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post #24301 of 30957 Old 03-15-2012, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

Unless you're driving Studio 100s very loud, a sub will fill its void for lack of bass. I spent a few hours dialing in the crossover point of my 100s and concluded 60hz being the lowest they could go. then I began 2.0 music testing on very bass intensive music to come to the realization that 100s lack healthy bass unless driven hot with high amplification. Even studio 100s need a sub for moderate listening levels to fill their void.

That makes sense because of our ability to hear bass as I alluded to earlier. You're going to hear more bass at higher volumes regardless of what speaker you use.
It's the core of Audyssey Dynamic EQ actually, it sort of compensates for that anomily.
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post #24302 of 30957 Old 03-15-2012, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

Which is the point I was making, not all subs are created equal and one doesn't have to pay the name brand price to get blown away performance great recommendations btw!

Right, my IB sub was the most accurate and powerful I've ever heard, and it cost me all of $1100, and that was only because of the amp I chose to use. I could have done it for around $600.
People are building THT's and such for even less that are reported to be incredible.

Ultimately though, for music, no matter what you get, the trick is to get the bass right in the room. And the means anything below 250hz, not just what a sub puts into the mix.
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post #24303 of 30957 Old 03-15-2012, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Venomous View Post


Unless you're driving Studio 100s very loud, a sub will fill its void for lack of bass. I spent a few hours dialing in the crossover point of my 100s and concluded 60hz being the lowest they could go. then I began 2.0 music testing on very bass intensive music to come to the realization that 100s lack healthy bass unless driven hot with high amplification. Even studio 100s need a sub for moderate listening levels to fill their void.

Sub selection is some what of a science nowadays. You have your high end, mid end and low end to choose from. There's things like bass accuracy, volume, measurement of tightness or clean output, etc. you have sealed and ported designs to dig through. Then there's subs specifically designed for theater use and some made strictly for music. You also have subs made to do both.

Then comes cost, name recognition, Internet brands, size, etc. When you are working off a budget, it's important to spend the maximum on quality speakers. Second is a quality sub, then the left overs sort of go to the avr which can be upgraded later. Since speakers and subs generally have a long life in our systems, we tend to buy the best we can.

I went with dual HSU VTF15s. For $1700 it's hard to find a setup outputting this much bass and at its volume capability. Theres DYI options out there that will surpass anything you can buy as well. If I didn't have an opportunity to hear a HSU I don't think I would of purchased one.

It's kind of hard to consider digm subs for their price and performance compared to ID brand subs out there. Name recognition or system matching is more of a reason people keep to their brand. I'm more like a bang for buck type of guy. My subs may not be as pretty or less obtrusive due to their size, but they sure as hell spit out enough bass to impress

Thanks for that Venomous.

Now that I've upgraded my speakers to digms (took me a week to figure out what this word referred to) I'm thinking of upgrading the subwoofer. And since that's the current hot topic, I'll jump right in.

I have an 8 year old Def Tech ProSub 100 TL (250 watts RMS, 10" driver). I always thought it was decent but now that I'm listening critically I can tell its boomy. I'd like more punch and tight bass. In line with the budget I'm considering Emotive X-Ref 12 or SVS SB12-NSD. Movies are first priority, with music a new close second.

Would those subs sound like a night and day difference compared to what I have now? I'm hoping the answer is yes. My room is 16 x 12, and opens into a kitchen about the same size.

I can go up a little in price, but if the sound difference with either of these moderately priced subs would be significant to what i have now then I think I'd be happy. My current sub is the only one I've ever had so I'm really a novice regarding this. I know these subs aren't in the same league as whet you've been discussing, but maybe they'd blow the doors off of what I have now.
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post #24304 of 30957 Old 03-15-2012, 01:56 PM
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Does anyone know how much of a difference in sound between the studio 20 and the signature s2. Was thinking for a stereo application in a smaller room. Just wanted to know whether it's worth it or not and how much of a difference and what the benefits of buying a s2 for this purpose. Thanks
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post #24305 of 30957 Old 03-15-2012, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalani View Post

If you're looking for pure SPL power, take a look at the CraigSUBs from CHT:

http://www.chasehometheater.com/inde...id=53&TreeId=2

A pair of VS-18.1 subs put out an astonishing amount of power for a fraction of the cost of a Paradigm sub, even blow away the best offerings from SVS (for the money).

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...-2-review.html

I'm looking for both sound quality as well as SPL. I want clean clear tight punchy musical bass, but also want a sub capable of high SPL (more then what my PW 2200 can do at the least). But high SPL without the sound quality is useless to me. I don't want one without the other. If it sounds good, I want to crank it. If it sounds like sloppy, boomy slop, then I'd want to turn it off lmao. High SPL and the sound I'm looking for is the recipe for expensive subs. I'm sure the SUB 25 is loud enough, and I'm sure it sounds good enough, but if there's something that performs equally for less money, I'm 100% down. I want to look more into that SubM HP but the site is down. I'm looking for a spec sheet to learn more about it. I looked at the link someone provided here and I couldn't find what I was looking for. Just want some pics, spec sheet, then some reviews/tests and comparisons.
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post #24306 of 30957 Old 03-15-2012, 02:01 PM
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Kermit, I know you asked Venom, but I'm bored so I'll offer my opinion, which is is those are both excellent value subs, I'd personally lean to the SVS on spec. For a couple of hundred more you'd get a bit better accuracy and extension going to a Rythmik, which is where I'd personally go if I were buying today. And yes you'll get an appreciable benefit with any of them.
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post #24307 of 30957 Old 03-15-2012, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kermit26.2 View Post

Thanks for that Venomous.

Now that I've upgraded my speakers to digms (took me a week to figure out what this word referred to) I'm thinking of upgrading the subwoofer. And since that's the current hot topic, I'll jump right in.

I have an 8 year old Def Tech ProSub 100 TL (250 watts RMS, 10" driver). I always thought it was decent but now that I'm listening critically I can tell its boomy. I'd like more punch and tight bass. In line with the budget I'm considering Emotive X-Ref 12 or SVS SB12-NSD. Movies are first priority, with music a new close second.

Would those subs sound like a night and day difference compared to what I have now? I'm hoping the answer is yes. My room is 16 x 12, and opens into a kitchen about the same size.

I can go up a little in price, but if the sound difference with either of these moderately priced subs would be significant to what i have now then I think I'd be happy. My current sub is the only one I've ever had so I'm really a novice regarding this. I know these subs aren't in the same league as whet you've been discussing, but maybe they'd blow the doors off of what I have now.

I had the Emotive's and while great for most music, they lack something. Get a couple of Rythmic sealed subs. They are tight, clear, detailed and fill in the S8 (100's) very well.
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post #24308 of 30957 Old 03-15-2012, 02:25 PM
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Tough to beat 14hz extension with ruler flat FR;

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F15HP_specs.html

Want more SPL for movies? Get two.. still cheaper than one Sub25.

Nowhere near as pretty though.
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post #24309 of 30957 Old 03-15-2012, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kermit26.2 View Post

Thanks for that Venomous.

Now that I've upgraded my speakers to digms (took me a week to figure out what this word referred to) I'm thinking of upgrading the subwoofer. And since that's the current hot topic, I'll jump right in.

I have an 8 year old Def Tech ProSub 100 TL (250 watts RMS, 10" driver). I always thought it was decent but now that I'm listening critically I can tell its boomy. I'd like more punch and tight bass. In line with the budget I'm considering Emotive X-Ref 12 or SVS SB12-NSD. Movies are first priority, with music a new close second.

Would those subs sound like a night and day difference compared to what I have now? I'm hoping the answer is yes. My room is 16 x 12, and opens into a kitchen about the same size.

I can go up a little in price, but if the sound difference with either of these moderately priced subs would be significant to what i have now then I think I'd be happy. My current sub is the only one I've ever had so I'm really a novice regarding this. I know these subs aren't in the same league as whet you've been discussing, but maybe they'd blow the doors off of what I have now.

If buying today with the 50/50 theater/music duty, I would definitely go the route of rythmik. I had a budget and my hsu's were the perfect fit for what I was looking for. If there was one item I regret buying, it's my Yamaha. The Denon 4311 would of been a better fit for me. At least I ended up with paradigms and that was especially important having the best speakers for my listening taste.
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post #24310 of 30957 Old 03-15-2012, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John1400 View Post

Does anyone know how much of a difference in sound between the studio 20 and the signature s2. Was thinking for a stereo application in a smaller room. Just wanted to know whether it's worth it or not and how much of a difference and what the benefits of buying a s2 for this purpose. Thanks

Comes down to what type of music you listen to and listening to the beryllium tweeters sing. It's quite noticeable, but your wallet makes the end decision. If you don't plan on using a sub, I would lean toward the S2s.
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post #24311 of 30957 Old 03-15-2012, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Kermit, I know you asked Venom, but I'm bored so I'll offer my opinion, which is is those are both excellent value subs, I'd personally lean to the SVS on spec. For a couple of hundred more you'd get a bit better accuracy and extension going to a Rythmik, which is where I'd personally go if I were buying today. And yes you'll get an appreciable benefit with any of them.

I totally agree here. Rythmiks have a great reputation and offer stellar performance. I wouldn't hesitate buying a pair of them down the road.
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post #24312 of 30957 Old 03-15-2012, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John1400 View Post

Does anyone know how much of a difference in sound between the studio 20 and the signature s2. Was thinking for a stereo application in a smaller room. Just wanted to know whether it's worth it or not and how much of a difference and what the benefits of buying a s2 for this purpose. Thanks

In most cases I'd say it depends, but I'm of the opinion that what the Sigs offer with the Be tweeters on their own is worth the price difference.
In small room/nearfield listening where you position your speakers to sound headphone-like, the extra "air" and articulation of the Be tweeters might be even more desirable, depending on the quality of your supporting gear of course. (So I guess there is a "depends" after all lol! )
The newest 20's would be no slouch and are now closer to what the Sig v.1's used to be... so pretty damn good.
Even the difference between the Sig v.1's and Sig v.2/3's in the top end is a worthy step up IMO.

Oh, and of course you can get those tweets at a lower price point in the S1's. But I don't know what you'd give up in extension and imaging.. in your application it might not be much.


.
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post #24313 of 30957 Old 03-15-2012, 06:14 PM
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Thank guys for the advice, its just something I been thinking about. I'm afraid to go into the store and listen to the s2's as I already have quite a few of the studio's. Right now I have the 100's, 60's, 2 sets of 20's, 1 set of 10's and 1 set of surrounds a 690 and 2 sub 12's all v5 in rosenut. Don't want it to snowball into me switching completely to the sig's as I could not afford that. Just thought a set of s2's might be nice for a stereo setup. Anyway I might go have a listen but wanted to thank you guys for your advice as I have not heard the sig's. Thanks!!
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post #24314 of 30957 Old 03-15-2012, 07:31 PM
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You sound like you're not far from being the next star of "Hoarders"... the speaker episode... lol!

Stay away from the store or it'll be "Intervention" next...
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post #24315 of 30957 Old 03-15-2012, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John1400 View Post

Thank guys for the advice, its just something I been thinking about. I'm afraid to go into the store and listen to the s2's as I already have quite a few of the studio's. Right now I have the 100's, 60's, 2 sets of 20's, 1 set of 10's and 1 set of surrounds a 690 and 2 sub 12's all v5 in rosenut. Don't want it to snowball into me switching completely to the sig's as I could not afford that. Just thought a set of s2's might be nice for a stereo setup. Anyway I might go have a listen but wanted to thank you guys for your advice as I have not heard the sig's. Thanks!!

I thought I just wanted a new front 3.......now 4 adp390s later, and I have a brand new 7.1 setup. It's a slippery slope. You will want the better speakers in the system you listen to the most. If that the surround setup, don't listen until you can afford them all (less resale of your v5 studios).
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post #24316 of 30957 Old 03-15-2012, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

In most cases I'd say it depends, but I'm of the opinion that what the Sigs offer with the Be tweeters on their own is worth the price difference.
In small room/nearfield listening where you position your speakers to sound headphone-like, the extra "air" and articulation of the Be tweeters might be even more desirable, depending on the quality of your supporting gear of course. (So I guess there is a "depends" after all lol! )
The newest 20's would be no slouch and are now closer to what the Sig v.1's used to be... so pretty damn good.
Even the difference between the Sig v.1's and Sig v.2/3's in the top end is a worthy step up IMO.

Oh, and of course you can get those tweets at a lower price point in the S1's. But I don't know what you'd give up in extension and imaging.. in your application it might not be much.


.

Compared my s20s to s10s and there's not a whole lot of difference. So S1s may just serve their purpose for his 2.0 setup.
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post #24317 of 30957 Old 03-15-2012, 08:26 PM
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As far as the Arcam goes, I love it, combined with the 60s I hear so much detail and so much soundstage that I can just sit back and get lost in the music, beauty.


Yes, don't you love it! Recently I haven't had time, or the house to myself long enough to enjoy this. The last time I did, I had all the lights out so it was pitch black, and listened to the Pink Floyd album "The Wall," and got completely sucked in. I felt like I was at a demonic broadway play towards the end. Good sound and good music is a portal where you can go on a journey to other worlds. I know, I sound corny as hell lmao.

That's why I want the cleanest, clearest sound possible, and that's why I was willing to dish out the 4 grand for the SUB 25. I didn't know/think a cheaper sub could perform the same.
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post #24318 of 30957 Old 03-15-2012, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post

I'm looking for both sound quality as well as SPL. I want clean clear tight punchy musical bass, but also want a sub capable of high SPL (more then what my PW 2200 can do at the least). But high SPL without the sound quality is useless to me. I don't want one without the other. If it sounds good, I want to crank it. If it sounds like sloppy, boomy slop, then I'd want to turn it off lmao. High SPL and the sound I'm looking for is the recipe for expensive subs. I'm sure the SUB 25 is loud enough, and I'm sure it sounds good enough, but if there's something that performs equally for less money, I'm 100% down. I want to look more into that SubM HP but the site is down. I'm looking for a spec sheet to learn more about it. I looked at the link someone provided here and I couldn't find what I was looking for. Just want some pics, spec sheet, then some reviews/tests and comparisons.

Check the review I linked. It should answer any questions you might have about the CraigSUBs.

Plenty musical. Most subs can be both musical AND powerful, but only if you feed them an obscene amount of power. Which is what the amp for the CraigSUBs does.

Not trying to talk you out of Paradigm (especially in this thread), but you did seem to be entertaining alternatives...
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post #24319 of 30957 Old 03-15-2012, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kermit26.2 View Post

Thanks for that Venomous.

Now that I've upgraded my speakers to digms (took me a week to figure out what this word referred to) I'm thinking of upgrading the subwoofer. And since that's the current hot topic, I'll jump right in.

I have an 8 year old Def Tech ProSub 100 TL (250 watts RMS, 10" driver). I always thought it was decent but now that I'm listening critically I can tell its boomy. I'd like more punch and tight bass. In line with the budget I'm considering Emotive X-Ref 12 or SVS SB12-NSD. Movies are first priority, with music a new close second.

Would those subs sound like a night and day difference compared to what I have now? I'm hoping the answer is yes. My room is 16 x 12, and opens into a kitchen about the same size.

I can go up a little in price, but if the sound difference with either of these moderately priced subs would be significant to what i have now then I think I'd be happy. My current sub is the only one I've ever had so I'm really a novice regarding this. I know these subs aren't in the same league as whet you've been discussing, but maybe they'd blow the doors off of what I have now.

Yes. Night and day. And I'd pass on the Emo... definitely go with the SVS PB12-NSD, between those two.
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post #24320 of 30957 Old 03-16-2012, 04:49 AM
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Thank you gents for the confirmation that the difference will be especially noticeable, and for the heads-up on the Rythmiks. I had never hear of them and now they are at the top of my short list, with only the SVS still remaining.

Armed with this new knowledge I plunged once more unto the breach, and mentioned to the wife that the only thing lacking in our system was a top-shelf subwoofer. I explained how movies and music would be significantly enhanced with the addition of a Paradigm Sub-25. When she balked at the price I told her that fortunately Rythmics makes a sub at a fraction of the cost that offers much of the performance.

Tactics, tactics, tactics.

The negotiations have begun. I fear the final cost will be more than just the price of a subwoofer.
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post #24321 of 30957 Old 03-16-2012, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalani View Post

Check the review I linked. It should answer any questions you might have about the CraigSUBs.

Plenty musical. Most subs can be both musical AND powerful, but only if you feed them an obscene amount of power. Which is what the amp for the CraigSUBs does.

Not trying to talk you out of Paradigm (especially in this thread), but you did seem to be entertaining alternatives...

Just read everything through fully. I like the idea of passive. Would I be able to power these puppies with a crown XTi 4000? lol

I wish there was a way to audition/hear one of these subs before making a purchase. I'm interested in the SubM HP also, but you can't even order them since the website is down. If I like the way the SubM HP's sound, and they are half the price of the SUB 25, I'll take 2 lol. I'm sure SPL wouldn't be a problem with 2 of those. Does anybody know what the in room extension is on the SubM HP? I can't wait for seaton's website to be back up so I can look at their spec sheet
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post #24322 of 30957 Old 03-16-2012, 06:21 AM
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Just read everything through fully. I like the idea of passive. Would I be able to power these puppies with a crown XTi 4000? lol

I wish there was a way to audition/hear one of these subs before making a purchase. I'm interested in the SubM HP also, but you can't even order them since the website is down. If I like the way the SubM HP's sound, and they are half the price of the SUB 25, I'll take 2 lol. I'm sure SPL wouldn't be a problem with 2 of those. Does anybody know what the in room extension is on the SubM HP? I can't wait for seaton's website to be back up so I can look at their spec sheet

Go to the forum I linked yesterday. All the info is there, as well as contact info for the owner/designer. He can point you in the direction of a demo, send you data sheets for the 2012 model, and sell you an item.

I look forward to hearing everyone considering new subs results. All this talk is making me curious...... Epik Empire-. Not quite as sexy lacking big motors, and a big amp, but I like the idea of unit, surface area, and fast response. Not to mention it can get down below 15hz. Oh and it's only $800. Current sub, meet craigslist ; )
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post #24323 of 30957 Old 03-16-2012, 07:47 AM
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Go to the forum I linked yesterday. All the info is there, as well as contact info for the owner/designer. He can point you in the direction of a demo, send you data sheets for the 2012 model, and sell you an item.

I look forward to hearing everyone considering new subs results. All this talk is making me curious...... Epik Empire-. Not quite as sexy lacking big motors, and a big amp, but I like the idea of unit, surface area, and fast response. Not to mention it can get down below 15hz. Oh and it's only $800. Current sub, meet craigslist ; )

Just spent about an hour reading the seaton forums. I didn't find too much spec wise on the SubM HP except is has a 2400 watt amplifier, but I did read a bunch on a mythical Submersive XL which is supposed to have dual 18" drivers in a sealed enclosure and a 6000 watt amp. I don't think it exists yet, but the forum topic started talking about it in 2007. Now in 2012, it still doesn't exist. I wonder if this colossal behemoth will ever be created lol
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post #24324 of 30957 Old 03-16-2012, 08:10 AM
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I've been looking around for a smallish pair of bookshelf speakers for a bedroom system.

Originally considering something like the Energy RC-Mini or the Paradigm Micro Monitor.

But, I think I have enough space to step up to the Paradigm Atom, and these would likely be more versatile for me in the long run.


So, I might be able to pick up a nice pair of used V4 Atoms; or my local dealer has a few pairs of V6s left which they are clearing out.

What sonic difference would there be between the 2 versions, if any?

My guess is that the V6s would likely cost me double (or slightly more) what I can get the used V4s for. Obviously the V6s would have full warranty - but sonically, is the extra price worth it?

Boston Acoustics Classic series L/C/R + front presence; Fluance XLBP Bipole surrounds; PSA XS15se
Yamaha RX-A3040; Emotiva XPA-3
Oppo BDP-103D
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post #24325 of 30957 Old 03-16-2012, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kermit26.2 View Post

When she balked at the price I told her that fortunately Rythmics makes a sub at a fraction of the cost that offers much of the performance.

Tactics, tactics, tactics.

The negotiations have begun. I fear the final cost will be more than just the price of a subwoofer.

See... who say's men only think with one thing!

This is WAF correction at it's finest lol!

One thing for sure, there aren't many women that like BIG subs, so there's a serious market for small & powerful subs, and no doubt for subs that look as good as the Sub25.
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post #24326 of 30957 Old 03-16-2012, 12:34 PM
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Okay, now I've been doing a whole bunch of reading on the "Terraform XL." Are these things for sale yet? Does anybody have them or have heard them? I'm very curious about them but everything I've been reading is indicative that they don't exist yet.
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post #24327 of 30957 Old 03-16-2012, 01:18 PM
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Just build an IB sub and be done with it!

http://ibsubwoofers.proboards.com/index.cgi
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post #24328 of 30957 Old 03-16-2012, 04:30 PM
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Just unboxed the Monitor 11 V6 (Wenge). They sound incredible (especially for $800 with warranty); however, the cabinet finish leaves something to be desired. The wenge looks like early 90's particle board covered in wallpaper quality waynes coating. My outgoing Performance series Phantom's have a higher quality finish (black ash). Oh well, I didn't buy them for looking at, bought them to listen to, and what an incredible improvement. They sound incredible in my large room. I deactivated the remaining speakers, and will run 2.0/2.1 until the matching speakers arrive on Monday/Tuesday.

Here's a couple pics. Will take better care (and clean up) when the rest of the speakers arrive.


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post #24329 of 30957 Old 03-16-2012, 04:44 PM
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They are lookin' good to me lol. The v6's are the monitors with the really high efficiency right?


Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Just build an IB sub and be done with it!

http://ibsubwoofers.proboards.com/index.cgi

I'm not that skilled yet to build anything I would use in my main theater room lol.
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post #24330 of 30957 Old 03-16-2012, 05:42 PM
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They don't seem to look bad at all.myour wood floors took me back to my last house, which btw, i don't miss th acoustic nightmare! Lol
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