Onix Rocket Measurements By UltimateAV - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6FU
Imagine the sheer bad luck of THAT happening. Wowsers. Mark also says this:
and FOR SURE the midranges are wired out of phase on the RSC200... I know that response anywhere... Know it well... We have caught many like this..
Have CAUGHT MANY LIKE THIS. This shows quality control issues beyond a shadow of a doubt. MANY LIKE THIS.
Again you selectively highlight the bad, ignoring the good. I think, by definition, that is called "spin." What Mark said was "CAUGHT MANY LIKE THIS." That's right. The QC "CAUGHT" the problems. What the heck do you think QC is? The whole point of quality control is to CATCH the problems. So, since issues with Rockets are "CAUGHT," I would say the QC is doing it's job very well. But, of course, you will spin it in a different direction. Do you really believe, there are no quality issues with other speakers or, for that matter, any other product? Do you really think that quality control means there is no room for human error, and that from the first step in a product's manufacturing process it is going to be flawless?

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post #182 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm sure we are all familiar with BHK. His measurements again reflect a laid back, excessively recessive and inaccurate speaker. If you like that sound then that is your choice. The more I read about the design of the 750 the more obvious it's becoming that he is using the crossover to hide the metal driver breakup point rather than handing it off ealier to the tweeter which would improve all aspects of the speaker except perhaps a slight bit of power handling.
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post #183 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 09:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6FU
I'm sure we are all familiar with BHK. His measurements again reflect a laid back, excessively recessive and inaccurate speaker. If you like that sound then that is your choice. The more I read about the design of the 750 the more obvious it's becoming that he is using the crossover to hide the metal driver breakup point rather than handing it off ealier to the tweeter which would improve all aspects of the speaker except perhaps a slight bit of power handling.
SO ... Based on your post here, and the fact the the reviewer was VERY positive about the 750's ... One must conclude a YOU think a Stereophile review is worthless.

And a speaker with an average response in the 2000 to 10,000 Hz range which is appx. 2 dB lower than the 1000 hz response is HARDLY excessively recessed ...
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post #184 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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I would say at this point that John Gannon, whom I am not familiar with, will have to contend with JA's wrath should these measurements turn out to be accurate. I am much more familiar with Stereophile and their writers than I am with UAV.
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post #185 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 09:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rijax
Again you selectively highlight the bad, ignoring the good. I think, by definition, that is called "spin." What Mark said was "CAUGHT MANY LIKE THIS." That's right. The QC "CAUGHT" the problems. What the heck do you think QC is? The whole point of quality control is to CATCH the problems. So, since issues with Rockets are "CAUGHT," I would say the QC is doing it's job very well. But, of course, you will spin it in a different direction. Do you really believe, there are no quality issues with other speakers or, for that matter, any other product? Do you really think that quality control means there is no room for human error, and that from the first step in a product's manufacturing process it is going to be flawless?
2 points that you are missing in your "rocket fever"

1. in the assembly process there are MANY speakers being wired wrong

2. the "nice cosmetic example" sent to the magazine was missed in the QC process

OH - what bad luck that the ONE (or was it THREE) speaker(s) sent for photography purposes happened to be one of those that got "missed" in the QC process
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post #186 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 09:19 AM
 
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Originally posted by swordfish22
2 points that you are missing in your "rocket fever"

1. in the assembly process there are MANY speakers being wired wrong

2. the "nice cosmetic example" sent to the magazine was missed in the QC process

OH - what bad luck that the ONE (or was it THREE) speaker(s) sent for photography purposes happened to be one of those that got "missed" in the QC process
This is what I am talking about ... "rocket fever" is a trolling remark.

Yet you ignore postings that suggest a solution.

For the record, I have explained several times that AV123 has a studio area at the office ... and the "picture samples" came from there ...

That was ignored.

I also listed a chronology of events, and suggested a solution ... and I would be the FIRST one to chastise MLS if a production sample matched the response that the "picture sample" did.
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post #187 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 09:26 AM
 
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Originally posted by craigsub
For the record, I have explained several times that AV123 has a studio area at the office ... and the "picture samples" came from there ...

That was ignored.

i stand corrected...

the models sent in that were MISWIRED were from the av123 STUDIO area...

i wonder how often that they listen to speakers in their own STUDIO area???

obviously, they didn't listen to these speakers.....

but it still begs the question - why in the world world would you keep a pair of MISWIRED speakers in your studio or anywhere for that matter???

additionally - these speakers DID come from the factory in china that produces all the rest of the production models - right?? or were they produced some place else??
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post #188 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 09:30 AM
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- So, he picks a weekend to be sure the admins don't stop the thread (and he KNOWS upfront it will be stopped as he has clear intentions to cause harm/foul...)

- posts word for word both here and in AV123 forum the same slander.

Look at a few data points of his posting if you will:

Toronto
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Posts: 10 Looking for a good setup in Toronto

Anyone selling gear in Toronto currently? Looking to buy a higher end setup ASAP.
pioneerelite@gmail.com


http://forum.**********/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7435



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These are inexcusably bad measurements and either show the basic design to be horribly flawed or the QC is horrendous. Needless to say I won't be buying any Rockets.


http://forum.**********/showthread.ph...5&pagenumber=3


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Who the hell said they're not for me??????? I've not heard them and I would still like to buy a setup to compare against my Veritas. Until I get a set, which were on my list to purcahse, I haven't a CLUE how they sound. This is a fairly easy concept that I'm sure you can follow no matter how "Drunkonjack" you are at 9 in the morning.

http://forum.**********/showthread.ph...5&pagenumber=4


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These are HORRENDOUSLY bad.

http://ultimateavmag.com/speakersys...ket/index4.html



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0&pagenumber=1




Toronto/6FU has gone, in three weeks time, from being ‘on the market’ for a higher end system (playing the dumb consumer intentionally - a planned attack it seems for three weeks...) and asking about used ONIX speakers to being and VERY WELL established person knowing about driver design, audiophile reviewers, and trashing a brand hs "still wants to buy" in one post just after stating he would never buy them.



Further, he has simultaneously posted word for word his trolling on both the AV123 forum and here (is that to stir trouble or to help spread help?) You decide whether there are any malign intentions.

TO ME, he is clearly TUBEGUY, clearly has a vendetta, and clearly should be ignored by anyone other than the admin here.

Intentionally slandering a company (with no altruistic motivation – “********” on your ‘help the customers” story Mr. 6...)

Having only intentions to hurt their image/sales/future is bad enough when warranted. TUBEGUY here has no clear motivation. I feel sorry for him. How he is taken seriously by anyone within earshot is an amazement to me.

Rgds,
Curtis
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post #189 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 09:32 AM
 
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I don't know, nor do I care, about this ... this thread started with a statement that the 750's have a HORRENDOUS response curve ...

They do not ... they DO have a bias towards warmth ...
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post #190 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 09:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by cwb4tx
Insane and incoherent ramblings snipped. Oops leaves nothing.
Who the hell is Tubeguy? I was into the high end from a business end when you were still wanking off before 6th grade gym class. Boy if I was planning an "attack" three weeks previous all the while of course NOT EVEN KNOWING THERE'D BE A REVIEW SHOWING BAD MEASUREMENTS then I'm more devious than Bin Laden himself. Yours is the funniest post yet and gee do you happen to own Rockets? Thanks for making me psychic though. Of course their sales will be hurt by a set of bad measurements as should or would any companys. Do you think nobody should point the review and it's findings out? Do you hope it just goes away?It's the information age and I, as I have said, would have started this post if the measurements had been good because getting a full review on this speakers is NEWS. BTW slander is voicing mistruths while LIBEL is writing mistruths and NOWHERE have I libeled the company at all. I'm guessing you think UAV has libeled them as well seeing as though they actually had the GALL to post those nasty measurements?
Get a grip son.
Oh and the admins are on the site on weekends. They obviously see no need to censor this thread and why would they?
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post #191 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 09:58 AM
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pioneerelite@gmail.com
Hey, I know who that is and I ain't saying. ;)

As far as CraigSub has pointed out, the words here will not lead to a solution. However, I think this might be an issue that we all take note of. As even more manufacturing heads for China, there is a big risk that most of our "favorite" speaker brands could all be manufactured there. We could all face future "QC" issues with any speaker, regardless of the brand.
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post #192 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 10:03 AM
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Soap opera antics. You show yourself in each post. My "help" to the world in this IT age, as you put it, is making sure you are shown for who you are.

I'm 37 years old. My wanking or what you were doing then has little to do with your vendetta. I own Rockets. You have no credibility. Hell, even Bland is staying away from your antics now... (no derision meant to you Bland..)

I have stayed out of your forum sh*t-piles until now. There is nothing productive or helpful about your activity. The data and answers have been all made clear some time ago. All that is left is your axe to grind and my intent to make sure the uneducated here have some clarity on your lack of ethics, credibility, and a life.

Rgds,
Curtis
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post #193 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Well you go right ahead Curtis and sorry your speakers measured so poorly. Also feel sorry that that's about all you have in your life. Look forward to seeing you in lots of threads son. Is TheBland another one that ruffled your paranoid little mind too? Perhaps fora are too difficult for you to handle in your current condition?
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post #194 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 10:13 AM
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You aren't sorry about anything - it's takes a conscience for that.


Count me out of your circus moving forward, I've had enough of your mud.

What I have in my life is outside of your reach - happiness.

I hope I helped clarify to everyone your true motivation. Be glad you won't see me. (nothing veiled there - no need to point it out to everyone.)

Rgds,
Curtis
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post #195 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Excellent, you show good judgement by knowing when to run away. Good choice I assure you Curt.
I'm sure everyone thanks you for clarifying why it was sooooooooo naughty to post a link to those measurements. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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post #196 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 10:17 AM
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IN the Immortal words of , well someone said it first,

"DON'T FEED THE TROLLS"

Guys it's hardly worth your time. Everything worth sayin has already been said. Let the troll have a conversation with himself.
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post #197 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6FU
Excellent, you show good judgement by knowing when to run away. Good choice I assure you Curt.
I'm sure everyone thanks you for clarifying why it was sooooooooo naughty to post a link to those measurements. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
I have read through this thread. You are a troubled soul. I think it best you leave this thread. :confused:

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #198 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 10:19 AM
 
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Curtis, Actually, 6FU is not Tubeguy ... Swordfish22 (99 % sure) is ... 6FU and I know each other from some private exchanges ... and generally have gotten along well.

But yes, there ARE soap opera antics here ...

First ... ANY speaker with the response curve Stereophile showed was HORRENDOUS ... and NOT worthy of consideration ..

BUT ... When we find speakers with FAR worse measured performance, The "Horrendous" adjective does not apply to Quads or any OTHER BiPolar speakers ..

Then, When BHK Labs measures the speakers (750's) as +/- 4 dB from 38 to 20,000 Hz ... they are now "inaccurate" ... but not horrendous. MLS has stated for YEARS these speakers were biased a bit towards warm ... where the 550 Mark II's are more neutral ... and measure +/- 2 dB from 38 to 20,000 Hz.

BHK ALSO measured the Paradigm S-8 Signatures, which sell for 4 TIMES the amount the 750's do ... and they are +/- 3 dB ...

THEN we have the Ascend 170's ... which measure the same as they did HERE ... +/- 1.5 dB ... (amazing for $328) ... (actually, I was pretty tickled to see this graph ... getting the same results that SoundStage did is gratifying) ...
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post #199 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 10:23 AM
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they 'are' the same, Craig, even if they are different people. I see the same intent, subterfuge, and malice. I am not talking about posting the data, strange how that seems to be why he perceives my posting...

Rgds,
Curtis
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post #200 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes the Ascends are amazing speakers regardless of price. Regardless until UAV rescinds their measurements or prints a retraction what they measured must be regarded as proper. Why this thread has gone to 10 pages over a speaker measuring badly only goes to show the vociferousness with which people will defend purchases they made. Non IOC do not engender this fierce loyalty for some reason.
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post #201 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by cwb4tx
they 'are' the same, Craig, even if they are different people. I see the same intent, subterfuge, and malice. I am not talking about posting the data, strange how that seems to be why he perceives my posting...
Do you also hear voices in your head and see things others don't? That you can perceive posting a link to published measurements as malicious with an eveil intent speaks volumes about your mental makeup.
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post #202 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 10:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6FU
Yes the Ascends are amazing speakers regardless of price. Regardless until UAV rescinds their measurements or prints a retraction what they measured must be regarded as proper. Why this thread has gone to 10 pages over a speaker measuring badly only goes to show the vociferousness with which people will defend purchases they made. Non IOC do not engender this fierce loyalty for some reason.
You START a thread with the CLEAR intent of getting into a flame war ... THEN act upset when you are called on it ?

One should not start what one cannot finish ...
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post #203 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by craigsub
You START a thread with the CLEAR intent of getting into a flame war ... THEN act upset when you are called on it ?

One should not start what one cannot finish ...
Craig I can more than finish anything you or anyone may choose to start. Do not doubt that for a moment. I am not upset or even remotely disturbed by this. At this point I can predict how these threads will go but I, unlike some, will not turn tail and run and you should know that. Again it was a link to a set of published and not good measurements there for all to see if it was a flame war I wanted I would have said see they DO sound like ****. . If they upset some people tough S*H*I*T. Take it up with UAV and how they've hurt such a fine gent and a wonderful company. Don't shoot the messenger. I have said I resect Mark and have owned his products, I have said I have not heard Rocket speakers yet. I also would not blindly believe Mark's version of the story any more than I would Ian Paisley or Andrew Welker until both sides have been heard. Gee I guess I have to work on my flame war techniques because they sure suck.
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post #204 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 10:33 AM
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If nothing else this thread is entertaining............:p
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post #205 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 10:36 AM
 
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Your intent was not that of a messenger ... you were judge and jury here. This ONE graph has YOU saying the speakers are "horrendous" and that Rockets are "Off your list" ... those are not the words of a dispassionate individual.

The fact that BHK labs posted a TOTALLY different graph is irrelevant to you.

BTW ... Unlike you, I HAVE auditioned all the speakers mentioned in this thread ... I don't pass judgement on something I have not heard ...
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post #206 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally posted by GeneticDrift
If nothing else this thread is entertaining............:p
Could have been educational if anyone had picked up on basic metal driver design parameters. But nooooooooooooooooo they'd rather INSULT. Yes insult I tells ya. Good thing I have rhino skin.
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post #207 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by craigsub
Your intent was not that of a messenger ... you were judge and jury here. This ONE graph has YOU saying the speakers are "horrendous" and that Rockets are "Off your list" ... those are not the words of a dispassionate individual.

The fact that BHK labs posted a TOTALLY different graph is irrelevant to you.

BTW ... Unlike you, I HAVE auditioned all the speakers mentioned in this thread ... I don't pass judgement on something I have not heard ...
No it's a page of graphs and I have not passed judgement. What part of I HAVE NOT HEARD THE ROCKETS is most confusing to you? I can guarantee you that the ones measured, however, would sound rather hellish.

JJG auditioned the original RS750, which has since been replaced by a refined version, the RS750 Signature Edition, at the same price. "Featuring the exact same components as the original RS750," according to AV123, "the new Signature model features a crossover upgrade engineered specifically to release the full potential the world-famous Vifa XT tweeter has to offer." Our measurement samples were not the same as those JJG auditioned, but were, in fact, the Signature versions. The other speakers in the system—the center and surrounds—were also different samples than those auditioned, but those models are, to the best of our knowledge, unchanged from the auditioned set. The Rocket RS750's ported enclosure was tuned to approximately 35Hz, with a minimum impedance of 6.3 ohms at 530Hz. With a nominal impedance that I would rate at 7 to 8 ohms, this should be a very easy load to drive. The speaker's sensitivity measured approximately 86dB/2.83V/m.

The horizontal front response of the RS750 is shown in Fig.1 (violet). This is the pseudo-anechoic response averaged over a 30-degree forward horizontal angle (±15 degrees), at tweeter height, combined with the nearfield responses of the woofer and port. The effective lower limit of the speaker was 29.5Hz (-10dB relative to the peak output at 64Hz).

Fig.1: Rocket RS750, pseudo-anechoic response off the horizontal axis at 45 degrees (red) and 60 degrees (blue).

The averaged front horizontal response of the RS750 is uneven. There is a sagging response in the upper midrange (centered around 750Hz), then a serious valley between 3.5kHz and 5.5kHz. This dip may have been deliberate, in order to reduce a peak at the lower end of this range—still visible as a small but abrupt peak around 3.5kHz. The peak looks like a pre-crossover residual of the sort that many metal-cone drivers exhibit above the top of their operating ranges—peaks that can affect the audible range if not suppressed by careful design of the crossover network.

Above 5.5kHz, the on-axis average response is reasonably smooth, but reduced in level by several dB. The high-frequency dispersion is a bit narrow, a characteristic we have seen before with bullet-ring tweeters.

From the vertical response shown in Fig.2, it's hard to predict the best listening axis. Experimentation would probably be needed to find the best compromise. These response variations are almost certainly due to the complex nature of the crossover filters.

Fig.2: Rocket RS750, pseudo-anechoic response at 15 degrees above (red) and 15 degrees below (blue) the tweeter.

The Rocket RSC200's cabinet was tuned to about 41Hz, with a minimum impedance of 4.6 ohms at a number of places (the impedance curve of both speakers is very flat above 100Hz). I would rate the nominal impedance at 5 ohms. The speaker should be easy to drive, assuming an amplifier that's competent into a 4 ohm load. The speaker's sensitivity measured about 87dB/2.83V/m.

The measured front horizontal response of the RSC200, taken on the tweeter axis and averaged in the same manner as described above for the RS750, is shown in Fig.3. The speaker's effective lower limit (-10dB) is approximately 39Hz relative to its output at 100Hz.

Fig.3: Rocket RSC200, pseudo-anechoic response off the horizontal axis at 45 degrees (red) and 60 degrees (blue).

The measured frequency response of the RSC200 is significantly different than the RS750's. There is a suckout several dB deep centered at 600Hz, indicative of a crossover misalignment, either in phase or frequency. Above this frequency, however, the response is smooth—smoother, in fact, than that of the RS750. The 600Hz midrange valley remains about the same in magnitude off-axis, though it has moved down slightly in frequency.

The vertical off-axis response of the RSC200 (Fig.4) suggests that listening on-axis would be the best option, with next-best being slightly below the axis.

Fig.4: Rocket RSC200, pseudo-anechoic response at 15 degrees above (red) and 15 degrees below (blue) tweeter.

The flaws we see in the measured response produced by the Rocket speakers may be more a result of quality-control variations than design, since many of the problems areas were clustered around the crossover frequencies. Based on this, it's possible that the samples auditioned by JJG (in the case of the RS750, an earlier version, though the rest of the speakers have apparently been unchanged) did not exhibit the anomalies we see here. To insure that the problem was not restricted to a single sample of the RS750, however, we also measured the other speaker of the left-right pair with essentially similar results, though without the peak at 2.5kHz.—TJN
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post #208 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 10:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6FU
No it's a page of graphs and I have not passed judgement. What part of I HAVE NOT HEARD THE ROCKETS is most confusing to you? I can guarantee you that the ones measured, however, would sound rather hellish.
Yes, You DID pass judgement ... and YES ... the ones measured WOULD sound hellish ... yet they got an excellent review ...

You have said Rockets "were off your list" even though YOU never heard them. THAT is passing judgement by ANY standard.
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post #209 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Off my list is passing judgement? For ME at THIS TIME until things are clarified they ARE OFF my list. If that's passing judgement then I guess I passed judgement but really my opinion should mean nothing wjatsoever to you. The real judgement lies at TJN's feet why not email him and call him a bad man, a very very bad man?
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post #210 of 545 Old 03-13-2005, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6FU
These are HORRENDOUSLY bad.

http://ultimateavmag.com/speakersyst...et/index4.html

Quote:
Originally posted by 6FU
You my friend just nailed the reality of online forums. I always liked the Absolute Sound approach of listening and never liked when Stereophile added measurements to everything. Be interesting to see other internet only companies start to get more reviews. I'd bet there'd be a lot of surprises to be had.
If you believe this, then how in the world can you make your first post? I see no reason to read any further into this thread as it is quite apparent your just here to stir the pot. Anyone even remotely reasonable would have posted more than just this.

Nice to know the trolls still rule at AVS. Good thing it isn't a thread glowing about Rocket or it would have to be deleted as advertising.
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