How much power does the rp-450c really need? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 22 Old 08-09-2017, 05:43 PM - Thread Starter
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How much power does the rp-450c really need?

Hey folks, I posted this thread in the "receivers" section too, since it's largely about that. But I thought here was also appropriate...

I picked up a free Denon 1612 a month ago, it's been working fine with my 5.1 setup so far: Klipsch RP-160m's, RP-250c, and some old Wharfedale Valdus 300.

I've recently been pondering an upgrade to the 450c, just because at times the center can sound a little too boxed-in, but mostly because it's big enough for me to place my tv on top of. Many of the reps over at Klipsch (you can look at all the comments+replies at the bottom of this: http://www.klipsch.ca/blog/klipsch-r...e-ii-speakers)) say the 450c needs a more powerful receiver, ones that are in a higher range (much higher than the 75w the Denon advertises (The **OFFICIAL** Denon AVR-XX12 Model Owner's Thread))

Question:
1. What's the verdict, would my receiver really be underpowering the 450c, given I am running the full 5 channels with the 1612?

2. Given the receiver I have (I have no interest in upgrading), how much of an upgrade does the 450c become?

3. Regardless of receiver, how much of an upgrade is the 450c really? Given I am only using the 160m bookshelf as my front speakers, is the 250c one to keep? Am I just being hit with the upgrade-bug?

As for the 440c? The 450c is big enough for my tv to sit on top of, which is one of the big reasons i'm even considering upgrading.

Thanks in advance

To add:
Speaker specs here:
(450c http://assets.klipsch.com/product-sp...Spec-Sheet.pdf )
(250c http://assets.klipsch.com/product-sp...Spec-Sheet.pdf )
(160m http://assets.klipsch.com/product-sp...Spec-Sheet.pdf )

Last edited by gygess; 08-09-2017 at 06:10 PM.
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post #2 of 22 Old 08-10-2017, 05:31 AM
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The 450 actually has a higher sensitivity than your current 250, so it should be fine. It claims it reaches 97dB on 1W, which is very loud. Most people only use a fraction of the wattage available to drive speakers.

Other than that, you might get a fuller sound with the addition of 2 extra woofers. The center channel is the most important speaker in the whole setup, so if you were to go all out on one it would be that one.

That being said, you might be able to solve your issues with some EQing. Have you ever ran audyssey on the receiver before?

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post #3 of 22 Old 08-10-2017, 07:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by starshipvelcro View Post
The 450... claims it reaches 97dB on 1W, which is very loud.
It's not only very loud, it's also impossible with the driver configuration it has. 91dB/w would probably be accurate. Where sensitivity ratings are concerned the guys at Klipsch have their thumbs on the scale.

Addressing the OP's question, as good a guideline as any is that your receiver should have between one half and twice the power as the speaker rating. One half power should be enough to drive them as loud as they can go cleanly, up to twice the power will give the amps more headroom.
As to going to the 450, it would have 6dB more maximum output than the 250, which is a good thing, but it would also have narrower dispersion, which may or may not be an issue.
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post #4 of 22 Old 08-10-2017, 07:58 AM
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If you have sub(s) and crossing over at 80hz you should have no trouble driving your speakers to very loud levels. If you're running your speakers full range (no sub) and listen at reference level that's where your AVR may run out off gas and get extremely hot.
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post #5 of 22 Old 08-10-2017, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
It's not only very loud, it's also impossible with the driver configuration it has. 91dB/w would probably be accurate. Where sensitivity ratings are concerned the guys at Klipsch have their thumbs on the scale.

Addressing the OP's question, as good a guideline as any is that your receiver should have between one half and twice the power as the speaker rating. One half power should be enough to drive them as loud as they can go cleanly, up to twice the power will give the amps more headroom.
As to going to the 450, it would have 6dB more maximum output than the 250, which is a good thing, but it would also have narrower dispersion, which may or may not be an issue.
Not disputing what you are saying, just asking why you say the 450C will have a narrower dispersion than the 250C.

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post #6 of 22 Old 08-10-2017, 08:52 AM
 
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The angle of dispersion is inversely proportional to the size of the radiating plane. This shows how it works, the slit on the 'box' representing the size of a single driver, or the total width of a number of drivers:
http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/f...tionslider.swf

Since the width of the 450 woofers is almost twice that of the 250 their dispersion angle will be nearly halved compared to the 250.

Your next question should be "does this mean that multiple drivers shouldn't be put side by side?" The answer is yes, but if you don't have room under the TV for a vertically aligned multiple driver cab and a single driver cab doesn't have adequate output then you have to make that compromise.
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post #7 of 22 Old 08-10-2017, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raceredmustang View Post
Not disputing what you are saying, just asking why you say the 450C will have a narrower dispersion than the 250C.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
The angle of dispersion is inversely proportional to the size of the radiating plane. This shows how it works, the slit on the 'box' representing the size of a single driver, or the total width of a number of drivers:
http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/f...tionslider.swf

Since the width of the 450 woofers is almost twice that of the 250 their dispersion angle will be nearly halved compared to the 250.

Your next question should be "does this mean that multiple drivers shouldn't be put side by side?" The answer is yes, but if you don't have room under the TV for a vertically aligned multiple driver cab and a single driver cab doesn't have adequate output then you have to make that compromise.
This is big news to me, since I thought the 450c would be nicer for people sitting off center. As it is, I would certainly like my center to output as wide as possible since I have 3-5 people watching at a time in my living room. It's certainly a reason to consider sticking with my 250c.

Bill, as for absolute vocal clarity (rather than something like timber/tone-matching the front 3) is there any advantage sticking to something like a rp-250c rather than potentially making room for a third rp-160m?

At this point in time I couldn't fit a bookshelf under the tv, but re-making a tv-stand + getting a second pair of rp-160m (and just using one of them as a center) would potentially come out cheaper than upgrading to a rp-450c. Keeping my 250c, if the vocal clarity would be superior to a third rp-160m, would be even cheaper ($0)!

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post #8 of 22 Old 08-10-2017, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by starshipvelcro View Post
The 450 actually has a higher sensitivity than your current 250, so it should be fine. It claims it reaches 97dB on 1W, which is very loud. Most people only use a fraction of the wattage available to drive speakers.

Other than that, you might get a fuller sound with the addition of 2 extra woofers. The center channel is the most important speaker in the whole setup, so if you were to go all out on one it would be that one.

That being said, you might be able to solve your issues with some EQing. Have you ever ran audyssey on the receiver before?
Yes, I've ran audyssey. Perhaps a few tweaks may fix the issue, and I'd love if only had to come down to that. Though it's not clear what I would need to change..

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post #9 of 22 Old 08-10-2017, 03:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gygess View Post
Bill, as for absolute vocal clarity (rather than something like timber/tone-matching the front 3) is there any advantage sticking to something like a rp-250c rather than potentially making room for a third rp-160m?
The 250c might have a bit more output than the 160m, as the dual 5s have somewhat more cone area than a single 6, but output also depends on maximum cone excursion, which is an unknown quantity. I suggest rotating the 250c to a vertical position, aimed up a bit if required to put the tweeter on axis with the LP. If that works better you can mull finding a way to raise the TV enough for it to fit.
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post #10 of 22 Old 08-10-2017, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
The 250c might have a bit more output than the 160m, as the dual 5s have somewhat more cone area than a single 6, but output also depends on maximum cone excursion, which is an unknown quantity. I suggest rotating the 250c to a vertical position, aimed up a bit if required to put the tweeter on axis with the LP. If that works better you can mull finding a way to raise the TV enough for it to fit.
I've seen suggestions like this before, my only question is how this works if the speaker was designed to be horizontal

specifically: any panning scenes going from left to right or right to left would be going from up to down or down to up if I set the speaker vertical, no?

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post #11 of 22 Old 08-10-2017, 03:22 PM
 
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The 250c was designed to be horizontal only as far being able to fit under a TV is concerned. There's no panning of the center channel content.
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post #12 of 22 Old 08-10-2017, 05:09 PM
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It's been said many times that 3 identical speakers are best for LCR, and a traditional center is a compromised design for easier placement. I recently switched to 3 Paradigm 15B's and it sounds really good. When sounds go from one side across the middle to the other side, it's seamless and awesome, such as a car racing by. I've had no problems with dynamics in my room with 3 bookshelf speakers and a sub, but if I had a larger room I'd maybe go with 2 subs and 3 Paradigm 75F or 85F towers for the extra drivers and dynamics. I wouldn't go back to a regular center speaker again, I like 3 of the same better.

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post #13 of 22 Old 08-11-2017, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
The angle of dispersion is inversely proportional to the size of the radiating plane. This shows how it works, the slit on the 'box' representing the size of a single driver, or the total width of a number of drivers:
http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/f...tionslider.swf

Since the width of the 450 woofers is almost twice that of the 250 their dispersion angle will be nearly halved compared to the 250.

Your next question should be "does this mean that multiple drivers shouldn't be put side by side?" The answer is yes, but if you don't have room under the TV for a vertically aligned multiple driver cab and a single driver cab doesn't have adequate output then you have to make that compromise.
I spoke to a CSR at Klipsch. He stated that would not really apply, as their centers are 90x90 horn loaded.

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post #14 of 22 Old 08-11-2017, 07:14 AM
 
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The tweeter is 90x90 horn loaded. The woofers are not. Not only will the dispersion angle of the 250c below the 1800Hz crossover frequency be less than half horizontally placed versus vertical, there will also be comb filtering from the woofers above the frequency where they're spaced more than one wavelength apart center to center. That distance appears to be roughly one foot, so combing will occur from about 1100Hz.

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post #15 of 22 Old 08-11-2017, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Williams2 View Post
It's been said many times that 3 identical speakers are best for LCR, and a traditional center is a compromised design for easier placement. I recently switched to 3 Paradigm 15B's and it sounds really good. When sounds go from one side across the middle to the other side, it's seamless and awesome, such as a car racing by. I've had no problems with dynamics in my room with 3 bookshelf speakers and a sub, but if I had a larger room I'd maybe go with 2 subs and 3 Paradigm 75F or 85F towers for the extra drivers and dynamics. I wouldn't go back to a regular center speaker again, I like 3 of the same better.
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The tweeter is 90x90 horn loaded. The woofers are not. Not only will the dispersion angle of the 250c below the 1800Hz crossover frequency be less than half horizontally placed versus vertical, there will also be comb filtering from the woofers above the frequency where they're spaced more than one wavelength apart center to center. That distance appears to be roughly one foot, so combing will occur from about 1100Hz.
Thanks for all the advice,

If I can somehow think of a placement solution, I will try vertical 250c; as for any potential upgrades to the center, I'm pretty sold that any upgrade I would do in the future would have to be something like a third 160m. It'll be hard to physically fit, and it will be impossible to source a single bookshelf, but it seems to me that this would be the only upgrade worth considering in the future.

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post #16 of 22 Old 09-19-2017, 06:13 PM
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Thanks for all the advice,

If I can somehow think of a placement solution, I will try vertical 250c; as for any potential upgrades to the center, I'm pretty sold that any upgrade I would do in the future would have to be something like a third 160m. It'll be hard to physically fit, and it will be impossible to source a single bookshelf, but it seems to me that this would be the only upgrade worth considering in the future.
Did you decide to go with the 450c? I am getting ready to upgrade from my Primus setup to the Klipsch RP line. I will be getting the 280 towers because I have cats. I can't decide what to use for a center though: 160m, 250c, or 450c. I can find all "open box" for $387, $238, and $450 respectively. I'd hate to buy a pair of the bookshelves though to just have one sit around. I only need to cover a 3 person couch. Have you tried the 250c vertically yet?
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post #17 of 22 Old 09-19-2017, 11:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gmentals View Post
Did you decide to go with the 450c? I am getting ready to upgrade from my Primus setup to the Klipsch RP line. I will be getting the 280 towers because I have cats. I can't decide what to use for a center though: 160m, 250c, or 450c. I can find all "open box" for $387, $238, and $450 respectively. I'd hate to buy a pair of the bookshelves though to just have one sit around. I only need to cover a 3 person couch. Have you tried the 250c vertically yet?
No I decided against it. It's just too large and expensive (for my setup).

If you're going with the 280 towers, I don't really know if the 250c is good enough for that setup, and I don't think an rp-160m is the answer either. You'll want a center speaker that can keep up and be on a similar level to those 280s.

I see two options for you,
1) I think the 450c is the center channel you would really need if you're getting the 280s. Though some people say the 440c is pretty close to the 450c, so you may be able to get by with that.

2) The other option, if you're really just trying to cover a 3 person couch, AND if money is short, is to skip the center channel entirely. It's called "phantom center", and a few people have success with it, some even swear by it... If you're sitting centered mostly, and since you say it's just one couch, you may be able to get away with it okay.

Obviously this won't work in certain cases: if you're using a big screen, then you would want a center channel to fill in the larger seperation of the left and right speaker. And if you have people sitting off far to the sides (if your 3 person couch is excessively long for some reason), you would want a center channel to anchor dialog for those wide listening positions.
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post #18 of 22 Old 09-20-2017, 09:03 PM
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No I decided against it. It's just too large and expensive (for my setup).

If you're going with the 280 towers, I don't really know if the 250c is good enough for that setup, and I don't think an rp-160m is the answer either. You'll want a center speaker that can keep up and be on a similar level to those 280s.

I see two options for you,
1) I think the 450c is the center channel you would really need if you're getting the 280s. Though some people say the 440c is pretty close to the 450c, so you may be able to get by with that.

2) The other option, if you're really just trying to cover a 3 person couch, AND if money is short, is to skip the center channel entirely. It's called "phantom center", and a few people have success with it, some even swear by it... If you're sitting centered mostly, and since you say it's just one couch, you may be able to get away with it okay.

Obviously this won't work in certain cases: if you're using a big screen, then you would want a center channel to fill in the larger seperation of the left and right speaker. And if you have people sitting off far to the sides (if your 3 person couch is excessively long for some reason), you would want a center channel to anchor dialog for those wide listening positions.
Thanks for your input. I ordered the 250C for now. I've never heard Klipsch speakers before, so this will give me a chance to see if I like them. If I do, Ill get the 450. I won't be getting the towers for a few months either way.
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post #19 of 22 Old 09-20-2017, 10:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for your input. I ordered the 250C for now. I've never heard Klipsch speakers before, so this will give me a chance to see if I like them. If I do, Ill get the 450. I won't be getting the towers for a few months either way.
If you haven't ordered the towers yet, consider if the RP-250F would be okay given your cat situation. I'm not sure if you meant you were getting the 280s specifically because of the cats (maybe cause it's heavier), or if you meant you're getting towers in general- because of cats.

The 250Fs would go great with the 250c center speaker. Definitely a good match there.

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post #20 of 22 Old 09-20-2017, 10:23 PM
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If you haven't ordered the towers yet, consider if the RP-250F would be okay given your cat situation. I'm not sure if you meant you were getting the 280s specifically because of the cats (maybe cause it's heavier), or if you meant you're getting towers in general- because of cats.

The 250Fs would go great with the 250c center speaker. Definitely a good match there.
I specifically need heavier towers. One of my Primus towers(49lbs) has already been damaged by one of the cats jumping from it. Center upgrade Also my current P163 as a center doesn't cut it for clarity.
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post #21 of 22 Old 09-21-2017, 09:31 AM
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Hey folks, I posted this thread in the "receivers" section too, since it's largely about that. But I thought here was also appropriate...

I picked up a free Denon 1612 a month ago, it's been working fine with my 5.1 setup so far: Klipsch RP-160m's, RP-250c, and some old Wharfedale Valdus 300.

I've recently been pondering an upgrade to the 450c, just because at times the center can sound a little too boxed-in, but mostly because it's big enough for me to place my tv on top of. Many of the reps over at Klipsch (you can look at all the comments+replies at the bottom of this: http://www.klipsch.ca/blog/klipsch-r...e-ii-speakers)) say the 450c needs a more powerful receiver, ones that are in a higher range (much higher than the 75w the Denon advertises (The **OFFICIAL** Denon AVR-XX12 Model Owner's Thread))

Question:
1. What's the verdict, would my receiver really be underpowering the 450c, given I am running the full 5 channels with the 1612?

2. Given the receiver I have (I have no interest in upgrading), how much of an upgrade does the 450c become?

3. Regardless of receiver, how much of an upgrade is the 450c really? Given I am only using the 160m bookshelf as my front speakers, is the 250c one to keep? Am I just being hit with the upgrade-bug?

As for the 440c? The 450c is big enough for my tv to sit on top of, which is one of the big reasons i'm even considering upgrading.

Thanks in advance

To add:
Speaker specs here:
(450c http://assets.klipsch.com/product-sp...Spec-Sheet.pdf )
(250c http://assets.klipsch.com/product-sp...Spec-Sheet.pdf )
(160m http://assets.klipsch.com/product-sp...Spec-Sheet.pdf )
I upgraded my RP-250C to a 450C a little over a month ago, giving me plenty of time to form opinions. Keep in mind that my HT area is huge, with cathedral ceilings and an open floor plan to most of the 1st floor, plus half the 2nd floor. The MLP is around 16 ft. from the center channel speaker. I run a 5.1 with a Yamaha RX-A1060 @ 110/channel, 2 channels driven. My impressions:

The Yamaha has more than enough power to drive my system to very loud, yet clear levels. Changing from 250C to 450C resulted in lowering my normal volume level around 4-5 DB when watching TV. BTW, I was one of those told by a Klipsch CS rep that my AVR could not power the 450C.

I consider the 450C an enormous upgrade over the 250C. Dialogue is stronger and clearer, volume is greater and music in particular is much more detailed. The 450C gives an overall much larger scale to the soundtrack. I watched the Prince Special on Showtime the other day and was amazed at the quality of sound coming from the center. Drums and cymbals were especially good. Overall, changing to the 450C has transformed my HT system. In fairness to the 250C, I believe it is also a good piece, just overmatched by the size of my room.

I feel that dispersion is better with the 450C. My room is not only big, it is very wide. My wife likes to sit at the far right end of the room, probably at a 45 degree angle and 20 ft. from the center. When I had the 250C, she would often complain that she could not hear or understand the dialogue. I wound up lowering the volume of the fronts and rears and bumping up the center volume considerably, to try to compensate. I used to bump the Dialogue setting to 2 on the Yamaha AVR. With the 450C, I leave it at the YPAO speaker level settings and level 1 on the dialogue setting. I have yet to hear my wife tell me she cannot understand the dialogue. More often, she now asks me to turn it down.

The 450C is huge. It will not work for everyone. If you have the room, go for it. I had to go through a lot of hoops and expense to make it work in my living room. Now that it's done, I'm glad I did. Just wish I would have done so from the start.
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2 channel : Anthem Integrated 225, Monitor Audio Silver 8, PSA S1500, Marantz SA8005, Audioengine B1
HT: Yamaha RX-A1060, Klipsch RP-260, RP-450C, RTI A1, PSA V1500, Onkyo C-S5VL, Samsung JU7100

Last edited by raceredmustang; 09-21-2017 at 09:35 AM.
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post #22 of 22 Old 09-21-2017, 11:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by raceredmustang View Post
I upgraded my RP-250C to a 450C a little over a month ago, giving me plenty of time to form opinions. Keep in mind that my HT area is huge, with cathedral ceilings and an open floor plan to most of the 1st floor, plus half the 2nd floor. The MLP is around 16 ft. from the center channel speaker. I run a 5.1 with a Yamaha RX-A1060 @ 110/channel, 2 channels driven. My impressions:

The Yamaha has more than enough power to drive my system to very loud, yet clear levels. Changing from 250C to 450C resulted in lowering my normal volume level around 4-5 DB when watching TV. BTW, I was one of those told by a Klipsch CS rep that my AVR could not power the 450C.

I consider the 450C an enormous upgrade over the 250C. Dialogue is stronger and clearer, volume is greater and music in particular is much more detailed. The 450C gives an overall much larger scale to the soundtrack. I watched the Prince Special on Showtime the other day and was amazed at the quality of sound coming from the center. Drums and cymbals were especially good. Overall, changing to the 450C has transformed my HT system. In fairness to the 250C, I believe it is also a good piece, just overmatched by the size of my room.

I feel that dispersion is better with the 450C. My room is not only big, it is very wide. My wife likes to sit at the far right end of the room, probably at a 45 degree angle and 20 ft. from the center. When I had the 250C, she would often complain that she could not hear or understand the dialogue. I wound up lowering the volume of the fronts and rears and bumping up the center volume considerably, to try to compensate. I used to bump the Dialogue setting to 2 on the Yamaha AVR. With the 450C, I leave it at the YPAO speaker level settings and level 1 on the dialogue setting. I have yet to hear my wife tell me she cannot understand the dialogue. More often, she now asks me to turn it down.

The 450C is huge. It will not work for everyone. If you have the room, go for it. I had to go through a lot of hoops and expense to make it work in my living room. Now that it's done, I'm glad I did. Just wish I would have done so from the start.
Sounds like a great review. I'm surprised the dispersion is so much better, but It seems like your wife is noticing the difference.

Looks like the 450c is a great upgrade

Denon 1612 ; Klipsch RP-160m ; Klipsch RP-250c ; Wharfedale Valdus 300 ; Emotiva Basx s12
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