Onix Rocket Measurements By UltimateAV - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 06:27 AM
 
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Here are the Stereophile measurements of the Quad 989's

http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeak...20/index7.html

The $5000 Quad 989's measure +7/-15 dB from 50 Hz to 20,000 Hz.

The non-production 750's measure +/- 5 dB from 35 Hz to 20,000 Hz.

Bascom King also did some measurements of the 750's, which can be seen here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...027&fullpage=1

What does THIS say about the Quads ?
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post #92 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 06:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Craig I'm certain I don't have to spell out for you the difficulties in measuring a large panel with dipole dispersion. Plus or minus 5 for the 750 is pretty erratic and not particularly good compared to Revel. Veritas or Paradigm and PSB measurements now is it?
BSK's measurements indicate and correlate well with a VERY recessed and laid back sounding speaker. Far from accurate. Many people however enjoy this type of sound.
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post #93 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 06:34 AM
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Damage control does not necessarily imply lying. It's simply a matter of one side explaining away something that is negative.
I'll agree with that definition. BUT, it is generally accepted that the term, and the term "spin" each imply a lack of honesty. To ignore that, or pretend it doesn't exist is, well.................................spinning at it's finest. Perhaps you don't understand the word "imply."

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Could he be telling the truth ABSOLUTELY, could he be lying about it to save face ABSOLUTELY. Either scenario is entirely plausible. Given Mark's reputation I would doubt he IS lying but it remains a valid possibility.
Kudos for finally admitting the possibility that Mark could be telling the truth, and even doubting that he is lying. However, if you knew Mark, you wouldn't even entertain the possibility that he was.

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I have no agenda
OK! Why did you start this thread? What was the motivation and purpose? Let's skip past the innocent "just to show what a bad measurement these speakers got" answer, and ask WHY you wanted to show off the "bad" measurements. Why did you post a link to the negative measurements only, without posting a link to the very positive review? Might we not reasonably infer from that lack of objectivity an agenda?

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His character has not been attacked and of course he's your friend he gave you a free speaker setup!:D
Yes it has, and your implication that he is my friend ONLY because he gave me a free speaker setup is a perfect example of another attack on character, this time mine. He earned my respect and friendship long before he generously provided me with a gift. And before you start spinning that fact, for your information, to the best of my knowledge, it was a panel of 3 that selected me for the makeover, not Mark alone.

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post #94 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 06:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by craigsub
Here are the Stereophile measurements of the Quad 989's

http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeak...20/index7.html

The $5000 Quad 989's measure +7/-15 dB from 50 Hz to 20,000 Hz.

The non-production 750's measure +/- 5 dB from 35 Hz to 20,000 Hz.

Bascom King also did some measurements of the 750's, which can be seen here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...027&fullpage=1

What does THIS say about the Quads ?
it says the quads measured poorly - just like the rockets under discussion in this thread - nothing else
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post #95 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 06:39 AM
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Originally posted by 6FU
You of course with your freebies are extremely biased. My thanks to the gent who PMed me about you and Craig's rationale for defending Rocket so vociferously.
Of course you're missing the real question... Did Rijax get the tweaked ringer models like the reviewer, or did he get the crappy ones everyone else gets and Ultimate AV measured?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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post #96 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 06:39 AM
 
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Originally posted by 6FU
Craig I'm certain I don't have to spell out for you the difficulties in measuring a large panel with dipole dispersion. Plus or minus 5 for the 750 is pretty erratic and not particularly good compared to Revel. Veritas or Paradigm and PSB measurements now is it?
I am looking at the graph of the Revel F-32's now ... and they are +/- 3 dB from 30 to 20,000 Hz ... and cost $4000 per pair.

Nice that you give the Quads a free pass ... They ARE an excellent speaker, and are clearly a classic. But it IS interesting that THIS reponse curve is ok.
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post #97 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 06:39 AM - Thread Starter
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'll agree with that definition. BUT, it is generally accepted that the term, and the term "spin" each implies a lack of honesty. To ignore that, or pretend it doesn't exist is, well.................................spinning at it's finest. Perhaps you don't understand the word "imply."
It implies nothing of the sort.

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OK! Why did you start this thread? What was the motivation and purpose? Let's skip past the innocent "just to show what a bad measurement these speakers got" answer, and ask WHY you wanted to show off the "bad" measurements. Why did you post a link to the negative measurements only, without posting a link to the very positive review? Might we not reasonably infer from that lack of objectivity an agenda?
I would have posted a link to ANY well regarded speaker that had such horrendous measured response. Add to the fact that this is the first time a well respected magazine has measured a speaker that garners much interest and it is definitely thread worthy. If the measurements had been stellar I would HAVE STARTED THE THREAD as well. I perhaps mistakenly assumed people wopuld be smart enough to figure out how to get to the review section on their own.


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Yes it has, and your implication that he is my friend ONLY because he gave me a free speaker setup is a perfect example of another attack on character, this time mine. He earned my respect and friendship long before he generously provided me with a gift. And before you start spinning that fact, for your information, to the best of my knowledge, it was a panel of 3 that selected me for the makeover, not Mark alone.
It's wonderful your friends gave you a generous gift. You're one lucky hot dog.
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post #98 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally posted by craigsub
I am looking at the graph of the Revel F-32's now ... and they are +/- 3 dB from 30 to 20,000 Hz ... and cost $4000 per pair.

Nice that you give the Quads a free pass ... They ARE an excellent speaker, and are clearly a classic. But it IS interesting that THIS reponse curve is ok.
Check the Veritas and Studio 100 measurements. I don't give the Quads a pass as we both know they are wonderful transducers and I can't nor can JA explain why they measure poorly anymore than I can explain why single ended tube amps measure horribly and sound fantastic. The Quads however would be a nightmare to measure properly.
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post #99 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 06:42 AM
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Originally posted by craigsub
I have YET to receive ONE PM on this whole matter. Somehow, I find that hard to believe that you are the Oprah of audio ...
I got two of them, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah :p
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post #100 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally posted by Stereodude
Of course you're missing the real question... Did Rijax get the tweaked ringer models like the reviewer, or did he get the crappy ones everyone else gets and Ultimate AV measured?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Sending "ringer" speakers for review is a common practice in the industry and nobody said everyone gets crappy ones I DID however say that if this pair slipped through then there are QC issues that obviously have to be resolved as it could easily happen again. I can quite handily speak for myself than you very much.
Hmmmmmm I've received 3 PMs.
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post #101 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 06:49 AM
 
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Originally posted by 6FU
Sending "ringer" speakers for review is a common practice in the industry and nobody said everyone gets crappy ones I DID however say that if this pair slipped through then there are QC issues that obviously have to be resolved as it could easily happen again. I can quite handily speak for myself than you very much.
Hmmmmmm I've received 3 PMs.
no..

these samples didn't slip through the QC controls.... they just came through the special "photography examples only" production line.... products in that line are wired out of phase on purpose... it helps them look better in pictures!!!

;)
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post #102 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 06:50 AM
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Originally posted by cschang
Right now, all we are doing, is trampling on each other's beliefs as to what is right to try and prove a point. Some want to believe Stereophile, and some want to believe Mark.
That's not really accurate. You have a small group of people who have partially detatched themselves from reality, who want to believe only the measurement portion of the review, and ignore the glowing review.

And, for the record... People who are wrong deserve to have their beliefs trampled.
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post #103 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 06:50 AM
 
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Originally posted by swordfish22
it says the quads measured poorly - just like the rockets under discussion in this thread - nothing else
Stereophile ALSO measured the Klipsch RB-15's as being +7/-6 dB from 70 to 20,000 Hz ...
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Originally posted by craigsub
Stereophile ALSO measured the Klipsch RB-15's as being +7/-6 dB from 70 to 20,000 Hz ...
Doesn't surprise me at all. Klipsch are abhorrent.
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Originally posted by 6FU
It still comes down to these being the measurements that were published and horrendous is not too strong a word.
And how do you justify these measurements against the reviewers glowing commentary of his pairs?
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I've also stated that I have no idea if Rockets are wonderful or lousy as I have NEVER HEARD THEM but they were on a shortlist for purchase as I posted a WTB about 3 weeks ago on the ********** forums. Hardly the workings of a troll.
Right I bet you were... :rolleyes:
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post #106 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally posted by Stereodude
And, for the record... People who are wrong deserve to have their beliefs trampled. [/b]
Wrong or closed minded to every possibility just like you.
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Originally posted by craigsub
Stereophile ALSO measured the Klipsch RB-15's as being +7/-6 dB from 70 to 20,000 Hz ...
now craig... are you going to spend all day pulling up more examples of speakers that measured poorly?

a poor measurement is a poor measurement whatever the speaker.... if it bothers you - then don't buy the speaker.... personally i would love to have a pair of quads that you referenced earlier - i really don't care what the chart looks like

as i've stated earlier in this thread - i don't put alot of stock in nearfield frequency response plots.... but as this thread shows - it does matter to some people

:)
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post #108 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 06:56 AM
 
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Originally posted by swordfish22
no..

these samples didn't slip through the QC controls.... they just came through the special "photography examples only" production line.... products in that line are wired out of phase on purpose... it helps them look better in pictures!!!

;)
Tube Sword ... HERE is a copy of the measurements Home Theater magazine did on the Klipsch RB-75's :

http://www.hometheatermag.com/loudsp...ch/index1.html

From 60 to 20,000 Hz ... +/- 5 dB ...
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post #109 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally posted by Stereodude

Right I bet you were... :rolleyes:
If you check the classifieds section of their forum you'll see I posted there in early February. Do you ever actually get ANYTHING correct?:D :D :D
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post #110 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 06:58 AM
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Originally posted by craigsub
Assuming Stereophile would be willing to do this, ... ALL this controversy could be put to rest. Hopefully they would do the same methodology they normally follow, including breaking the speakers in ... etc... and would post a complete follow up.
Except then the posts would become about how Mark Shifter pulled a fast one over on Stereophile. You're giving some people here too much credit Craig.
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Originally posted by Stereodude
Except then the posts would become about how Mark Shifter pulled a fast one over on Stereophile. You're giving some people here too much credit Craig.
Stereophile has integrity and typically will not do this. BTW his name is SCHIFTER. Can't you even get that right if you're going to defend his company?!?!?!?!?!
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Originally posted by swordfish22
now craig... are you going to spend all day pulling up more examples of speakers that measured poorly?

a poor measurement is a poor measurement whatever the speaker.... if it bothers you - then don't buy the speaker.... personally i would love to have a pair of quads that you referenced earlier - i really don't care what the chart looks like

as i've stated earlier in this thread - i don't put alot of stock in nearfield frequency response plots.... but as this thread shows - it does matter to some people

:)
My POINT is simple ... Several people have taken shots at those who own Internet Direct speakers ... We have ALL heard the insults "You guys swoop in on every thread" ... that kind of stuff.

These graphs I am pointing out go back from a few months to a couple years... yet not ONE Internet direct "fan" EVER went after this so-called "poor performance" ...

6FU HAS been very vocal (under his various names) in his support for large, B&M products ... and STARTED this thread ONLY for the purpose of trashing the 750's ...

BTW ... Your posting style is unmistakeable ... and we BOTH know you are a BIG Klipsch fan ... as am I ...
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post #114 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Craig I would have started this thread if the measurements were great because it is a hot product and the first measurements by a respected mag. I have the utmost respect for Mark and what he's done in the industry so you can "assume" all you want but this time you are VERY much off the mark. Until I can hear them I would neither praise nor trash them.
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post #115 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 07:04 AM
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Originally posted by 6FU
Until UAV comments you are exactly right we don't know. We don't know if Mark is telling the truth or if the measurements are the truth.
Sure we know the measurements aren't telling the truth. If the measurements are true and accurate then what does that say about Stereophile's reviewers? Gushing over a pair of such inaccurate speakers?
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Given Mark's reputation I would doubt he IS lying but it remains a valid possibility.
If you don't think he's lying, then why are you posting on a rampage?
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post #116 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 07:06 AM
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It implies nothing of the sort.
Sure it does. I'll make it even simpler. Both terms are implicitly negative. Are you going to argue that damage control and spin are positive.

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I would have posted a link to ANY well regarded speaker that had such horrendous measured response.
But you didn't, did you. Perhaps you would have. Perhaps not. It is a possibility, I suppose. We only have your statement for that. I bet if you go looking you'll find more well respected speakers that have had "horrendous measured response." I'll be awaiting your posts.

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I perhaps mistakenly assumed people would be smart enough to figure out how to get to the review section on their own.
A very subjective oversight on your part. Hmmm? :rolleyes:

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It's wonderful your friends gave you a generous gift. You're one lucky hot dog.
Again an erroneous assumption. I have neither met, nor communicated in any way with the other 2 members of the panel who graciously selected me from several nominees. So the term "friends" is another unsupported implication. You gotta find a new theme.

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Nice Link ... some excerpts ...:

"The center sounded distinctly tubby"

"I have heard a slight degree of chestiness" ...

Pretty impressive stuff for a $5250 5 channel system without a subwoofer ... :p

Seriously, I have had an EXTENSIVE audition of the Veritas system ... and it really did sound quite good ... The Quads are breathtaking ... and I am STILL a big fan of Klipsch ...
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Originally posted by Stereodude
Sure we know the measurements aren't telling the truth. If the measurements are true and accurate then what does that say about Stereophile's reviewers? Gushing over a pair of such inaccurate speakers?

If you don't think he's lying, then why are you posting on a rampage?
I posted a link to measurements. I at no point said he was lying. Why are you reading something so heinous into all this? Why would you assume the negative? Why are you so concerned? What did you have for lunch last Wednesday?
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post #119 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 07:10 AM
 
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Originally posted by 6FU
I posted a link to measurements. I at no point said he was lying. Why are you reading something so heinous into all this? Why would you assume the negative? Why are you so concerned? What did you have for lunch last Wednesday?
6FU .. YOU said YOU would post links to ANY well regarded speaker with such a HORRENDOUS response ... I posted several examples which eluded you ... perhaps they were too well hidden ?
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post #120 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 07:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally posted by craigsub
Nice Link ... some excerpts ...:

"The center sounded distinctly tubby"

"I have heard a slight degree of chestiness" ...

Pretty impressive stuff for a $5250 5 channel system without a subwoofer ... :p

Seriously, I have had an EXTENSIVE audition of the Veritas system ... and it really did sound quite good ... The Quads are breathtaking ... and I am STILL a big fan of Klipsch ...
You left the quotes out where it was preferred over the Revel and concentrated on one quote about listening to the CC off axis.

Musical Musings
"Open," "detailed," and "just a little relaxed and laid-back" were my initial overall impressions when listening to music through the V2.4s in 2-channel stereo plus subwoofer, and those first impressions held up with both music and films over several weeks of listening. The V2.4s were superbly clean in the all-important midrange: free of any obvious coloration, and never in-your-face except on the most over-the-top recordings. The top end was evenly balanced, with no trace of spit or sizzle. The midbass blended smoothly with the subwoofer.

The V2.4s handled voices particularly well. While I use a variety of recordings to judge the reproduction of male vocals, Gordon Lightfoot's classic If You Could Read My Mind (Reprise 6392-2) has consistently been one of the first I reach for. I have probably listened to it, first on vinyl and more recently on CD, through hundreds of loudspeakers. The V2.4s left little room for complaint. The balance was almost ideal, with just the right degree of texture and detail. The same held for Mighty Sam McClain's Give it Up to Love, a JVC XRCD remastering (JVCXR-0012-2) of an AudioQuest Music recording. While McClain's vocals also sounded a bit laid-back in the presence region, reducing the immediacy of the sound, the sound remained relaxed, open, and free of coloration.

The V2.4's tweeter is one of the best I've heard. From the delicate high-frequency transients of Leo Kottke's guitar on My Father's Face (Private Music 2050-2-P) to the small, reedy-sounding trumpet pipes of the baroque organ on Les Organistes du Roy Soleil (Pierre Verany PV 784011), it opened up and extended the sound space without calling attention to itself.


I spent a considerable amount of time comparing the Veritas V2.4 with the Revel Performa F30, mainly with music in 2-channel stereo in System 2, without subwoofer. Both speakers performed exceptionally well, but sounded distinctly different in a number of respects. Driven full-range, the Veritases' bass was crisply detailed, and few listeners would find it limited in any way in a modestly sized room with a music source. But while the Performas' bass was a little less tight—though still very well controlled by any reasonable standard—it was clearly deeper, freer, and more powerful.

Taking into account the immovable presence of the big-screen TV currently occupying the space between the front speakers in System 2, both sets of speakers soundstaged very well. Through the midrange, both were free of any unnatural coloration. The Veritases sounded distinctly more laid-back—I suspect a somewhat recessed midrange curve (as I write this, the Veritas system has not yet been measured), since our measurements of the Revels indicate a very flat response (SGHT, November 2001, p.90). This gave the Revels a punchier quality on soundtracks and large-scale music, though the more relaxed quality of the Veritases was appealing on smaller-scale program material and some vocals.

The Veritases sounded more open and detailed on top, with a sparkle that the Revels could not quite match. This showed up not only on fast transients, but on voices as well, which sounded just subtly more alive through the V2.4s. But this was somewhat counterbalanced by the Veritases' more laid-back lower midrange
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