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post #91 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 06:05 AM
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Thats funny :rolleyes: You dislike speakers you have never heard :confused:
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post #92 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 06:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Soundstage
I like LG, MF and CS the most. I miss CG a lot and think JA and RD are overrated. RD never heard a speaker he didn't like.
For those who don't know, LG is Larry Greenhill. Here is a link to his excellent review of the Bohlender-Graebener Radia 520i loudspeakers.

http://stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/1204bg/

LG's conclusion? "At $4000 per pair, This loudspeaker is the best high end value I've heard in a long time"...."It gets my strongest recommendation" ...

The Frequency response ? +4/-10 dB from 55 to 17,500 Hz, including a 7 dB trough from 1500 to 4000 Hz.

One aspect of Stereophile's reviews that I REALLY like is their posting all listening tests and conclusions, THEN posting measurements.

To most people, one look at the graph, and one would think these speakers are TERRIBLE. Listen, though, and one will come to a different conclusion.

There are examples of horn loaded (Calix and Avant-Garde), More Traditional Dynamic (Sonus Faber Stradavari Homage at $40,000 and +/- 5 dB and the Krell line) and planar speakers (Quad and Magnepan) which measure TERRIBLY compared to speakers like the Veritas and Revels.

Yet ALL these speakers have been raved about BY the likes of Larry Greenhill and Michael Fremer ...

So guys, let's leave the bench racing out of this, ok ?
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post #93 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Soundstage
Contrary to my listening impressions, the measurements do not show a laid-back midrange. Nor do the off-axis curves, which differ from the front-axis average mainly in their faster high-frequency rolloff typical of most speakers.

Quote:
Originally posted by drunkonjack
Thats funny :rolleyes: You dislike speakers you have never heard :confused:
Yup... he just said it. :)
Some times it takes longer than others, but sooner or later they get caught up in their own double-talk. :)

Craig

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post #94 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 06:24 AM
 
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Measuring physically large speakers is always to some extent an exercise in frustration, because the inherent assumption made when a speaker is measured—that the microphone is in the farfield—is no longer correct at all frequencies.

Ribbon, planars, electrostatic, bipolar and dipolar speakers are notoriously difficult to measure as you know Craig. 'nuff said. If you think the speaker I was referring to can compare to the Radia well God bless ye but I won't be drawn into an argument with you or the usual suspects of Uncle Mark followers, try as you all might.
FWIW I don't like B-G speakers AT ALL. I happened to have heard them long before I saw the measurements as well. It's not hard to infer from a graph how a speaker will sound and if it's worthy of auition according to our own individual needs.
Notice none of what you have referred to have been raved about by me. I've never been a Maggie fan even back in the 70s when I sold them. I do like the MIDS in the Quads but have only owned the 63 and the 57. If I like a reviewer it most certainly doesn't mean I necessarily agree with them but rather I like their writing style. For the record most reviewers tend to nail things correctly MUCH more often than people posting in this thread. Myself not included of course.

;) ;)
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post #95 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by craigsub

To most people, one look at the graph, and one would think these speakers are TERRIBLE. Listen, though, and one will come to a different conclusion.



Hmmm... Now where have I heard that line before.. ??? ;)

Craig

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post #96 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Soundstage
Ribbon, planars, electrostatic, bipolar and dipolar speakers are notoriously difficult to measure as you know Craig. 'nuff said. If you think the speaker I was referring to can compare to the Radia well God bless ye but I won't be drawn into an argument with you or the usual suspects of Uncle Mark followers, try as you all might.
I am just happily quoting what you said. :)
Nope, no intentions of drawing you into an argument. I give you your props.. you are the true master of that.

Craig

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post #97 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Soundstage
Measuring physically large speakers is always to some extent an exercise in frustration, because the inherent assumption made when a speaker is measured—that the microphone is in the farfield—is no longer correct at all frequencies.

Ribbon, planars, electrostatic, bipolar and dipolar speakers are notoriously difficult to measure as you know Craig. 'nuff said. If you think the speaker I was referring to can compare to the Radia well God bless ye but I won't be drawn into an argument with you or the usual suspects of Uncle Mark followers, try as you all might.
FWIW I don't like B-G speakers AT ALL. I happened to have heard them long before I saw the measurements as well. It's not hard to infer from a graph how a speaker will sound and if it's worthy of auition according to our own individual needs.
Soundstage, Yet Larry Greenhill put the B-G speakers on the recommended components list. And I mentioned also regular, old fashioned Dynamic speakers like the Sonus Faber and Krell.

The Krell Resolution 1's measured performance, at $11,000, has a lot in common with the Rocket 750 signatures you posted the graph to recently, including a frequency response of +5/-7 dB from about 30 to 18,000 Hz.

It has a 6 dB trough from 2500 to 5000 Hz, just as the 750's did. It did NOT have the 3 dB peak just before the 6 dB trough, though Ultimate A/V itself stated the other 750 ALSO did not have this peak.

Again, There are DOZENS of examples in which speakers that did not measure flat have gotten RAVE reviews from Stereophile/Ultimate A/V.

Michael Fremer loved the Krells ... even with the measured performance.
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post #98 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 06:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by craigsub
Soundstage, Yet Larry Greenhill put the B-G speakers on the recommended components list. And I mentioned also regular, old fashioned Dynamic speakers like the Sonus Faber and Krell.

The Krell Resolution 1's measured performance, at $11,000, has a lot in common with the Rocket 750 signatures you posted the graph to recently, including a frequency response of +5/-7 dB from about 30 to 18,000 Hz.

It has a 6 dB trough from 2500 to 5000 Hz, just as the 750's did. It did NOT have the 3 dB peak just before the 6 dB trough, though Ultimate A/V itself stated the other 750 ALSO did not have this peak.

Again, There are DOZENS of examples in which speakers that did not measure flat have gotten RAVE reviews from Stereophile/Ultimate A/V.

Michael Fremer loved the Krells ... even with the measured performance.
I hated the Krells.
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post #99 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Soundstage
I hated the Krells.
Well HEY!!! They must be terrible speakers then. :rolleyes:

Craig

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post #100 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally posted by Soundstage
I hated the Krells.
Soundstage, There is nothing wrong with your not preferring the Krells. Michael Fremer has always been shown to be an excellent reviewer, and one not given to hyperbole.

He listens to a speaker, and gives a very accurate description of the sound. The Krell is a GREAT design.

NO speaker is for everyone ... and one of the purposes of the GTG I am working on is to let a bunch of guys listen to a variety of speakers .. and to REQUIRE them to PUBLICLY state what they are hearing BEFORE they have an identity.

THAT requires some courage for the panel volunteers...
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post #101 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 06:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by craigsub
Soundstage, There is nothing wrong with your not preferring the Krells. Michael Fremer has always been shown to be an excellent reviewer, and one not given to hyperbole.

He listens to a speaker, and gives a very accurate description of the sound. The Krell is a GREAT design.

NO speaker is for everyone ... and one of the purposes of the GTG I am working on is to let a bunch of guys listen to a variety of speakers .. and to REQUIRE them to PUBLICLY state what they are hearing BEFORE they have an identity.

THAT requires some courage for the panel volunteers...
I'd hardly call it "courage" but whatever. Fremer tends to like D'Agostino's products for some reason.
I agree with this quote from Mikey:
"In other words, the Resolution 1 is a complex, multidriver design of the sort that makes for interesting measurements and a wideband response, but often—though not always—disjointed, incoherent sound. Above the bottom end was a rich, coherent midrange with an emphasis on smoothness over resolution "
This is the funniest:
One of the reasons it was so immediately appealing was that its top few octaves are probably rolled off—subtly, which is why this wasn't obvious on first listen—and some listeners may wish for greater sparkle and air on top. Limiting a speaker's top-end response suppresses such nasties as tape hiss, grain, and the high-frequency hash present on many recordings, analog or digital. The result was a relaxed fit that was easy on the ears. If it's done correctly, as it was here, music sounds coherent and tonally correct, with nothing missing.

OF COURSE SOMETHING'S MISSING: THE TOP FEW OCTAVES!!!!! I heard it wthin 30 seconds on cymbals.

This is hilarious too:

No doubt Dan D'Agostino had to make some compromises in cabinet rigidity and driver quality in order to bring to market for $11,000/pair such an ambitious, grandly scaled loudspeaker.

The 2.4i are as ambitious, if not moreso, yet sound and measure better and they managed to get them to market for $4500.

The big Krell's voltage sensitivity came in slightly below the specified 90dB/W/m, at 88.7dB/2.83V/m. This will be due in part to the speaker's subdued high treble (see later). This is still usefully higher than average, but working against this is a truly brutal impedance character. As can be seen in fig.1, the impedance remains at or below 3 ohms for two-thirds of the audioband, relieved only by the reflex peaks in the low bass and a region between 4 and 6 ohms in the upper midrange/low treble.

Compounding the drive difficulty of this low impedance is an electrical phase angle that varies considerably. So not only is the minimum impedance a current-hungry 1.8 ohms at 58Hz, this is combined with a phase angle of –25 degrees. And a little lower in frequency, even though the impedance has risen to a more manageable 3.8 ohms at 43Hz, the phase angle is now –61 degrees! This behavior should not present any problems to Krell's own amplifiers, which have traditionally offered high current delivery, but some tube amplifiers are going to be gasping for breath when hit with high levels of bass information.

You call this a great design?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!!!? :D :D :D

I found them to be a total mess in two different rooms.
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post #102 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 07:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Soundstage
I'd hardly call it "courage" but whatever. Fremer tends to like D'Agostino's products for some reason.
I agree with this quote from Mikey:
"In other words, the Resolution 1 is a complex, multidriver design of the sort that makes for interesting measurements and a wideband response, but often—though not always—disjointed, incoherent sound. Above the bottom end was a rich, coherent midrange with an emphasis on smoothness over resolution "
This is the funniest:
One of the reasons it was so immediately appealing was that its top few octaves are probably rolled off—subtly, which is why this wasn't obvious on first listen—and some listeners may wish for greater sparkle and air on top. Limiting a speaker's top-end response suppresses such nasties as tape hiss, grain, and the high-frequency hash present on many recordings, analog or digital. The result was a relaxed fit that was easy on the ears. If it's done correctly, as it was here, music sounds coherent and tonally correct, with nothing missing.

OF COURSE SOMETHING'S MISSING: THE TOP FEW OCTAVES!!!!! I heard it wthin 30 seconds on cymbals.

This is hilarious too:

No doubt Dan D'Agostino had to make some compromises in cabinet rigidity and driver quality in order to bring to market for $11,000/pair such an ambitious, grandly scaled loudspeaker.

The 2.4i are as ambitious if not moreso yet sound and measure better and they managed to get them to market for $4500.


I found them to be a total mess in two different rooms.
Yes, Soundstage, It takes some courage to post one's opinion in a blind speaker listening test.

Here is a link to the entire review :

http://stereophile.com/speakerreviews/1104krell/

As for the Veritas, It is YOUR opinion that they SOUND better. SOME Music lovers MIGHT just disagree.
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post #103 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 07:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by craigsub
Yes, Soundstage, It takes some courage to post one's opinion in a blind speaker listening test.

Here is a link to the entire review :

http://stereophile.com/speakerreviews/1104krell/

As for the Veritas, It is YOUR opinion that they SOUND better. SOME Music lovers MIGHT just disagree.
Not if they like hearing the top couple octaves they wouldn't.:D :D :D
Thanks for the chuckle though.
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post #104 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 07:26 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Soundstage



OF COURSE SOMETHING'S MISSING: THE TOP FEW OCTAVES!!!!! I heard it wthin 30 seconds on cymbals.



You call this a great design?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!!!? :D :D :D

I found them to be a total mess in two different rooms.
To those hoping to learn something about speakers in this thread, here is an excellent example of the Hyperbole that gus like Michael Fremer manage to avoid. "Top few octaves" means, in the minimum, the top three octaves.

This means, according to Soundstage that the Krells were missing at least the octaves from 2560 to 20,480 Hz. That represents the top three octaves. One look at the graphs in the review will refute that.

And yes, I am sure the Krells are somewhat more dificult to set up than are the Veritas. But Soundstage, should you ever need assistance in positioning and calibrating a complex set of speakers like the Krells or Sonus Fabers, I will be glad to help ... ;)
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post #105 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 07:32 AM
 
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Too bad Mikey who had help from Dan setting them up didn't get them in a better position. You may be willing to live with anomalies in FR but I won't and don't have to.
OBVIOUSLY Mike was clueless as to exactly what an octave is but I really didn't think it needed pointing out.
The HF is down enough that it will kill air, transparency, overtones and decay. Glad YOU could live with that.
Anyways happy Sunday I'm off to watch Steve Zissou on DVD. Keep it real Craigster.
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post #106 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
 
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And ... with special thanks to Soundstage for an excellent half-time comedy routine, back to our regularly scheduled program.

Due to some requests, we may just include a pair of Von Schweikert VR-4 Jr's into the mix ... With our already having a pair of Onix Ref 3's here, and the Veritas 2.4i's on the way, perhaps we will split this into two tests, as mentioned earlier ... Axioms, Rockets and Paradigms in one ... VR-4 Jr's, 2.4i's and Ref 3's in the other.

Any Von Schweikert owners care to chime in ?
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post #107 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 07:39 AM
 
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Craig. the laughs as usual, were supplied by you. You really must look into increasing your technical knowledge before you try to make technical points. It would be ever so much MORE effective and valid. Should make for a helluva listening party with your insight. :D :D :D
Again thanks for supplying my entire family with guffaws this time.
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post #108 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 07:39 AM
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I owned a pair od VR1's at one time ;) They sounded real nice :)

Never heard the VR4's
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post #109 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Soundstage
Craig the laughs, as usual, were supplied by you. You really must look into increasing your technical knowledge before you try to make technical points. It would be ever so much MORE effective and valid.
Again thanks for supplying my entire family with guffaws this time.
Craig had it right the first time . You are quite funny the way you keep coming back to start this little debates.

Craig is more respected than someone tat has to continue to come back using different names all the time .

You sir are someone that I believe in nothing you have to say .
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post #110 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Unfortunatelty, Soundstage uses quotes in a way to mislead people ... When discussing the *design* of the Krells, yes, Fremer did say:

"The Resolution 1 is a complex, multidriver design of the sort that makes for interesting measurements and a wideband response, but often-though not always-disjointed incoherent sound."

This was merely his take after reading about the design ... this was NOT a comment about any listening test.

When discussing the actual listening experience, Fremer said nothing to corroborate this ... what he DID do was to accurately describe a speaker ... I recommend to anyone that he/she read the entire review text rather than small snippets of the review that people will use to "prove a position of being correct."

And Soundstage, with ALL your clearly held statements regarding your beliefs, I would think the 3.5 hour drive to Erie in order for you to prove to the world just HOW good you are at pointing out what makes a good speaker would be VERY easy for you to do.

Why won't you join us in the spirit of goodwill and fellowship ?
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post #111 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 08:07 AM
 
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But often-though not always-disjointed incoherent sound
is not out of context at all. The Krell is a disaster and he says it sounds disjointed but not always. Of course it sounds better if you don't like hearing high frequencies at all.
Craig I spent a week in Erie one afternoon and that was quite enough. As for goodwill and fellowship I have no interest in meeting any of the good folks who are posting in this thread whatsoever. Maybe I'm just picking how I spend my time. I earn my living from sound. it's not a hobby for me unlike you.
Cheers.
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post #112 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Soundstage
But often-though not always-disjointed incoherent sound
is not out of context at all. The Krell is a disaster and he says it sounds disjointed but not always. Of course it sounds better if you don't like hearing high frequencies at all.
Craig I spent a week in Erie one afternoon and that was quite enough. As for goodwill and fellowship I have no interest in meeting any of the good folks who are posting in this thread whatsoever. Maybe I'm just picking how I spend my time. I earn my living from sound. it's not a hobby for me unlike you.
Cheers.
Well ... Should you change your mind, and participate in the blind test, $1000 will be donated to the ELF cause that AVS sponsors.
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post #113 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by craigsub


THAT requires some courage for the panel volunteers...

Quote:
Originally posted by Soundstage
I'd hardly call it "courage" but whatever.
For people who genuinely love this hobby and truly like to experiment with the differences of speakers, it requires little courage. Maybe more curiosity. :)
As for Soundstage, courage is the appropriate definition.
He will never show. After all, there are so many things un-related to speakers, that would be found out about this Troll full of hate.
Come on Soundstage, take Craig up on his extended offer to attend his speaker showdown.


Craig

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post #114 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 08:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by craigsub
Well ... Should you change your mind, and participate in the blind test, $1000 will be donated to the ELF cause that AVS sponsors.
Thanks but no thanks. I have a bunch of projects for the fall. Have fun with it though.
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post #115 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Soundstage
I earn my living from sound. it's not a hobby for me unlike you.
Cheers.

With this comment, two thoughts quickly come to mind:

1. This explains allot of your venom toward certain speakers.

2. Very unfortunate for the audio industry that people like you represent it.

Craig

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post #116 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 08:31 AM
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Since you earn a living from sound, I would think you would be all over this GTG.
If for nothing else, to forgo future arguments.
I for one, would very much like to hear your opinions in a double blind test.
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post #117 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 08:34 AM
 
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Originally posted by Seamus
SS
Since you earn a living from sound, I would think you would be all over this GTG.
If for nothing else, to forgo future arguments.
I for one, would very much like to hear your opinions in a double blind test.
I don't make my living from selling sound products or making sound products but creating and producing the sound you all listen to. A couple people seem, as usual, to be totally confused by this. If I don't like certain speakers it's because they piss on what I spend so much time creating. As for future arguments, I don't argue because I'm usually right. I educate.
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post #118 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seamus
SS
Since you earn a living from sound, I would think you would be all over this GTG.
If for nothing else, to forgo future arguments.
I for one, would very much like to hear your opinions in a double blind test.
Don't hold your breath...
Guys like this come along every so often because perhaps that someone has been personally hurt (in their opinion).
I personally doubt speakers are even at the bottom of this debate.


Craig :)

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post #119 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Soundstage
I don't argue because I'm usually right. I educate.
From the people who brought you "The Nutty Professor", a new film :

"The Unknown Professor" ... :rolleyes:
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post #120 of 482 Old 04-24-2005, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Soundstage
I don't make my living from selling sound products but creating the sound you all listen to. A couple people seem, as usual, to be totally confused by this. If I don't like certain speakers it's because they piss on what I spend so much time creating. As for future arguments, I don't argue because I'm usually right. I educate.
Unless you fill us in, we are left to speculate. ;)
Perhaps the companies you spew your hate toward pulled the plug on your product? Maybe its your product and not the speakers that were of poor quality. Hmmm. ;) ;) ;) ;)

Craig

Domino's donÂt fall all at once, they fall one at a time...
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