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post #1 of 540 Old 01-14-2004, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Anyone knows anthing else about this new nht digital speaker systems?



http://www.audioholics.com/ces/ces20...p_image001.jpg

NHT



NHT DSP-1 Fully Digital Audio Speaker System




This system really caught our attention for the following reasons:

Real time room correction powered by DEQX.
Fully integrated Digital Crossovers adjustable for up to 100dB slopes.


We have always dreamed of the day when a loudspeaker manufacturer would develop a cost effective speaker system that incorporates no analog crossovers in the loudspeaker and does all of the filtering in the digital domain, with optional active room correction for the active subwoofers. The details of this system, including retail pricing, and actual employed loudspeakers is still a little sketchy. An active subwoofer will be included in this package.
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post #2 of 540 Old 01-14-2004, 02:13 PM
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*Paging Jack Hidley*

The midbass driver is indeed an Seas Excel Magnesium, the tweeter is also Seas.

The electronics were developed in a joint venture between the Engineering at NHT and the folks from DEQX (Formerly ClarityEQ) in Sydney AU.

The project began its' life over two years ago and is really, as Billie mentioned, quite astonishing. Using DSP to shape sound through brick wall (96dB/octave slopes used in the CES demo) crossovers, room correction, phase manipulation and near infinite parametric EQ adjustability.

The future of loudspeaker design is upon us.

Maybe Jack can take time out from his busy day to devulge a bit more info.

I should also have more info in a day or two to feed you guys.

Joe Dahlquist
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post #3 of 540 Old 01-14-2004, 02:34 PM
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"Cost effective"??

For whom?...manufacturers or consumers?

I suspect that this system will not have consumer friendly pricing for at least five more years. There's hardly any competition(perhaps something by Meridian) right now and I'm sure the developments costs were huge. I'm guessing minimum $5K. To me, that's high end, not average consumer.
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post #4 of 540 Old 01-14-2004, 05:13 PM
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I heard them. Easily the most detailed and invisible speakers I've ever heard. Though, I suppose that may not mean much. I know I've heard speakers that were dramatically more expensive that wouldn't touch these though in any way shape or form. And, at least, the amps are included. I thought I heard someone say $3000/pr (ish), but I'm not sure if that's for everything or what. And I guess there's a subwoofer that is coming out for it but I don't know any of the particulars on that except that i'ts supposed to be dual 10" sealed woofers in a small enclosure. I hope my dealer has an upgrade program for these as I'm only about 4 months into my T6s. What's the actual time frame/price on these Joe? And can it be used in an HT system?

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post #5 of 540 Old 01-15-2004, 01:02 AM
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I'll post more details later, but for now:

Our target retail price is $3500 for the pair of loudspeakers with the DSP-1 processor. The DSP-1 processor has two inputs and six outputs. Four of the outputs are driven by an internal switching amplifier. The fifth and sixth outputs are line level to go to a subwoofer.

The system is being designed to work as a two channel or surround system.

This will radically change the loudspeaker world. In ten years, 50% of the loudspeakers sold will have DSP running the amplification and filtering functions. It is expensive now, but the prices will come down a lot from just a volume increase. The performance gains are just too great for this to not happen.

Jack Hidley
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post #6 of 540 Old 01-15-2004, 01:48 AM
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Jack, I own a pair of NHT HDP-2's.. I need a set of Superone or Supertwo's to finish off a matched rear soundstage (will set to small 80hz). Are there any Superone or Supertwo's left?

My dealer was a NHT dealer but the importer stopped distributing.
How come you're not making bipole or dipole speakers.

It's a shame some excellent Hi-Fi speaker companies (ie Ruark) don't produce them.. it limits themselves to "Hi-Fi" people or those who would mix 'n' match Ruark mains with M&K side/rear tripoles for example.

I use Kef Reference front three, B&W 601 for rears, and the HDP-2 (nice dipoles btw!) :-) for sides.

Thanks

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

Jealous of my speakers?

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post #7 of 540 Old 01-15-2004, 05:45 AM
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Link from NHTs biggest cheerleader and former AVS bad boy. ;) Here is the home page with frames. Pretty good NHT CES show info.

E. J.

PS - also note that NHT now has a user forum on their site. Maybe more info there?

Get a good deal on the Algorenet? Don't come crying to me when you need it fixed.
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post #8 of 540 Old 01-15-2004, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Hidley
I'll post more details later, but for now:

Our target retail price is $3500 for the pair of loudspeakers with the DSP-1 processor. The DSP-1 processor has two inputs and six outputs. Four of the outputs are driven by an internal switching amplifier. The fifth and sixth outputs are line level to go to a subwoofer.

The system is being designed to work as a two channel or surround system.

This will radically change the loudspeaker world. In ten years, 50% of the loudspeakers sold will have DSP running the amplification and filtering functions. It is expensive now, but the prices will come down a lot from just a volume increase. The performance gains are just too great for this to not happen.
I completely agree. That's why I yanked the passive x-overs out of my monitors, bought a digital electronic x-over (6 channel, just like yours!) and bi amped my mains. It's a huge pain in the rear end to DIY, but it sounds great. I applaud you bringing this to the mainstream in a easy to use consumer friendly package. The increased efficiency, detail, and control of the system is the way of the future.

Az
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post #9 of 540 Old 01-15-2004, 09:03 AM
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In light of the fact that active speakers have failed in the marketplace, I'll assume that the sonic differences weren't great enough to overcome marketplace resistance. Hopefully, the sonic differences with digital eq. will be enough to change marketplace opinion, but I'm a little skeptical. I guess it'll depend on how fast the prices come down.
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post #10 of 540 Old 01-15-2004, 09:41 AM
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Doesn't surprise me at all. Look at how many people buy HTIBs that have the DVD, processor and amps all in one equipment box. Adding room correction is the next logical step. It will all depend on how quickly the upper end technology filters its way down.
At $3500 it looks like a good deal, considering you get the processing and amps in the package with 2 speakers. The T6 setup costs more than that but it includes subs and no room correction.

Grady
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post #11 of 540 Old 01-15-2004, 10:09 AM
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Jack, if you're still there, what kind of inputs does it have? Analog, Digital, both? Does it take a line level signal and vary the volume or does it take a variable signal and simply run DSP on it? How the heck do you do a 5 or 7-channel system on it? Or is that a "TBA" type of thing. And, if you had 3 boxes/speaker combos would they all sync up so they're all playing at the same volume? So many questions swirling through my head! I'm almost wishing I hadn't seen these..........

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post #12 of 540 Old 01-15-2004, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alimental
Jack, if you're still there, what kind of inputs does it have? Analog, Digital, both? Does it take a line level signal and vary the volume or does it take a variable signal and simply run DSP on it? How the heck do you do a 5 or 7-channel system on it? Or is that a "TBA" type of thing. And, if you had 3 boxes/speaker combos would they all sync up so they're all playing at the same volume? So many questions swirling through my head! I'm almost wishing I hadn't seen these..........
I'm assuming that with a 5 or 7 channel system you would have 5 or 7 speakers and each pair of speakers comes with the x-over/dsp. He mentioned that the x-over/dsp unit comes with 6 outputs, 2 for use with subs. It wouldn't take much of a software change to make an extra channel for center. Or that ability might already be there if the unit is user configurable at all.

You would still need a pre/pro, so that would allow line level matching between speakers.

I would think that the units would have some adjustment for input and output gain, but maybe not. Since he said it has 2 inputs, it probably has at least analog inputs. I would hope digital too.

But I'm just guessing.

Az
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post #13 of 540 Old 01-15-2004, 10:18 PM
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We don't manufacture dipole speakers anymore because we don't see a need for them. With a discrete, full range surround format you don't want your rear channels to diffuse the sound. All of the speakers in the system should have the same radiation characteristics. Any ambience in the sound field will be mixed in by the producer and engineer, not by the speaker design.

With Dolby ProLogic, it was very helpful to have rear channels that diffused the sound. The rear channel was mono and there was no way to mix ambience into it other than the delay that the processor added to it. In such a crude system, a dipole does a good job of confusing your brain and keeping you from localizing the sound sources.

The NHT DSP speaker has a total of four analogue inputs. Two balanced and two unbalanced. There are no digital inputs. From the user's standpoint, the processor behaves as a multichannel power amplifier. They still need a preamp/surround processor with level adjustments, volume control, source selection, etc. The processors do not need to be linked together in any way.

We really wanted to put a digital input on the processor, but there are a number of technical and practical problems with doing this. There is no accepted consumer multichannel digital transmission format yet. If we use an SPDIF digital input, then the processor needs to have a volume control, which of course requires that units be ganged together. If it has a volume control, then we have to supply a remote control for it. Now the consumer has 21 remotes:) These are just a small example of why we kept all of the preamp functions out of the processor.

Our goal with this product is to give the user a product that sounds fantastic out of the box, and doesn't require lots of complicated setup. Most products with DSP give you too many options. This product is designed to make the DSP work for the user, not the other way around.

The processor is designed to drive any two speakers in the system plus have two extra line level analogue outputs to go to the subwoofer. A typical 5.1 system would have one processor drive the L and R speakers and send a feed to two subwoofers. The second processor would drive the LS and RS speakers and the third processor would drive the C speaker. You are of course left with one extra channel, which could be used to drive a rear center speaker.

I've been using DSP based loudspeaker controllers, to do crossover and eq functions, for a number of years, however the DEQX process is quite a bit different. It has very high slope, linear phase crossovers (0-300dB/octave) with low latency (delay time). I'm not aware of any other processor that can do this. On top of the crossover functions, the processor equalizes the phase response of the system to have a constant group delay. In the near future, the processor will support room correction processing. For more information on the DEQX process and existing products, go to www.deqx.com

Jack Hidley
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post #14 of 540 Old 01-15-2004, 10:55 PM - Thread Starter
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jack, thanks for the info. when will you have the multi-channel version of the dsp, are you working on it yet? when will these nht digital speakers hit the dealer rooms?
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post #15 of 540 Old 01-16-2004, 12:32 AM
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Hi,
Why are the speakers red and plastic looking? Is this the shape of things to come?

Thanks
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post #16 of 540 Old 01-16-2004, 01:02 AM
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The only DSP processor (DSP-1) that we will be doing for this speaker is a 2 in 6 out model. We consider this a two channel processor since it can process two channels of audio. DEQX already has a 2 in 6 out processor, but without any power amplification inside. This is a PDC 2.6.

The DSP speaker and the DSP-1 will be sold as a package. You can't use the speaker without the DSP-1. The plan is to start shipping in the early summer.

The prototype speakers have a wood front baffle with very dark stain that turned out too dark. This hid all of the grain and made it look red. Production versions will be more brown and have visible grain.

Jack Hidley
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post #17 of 540 Old 01-16-2004, 07:17 AM
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It looks like a neat setup. I can't wait to hear it. I would prefer more user configurability, but I understand your philosophy.

However, I've found a 6 channel digital (96/24) crossover with parametric EQ, adjustable slopes, phase and time correction, digital and analog inputs, (that can be mixed) and it's only $300. It was a no brainer bypassing the passive crossovers in the speakers I already have and installing this stuff. A day with an RTA and making some cables and it sounds 100% better. The flexibility is tremendous... it can be used for triple bi amping, (L/C/R) stereo tri amping, stereo biamping with a sub or two, etc. They can be linked together so using two for a 5.1 system is easy. I don't bother with bi amping the surround channels, I run it in the triple bi amp mode.

I'm sure most people would rather spend the $3500 than do all of the homework, so I think you'll have some success. And when you factor in the cost of the amps, cables, speakers, and setup time, it really isn't that expensive. I would still like to see some user options though. It wouldn't be hard to do, you could even use an RS-232 port for programming access and leave the front panel clean. It would be nice to have outboard amps as an option, for those of us who would like to run tube amps.

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post #18 of 540 Old 01-16-2004, 07:45 AM
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Joe,

Do you know if the digital filter is FIR or IIR or mix of both? Guessing from the slope and typical 2-way speaker cross-over around 1 ~ 3kHz, It could be FIR.... ??
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post #19 of 540 Old 01-16-2004, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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jack, again thanks for the info. i can hardly wait to hear your new speakers this summer.

az barber, would you be kind enough to tell us about "6-channel digital (96/24) crossover with parametric EQ, adjustable slopes, phase and time correction, digital and analog inputs, (that can be mixed) and it's only $300" product...like brand name, model, and where you got it?
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post #20 of 540 Old 01-16-2004, 07:48 AM
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It sounds like a Behringer product. Their Feedback Destroyer is a very popular sub PEQ. I use one and I will never use a sub without one again.

Kevin
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post #21 of 540 Old 01-16-2004, 10:29 AM
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Dunno--the Behringer is 2-channel only, although at about $120 over the web, I guess you could get three and call it a six-channel solution for roughly $300. I'd love to hear of a good six-channel parametric EQ.
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post #22 of 540 Old 01-16-2004, 01:11 PM
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It's the Behringer Ultradrive Pro. 6 channels with 3 crossover types with adjustable slopes from 6 to 24 db, digital processing, phase and time correction, and parametric EQ. There are also limiters and dynamic EQs although I don't think those would be used too often in home sound systems.

They also have just the crossover and delay without the processing for $159.

List price is $440, I found mine for a little over $300 at a local pro music shop.

Az
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post #23 of 540 Old 01-16-2004, 02:24 PM
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Just so you know, from reading the DEQX site, the DSP1 is substantially more advanced and adjustable than the Behringer, though you probably realize that. I think they said is was equivalent to having 1000s of parametric bands, room EQ and the ability to crossover at 100dB/oct or even more has big advantages for vertical dispersion and lack of distortion. But the Berhinger would likely be a big upgrade for most systems.

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post #24 of 540 Old 01-16-2004, 02:39 PM
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The high slope linear phase crossovers are one of the things that makes the DSP-1 ans PDC 2.6 unique. The improvement in power response from the complete elimination of comb filtering is huge.

Jack Hidley
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post #25 of 540 Old 01-16-2004, 04:30 PM
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Of course if you want to loose all sense of perspective you could have a look at the BeoLab 5...

http://www.bang-olufsen.com/sw2246.asp

With 4 drivers and 2500 watts peak power you can apparently damage your ears listening to distortion free music. They say they even dynamical compensate for the temperature of the driver coils. I think the are about 15,000 a pair...

Roger
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post #26 of 540 Old 01-16-2004, 05:37 PM
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Not to change the direction of the thread ( I am an NHT fan) , but to show that digital crossovers are happening elsewhere too ..... Tannoy will have new active Eyris series utilizing digital crossovers. The speakers will have a small LED display/control on the front baffle, kind of like the big/expensive Meridian speakers. There is no info at the Tannoy website currently, but they did have brochures at CES. Tannoy North America is located very nearby and I hope to visit with a local dealer out of curiousity. So if I find any more info on this, I will start a new thread.

Now back to the new exciting NHT's !
And it's great to have the manufacturers directly contributing hear at AVS -> thanks Jack !

- Andy
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post #27 of 540 Old 01-16-2004, 09:19 PM
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Jack:

I'm thrilled to hear that someone is finally coming to market with a fully digital loudspeaker system! Hopefully it's a sign of things to come.
Any chance that you would make a 3-channel or a 1-channel processor? I'm just thinking the 3-channel would be great for Left / Right / Center channels in a surround setup. Similarly, a 1-channel for dedicated Center speaker would keep the user from having a one of the processor channels go unused.
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post #28 of 540 Old 05-02-2004, 05:51 AM
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I had the good fortune to audition what I think is an early version of the speakers at the DEQX suite at Alexis Park. The setup was as pictured in one of the earlier links in this thread, with two 10" subs, one in each front corners and the NHT monitors on stands about 4' away from the back wall.

This is one of the most open sounding and clean setups I have ever listened to. The combination of high slope linear phase crossovers, system phase and ampliturde correction for sub/main integration and flat power response, and the potential for future room correction, and you have a tour-de-force.

I would add that I got into technical discussions with the DEQX folks, and had a chance to look at the impulse responses of the Seas drivers used in this speaker. The tweeter is amazing uncorrected, a really excellent piece. The mid/woof is equally impressive, fast, clean impulse response with very low energy storage. The subs had no right to sound as good as they did considering the room and their physical positioning.

The combination of great transducers and corrective processing make these an industry-leading effort.

My congrats to the NHT team.
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post #29 of 540 Old 05-02-2004, 09:34 AM
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Any ideas when this will become available? I doubt my local dealer will get any in for demo material; maybe I need to start pushing for it now... :)

Grady
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post #30 of 540 Old 05-02-2004, 10:10 AM
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also, I'm a little unclear about the pricing...does the ~$3500 price tag include the dual subs? Can the package be purchased without the subs?

thanks
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