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post #1 of 15 Old 08-12-2017, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Integrated amp question

I know, I know. Posts like this should be directed to amps/receivers. But I posted this there months ago, and got no response. Thought I'd try here.

So, question is, when it comes to integrated amps, the cheap ones like onkyo 9010 or the yammy as301 or pioneer a20.....is the sound quality of these better than that of equal cost avrs? I'm asking because, if not, I'm not sure I see the point. What say you guys?

At the same price point, and assuming I don't need all the fancy connections and what not.
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post #2 of 15 Old 08-12-2017, 07:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Shawn Barrere View Post
is the sound quality of these better than that of equal cost avrs?
The sound quality, no, 0.1%THD is 0.1%THD, and for that matter you can't even hear 1%THD. If there's a difference it would probably be in the actual continuous power delivery. At the same price as the A-20, for instance, you can find 5.1 AVRs rated for 50wpc or more, but you'll only get the full output with two channels driven. It won't deliver it from all five channels. The other difference may be in the impedance load capacity. The A-20, for instance, is rated for 4 ohms, while the VSX-831 is only rated for 6 ohms.
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post #3 of 15 Old 08-12-2017, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Barrere View Post
I know, I know. Posts like this should be directed to amps/receivers. But I posted this there months ago, and got no response. Thought I'd try here.

So, question is, when it comes to integrated amps, the cheap ones like onkyo 9010 or the yammy as301 or pioneer a20.....is the sound quality of these better than that of equal cost avrs? I'm asking because, if not, I'm not sure I see the point. What say you guys?

At the same price point, and assuming I don't need all the fancy connections and what not.

I would repost a question;
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...ps-processors/


Like the previous answer you got from Bill.
Sound wise, it will be little, I personally think for this one, it should be higher, but not that much
That said, the difference between 2 channels been use or 5, can be very important.
In theory, most movies never use all 5 channels at the same time, but in real life, a few time the sound was so loud all around, I was Glad to have a power amp that produce full power to all channels


Ray
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post #4 of 15 Old 08-12-2017, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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So, then, there is little difference, performance wise, between me using an entry level integrated stereo amp or me using an entry level avr in 2.0.

So by buying an integrated amp or even a stereo receiver, I'm just pretty much paying the same amount of money, and getting basically the same performance, but giving up a bunch of free, included bells and whistles. Is this correct?

The reason I don't understand is that many of the integrated amps are listed as like 35 or 40 or 50wpc. But then the avrs all have the hyperinflated numbers "170wpc!!!!"(6ohms in fine print) etc. Is all of that info really just useless as well?
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post #5 of 15 Old 08-12-2017, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Shawn Barrere View Post
So, then, there is little difference, performance wise, between me using an entry level integrated stereo amp or me using an entry level avr in 2.0.

So by buying an integrated amp or even a stereo receiver, I'm just pretty much paying the same amount of money, and getting basically the same performance, but giving up a bunch of free, included bells and whistles. Is this correct?

The reason I don't understand is that many of the integrated amps are listed as like 35 or 40 or 50wpc. But then the avrs all have the hyperinflated numbers "170wpc!!!!"(6ohms in fine print) etc. Is all of that info really just useless as well?
If you don't need bells and whistles like atmos and 4k, you can get an $1000 original MSRP Integra with room correction, 100wpc and bass management for about the same or less than a 60wpc 2 channel amp without those feature. That being said, you should only consider adding an additional amp if you're not reaching the desired loudness from your current amp. Keep in mind though that if your receiver maxes out at 80wpc, you would need 160wpc for a 3db gain and your speakers will likely sound horrific and distort long before that.

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post #6 of 15 Old 08-12-2017, 09:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Hm. Well, for me, I'm just looking for a cheap something to push my nht s1 pair in my gym. But when looking at my options I'm wondering 1) if 40 or 50 or 60 watts on an integrated will push as well as "100" watts on an avr, and 2) will buying an integrated have absolutely no advantage over an avr, whereas an avr has plenty advantages over an IA.
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post #7 of 15 Old 08-12-2017, 10:09 PM
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Some people inevitably post something to the effect that the stereo amps must be better since the money can go just to the amp and not to all the bells and whistles. Those folks are ignorant of how very much production volumes affect pricing, and so what they are saying is not correct.

Advantages to AVRs for stereo application: may have room correction, built-in highpass crossover to allow correct subwoofer connection (i.e. taking the bass out of the main speakers to increase headroom of speakers and amp). Disadvantages: all the circuitry inside may have less pure sound.

Advantages to stereo: maybe more pure sound. Simpler to run. Disadvantage: seldom, unless vintage, can you properly connect a subwoofer.

Which has more power? All receivers are within a decibel or two or actual power into real speakers is my observation and belief. Probably a correctly rated (8 ohm, low THD) 100Wx2 stereo, from a good brand like Onkyo or Denon or etc., is your best bet, but really for real power you should have a real power amp. That's only if you really really crank it up with power hungry speakers.
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post #8 of 15 Old 08-12-2017, 10:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks head. No I don't need a ton of power, I have other rooms and receivers in my house for that. Decision made, for my gym, a cheap onkyo or yammy avr from a4l it is.
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post #9 of 15 Old 08-13-2017, 06:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by head_unit View Post
Some people inevitably post something to the effect that the stereo amps must be better since the money can go just to the amp and not to all the bells and whistles. Those folks are ignorant of how very much production volumes affect pricing, and so what they are saying is not correct.
+1. AVRs are, relatively speaking, dirt cheap. One reason why is economy of scale, the other is that the processors that are at the heart of all the bells and whistles are themselves dirt cheap.
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post #10 of 15 Old 08-13-2017, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Shawn Barrere View Post
...So, question is, when it comes to integrated amps.....is the sound quality of these better than that of equal cost avrs?
Why do you ask?

It is not so much dependent on AVR vs Stereo, but rather - what you are your priorities and what is it you need to do?

There are differences, for example -

2 Amp Channels vs 7 Amp Channels for a Fixed amount of money. 2 Amps for $500 vs 7 Amp for $500.

Stereo Class-A/B vs AVR Class-D


Then Power Supplies. AVRs tend to be under-rated, Stereo tend to be over-rated -

AVR = 700w = 500w Power Supply

Stereo = 200w = 300w Power Supply


Now there are logical reasons for this. In an AVR, the amp channels are not used equally. The bulk goes to the Front/Center, and less demands to the Surrounds. In a Stereo, the amp channel are used equally.

More than AVR vs Stereo, the true question are - how much do you have to spend, what you are priorities, and what is it you need done?

AVRs are very feature rich, but those features aren't free. The more you add to one area, the more you have to subtract from other areas to stay within a fixed price point.

So, it is the task at hand that needs to be served. I'm fond of saying -

If you want a Music System, then get a Music System; meaning a Stereo.

If you want a Movie System, then get a Movie System; meaning Surround Sound.


But, an AVR will still play music, and a Stereo can still make for some great movies ...but... what are your priorities? You (and your budget and circumstances) are where you will find the answer to the question - AVR vs Stereo. It is not an absolute thing. The real answer is - maybe ... it depends.

Myself, my priorities is Music, even though I watch a lot of movies. My budget is low and my space is relatively small, so I choose Stereo and will not be swayed from that until I win the Lottery. Even then I won't change, Music and Stereo will still be my priority. Though I will now have the money for a second system dedicated to movies. But the priority of Stereo doesn't go away.

Quote:
... I'm not sure I see the point. ... At the same price point, and assuming I don't need all the fancy connections and what not.
What point is it that you do not see?

Why buy a Sports Car? Why buy a Mini-Van? Well the answer is to serve the task at hand. You buy a Sports Car for fast efficient fun. You buy a Mini-Van for more utilitarian purposes.

Same with AVR vs Stereo, YOU determine this - you, your priorities, your circumstances, your space, your budget.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both, and there is no one definitive answer.

Steve/bluewizard
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post #11 of 15 Old 08-13-2017, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by head_unit View Post
Some people inevitably post something to the effect that the stereo amps must be better since the money can go just to the amp and not to all the bells and whistles. Those folks are ignorant of how very much production volumes affect pricing, and so what they are saying is not correct.

Advantages to AVRs for stereo application: may have room correction, built-in highpass crossover to allow correct subwoofer connection (i.e. taking the bass out of the main speakers to increase headroom of speakers and amp). Disadvantages: all the circuitry inside may have less pure sound.

Advantages to stereo: maybe more pure sound. Simpler to run. Disadvantage: seldom, unless vintage, can you properly connect a subwoofer.

Which has more power? All receivers are within a decibel or two or actual power into real speakers is my observation and belief. Probably a correctly rated (8 ohm, low THD) 100Wx2 stereo, from a good brand like Onkyo or Denon or etc., is your best bet, but really for real power you should have a real power amp. That's only if you really really crank it up with power hungry speakers.

For the bolted Highlight.


I will give you that most AVR are rated into one channel or two at the time, for the watts they can produce.
And production volume will affect the price of a product.
But then, I would assume an integrated amp, is more true, to the full to the real value of the kind of wattage you are getting.
Was it measure at 1000Hz, or through out the hole value of wattage 20-20000Hz.
I use amps for this last reason, use to own AVR, and will never go back again.


Ignorance is bliss, since my system never went into distortion since them


Ray
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post #12 of 15 Old 08-15-2017, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
For the bolted Highlight.


I will give you that most AVR are rated into one channel or two at the time, for the watts they can produce.
And production volume will affect the price of a product.
But then, I would assume an integrated amp, is more true, to the full to the real value of the kind of wattage you are getting.
Was it measure at 1000Hz, or through out the hole value of wattage 20-20000Hz.
I use amps for this last reason, use to own AVR, and will never go back again.


Ignorance is bliss, since my system never went into distortion since them


Ray
Ray, the question is about integrated amps, not power amps. You may not be using a traditional AVR, but you ARE using an Audio Visual Processor. That comes with all the good things MOST integrated amps don't have: expandability, bass management, sophisticated room-correction software, and the like.

I would take a $250, 90W AVR over a $250, 90W integrated amp every day (and twice on Sundays) for those reasons alone. Add in the ability to use a subwoofer, effectively giving the mains more useful power, and I would have a system that will blow the pants off the integrated amp (even before YPAO, MCACC, ARC, Audysee, etc)...
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post #13 of 15 Old 08-15-2017, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
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See, and that's the impression I was getting. Just for my gym.....at the 200 price range I could get something like the yamaha rs500, or the onkyo 8160.....or I can get an avr like the pioneer elite 45, or the denon s530bt. So, if the price is the same or close, and the audio quality isn't noticeably better, why would I take the stereo receiver or integrated over the avr?

The answer I seem to be getting is I wouldn't. At that price, the integrated, or stereo, is essentially the same as the avr but with less options like Bluetooth and WiFi and room correction. It seems to be that I can have a specific model car fully loaded, or the same model at base level, and they cost the same. What to choose? Hm.
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post #14 of 15 Old 08-15-2017, 08:23 PM
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Ray, the question is about integrated amps, not power amps. You may not be using a traditional AVR, but you ARE using an Audio Visual Processor. That comes with all the good things MOST integrated amps don't have: expandability, bass management, sophisticated room-correction software, and the like.

I would take a $250, 90W AVR over a $250, 90W integrated amp every day (and twice on Sundays) for those reasons alone. Add in the ability to use a subwoofer, effectively giving the mains more useful power, and I would have a system that will blow the pants off the integrated amp (even before YPAO, MCACC, ARC, Audysee, etc)...

Cannot disagree on this one.


AVR, offer a lot more for the money, for processing.
And I was not trying to compare an amp, to an integrated amp, just trying to say power wise, they might be similar for power wise, nothing else
The reason of their cost, and mostly use for Stereo music only.


That said, like you mention, I do have power amps and use an AVP.
Power amps, never need to be replace.
But replacing the AVP, can be very expensive, when new format arrive
For most user, an AVR is the best way to go.


Amps and AVP, is not for everyone.


Ray
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post #15 of 15 Old 08-16-2017, 03:28 AM
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Again, in an AVR, you get a lot of useful features - Bass Management, Room EQ, Network Streaming, etc... but those don't come for free even if you consider Economics of Scale. A $500 Stereo amp is a better amp than a $500 AVR. But, it depends on how you define good. The AVR is good in that it offers a lot for the money, but again all the LOT does not come for free. If you add more in one area, then you have to sacrifice in other areas to hit a certain price point.

There are many who buy AVR strictly for Stereo listening, because they do get all the features mentioned above. The two most important being Sub/Front Bass Managment and Network Streaming. But those AVR Class-D amps are not the equal of a Class-A/B Stereo amp. Though today, Class-D have come along way, and sound pretty good. But I hold to my point.

So, once again, it is not about AVR vs Stereo, it is about - What do you want to do and what are your priorities? Like I said, many people buy AVRs strictly for Stereo listening. For them, the many features are the selling point.

But equally for others with different priorities, they choose Stereo to concentrate their money where it counts, in the amps.

There is no one right answer. Serve yourself and your needs. If you decide to buy a AVR for Stereo listening, no one will fault you, as long as you know what you are getting. Equally if you reject the AVR in favor of a Stereo System, not one will complain about that ... as long as you understand what you are getting.

One thing that has to be considered is Budget. In the mid-range of $500 to $1500, it is something of a toss up between Stereo and AVR, to each his own. But as you start dropping below $500, in my opinion, the quality of the AVRs starts to drop fast. There are some Sub $500 Stereo I would recommend, but few to no AVRs. But again, that's a decision for the Buyer to make.

Because there is no absolute answer in the AVR vs Stereo question, we need to refocus on the USER and his wants, needs, and priorities. Certainly there are those here who will push for AVR, can't fault that choice. Myself, habitually, I will advocate for Stereo. But, the End Users has to set his own priorities. We can tell you want the possibilities are and the pros and cons of each, but we can't tell you want to do. The final decision falls squarely in the lap of the End User.

We can't tell you what to do, we can only tell you want can be done and why. The final decision is up to you.

Steve/bluewizard
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