank you for your reference, I will look it up.


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post #1395 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Just a quick note to let everyone know I'm back, but trying to enjoy the rest of a vacation. I will start posting here in a few days. Also working on a rewrite of my feature film script, so may not be posting as much as usual.

@R Harkness - why not have your dealer let you take home a pair of Revels so you can compare them at home? Get a blindfold and do a blind test of your own

Later, everyone...
Hi John,

That would be fun. However, before I bother a dealer for an in-home audition I really have to be serious about buying - by that I mean the speakers first have to really grab me in the store audition and already have me feeling "I want these." The cheaper Revels really impressed me in terms of engineering competence especially for the money. The more expensive ones didn't suggest to me they were doing anything more that I'd like vs my Thiels, and were about as big, so it would seem a side-ways move at best. (Maybe my opinion would change if I had them at home, but again I don't want a dealer to go to that trouble if I'm not already enthusiastic).

I hope to hear the mighty Revel Salon 2 at the dealer near me (they weren't playing last time I was there - I'll have to wait until they are set up and playing, because I wouldn't have them do it just because I want to hear them).

All the best on your film script. I tried it when I was younger. Writing a script is much harder than many people may imagine! (And takes one heck of a sturdy constitution, given all the re-writing and ways a script may have to change from what you actually wanted to write).
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post #1396 of 1494 Old 09-13-2017, 10:29 PM
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post #1397 of 1494 Old 09-14-2017, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by drewTT View Post
I would like to see Harman setup this same test using both left and right speakers. How do you judge soundstage, imaging, etc. with just one speaker?

Exactly. This mono, and in this case, one speaker at a time, eliminates just about everything that's important and relevant to me when it comes to stereo listening (and enjoyment).
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post #1398 of 1494 Old 09-14-2017, 04:54 AM
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The mono vs. stereo has been explained multiple times. As stereo listeners for the most of their lives, they had the same formed biases prior to testing but the data from preference and perceived quality correlations pointed towards mono being functionally the same. In other words, the argument that people use on audio forums against measurements in favor of using your ears and having decades of personal experience is exactly what they did and had: many snowflake golden ears listened, they reported, and what was highly consistent among the reports was that stereo was unnecessary for prediction.

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post #1399 of 1494 Old 09-14-2017, 04:57 AM
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"Explained" true, but still disagree. That's life
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post #1400 of 1494 Old 09-14-2017, 05:16 AM
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By continually pushing that singular viewpoint, you do realize that's very uncharitable to the work they've done?
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post #1401 of 1494 Old 09-14-2017, 05:20 AM
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Yep, as I said and will continue to say:

"Explained" true, but still disagree. That's life
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post #1402 of 1494 Old 09-14-2017, 05:27 AM
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As well as tiresome to keep reading over and over... IMHO, it's long past time to agree to disagree on the point and move on.
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post #1403 of 1494 Old 09-14-2017, 07:40 AM
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Speaker manufactures all seem to design and measure them in mono. Go figure


- Rich

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post #1404 of 1494 Old 09-14-2017, 09:32 AM
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Speaker manufactures all seem to design and measure them in mono. Go figure


- Rich
Tis also why I now listening to everything in mono. You want the purest of the pure presentation? Go mono or go home.
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post #1405 of 1494 Old 09-14-2017, 09:43 AM
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I really dislike listening in mono! For background music, sure. But if I'm going to bother sitting in front of a pair of speakers listening to nothing else, a sense of spaciousness is one of the things that draws me in. I love when a speaker system becomes something like a holo-deck, shape-shifting the space in my room to different venues.
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post #1406 of 1494 Old 09-14-2017, 10:47 PM
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Amps and speakers should be flat with minimal distortion.
Harman research has correllated preferred sound and good off axis performance.

If you want a dip, use a processor.

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You meant their marketing department correlated?
On what facts do you base this statement?
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post #1407 of 1494 Old 09-15-2017, 12:37 AM
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Somebody's turntable needs a bump because I'm pretty sure their needle is stuck.

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post #1408 of 1494 Old 09-15-2017, 07:43 AM
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As well as tiresome to keep reading over and over... IMHO, it's long past time to agree to disagree on the point and move on.
This thread has run it's course. Time to let it roll into vast AVS archives.
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post #1409 of 1494 Old 09-15-2017, 08:21 AM
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This thread has run it's course. Time to let it roll into vast AVS archives.
It may be true but there are so few threads that talk about science and magic of audio reproduction AND are frequented by Dr. Toole and Dr. Olive.

May be someone should create a thread that talks about that exclusively.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
It may be true but there are so few threads that talk about science and magic of audio reproduction AND are frequented by Dr. Toole and Dr. Olive.

May be someone should create a thread that talks about that exclusively.

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Well then Pony up cowboy! That someone could be you! Tag em in the first post and hope they giddyup and join ya.

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