Audyssey phase error -- does it matter? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 49 Old 08-22-2017, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Audyssey phase error -- does it matter?

I was in the process of testing a spare center speaker here, got it hooked up, did the audyssey setup thing, and it reports a phase error on my center.

Rechecked the wires, retested, and same error. So I tested a different center, thinking maybe I accidentally messed up the polarity on the avr side, but that tests fine, no error.

So should I just ignore the error? Any particular reason why it occurs?
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post #2 of 49 Old 08-22-2017, 01:56 PM
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Short answer; you can usually ignore the warning if you have checked the wiring.

See here for more info:

Why is Audyssey reporting that my speakers are out of phase?
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post #3 of 49 Old 08-22-2017, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
I was in the process of testing a spare center speaker here, got it hooked up, did the audyssey setup thing, and it reports a phase error on my center.

Rechecked the wires, retested, and same error. So I tested a different center, thinking maybe I accidentally messed up the polarity on the avr side, but that tests fine, no error.

So should I just ignore the error? Any particular reason why it occurs?
What happens if you swap the + and - going from the AVR to the speaker?

If it says they are now in phase it has been known that vendors send out speakers with the + & - reversed inside the cabinet believe it or not.

Geoff A. J., California
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post #4 of 49 Old 08-22-2017, 03:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
What happens if you swap the + and - going from the AVR to the speaker?

If it says they are now in phase it has been known that vendors send out speakers with the + & - reversed inside the cabinet believe it or not.
I was tempted to do that actually. I assume it won't break anything, right? Like my avr goes up in flames...

Although in that audyssey link it says some manufacturers purposely do the phase reversal thing --
" then it is probably because some speakers are deliberately designed with intentional phase reversals internally (usually to address Crossover problems)."

So even if audyssey likes if I swap polarity, how do I know it was supposed to be like that in the first place?
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post #5 of 49 Old 08-22-2017, 03:24 PM
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Turn the power off, swap the speaker connection +/- on one end of the wire, re-run Audyssey. If fixed, great, if not, you've got one of those speakers with an internal mismatch of phase, probably by mistake. Check with the manufacturer.
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post #6 of 49 Old 08-22-2017, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
I was tempted to do that actually. I assume it won't break anything, right? Like my avr goes up in flames...

Although in that audyssey link it says some manufacturers purposely do the phase reversal thing --
" then it is probably because some speakers are deliberately designed with intentional phase reversals internally (usually to address Crossover problems)."

So even if audyssey likes if I swap polarity, how do I know it was supposed to be like that in the first place?
Ha ha, no issues at all swapping the + &- people do it by accident all the time.

Had no idea some manufacturers covered crap crossovers with phase reversal.

New one on me.
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post #7 of 49 Old 08-22-2017, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post
Turn the power off, swap the speaker connection +/- on one end of the wire, re-run Audyssey. If fixed, great, if not, you've got one of those speakers with an internal mismatch of phase, probably by mistake. Check with the manufacturer.
I'll give it a try later, although I doubt I'll have much luck checking with the manufacturer. Speaker is sort of old.
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post #8 of 49 Old 08-22-2017, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Short answer; you can usually ignore the warning if you have checked the wiring.

See here for more info:

Why is Audyssey reporting that my speakers are out of phase?

I was about to post, that some speakers are design that way, but your link say-it so much better


Ray
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post #9 of 49 Old 08-22-2017, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
I was about to post, that some speakers are design that way, but your link say-it so much better


Ray
Tried again, reversed the polarity on my center, and audyssey worked fine.

No phase errors.

But I have no clue if that's good or bad. If they were supposed to be reversed on purpose by the manufacturer, how would I know?
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post #10 of 49 Old 08-22-2017, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
Tried again, reversed the polarity on my center, and audyssey worked fine.

No phase errors.

But I have no clue if that's good or bad. If they were supposed to be reversed on purpose by the manufacturer, how would I know?
It was probably a manufacturing error, mistakenly connecting the + wire to the - terminal, internally. I had one of those scenarios in a center speaker, many years ago. It happens.

Problem solved, so no worries! Have a beer, sit back, put your feet up. and enjoy your system ...
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post #11 of 49 Old 08-22-2017, 10:26 PM
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I got an Audyssey error during calibration once.

Turns-out the tweeter-driver in my JBL Center speaker was blown (silent). I replaced the tweeter-driver and it passed (it also sounded better).

I don't think I would wire speakers other than the proper color-match way.

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post #12 of 49 Old 08-22-2017, 10:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post
It was probably a manufacturing error, mistakenly connecting the + wire to the - terminal, internally. I had one of those scenarios in a center speaker, many years ago. It happens.

Problem solved, so no worries! Have a beer, sit back, put your feet up. and enjoy your system ...
I'm basically just testing some spare centers I have here, as I can now do the audyssey thing with them. There is a chance I won't stick with this specific center, but I want to at least test it out properly.

It has a bit of a weird design (Boston VR10)... 3-way, but a big radiator instead of a proper driver. So possibly the odd phase thing was on purpose, or the radiator was confusing audyssey... not sure. I'm not exactly a fan of the radiator in lieu of a driver though.

I wonder if it's worth doing the battery test on the driver, see if positive is really positive? Although again, not sure if positive is supposed to be positive...

Last edited by Doe Doe; 08-23-2017 at 12:02 AM.
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post #13 of 49 Old 08-23-2017, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
I'm basically just testing some spare centers I have here, as I can now do the audyssey thing with them. There is a chance I won't stick with this specific center, but I want to at least test it out properly.

It has a bit of a weird design (Boston VR10)... 3-way, but a big radiator instead of a proper driver. So possibly the odd phase thing was on purpose, or the radiator was confusing audyssey... not sure. I'm not exactly a fan of the radiator in lieu of a driver though.

I wonder if it's worth doing the battery test on the driver, see if positive is really positive? Although again, not sure if positive is supposed to be positive...
Looks like a good one to sell off ...
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post #14 of 49 Old 08-23-2017, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks like a good one to sell off ...
Not sure yet. It actually sounds pretty decent for what it is.

I kind of wish it had two drivers instead of a radiator... or used a port or something... bass is a bit weak, so not sure if the radiator thingy is helping much. I can see why the VR12/14 are thought of highly though. A bigger version probably would be pretty good.

It's competition is a Procenter 2000... winner will be my center, at least for the time being.

VR10 has been holding its own, I may need to A/B them to figure which I prefer. For now I'm simply going to use the VR10 w/ some movies for a while, see how I like it.

And I contacted Boston Acoustics to see if the polarity thing was done on purpose or if a mistake was made during manufacturing. The reply I got back was "IT can be either or. "

Or they have no idea...
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post #15 of 49 Old 08-23-2017, 01:29 PM
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The most important thing is that all the drivers within a speaker are in phase with each other. Yes, believe it or not, speakers have been known to leave the factory with drivers out of phase with each other.

With regards to the absolute phase it can be hit and miss. If in doubt you can test it: http://www.doityourself.com/stry/how...-wire-polarity
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post #16 of 49 Old 08-23-2017, 01:30 PM
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All that matters is if it sounds good -- it will not explode.
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post #17 of 49 Old 08-23-2017, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Peternz1 View Post
The most important thing is that all the drivers within a speaker are in phase with each other. Yes, believe it or not, speakers have been known to leave the factory with drivers out of phase with each other.

With regards to the absolute phase it can be hit and miss. If in doubt you can test it: http://www.doityourself.com/stry/how...-wire-polarity
That's what I meant by the battery test.

Although again, not sure if it means much without knowing if the manufacturer purposely reversed them.
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post #18 of 49 Old 08-23-2017, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
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All that matters is if it sounds good -- it will not explode.
That's what I sort of figure. If my ears can't tell a difference, it's all moot... won't matter either way. That assumes it won't wreck the speaker eventually.
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That's what I sort of figure. If my ears can't tell a difference, it's all moot... won't matter either way. That assumes it won't wreck the speaker eventually.
Your speaker will be fine -- do not over-think.

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post #20 of 49 Old 08-23-2017, 05:05 PM
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The absolute phase is not really essential. What is essential is that the speakers are wired in correct phase with respect to each other. If not you will have major problems.
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post #21 of 49 Old 08-23-2017, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
Tried again, reversed the polarity on my center, and audyssey worked fine.

No phase errors.

But I have no clue if that's good or bad. If they were supposed to be reversed on purpose by the manufacturer, how would I know?

The only way to know for sure, would be contacting the manufacture company, that build those speakers.


Some a very open on there design (and do use a reverse polarity on One Midrange on a MTM design) read about it a few time in some threads around here years ago.


Unfortunately, some others are secret about there design

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post
It was probably a manufacturing error, mistakenly connecting the + wire to the - terminal, internally. I had one of those scenarios in a center speaker, many years ago. It happens.

Problem solved, so no worries! Have a beer, sit back, put your feet up. and enjoy your system ...

Always a very possible scenario, mistake do happen.


Ray
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post #22 of 49 Old 08-23-2017, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
I'm basically just testing some spare centers I have here, as I can now do the audyssey thing with them. There is a chance I won't stick with this specific center, but I want to at least test it out properly.

It has a bit of a weird design (Boston VR10)... 3-way, but a big radiator instead of a proper driver. So possibly the odd phase thing was on purpose, or the radiator was confusing audyssey... not sure. I'm not exactly a fan of the radiator in lieu of a driver though.

I wonder if it's worth doing the battery test on the driver, see if positive is really positive? Although again, not sure if positive is supposed to be positive...

Another possible of the why.
Must speaker design with a radiator, use that radiator instead of ports design.
Not connected to anything, but do the reverse of the woofer to act a little bit as a port design.
This where it is very possible, the Audyssey got confuse, because that radiator would act like an out phase driver.


Ray

Last edited by darthray; 08-23-2017 at 05:44 PM.
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post #23 of 49 Old 08-23-2017, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Another possible of the why.
Must speaker design with a radiator, use that radiator instead of ports design.
Not connected to anything, but do the reverse of the woofer to act a little bit as a port design.
This where it is very possible, the Audyssey got confuse, because that radiator would act like an out phase driver.


Ray
I think the only way I'll know for certain is if I can stumble across another VR10 person here (or find an old post somewhere) where someone else had the same issue with audyssey. If everyone w/ VR10s get the same issue, then it's normal for that speaker. Being an old, probably not super common speaker, I'm not counting on finding others with the same issue.

The manufacturer in this case (boston acoustics) won't be of any help. I already contacted them and got a mostly useless reply that it could be due to design, or it was a mistake in manufacturing... they had no idea really.
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post #24 of 49 Old 08-23-2017, 06:04 PM
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The only way to know for sure, would be contacting the manufacture company, that build those speakers.
Contacting the company is not going to help in any way since they may have made a mistake that they are not aware of. You need to test the speakers yourself.
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post #25 of 49 Old 08-23-2017, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Peternz1 View Post
Contacting the company is not going to help in any way since they may have made a mistake that they are not aware of. You need to test the speakers yourself.
If they designed it that way on purpose, or were aware of audyssey issues due to the radiator, they could have possibly provided that info. But yeah, contacting the company was not of any help to me.

As for testing... testing in what way? I can do the battery test (which again, not sure if it'd even be useful in this situation)... I can hook it up to audyssey and have it tell me about phase errors. Besides that sort of 'rigorous' testing, not sure what else I can do.
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post #26 of 49 Old 08-23-2017, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
I think the only way I'll know for certain is if I can stumble across another VR10 person here (or find an old post somewhere) where someone else had the same issue with audyssey. If everyone w/ VR10s get the same issue, then it's normal for that speaker. Being an old, probably not super common speaker, I'm not counting on finding others with the same issue.

The manufacturer in this case (boston acoustics) won't be of any help. I already contacted them and got a mostly useless reply that it could be due to design, or it was a mistake in manufacturing... they had no idea really.

I very much believe the radiator is the issue, since it would be acting out of phase due to there design (as the woofer go out, the radiator go in and vice versa when the woofer go back to it's original position, the radiator would go out), so nothing to worry on this one.
I know of no speakers company that use this design now a day.
Was very popular, back in the 70's, 80's.


Ray
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post #27 of 49 Old 08-23-2017, 06:14 PM
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As for testing... testing in what way? I can do the battery test (which again, not sure if it'd even be useful in this situation)... I can hook it up to audyssey and have it tell me about phase errors. Besides that sort of 'rigorous' testing, not sure what else I can do.
I would do the battery test. That is 100% conclusive.
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post #28 of 49 Old 08-23-2017, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Peternz1 View Post
Contacting the company is not going to help in any way since they may have made a mistake that they are not aware of. You need to test the speakers yourself.

I was talking about design perspective, some do use reverse phase, mostly on MTM design.
I was not talking about a reverse phase done in error.


If you read back, as I was afraid, some manufacture and not much help in this matter, as the OP quoted.


Do agree with You, the only way to found out is testing, but that testing be pointless if it was a design decision


Ray
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post #29 of 49 Old 08-23-2017, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Peternz1 View Post
I would do the battery test. That is 100% conclusive.
Yeah, but what if the manufacturer purposely did the phase reversal thing? Wouldn't that mean whatever I get with the battery test would be useless?

I mean, if positive comes back negative... maybe that's actually correct for this model if the manufacturer purposely made it that way?
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post #30 of 49 Old 08-23-2017, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Peternz1 View Post
I would do the battery test. That is 100% conclusive.

+1


And when doing so, only look at how the woofer and the radiator react, tweeter are too small to see.
My post on reply #26 , believing the radiator is the culprit, would definably confirm or show if the radiator is the problem.


Ray
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