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post #1 of 34 Old 08-18-2017, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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pioneer SP-C21

I was given this center channel. What a beast it is too.. Its bigger than my polk monitors.. One problem ... The tweeter doesn't work. Now i don't want to violate any rules but anyone recommend a tweeter to replace the old one with? possible?
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post #2 of 34 Old 08-18-2017, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by tempestwolf View Post
I was given this center channel. What a beast it is too.. Its bigger than my polk monitors.. One problem ... The tweeter doesn't work. Now i don't want to violate any rules but anyone recommend a tweeter to replace the old one with? possible?
A quality tweeter would likely cost you as much as this entire speaker on ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/i/122633169061?chn=ps&dispItem=1

But you could contact Parts Express as they carry tons of tweeters.

Geoff A. J., California
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post #3 of 34 Old 08-18-2017, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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A quality tweeter would likely cost you as much as this entire speaker on ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/i/122633169061?chn=ps&dispItem=1

But you could contact Parts Express as they carry tons of tweeters.
Ill have to remove it and see if one of my 1 inch polks will fit right in then ill know what to really look for. I did look at tweeters and i was like they are defiantly expensive my old ar center couldn't handle batman and i blew it out . my polks had no issues i use big bookshelves on my 7.1 so i figured sweet a monster sized center would be perfect . looks like the tweeter is about the same size as the polk ones. ill check after my vacation. id love to resurrect this monster

Thank you for the reply! If that doesn't work ill just end up buying a new one if i cant find a tweeter
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post #4 of 34 Old 08-18-2017, 12:33 PM
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I was given this center channel. What a beast it is too.. Its bigger than my polk monitors.. One problem ... The tweeter doesn't work.
Count your blessings...the Pioneer AJ center is probably the single most complained about speaker on this forum. I would just avoid the hassle of trying to replace a crappy tweeter that doesn't work with a brand new crappy tweeter that does, and simply order a decent center speaker...as little as $120 for a BIC FH-6LCR or $200 for an Aperion Intimus 5C or RBH R56Ci on clearance.
https://rbhsound.com/bstock-r56ci.php

Remember, the center does 70-80% of the output during HT, so it's precisely where you least want to cut corners if HT is your main usage.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #5 of 34 Old 08-18-2017, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tempestwolf View Post
I was given this center channel. What a beast it is too.. Its bigger than my polk monitors.. One problem ... The tweeter doesn't work.
Count your blessings...the Pioneer AJ center is probably the single most complained about speaker on this forum. I would just avoid the hassle of trying to replace a crappy tweeter that doesn't work with a brand new crappy tweeter that does, and simply order a decent center speaker...as little as $120 for a BIC FH-6LCR or $200 for an Aperion Intimus 5C or RBH R56Ci on clearance.
https://rbhsound.com/bstock-r56ci.php

Remember, the center does 70-80% of the output during HT, so it's precisely where you least want to cut corners if HT is your main usage.
Well then! glad it doesn't work!
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post #6 of 34 Old 08-18-2017, 01:42 PM
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Well then! glad it doesn't work!
There are countless threads of people asking upgrade advice from Pioneer speakers, especially the C22. Your better off getting something else than wasting money fixing a speaker not really worth fixing. Any of Zorba's recommendations will easily outperform the Pioneer. You have a lot of other options as well, just depends on your budget.

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post #7 of 34 Old 08-18-2017, 04:57 PM
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There are countless threads of people asking upgrade advice from Pioneer speakers, especially the C22. Your better off getting something else than wasting money fixing a speaker not really worth fixing. Any of Zorba's recommendations will easily outperform the Pioneer. You have a lot of other options as well, just depends on your budget.
First, this is the C21, not the C22. Second, at least one of the centers Zorba mentions is far less accurate than the C22, and I suspect the C21. That's based on my work with one of those centers mentioned and also the first generation 21 series monitor, which was actually superior to the bs22 that followed. Assuming the tweeter is actually fried (and it's not a loose connection or a fried crossover part), it's worth trying this tweeter as a replacement: https://www.parts-express.com/peerless-by-tymphany-bc25tg15-04-1-silk-dome-tweeter--264-1040 I use it in my mod of the C22, and many people have used it as an upgrade in the C21. It should really have a revised crossover, but I don't think the perfect should be the enemy of the pretty good.
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post #8 of 34 Old 08-18-2017, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
There are countless threads of people asking upgrade advice from Pioneer speakers, especially the C22. Your better off getting something else than wasting money fixing a speaker not really worth fixing. Any of Zorba's recommendations will easily outperform the Pioneer. You have a lot of other options as well, just depends on your budget.


First, this is the C21, not the C22. Second, at least one of the centers Zorba mentions is far less accurate than the C22, and I suspect the C21. That's based on my work with one of those centers mentioned and also the first generation 21 series monitor, which was actually superior to the bs22 that followed. Assuming the tweeter is actually fried (and it's not a loose connection or a fried crossover part), it's worth trying this tweeter as a replacement: https://www.parts-express.com/peerle...eter--264-1040 I use it in my mod of the C22, and many people have used it as an upgrade in the C21. It should really have a revised crossover, but I don't think the perfect should be the enemy of the pretty good.
I am still going to look and see!
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post #9 of 34 Old 08-19-2017, 07:07 AM
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First, this is the C21, not the C22. Second, at least one of the centers Zorba mentions is far less accurate than the C22, and I suspect the C21. That's based on my work with one of those centers mentioned
I have to say, I was surprised by your findings with the BIC FH6-LCR...that you found it to be lacking in accuracy in terms of having peaks and precipitous roll-offs at both ends of the spectrum didn't surprise me, but in terms of FUNCTIONAL voice clarity in rendering dialogue I've yet to read of anyone on this forum upgrading from the C22 to the FH6-LCR who didn't find it to be a huge improvement in terms of simply being able to understand dialogue, which is the first priority in choosing a center speaker at such a low $120 pricepoint. I don't doubt that the Aperion or RBH centers at the $200 pricepoint measure better and provide more tonal accuracy in additional to functional voice clarity, though.

Am curious, do you know if the C21 has different drivers/hardware than the C22? I tend to assume that these model number changes are largely cosmetic, but I could be wrong.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #10 of 34 Old 08-19-2017, 07:29 AM
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Strange, I never have a problem understanding dialog with my Pias, and, for music, I think they sound great for they money.


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post #11 of 34 Old 08-19-2017, 08:34 AM
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I have to say, I was surprised by your findings with the BIC FH6-LCR...that you found it to be lacking in accuracy in terms of having peaks and precipitous roll-offs at both ends of the spectrum didn't surprise me, but in terms of FUNCTIONAL voice clarity in rendering dialogue I've yet to read of anyone on this forum upgrading from the C22 to the FH6-LCR who didn't find it to be a huge improvement in terms of simply being able to understand dialogue, which is the first priority in choosing a center speaker at such a low $120 pricepoint. I don't doubt that the Aperion or RBH centers at the $200 pricepoint measure better and provide more tonal accuracy in additional to functional voice clarity, though.

Am curious, do you know if the C21 has different drivers/hardware than the C22? I tend to assume that these model number changes are largely cosmetic, but I could be wrong.
The drivers are completely different. The woofers are larger, and the tweeter is a different model. The response up through the midrange is great, but the tweeter has a dip in the highs, which is why I suggested the Vifa unit. A center channel has two functions--to make dialog understandable, and to make the dialog realistic. I guess I weight the latter more than you do. Also, most of the C22's I've worked with have measured quite well and were capable of reasonably clear voice reproduction. A small percentage had out-of-spec tweeters that would in fact make for some murky dialog. I can't help thinking we're hearing from the people who got the problem tweeters.
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post #12 of 34 Old 08-19-2017, 08:50 AM
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A center channel has two functions--to make dialog understandable, and to make the dialog realistic. I guess I weight the latter more than you do.
Yes you do. Though I'm slowly coming around to the second function...have been using a single RBH R5Bi as my center lately, in vertical configuration, and quite happy with the results. Even considering getting one of the last R56Ci centers still available, a 3-way W-M-T-M-W design...but wondering if it would be a substantial upgrade over the vertical R5Bi. What do you think of W-M-T-M-W designs, btw? They claim to fix all the inherent disadvantages of the usual MTM design.

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Also, most of the C22's I've worked with have measured quite well and were capable of reasonably clear voice reproduction. A small percentage had out-of-spec tweeters that would in fact make for some murky dialog. I can't help thinking we're hearing from the people who got the problem tweeters.
That's very plausible, given how erratic QC must be at the kind of Asian factories where such inexpensive speakers come from. And I do notice there are a number of people who buy the Pioneer AJ setup that don't complain about the center at all.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #13 of 34 Old 08-19-2017, 10:34 AM
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A small percentage had out-of-spec tweeters that would in fact make for some murky dialog. I can't help thinking we're hearing from the people who got the problem tweeters.
Hmm... that could be a possibility.

Although at the same time, I did try a BS22 as a center as well, and it's not like it was an improvement. So either when I had them they all had QC problems, or it's simply preference with some people? I mean, when I had the C22, it wasn't like dialogue was unbelievably bad. But in general, it sounded like all of my Pioneers were playing inside paper bags.

So I never say the C22 is a bad speaker in comparison to the other Pioneers... just that as a whole, none of them worked very well with dialogue.... at least to my ears.
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post #14 of 34 Old 08-19-2017, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
I have to say, I was surprised by your findings with the BIC FH6-LCR...that you found it to be lacking in accuracy in terms of having peaks and precipitous roll-offs at both ends of the spectrum didn't surprise me, but in terms of FUNCTIONAL voice clarity in rendering dialogue I've yet to read of anyone on this forum upgrading from the C22 to the FH6-LCR who didn't find it to be a huge improvement in terms of simply being able to understand dialogue,
I go with the clarity + tonality (or realistic voices, whatever we want to call it) thing myself. Easy to find speakers with clarity (even my old tiny Sony htib center could manage clarity well enough). But tonality (and basically everything else, soundstage, bass, etc) was horrible. And that's the issue I find with most small speakers, clarity may be great, but voices simply don't sound realistic.

I do recall someone here (forget his name) who did try the C22 vs the Bic, and although he stated the Bic was clearer, still stuck with the C22 ... because it just sounded better in other ways to him. I think he eventually just upgraded to JBLs in the end.
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I am still going to look and see!
Dennis makes some great speakers so his suggestion on a very inexpensive tweeter replacement likely will solve your issue.

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post #16 of 34 Old 08-19-2017, 11:44 AM
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Strange, I never have a problem understanding dialog with my Pias, and, for music, I think they sound great for they money.
Yes, your Pioneer Elites look great and I've heard good things about them on AVS.

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post #17 of 34 Old 08-19-2017, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post
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Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
There are countless threads of people asking upgrade advice from Pioneer speakers, especially the C22. Your better off getting something else than wasting money fixing a speaker not really worth fixing. Any of Zorba's recommendations will easily outperform the Pioneer. You have a lot of other options as well, just depends on your budget.
First, this is the C21, not the C22. Second, at least one of the centers Zorba mentions is far less accurate than the C22, and I suspect the C21. That's based on my work with one of those centers mentioned and also the first generation 21 series monitor, which was actually superior to the bs22 that followed. Assuming the tweeter is actually fried (and it's not a loose connection or a fried crossover part), it's worth trying this tweeter as a replacement: https://www.parts-express.com/peerle...eter--264-1040 I use it in my mod of the C22, and many people have used it as an upgrade in the C21. It should really have a revised crossover, but I don't think the perfect should be the enemy of the pretty good.

If the tweeter is blown I will definitely look into it! Thank you Dennis!
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post #18 of 34 Old 08-19-2017, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tempestwolf View Post
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Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post
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Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
There are countless threads of people asking upgrade advice from Pioneer speakers, especially the C22. Your better off getting something else than wasting money fixing a speaker not really worth fixing. Any of Zorba's recommendations will easily outperform the Pioneer. You have a lot of other options as well, just depends on your budget.
First, this is the C21, not the C22. Second, at least one of the centers Zorba mentions is far less accurate than the C22, and I suspect the C21. That's based on my work with one of those centers mentioned and also the first generation 21 series monitor, which was actually superior to the bs22 that followed. Assuming the tweeter is actually fried (and it's not a loose connection or a fried crossover part), it's worth trying this tweeter as a replacement: https://www.parts-express.com/peerle...eter--264-1040 I use it in my mod of the C22, and many people have used it as an upgrade in the C21. It should really have a revised crossover, but I don't think the perfect should be the enemy of the pretty good.

If the tweeter is blown I will definitely look into it! Thank you Dennis!
What crossover? Do you have a link to that?
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post #19 of 34 Old 08-19-2017, 04:16 PM
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What crossover? Do you have a link to that?
Could you clarify the question a little? It sounds like you're surprised that the C21 even has a crossover (which it certainly does, and a pretty good one).
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post #20 of 34 Old 08-19-2017, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
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What crossover? Do you have a link to that?
Could you clarify the question a little? It sounds like you're surprised that the C21 even has a crossover (which it certainly does, and a pretty good one).
Misread the last part of your post.
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What's the easiest way to get the metal grill off without bending them?
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What's the easiest way to get the metal grill off without bending them?
Get a small pick tool -- start near the top and work around it slowly, gently pulling it out

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post #23 of 34 Old 08-21-2017, 07:19 AM - Thread Starter
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What's the easiest way to get the metal grill off without bending them?
Get a small pick tool -- start near the top and work around it slowly, gently pulling it out
oh cool thank you
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post #24 of 34 Old 08-21-2017, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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I checked the speaker after I got home and it is the tweeter. I attached a tweeter to the terminals and it worked. I guess I will be ordering that tweeter you sudjested dennis
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post #25 of 34 Old 08-21-2017, 12:00 PM
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I go with the clarity + tonality (or realistic voices, whatever we want to call it) thing myself. Easy to find speakers with clarity (even my old tiny Sony htib center could manage clarity well enough). But tonality (and basically everything else, soundstage, bass, etc) was horrible. And that's the issue I find with most small speakers, clarity may be great, but voices simply don't sound realistic.

I do recall someone here (forget his name) who did try the C22 vs the Bic, and although he stated the Bic was clearer, still stuck with the C22 ... because it just sounded better in other ways to him. I think he eventually just upgraded to JBLs in the end.


That was me. I did try the Bic for three months and I did find the clarity superb to the C22, but not in a more realistic way. Voices while clearer at times didn't sound as much like a real human voice. At the end of the day this was just too bothersome. The other problem is you can't play these things without a subwoofer. They lack low end since they're sealed. We are going to start doing some movie watching outdoors so want speakers that don't need help with the low end to sound decent.


I did end up going with the JBL Studio 2 series. I got a brand new JBL 235C for a $155 which was way too hard to pass up. I will get the JBL 230s for from my fronts to match, which when I auditioned them in my home provided a very sweet and open sound. They measure pretty well also. You don't need to play these loud for them to sound loud.
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post #26 of 34 Old 08-21-2017, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I go with the clarity + tonality (or realistic voices, whatever we want to call it) thing myself. Easy to find speakers with clarity (even my old tiny Sony htib center could manage clarity well enough). But tonality (and basically everything else, soundstage, bass, etc) was horrible. And that's the issue I find with most small speakers, clarity may be great, but voices simply don't sound realistic.

I do recall someone here (forget his name) who did try the C22 vs the Bic, and although he stated the Bic was clearer, still stuck with the C22 ... because it just sounded better in other ways to him. I think he eventually just upgraded to JBLs in the end.


That was me. I did try the Bic for three months and I did find the clarity superb to the C22, but not in a more realistic way. Voices while clearer at times didn't sound as much like a real human voice. At the end of the day this was just too bothersome. The other problem is you can't play these things without a subwoofer. They lack low end since they're sealed. We are going to start doing some movie watching outdoors so want speakers that don't need help with the low end to sound decent.


I did end up going with the JBL Studio 2 series. I got a brand new JBL 235C for a $155 which was way too hard to pass up. I will get the JBL 230s for from my fronts to match, which when I auditioned them in my home provided a very sweet and open sound. They measure pretty well also. You don't need to play these loud for them to sound loud.
I'm just going to replace the tweeter for now thank you irs and taxes . I'd like to get a kef, jbl or polk center eventually. What I heard when I attached a tweeter from one of my polks it sounded pretty nice
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post #27 of 34 Old 08-21-2017, 02:31 PM
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I'm just going to replace the tweeter for now thank you irs and taxes . I'd like to get a kef, jbl or polk center eventually. What I heard when I attached a tweeter from one of my polks it sounded pretty nice
Upgraded tweeter should be decent.

I'm curious if it'd be a recommended upgrade for C22 people too. Probably better to go the philharmonic route so they'd get the upgraded crossover as well, but as a cheap upgrade it may be okay.
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post #28 of 34 Old 08-21-2017, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by tempestwolf View Post
I'm just going to replace the tweeter for now thank you irs and taxes . I'd like to get a kef, jbl or polk center eventually. What I heard when I attached a tweeter from one of my polks it sounded pretty nice
Upgraded tweeter should be decent.

I'm curious if it'd be a recommended upgrade for C22 people too. Probably better to go the philharmonic route so they'd get the upgraded crossover as well, but as a cheap upgrade it may be okay.
I bought the tweeter that was recommended. The way it looks it should screw into the stock plate. There is a few pictures on the net on another forum. I should have it next week. The woofers sound fine no distortion. It should do fine with the rest of my setup.

I run polk monitor series 2 dual woofer in front polk r15 with upgraded crossovers from a old set of David visioniks for the atmos another set of smaller monitor series 2 polks in the rears with kef coda 7 for the center rears on a newer pioneer elite. I don't have the precise model names for the polks I'm not at home. With a mirage dual 8 inch subwoofer. Its a 7.1 setup.
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post #29 of 34 Old 08-25-2017, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
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The tweeter fit the stock plate perfectly. peerless bc25tg15-04 just had to enlarge the screw holes on the pioneer plate and it fit like a glove.
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post #30 of 34 Old 08-26-2017, 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by tempestwolf View Post
The tweeter fit the stock plate perfectly. peerless bc25tg15-04 just had to enlarge the screw holes on the pioneer plate and it fit like a glove.
I got a c21 just laying around. Let us know how it works out for you. Might do it myself for the heck of it
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