Paradigm Owners Thread - Page 154 - AVS Forum
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post #4591 of 30375 Old 05-30-2007, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

See this webpage, which has, near the beginning, a description of the design criteria of a good crossover:

* Rapid response cutoff outside the crossover frequency limits, so a driver doesn't receive frequencies it can't reproduce well.
* Uniform overall system frequency response, to avoid artificial coloration of the music.
* Good transient response for crisp reproduction of impulsive sounds.
* Minimum resistive losses and distortion.

http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/Sysde...ove_Design.htm

A good crossover design will aim to meet these criteria. Your ears will be the best judge of how well all of the speaker components are working together to reach these goals, assuming good electronics are at work, too.

thanks, looks like a good read

super dirty , super clean , pow
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post #4592 of 30375 Old 05-30-2007, 08:37 AM
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I am considering Paradigms for my brother-in-law's HT setup. Perhaps some of you can take a look at the question I posed. Sorry if this cross-posting is bad form. I didn't want to repost it all here - I thought that would be worse. This seems to be the place for opinions on Paradigm, maybe someone can give their opinion.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=854129

Thanks,

Ben
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post #4593 of 30375 Old 05-30-2007, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Sounds like something is wrong with your center... Make it clear to your dealer right off...
I have a 690, with 100's and they sound great and sonically identical in my ears...

If a replacement center sounds the same, then I would want to return everything and look elsewhere for speakers... If you can't have an identically matched sound stage, then id say forget it.

Thanks for the feedback. I brought the C5 back to the dealer where it exhibited the same problems against a pair of new S6s, and with just the right deep voice it would actually crackle slightly. Apparently this a signature sound of a bad tweeter which hasn't failed completely (hence the ability to play the highest test tones.) They sent me home with a test C3 just to see if its a family problem or unique to this C5, and while it is a significant improvement on the high end, it's still too chesty on the low end. I've done some digging, and a C3v1 review in Ultimate AV and a C5v1 review in Home Theater both show a ~5dB drop across the octave from 600Hz to 1200Hz, which is right in the midrange, and it's a fault the S8s don't have.

I didn't have much time and wanted to get the C3 back, so my last test was to take a Mac with iTunes and play a CD with the the equalizer (this is the only EQ I could get my hands on) set to mimick the measured differences between the S8v1 and the C3v1 on the S8v2 by a adding a modest boost at 500Hz, a drop at 1000Hz, a small drop at 2000Hz, and a modest drop on the 8000Hz setting to offset a rise on the S8s, and my S8v2 sounded very similar to the C3v2. The high end on the S8s was still more open than the C3, which I doubt the C5 will correct. I didn't have time to try the reverse, but when the C5 gets "fixed" the dealer is going to try to drag in a parametric equalizer to see if we can get a better match with the S8s by filling in the hole on the center channel.

In the end, the C3 and C5 don't sound like the S8 in the midrange, and the difference in sound seems similar enough to the measured differences in the v1 line to suggest one shouldn't expect them to sound the same. I still love the S8s, but I really wish I hadn't ordered the center. As a special order the restocking fee is significant, and I'm left hoping that I can EQ may way to something tolerable, which I don't consider acceptable at this price.
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post #4594 of 30375 Old 05-30-2007, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by UniqueName View Post

Thanks for the feedback. I brought the C5 back to the dealer where it exhibited the same problems against a pair of new S6s, and with just the right deep voice it would actually crackle slightly. Apparently this a signature sound of a bad tweeter which hasn't failed completely (hence the ability to play the highest test tones.) They sent me home with a test C3 just to see if its a family problem or unique to this C5, and while it is a significant improvement on the high end, it's still too chesty on the low end. I've done some digging, and a C3v1 review in Ultimate AV and a C5v1 review in Home Theater both show a ~5dB drop across the octave from 600Hz to 1200Hz, which is right in the midrange, and it's a fault the S8s don't have.

I didn't have much time and wanted to get the C3 back, so my last test was to take a Mac with iTunes and play a CD with the the equalizer (this is the only EQ I could get my hands on) set to mimick the measured differences between the S8v1 and the C3v1 on the S8v2 by a adding a modest boost at 500Hz, a drop at 1000Hz, a small drop at 2000Hz, and a modest drop on the 8000Hz setting to offset a rise on the S8s, and my S8v2 sounded very similar to the C3v2. The high end on the S8s was still more open than the C3, which I doubt the C5 will correct. I didn't have time to try the reverse, but when the C5 gets "fixed" the dealer is going to try to drag in a parametric equalizer to see if we can get a better match with the S8s by filling in the hole on the center channel.

In the end, the C3 and C5 don't sound like the S8 in the midrange, and the difference in sound seems similar enough to the measured differences in the v1 line to suggest one shouldn't expect them to sound the same. I still love the S8s, but I really wish I hadn't ordered the center. As a special order the restocking fee is significant, and I'm left hoping that I can EQ may way to something tolerable, which I don't consider acceptable at this price.

I own the S8's and C5 v2, and for what it is worth, I think they sound unbelievably good and have 0 issues sonically. Sorry to hear of your experience.
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post #4595 of 30375 Old 05-30-2007, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UniqueName View Post

As a special order the restocking fee is significant, and I'm left hoping that I can EQ may way to something tolerable, which I don't consider acceptable at this price.

I agree, if the L/C/R speakers are supposed to be timbre matched, I would call that false advertising. Your dealer isn't serving you well (mine has a no questions asked return policy for the first 30 days after purchase).

FWIW, years ago I used an EQ to halfway match a Def Tech center to a pairs of Thiels I had. Worked pretty well. Only downside was the higher noise floor added by the analog EQ, that may or may not be an issue for you. Just remember if you go with a digital EQ unit, you need to take in consideration the extra time delay involved in the A/D-D/A conversion.

But then again it may be a placement issue. Have you tried moving the center up/down, in/out?
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post #4596 of 30375 Old 05-31-2007, 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by jkhome View Post

I agree, if the L/C/R speakers are supposed to be timbre matched, I would call that false advertising. Your dealer isn't serving you well (mine has a no questions asked return policy for the first 30 days after purchase).

FWIW, years ago I used an EQ to halfway match a Def Tech center to a pairs of Thiels I had. Worked pretty well. Only downside was the higher noise floor added by the analog EQ, that may or may not be an issue for you. Just remember if you go with a digital EQ unit, you need to take in consideration the extra time delay involved in the A/D-D/A conversion.

But then again it may be a placement issue. Have you tried moving the center up/down, in/out?

I've spent about three days on placement, including removing the TV and some furniture, and moving the center far higher than the base of my TV screen without the TV to reflect noise from the rear ports. I've also done a lot of single channel testing as well to avoid stereo effects (say pick the left channel of a song and then switch between one S8 and one center placed where the S8 was at various heights.)

I've listened to a lot of speakers before looking at the measurements, and to date I've nailed every significant peak. I have a harder time with notches, where I can clearly hear something is wrong but typically perceive it as overemphasis of the space above and below the notch. Since most of the energy of a voice is in the midrange, a 5dB notch towards the upper midrange leaves much of the remaining energy of voices on the low side of the notch, which is where I'm perceiving an overemphasis. I have yet to hear a speaker with anomalous frequency response that could make up for it with dynamics, imaging or soundstage, and unfortunately this wasn't the exception.

As for the electronics, every surround source I have involves some form of lossy compression, so I'm not striving for the ultimate limits here, as long as there aren't any glaring errors in the overall sound. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the real draw for the S8s is that they don't have any glaring faults so I can sink into the music and just enjoy it. Against the S8s, two other speaker pairs I heard were better for most things but had a single glaring flaw each that I couldn't get over because my focus kept getting drawn to those flaws. As long as the increased noise floor doesn't become a dominant sound, it should blend in with the other system and source anomolies and I can enjoy the overall experience.

My dealer has a 7 day return policy, and even though they carry Paradigm up to a few of the Signature bits, they're claiming the C5 is a special order as they don't keep one on the floor. Within these limits, the dealer is actively working to help here, and there is still a chance we can come up with a workable solution. I'll be upgrading the video side of my system within the next year, and I'll be applying what I'm learning from this experience.
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post #4597 of 30375 Old 05-31-2007, 04:09 AM
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It would be interesting if your dealer would let you try a third S8. But then your screen would have to go much higher.
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post #4598 of 30375 Old 05-31-2007, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UniqueName View Post

My dealer has a 7 day return policy, and even though they carry Paradigm up to a few of the Signature bits, they're claiming the C5 is a special order as they don't keep one on the floor. Within these limits, the dealer is actively working to help here, and there is still a chance we can come up with a workable solution. I'll be upgrading the video side of my system within the next year, and I'll be applying what I'm learning from this experience.

This isn't going to help your situation in the immediate future, but if your dealer indicating the C5's are special order only, then there's a problem with the entire business model that Paradigm is trying to run and you should complain to Paradigm.

Paradigm is very sticky about dealers selling 'outside their zone'. It's all very guarded. Each dealer has zones they're allowed to work in and others are NOT allowed to cross these boundries. Paradigm also therefore doesn't allow their products to be sold legally through the internet.

I'm not faulting this logic by Paradigm. It's actually good when it works as it ensures that you buy the right speaker for you by actually going to a knowledgeable dealer who is able to demo the speakers for you.

But if some dealers are refusing to carry stock because it's 'special order', this whole business model breaks down and people end up having to buy sight unseen (or unheard in this case). So it's exactly like buying through the internet ....

Call Paradigm. Tell them you want to listen to a C5 before purchase and ask them how that's supposed to work if the C5 is only 'special order' and dealers cannot keep them in stock. (They may tell you that it is not 'special order' only which would prove something about your dealer....)

The Signature line is not inexpensive - nobody should have to have these sorts of problems.

kal
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post #4599 of 30375 Old 05-31-2007, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by kal View Post

This isn't going to help your situation in the immediate future, but if your dealer indicating the C5's are special order only, then there's a problem with the entire business model that Paradigm is trying to run and you should complain to Paradigm.

Paradigm is very sticky about dealers selling 'outside their zone'. It's all very guarded. Each dealer has zones they're allowed to work in and others are NOT allowed to cross these boundries. Paradigm also therefore doesn't allow their products to be sold legally through the internet.

I'm not faulting this logic by Paradigm. It's actually good when it works as it ensures that you buy the right speaker for you by actually going to a knowledgeable dealer who is able to demo the speakers for you.

But if some dealers are refusing to carry stock because it's 'special order', this whole business model breaks down and people end up having to buy sight unseen (or unheard in this case). So it's exactly like buying through the internet ....

Call Paradigm. Tell them you want to listen to a C5 before purchase and ask them how that's supposed to work if the C5 is only 'special order' and dealers cannot keep them in stock. (They may tell you that it is not 'special order' only which would prove something about your dealer....)

The Signature line is not inexpensive - nobody should have to have these sorts of problems.

kal

I already own the thing. Since it arrived with a flaky tweeter, it's still in the shop. The midrange problems seem to have nothing to do with the tweeter as a C3 seems to exhibit the same problems. I was mostly concerned with music and wanted a reasonable surround experience, so I focused entirely on the front pair and took a gamble on the center because I couldn't get access to one. While I didn't expect a perfect match with the center, I didn't realize that it could be that far out. I didn't go to the measurements until after I realized that the centers sound really different. The lesson for others is not to make the same mistakes I made.

As I look more closely at the two reviews I sited previously, both the S4 and the S8 have a rise in the 600-1200Hz range, which further accentuates the ~5dB drop of the C3 and C5 across the same range. Likewise the S4 and S8 drop in the 300-600Hz octave where the two centers have a rise of a few dB. All in all you're talking a near 4dB difference across one octave and a near 7dB difference across the next octave. If I'm going to call Paradigm, I'd be asking why speakers that are supposed to be "matched" and are rated at +/-2dB across most of the spectrum diverge so strongly in the midrange where voices are, which seems to make up a significant part of the center channel sound.
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post #4600 of 30375 Old 06-01-2007, 01:51 AM
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Hi ALL
I just joined
really like the Studio 40, want to get a Premier stand
I have to pick between 18" and 22" stand height, kinda a big difference.
Any suggestions? I wish there was 20" actually
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post #4601 of 30375 Old 06-01-2007, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scoopx88 View Post

Hi ALL
I just joined
really like the Studio 40, want to get a Premier stand
I have to pick between 18" and 22" stand height, kinda a big difference.
Any suggestions? I wish there was 20" actually

the one that will put the tweeter closest to ear level will sound the best at
where you normally set while watching and listening to music and movies.
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post #4602 of 30375 Old 06-02-2007, 05:20 PM
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Any Paradigm owners out there that have a Sony KDSR50 or 60XBR1 with matching SUGW12 stand? I just purchased a Paradigm V5 Monitor CC-290 which I am having a tough time trying to find a way to mount it. I would like to place it in the Sony stand,but it does not fit. Even when I remove the top shelf of the stand, the brace for the top shelf is in the way. Anyone have an idea how I can mount this? I am in an apartment and do not want to be putting holes in the walls,I am only here until April,and mounting it on top of the television is out. Thanks for the info,
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post #4603 of 30375 Old 06-03-2007, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by baniels View Post

I am considering Paradigms for my brother-in-law's HT setup. Perhaps some of you can take a look at the question I posed. Sorry if this cross-posting is bad form. I didn't want to repost it all here - I thought that would be worse. This seems to be the place for opinions on Paradigm, maybe someone can give their opinion.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=854129

Thanks,

Ben

That whole set-up looks awsome!! great choice of gear, let us know what it looks/sounds like when it is all set up.. once again.. great choices!
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post #4604 of 30375 Old 06-03-2007, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by brickyardz View Post

Any Paradigm owners out there that have a Sony KDSR50 or 60XBR1 with matching SUGW12 stand? I just purchased a Paradigm V5 Monitor CC-290 which I am having a tough time trying to find a way to mount it. I would like to place it in the Sony stand,but it does not fit. Even when I remove the top shelf of the stand, the brace for the top shelf is in the way. Anyone have an idea how I can mount this? I am in an apartment and do not want to be putting holes in the walls,I am only here until April,and mounting it on top of the television is out. Thanks for the info,

Sounds like you might have to either put it on the floor or buy two small bookshelf speaker stands and rest it on them.. sorry if that isn't what you wanted to hear..
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post #4605 of 30375 Old 06-03-2007, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kal View Post

This isn't going to help your situation in the immediate future, but if your dealer indicating the C5's are special order only, then there's a problem with the entire business model that Paradigm is trying to run and you should complain to Paradigm.

Paradigm is very sticky about dealers selling 'outside their zone'. It's all very guarded. Each dealer has zones they're allowed to work in and others are NOT allowed to cross these boundries. Paradigm also therefore doesn't allow their products to be sold legally through the internet.

I'm not faulting this logic by Paradigm. It's actually good when it works as it ensures that you buy the right speaker for you by actually going to a knowledgeable dealer who is able to demo the speakers for you.

But if some dealers are refusing to carry stock because it's 'special order', this whole business model breaks down and people end up having to buy sight unseen (or unheard in this case). So it's exactly like buying through the internet ....

Call Paradigm. Tell them you want to listen to a C5 before purchase and ask them how that's supposed to work if the C5 is only 'special order' and dealers cannot keep them in stock. (They may tell you that it is not 'special order' only which would prove something about your dealer....)

The Signature line is not inexpensive - nobody should have to have these sorts of problems.

kal

You are one hundred percent right, if the dealer doesn't carry them then something sounds funny.. Any dealer should be able to carry a speaker line no matter what it is.. i would question where you buy your stuff.
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post #4606 of 30375 Old 06-03-2007, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by dave33ca View Post

You are one hundred percent right, if the dealer doesn't carry them then something sounds funny.. Any dealer should be able to carry a speaker line no matter what it is.. i would question where you buy your stuff.


You're kidding right? A Paradigm dealer should be required to carry every model of every one of their lines, in stock, all the time? Hell, even internet-based suppliers can't pull that one off, 100% of the time. B&M stores have enough of an overhead, they certainly don't need excess stock they may or may not be able to sell.

What a dealer should do is provide a decent return and trade-in policy, for those cases.
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post #4607 of 30375 Old 06-03-2007, 09:52 AM
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I think you are right Dave33ca. I am just going to have to buy a center channel speaker stand. Would much rather have it in the television stand than right out in front of the television
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post #4608 of 30375 Old 06-03-2007, 02:53 PM
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Anyone need a v.3 tweeter from my 40s beffore it goes on ebay ? I have 2 but one has a dented dome
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post #4609 of 30375 Old 06-03-2007, 04:20 PM
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My dealer doesn't stock Paradigms anymore, they replaced them with Energy. But they are still a auth dealer.

super dirty , super clean , pow
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post #4610 of 30375 Old 06-03-2007, 08:10 PM
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Just have a quick question. How do you have your center channel speakers mounted? I have the Paradigm V5 Monitor,the CC-290. It does not fit in the stand for my Sony XBR1. I dont want to have to put a speaker stand in front of my television. Thanks for the info.
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post #4611 of 30375 Old 06-03-2007, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brickyardz View Post

Just have a quick question. How do you have your center channel speakers mounted? I have the Paradigm V5 Monitor,the CC-290. It does not fit in the stand for my Sony XBR1. I dont want to have to put a speaker stand in front of my television. Thanks for the info.

I remember seeing this product on an XBR1 at CC.

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/OmniM...oductDetail.do

Don't know what other options are available...
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post #4612 of 30375 Old 06-04-2007, 10:05 AM
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I have Atoms V3 as my surrounds, Paradigm recommends the S30 speaker stands for them. I was thinking about getting a Sanus stand instead, anyone have Atoms on stands and can give a suggestion one way or another?

Thanks.

BB
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post #4613 of 30375 Old 06-04-2007, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbcline View Post

I have Atoms V3 as my surrounds, Paradigm recommends the S30 speaker stands for them. I was thinking about getting a Sanus stand instead, anyone have Atoms on stands and can give a suggestion one way or another?

Thanks.

BB

I used Sanus for my Atoms, and when I upgraded to Studio 20s, I still use the same Sanus stands (I even use Sanus for my Studio series center channel). Alot less expensive then what Paradigm recommends, and guess what -- speakers sit on them and wires attach fine. They are great, behold:



This is what I have for the Studios (and used for the Atoms)-- Sanus Natural Foundations (30 inch):

http://www.sanus.com/us/en/products/...layout/layout/

I have the 18 inch center channel Natural Foundation stand as well.
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post #4614 of 30375 Old 06-04-2007, 10:53 AM
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The Sanus NF stands are decent for a smaller speaker like the Atoms, but I don't think they're sturdy enough for larger or more robust speakers. I have a pair that I just dusted off over the weekend for my newly purchased Ascend Sierras and the Sierra (not much larger than the Atom, but significantly heavier) is too much speaker for the Sanus stand. Even the Studio 20s, in my opinion, are too much for the NF line by Sanus. I'd probably look at fillable stands instead, which is what I'll have to do if I keep the Sierras.

J.

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post #4615 of 30375 Old 06-04-2007, 11:06 AM
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Well, I just got back from my local A/V store and scored myself a fantastic deal for my almost complete Theater room!

I snaggged a pair of Montor 9 v.5's, a CC390 and a Seismic 10 subwoofer for the low price of $2400.00 + tax (I'm in Alberta, Canada) so the total was $2544.00. What a steal! They should be in by friday!!

I already got a pair of Paradigm AMS 300's in my rear wall providing rear surround duty, and a pair of AMS 150-30R guided soundfield in the ceiling for side surround channels.

Cost breakdown is as follows:

Monitor 9 - 750.00 $CDN
CC390 center - $500.00 $CDN
Seismic 10 Sub - 1150.00 $CDN
6% tax - 144.00 $CDN

I was initially going to go with the Monitor 7's but the 9's hand a more solid midrange IMHO, but were otherwise very similar.

My room is 15 X 40ish but the actual viewing area is 15 X 20ish, the side of the room is open to the staircase and bar area (Hence having to go with in ceiling speakers for side surround duty), I'll post pictures when complete. Just waiting on carpet and custom A/V cabinets

Now.....what to go with for a receiver......
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post #4616 of 30375 Old 06-04-2007, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonColeman View Post

The Sanus NF stands are decent for a smaller speaker like the Atoms, but I don't think they're sturdy enough for larger or more robust speakers. I have a pair that I just dusted off over the weekend for my newly purchased Ascend Sierras and the Sierra (not much larger than the Atom, but significantly heavier) is too much speaker for the Sanus stand. Even the Studio 20s, in my opinion, are too much for the NF line by Sanus. I'd probably look at fillable stands instead, which is what I'll have to do if I keep the Sierras.

J.

Been using the Sanus Natural Foundations with my Studio 20s for a long time now. No issues.
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post #4617 of 30375 Old 06-04-2007, 11:16 AM
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I'm not knocking the stands, I own 2 pairs of them, I'm just saying that I personally don't think they're sturdy or solid enough for a larger bookshelf speaker. Additionally, with a young child at home, I find the NF line way too top-heavy with a big speaker on them. That being said, I'm glad you've had no issues with yours.

J.

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post #4618 of 30375 Old 06-04-2007, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonColeman View Post

I'm not knocking the stands, I own 2 pairs of them, I'm just saying that I personally don't think they're sturdy or solid enough for a larger bookshelf speaker. Additionally, with a young child at home, I find the NF line way too top-heavy with a big speaker on them. That being said, I'm glad you've had no issues with yours.

J.

Thanks guys. I have a six month old that is starting to get on the move, I plan on having the Atoms on the stands but out of his way except for when I want them in the optimum spot for surround sound when we're watching a movie. I can't have them out in that spot all the time, sorta be in the way, at least on one side.

I wish I could post a pic of our family room on here, I could use some advice on speaker placement. The left side of the family room is the entrance in to the kitchen, about dead center of that entrance would be the best place for the left surround, so you see why I won't have the speaker on a stand out all the time.

Appreciate the advice given.

BB
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post #4619 of 30375 Old 06-04-2007, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by brickyardz View Post

Just have a quick question. How do you have your center channel speakers mounted? I have the Paradigm V5 Monitor,the CC-290. It does not fit in the stand for my Sony XBR1. I dont want to have to put a speaker stand in front of my television. Thanks for the info.

brickyardz, I have the Sony 60" XBR1, and have my CC290 mounted on the top using the Omnimount shown in Circuit City link that was provided in a previous post.
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post #4620 of 30375 Old 06-04-2007, 06:21 PM
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Nelson57 - I hope you don't run into the same problem with the Omnimount that I encountered. I have the JVC HD-61FN97 and mounted my CC-370 above it. After 3 months I began to notice some bowing of the screen. The height in the middle of the screen was 5/8 of an inch less than at the sides. Apparently the JVC isn't strong enough to hold the Omnimount and CC-370. You might want to keep an eye on it.

Pete
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