Stereophile review of the Wilson Audio MAXX2 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub
Agreed. Unfortunately, there has been a trend lately to grade speakers from a graph of the FR only. One of the WORST speakers I ever heard was the Energy C-9. Its graph is quite flat across its frequency range, but music was so totally flat and lifeless that I found them to be unlistenable.

The same store had Totem Hawks, which sounded wonderful. I even got the store owner angry when I asked if the Energies were wired out of phase.

Back to the review - The MAXX2's seem to be a great speaker. I hope to see some of those lower prices in the near future like other Wilsons have had in the past.
Craig illustrates the point perfectly. Dave and Vince obviously know the sound of live music and also clearly know how to go that extra few percent that takes a given speaker from merely good hifi to a transcendant musical experience. Meaning, when you know how to dial in a design that already "gets along with itself" you may and often do reach a place where the speaker just stops sounding like a speaker and transports you away.

That's a vanishing art in a world of ubiquitious PC modelling and analysis, but I propose that only when somebody can tell us which of the ten plots on a monitor sounds that very special way, then there'll be no need to voice by ear. Meanwhile, I personally haven't found anything that does that yet except the ear.

In my opinion, FR and other foundational measurements are absolutely necessary to evaluate the inherent success of any given driver or early system design. But the illusion of actual music -- what I think Keith Yates calls the immersive experience and the suspension of disbelief -- comes from the experience and insight of masters like these, not a microphone.

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post #92 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 01:39 PM
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I fear that golden ears (no, I don't believe much in them) will be replaced by "golden eyes".

Yes measurements and scientific analysis are VERY important and speaker designers SHOULD BE (AND USUALLY ARE) using all kinds of measurements ...some, in fact, may be taking certain typical room designs and characteristics, as well as placement scenarios into account when designing with regards to such things as dispersion, FR, spectral decay , phase, time alignment, etc........but let not the science cloud our ears , so do the listening first and don't doubt your ears...ok. you can doubt them, just enjoy them.....
Hahaha, we have almost exactly opposite opinions. Though I would not say Golden eyes, maybe more like golden mics.

Look at the state of audio today, its plagued with voodoo, snake oil, and misconceptions.

The sooner the (more often then not) golden ears are out fo the equation and are replaced by cold, hard facts, the better this hobby will be. The graphs now do give us a fairly good idea of the performances of a product. The day it can give us an absolute, and we're able to exactly quantify and measure what makes a good piece of hifi equipment, maybe even assign a grade, we'll be far better off then we're now...

A funny story, a salesman acting like he knows it all, asks me what of gear I have, then proceeds to tell me: "oh yeah thats a little bit heavy in the mid bass" (or something akin), I ask him, well, what frequency are you talking about exactly? "Oh I don't know I don' treally use frequencies", mmmmmmmkay....

Having a way to exactly quantify hifhi gear performance would be a great thing. Then all the self proclaimed experts who can supposedly tell the difference between a cd and a burned cd copy, or ground touching cables, speaker wire, etc.. won't have ground to stand on... And it will be much easierto find what you're looking for and getting exact information..

May not happen for quite a while, but we're allowed to dream :)
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post #93 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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From my opening post :

Quote:
For those who wonder if one can make a qualitative analysis of a loudspeaker from the FR graph, this is must reading :
I stand by this - I have heard wonderful speakers (the Legacy Focus) which miss "spec" in the FR graph as measured, and others which "met spec" that were also wonderful.

I have also heard TERRIBLE speakers which measure well within spec.

Here is what I posted regarding how a review should be considered by the reader :

Quote:
When reading a review, one will learn 99 % of the merits of the speakers by reading what the reviewer heard, and from that alone. Read the text, THEN the graphs, then the text again.

That should give one the info required to see if the speaker warrants an audition, whether in a store for a B&M model, or in home for an internet direct model.
I think the 99% was an overstatement. More like 80%. Should someone BUY a speaker based on a review ? No.

But - Is a review enough information for someone to audition a speaker ?

I think so. Joel disagrees.
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post #94 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub
But - Is a review enough information for someone to audition a speaker ? I think so. Joel disagrees.
Of course I do. If you auditioned every speaker that got a glowing review, you'd spend all year doing it. When was the last time you saw a speaker get less than a good review? It's all good reviews, as far as the eye can see. Even obviously bad stuff still gets a good review. "Of all the speakers I've listened to, this certainly is one" :)

So, you look at the measurements, see if there's *anything* that validates the review, do some homework on the internet, talk to some people, narrow it down a little, and *then* go on a quest. The design of the speaker is more useful for determining whether a speaker will be right for your ears, music, room, priorities than a review will be, if you know a little about it.

IOW, the review is just a small piece of the puzzle, more for what you can glean from it than the praise that will be predictably hurled at the speaker. But the measurements will tell you about as much as the review because you can just guess what it says, whereas the measurements could be good or bad or a mixture of both. At least the outcome isn't predetermined.

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post #95 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandarf
Hahaha, we have almost exactly opposite opinions. Though I would not say Golden eyes, maybe more like golden mics.

Look at the state of audio today, its plagued with voodoo, snake oil, and misconceptions.
How about "Golden Science" ;)

God forbid science gets involved - mass hysteria, dogs and cats sleeping together........

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post #96 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Of course I do. If you auditioned every speaker that got a glowing review, you'd spend all year doing it.
Joel, My apologies, I thought you would understand one would audition speakers in one's price category and that reviews could help steer an audition, rather than taking every publication and trying to listen to each and every speaker tested.

I will try to be more specific about this in the future.
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post #97 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Here are the Totem Rainmakers :

Specs :
Quote:
Frequency response: 42Hz–20kHz, ±3dB.
Graph :

http://stereophile.com/images/archivesart/Torfig4.jpg
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post #98 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 02:21 PM
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I remember reading somewhere years ago that part of the problem we have with reproduced sound is that the two ends of the process (microphones and loudspeakers) are so bad relative to what we are able to do with the electronics part. All of the FR measurements of loudspeakers I have ever seen are quite ragged compared to what we see in preamps or amps. I wonder what a speaker (or a microphone) that could measure flat to + or - .1 or .05 of a db from 20hz to 20khz would sound like? As far as I know no such device exists or has ever been built. I know there are other measurements, most of which have been cited here, but again the measurements for loudspeakers (and, I suspect, microphones which are sort of "inverted loudspeakers") in these various areas are quite "ragged" as respects some of the measurements we see with electronics for things like square waves, jitter, etc. All speakers seem to measure badly, some moreso than others, at least in comparison to amps, preamps, processors and the like. The only other component that I know of that tends to measure somewhat badly are phono cartridges and again we are talking about an electromechanical transducer. Cartridges are probably irrelevant to a large part of the readership of this forum.

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post #99 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 02:25 PM
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Craig,

Here's my point. Pick any price category. Read the review. It's positive. Maybe you can read through the lines and figure out what's up, but probably not. Maybe you can find a problem that rules something out, but not likely unless you look at the measurements. Is it any surprise that a $45K speaker got a glowing review in Stereophile? You might as well say "if it's in my price range, I might as well listen" because there's no thumbs up/thumbs down in reviewing any more. It's just thumbs up or thumbs up. That's my point more than anything. Maybe you like sealed and the reviewer mentions that it's ported. Okay, that could be helpful, so I'm not saying a review *isn't* helpful, but the subjective part of it typically isn't. At least a car magazine will say "yep, this car really blows" or a motorcyle magazine will have three writers give three different views on 5 different bikes and you can say "ah, I identify with this guy, so I'm going to focus on his pick first". Not in audio. One guy. One opinion. Very positive. Lots of "wine tasting" words. At least a measurement gives you something, in theory.

Of course, that's problematic too because some magazines aren't very good at measurements as discussed in another thread. All in all, you'd be better off going to all your local stores and saying "this is my price range and my personal preferences, what do you have?" It would be twice as fast as reading reviews and a lot more enjoyable.

John
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post #100 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 02:29 PM
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With selecting which speakers to audition, perhaps one of the industry's failings is that it places little emphasis on class. That is, when we look over a Corvette, we know more or less what to expect. Likewise a Camry, a Tahoe, a Chrysler 300 etc. There are intuitively defined classes that precede our final selection process. Once in class, we do our research, take our test drives, and start picking out options.

The speaker industry does surprisingly little of this. Instead, relatively novice buyers look mostly at price and style, more or less in that order. From there they try their best to select a speaker based on a combination of what they've read, what they're told during the audition or online by the vendor, and what they think constitutes a frame of aural reference. Through all of this very little attention is paid to the basics: What is this thing actually supposed to do?

A speaker might best be preliminarily defined instead by it's "acoustic horsepower". Loosely defined, this is a combination of driver swept area and total internal enclosure volume. Add to this the total thermal capacity of the voice coils and we have a useful snapshot -- albeit still a subjective one -- of what approximate performance class the speaker occupies; whether it's a sports ute or a sports car. These factors describe the basic operational characteristics of the design: Sensitivity, bandwidth, distortion, and maximum output.

Sadly, this isn't always how the selection process happens. All too often we casually interchange speakers that differ by hundreds of percent in these most critical areas.

At TAI, we suggest that these easily found parameters start the selection process and we've found that they do indeed help a lot of buyers make informed evaluations of their needs before delving into the speaker jungle.

This is a bit off-topic but I think still addresses the potential confusion of selecting speakers for audition or trial.

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post #101 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub
Here are the Totem Rainmakers :
I bet they're catchy sounding with a nice cult following.

John
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post #102 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 02:49 PM
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Some magazines (like some of the Brit's stuff) can call a spade a spade, but rarely in this country.....

Quote:
so I'm not saying a review *isn't* helpful, but the subjective part of it typically isn't.
I can glean a fair bit from the subjective analysis of some reviewers, but , just like with a movie reviewer, you have to have learned from some practical experiance, whether or not you share similar tastes and opinions...subjective reviews aren't much good in a vacuum because you don't have a frame of referance. Listening and comparative auditioning gives a frame of referance. I also believe that the plots on a graph and measurements and other objective data must be inserted into our personal perceptions to be able to assimilate how that measurement is percived (sounds to) by us. What is the measurement taht sounds "bright" to one but is that the same that sounds "detailed" to another?

Quote:
All in all, you'd be better off going to all your local stores and saying "this is my price range and my personal preferences, what do you have?" It would be twice as fast as reading reviews and a lot more enjoyable
:)

Quote:
The sooner the (more often then not) golden ears are out fo the equation and are replaced by cold, hard facts, the better this hobby will be. The graphs now do give us a fairly good idea of the performances of a product. The day it can give us an absolute, and we're able to exactly quantify and measure what makes a good piece of hifi equipment, maybe even assign a grade, we'll be far better off then we're now...

Having a way to exactly quantify hifhi gear performance would be a great thing. Then all the self proclaimed experts who can supposedly tell the difference between a cd and a burned cd copy, or ground touching cables, speaker wire, etc.. won't have ground to stand on... And it will be much easierto find what you're looking for and getting exact information..

May not happen for quite a while, but we're allowed to dream
Your likely to be dreaming for quite some time as we try to discover what we need to measure for and how.

Quote:
1. If a speaker measures badly, it doesn't matter if it sounds good.

2. If a speaker sounds bad, it doesn't matter if it measures well.
1.) If a speaker sounds good, it's nice if it measures well.

2.)If a speaker sounds good, it shouldn't matter that it measures badly.

Seeking a speaker recomendation? Compare for yourself or be swayed by others who hear differantly, or by marketing, or just save time and get the cheapest , nicest looking, or smallest.
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post #103 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane
With selecting which speakers to audition, perhaps one of the industry's failings is that it places little emphasis on class. That is, when we look over a Corvette, we know more or less what to expect. Likewise a Camry, a Tahoe, a Chrysler 300 etc. There are intuitively defined classes that precede our final selection process. Once in class, we do our research, take our test drives, and start picking out options.

The speaker industry does surprisingly little of this. Instead, relatively novice buyers look mostly at price and style, more or less in that order. From there they try their best to select a speaker based on a combination of what they've read, what they're told during the audition or online by the vendor, and what they think constitutes a frame of aural reference. Through all of this very little attention is paid to the basics: What is this thing actually supposed to do?

A speaker might best be preliminarily defined instead by it's "acoustic horsepower". Loosely defined, this is a combination of driver swept area and total internal enclosure volume. Add to this the total thermal capacity of the voice coils and we have a useful snapshot -- albeit still a subjective one -- of what approximate performance class the speaker occupies; whether it's a sports ute or a sports car. These factors describe the basic operational characteristics of the design: Sensitivity, bandwidth, distortion, and maximum output.

Sadly, this isn't always how the selection process happens. All too often we casually interchange speakers that differ by hundreds of percent in these most critical areas.

At TAI, we suggest that these easily found parameters start the selection process and we've found that they do indeed help a lot of buyers make informed evaluations of their needs before delving into the speaker jungle.

This is a bit off-topic but I think still addresses the potential confusion of selecting speakers for audition or trial.
Jon - It is good to see you posting again. As is your usual style, well said.
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post #104 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Of course, that's problematic too because some magazines aren't very good at measurements as discussed in another thread. All in all, you'd be better off going to all your local stores and saying "this is my price range and my personal preferences, what do you have?" It would be twice as fast as reading reviews and a lot more enjoyable.
I see - This way we can get the totally objective salesman telling us what we are hearing... :D
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post #105 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 02:59 PM
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Heard The Totem Rainmakers at the FSI show, very short audition, didn't sound half bad. :)

Can't wait to read the review, at the bottom of the measurements:

Quote:
As always from Totem, the Rainmaker's measured performance reveals some excellent speaker engineering.
And other quotes from the article (reading now)

Quote:
I first grabbed Thelonious Monk's We See (Prestige 7245), and succumbed to the rich midrange of Monk's piano and the delicate transients of his solo articulations. Then I spun a Columbia "six-eye" of Miles Davis' In Person at the Blackhawk (Columbia CS 8469), and was transfixed by Davis' phrasing, a delicate blend of spitty and blatty brashness combined with liquid sweetness.
Quote:
Next I grabbed Dizzy Gillespie's Dizzy In Greece (Verve MGV-8017), and was impressed by how the Totems blurted out the brass tuttis with the forcefulness of much larger speakers but without harshness or strain, and also rendered the delicate "drop two," five-voice lower-midrange sax blend like silky butter.
Quote:
At every one of our Home Entertainment shows, I'm on a quest. I seek out the one pair of affordable speakers that impresses me to the point that I must have it in my house for review. At HE2004 East, in New York last May, that speaker was the Totem Rainmaker. At $950/pair, the Rainmaker was producing one the most realistic and enticing sounds at the New York Hilton. (Why is it that the trend at our HE shows seems increasingly to be that the best sound tends to come from rooms with affordable gear?)
Quote:
One of the reasons I was distracted and hooked by the sounds of those old LPs from All Jazz Records was the way in which the Rainmaker rendered the lower midrange: with extraordinary detail, transparency, and lack of coloration.
Man, looks like a clear winner to me so far! :D

Quote:
They sounded incredibly lifelike through the Totem. Then, out of nowhere, full-throated trombone tuttis break the mood at a volume level that would strain large floorstanding speakers. Through the Rainmaker I heard the bite, the burnished bells, the full level of dynamic rush, without a hint of strain.
Quote:
The detail resolution in the midrange and high frequencies, as well as the lightning-fast articulation of transients at all dynamic levels, made the Totem an ideal companion for classical percussion recordings. With another Andriessen work, De Tijd (CD, Nonesuch 79291-2), all manner of percussive accents popped out of thin air on a wide, deep soundstage with perfect transient reproduction.
Quote:
The Rainmaker's mid- and upper-bass reproduction was impressive.
Woa heh, I think I'll stop quoting, I don't think it could be any more positive than that! :eek:
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post #106 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall
I bet they're catchy sounding with a nice cult following.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandarf
Man, looks like a clear winner to me so far!
Looks like Grandarf just took the Grape Kool-Aid ... :p
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post #107 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 03:03 PM
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"I can only suspect that the floor bounce or other issues causes me to not like them so much" Interesting reference to floor bounce. Who measures that?
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post #108 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randybes
"I can only suspect that the floor bounce or other issues causes me to not like them so much" Interesting reference to floor bounce. Who measures that?
Rosie O'Donnell at closing time in the bar ? :D
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post #109 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub
Rosie O'Donnell at closing time in the bar ? :D

Hey that is funny:) Reminds me of a great line from one of John Hiatts songs. "I'm gone to get up off this bar stool as soon as I can figure it out"
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post #110 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 03:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub
Here are the Totem Rainmakers :

Specs :

Graph :

http://stereophile.com/images/archivesart/Torfig4.jpg

A TEXTBOOK example of a FR that will sound extremely musical. Most of the Proacs have the same curve.
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post #111 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub
I see - This way we can get the totally objective salesman telling us what we are hearing... :D
Or you could just listen for yourself. Still, I'd rather hear a saleman tell me "this speaker is a little on the warmer side relative to some of our other speakers, see if you like it" than have to read all the stuff Grandarf quoted. If a salesman started talking to me like a reviewer writes, I think I'd walk out.

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post #112 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 03:21 PM
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How in the world can you establish that such a frequency response is "textbook" and would sound "extremely musical"?

If the recording is accurate, the only thing you are doing is playing certain frequencies louder than the levels at which they were recorded. For example, if a certain bass note or instrument naturally sounds louder than other notes or instruments, that should be included in the recording - shouldn't it? So if you play it back with added distortion aren't you just making the reproduction of the sound inaccurate?

Why does distorting certain frequencies by elevating their respective decibel levels make the sound reproduction more "musical"?

What you're basically saying is that an inaccurate reproduction of the recorded material makes it more "musical." Which, of course, opens up pandora's box as to what frequency distortion each individual subjectively believes creates a more "musical" sound.

By the way, can you let me know what textbooks discuss the right levels of frequency distortion to make a speaker sound "musical"?

P.S. Nice new moniker.
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post #113 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 04:04 PM
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But again, to go back to the whole point of this discussion, FR graphs, what conclusion can we take from the Rainmaker review vs graphs?

Its fairly simple. Usually, graphs do not lie. Looking at the review vs measurements, no matter how you can add anything below the graphs, "As always from Totem, the Rainmaker's measured performance reveals some excellent speaker engineering.", or no matter how you say that its the most realistic reproduction of a live performance ever to grace the world, you can't say that the monitor is a very accurate loudspeaker because of the measurements.

The v type FR will actually sound a lot better to some people than a flat FR. Does that mean its better? No, its less accurate.

The Rainmaker was another great example of review vs measurements. At one point the reviewer hinted that he heard something strange:

Quote:
In the lower-midbass region, however, the Totem's bass took on a warmish quality. The lower registers of Jerome Harris' bass on "The Mooche," from Editor's Choice (CD, Stereophile STPH016-2), was a bit rounder than I've heard through other speakers.
Quote:
However, on certain recordings of female vocals that have a slightly forward and highly processed quality, such as Aimee Mann's Bachelor No.2, or The Last Remains of the Dodo (CD, Super Ego SE 002), or Jonatha Brooke's Steady Pull (CD, Bad Dog BDR-60801-2), the vocals tended to take on a slightly nasal quality, though only in the singers' upper registers. I'd be curious to see if JA's measurements uncover any artifact that can explain this effect.
But when you read it, warmish quality, vocals tended to take on a slightly nasal quality (nasal quality?! wtf!), it doesn't quite have the same impact at looking directly at the FR...


Does anyone have the details of how they take the measurements? The Rainmaker is like +/- 5dB :eek:

One aspect I find strange (and I'm not backtracking from the value of measurements or anything), is that they just put a mic next to the rear port and add the curves with the woofer and tweeter.. (also how do they measure tweeter and woofer seperately?!)
:confused:
Anyhow, my point is, the sound you hear from the rear port will invariably differ depending on the placement of the speakers inroom! I mean, its not directly radiating sound towards the listener like a usual driver, so its weird to include it as a constant in the FR graph..

If anyone bothers to look for my past posts about Totem speakers (I owned Arros and now own Sttafs), one of my almost constant advise/rant is that they do need to be positionned properly in a room to sound their best...

By pulling them away from the backwall, you will reduce the bass output at the listening position, closer to rear wall, increase it. My Arros could both sound bass anemic or overly bassy depending on their location...

Even the high frequencies, I would love one time to test my assertion, but I think can be tweaked with toe in.. Having the speakers facing directly in your direction vs aiming a few degrees on the side should change the perceived amount of highs..

So to quote myself from page1:
Quote:
But then to open another can of worms, what you hear inroom is never only the speakers, room is a huge factor
What you hear in your room might be nothing like FR graphs make it out to be.. (for better or worse...) Rear port, placement, room gains/nulls, etc..

In another thread , someone asked me how I like my Sttafs, this might sound funny, but since I've got them, they've kept moving around, and every new placement yields a new 'sound', even listening position, move in from 2 feet, and WHAM, bass totally changes. I think I need bass traps or something.. (hard to say exactly without mic to test..). Bah rambling.. But the point: I'm not so sure if I'd be really describing the Sttafs, or, my room AND the Sttafs!

Its just the tricky part that everyone seem to overlook. Room interaction. In the end, it makes a huge difference...

It makes sens that graphs don't take room into the equations, but what you will hear in room will be drastically different from the FR graphs... I wonder if, like Totem, a speaker can actually sound better in room than measured :confused: Or if you prefer: Would/could a FR graph from a mic in room actually yield better results than the usual 1 meter and add port method?


Oh, I'm not surprised that the Rainmakers aren't ruler flat like say Ascend, I remember reading that, Vince Bruzzese, owner of Totem, basically looks for a particular kind of sound, ****, can't find the article... Anyhow, said something along the lines that unlike many, he doesn't design speakers "for measurements", he instead designs mostly using his ears, to get the sound he seeks.. which if I remember correctly, is somewhat between a electrostatic and conventional dynamic speaker... (He basically started the company to fill the void in the loudspeaker he was seeking).
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post #114 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 04:29 PM
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Here's one thing in some speakers' defense. I you build a speaker that is for a bigger room, you will want to build in more bass. Otherwise, it will sound lean. What's interesting is that most reviewers simply don't have the room to review anything over about $10K. Certainly anything big. Those Maxx speakers probably need a room that's 20'x30' to sound really good, but I bet "Mikey" didn't have it in a room anything like that.

As for the Totem's signature, heck, it saves you the cost of an equalizer, I suppose. "Musical"?!? If "musical" = "colored", I suppose. I prefer to let the CD speak for itself (unless it is unable to do so, in which case, I listen in my car).

John
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Grandarf - For your reading pleasure...

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Originally Posted by grandarf
One aspect I find strange (and I'm not backtracking from the value of measurements or anything), is that they just put a mic next to the rear port and add the curves with the woofer and tweeter.. (also how do they measure tweeter and woofer seperately?!)

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From left to right, fig.3 shows the individual outputs of the Rainmaker's port, woofer, and tweeter. The port response peaks between 30 and 60Hz, a little too low in frequency and level to extend the woofer's response by much. However, this tuning does boost the woofer's output in the upper bass (some of the peak between 100 and 200Hz in the woofer's response in fig.3 will be due to the nearfield measurement technique, but the rest is real), resulting in the impression that the speaker has better bass extension than might be expected from its size. This is the old "LS3/5a" trick, which worked so well for the BBC's classic small speaker design
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Fig.3 Totem Rainmaker, acoustic crossover on tweeter axis at 50", corrected for microphone response, with the nearfield woofer and port responses plotted below 350Hz and 1kHz, respectively
http://stereophile.com/images/archivesart/Torfig3.jpg
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post #116 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 05:23 PM
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and the point is?

I asked two questions in the part you quoted. 1) How is it accurate to include the rear port measurement in FR since when sitting at listening position the sound from the port will be substantially different than when it was recorded from the mic (its not like anyone listens to speakers sitting behind them!)

and 2) How do they measure the tweeter and the woofer seperately?

I don't see the answer to any of those 2 questions in your two quotes...
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post #117 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandarf
and the point is?
The point is ... you asked :
Quote:
One aspect I find strange (and I'm not backtracking from the value of measurements or anything), is that they just put a mic next to the rear port and add the curves with the woofer and tweeter.. (also how do they measure tweeter and woofer seperately?!)
That was the answer to your query.
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post #118 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
and the point is?

I asked two questions in the part you quoted. 1) How is it accurate to include the rear port measurement in FR since when sitting at listening position the sound from the port will be substantially different than when it was recorded from the mic (its not like anyone listens to speakers sitting behind them!)

and 2) How do they measure the tweeter and the woofer seperately?

I don't see the answer to any of those 2 questions in your two quotes...
And if you want to take in context:

Quote:
One aspect I find strange (and I'm not backtracking from the value of measurements or anything), is that they just put a mic next to the rear port and add the curves with the woofer and tweeter.. (also how do they measure tweeter and woofer seperately?!)

Anyhow, my point is, the sound you hear from the rear port will invariably differ depending on the placement of the speakers inroom! I mean, its not directly radiating sound towards the listener like a usual driver, so its weird to include it as a constant in the FR graph..
If you didn't understand correctly what I was trying to say: They add the 3 curves (port, tweeter and woofer) to get this graph: http://www.stereophile.com/images/ar...rt/Torfig4.jpg But like I said, port output is reflected towards the listener from the backwall, and depending on the distance from the rear wall, the intensity of the sound changes at listening position.. As the amount reflected isn't constant (varies on backwall distance), its not 'absolute'. They probably don't take into consideration the speaker manufacturers recommendations for distance toward rear wall when taking the rear port measurements, so its like they have an unknown variable in the curve.. :confused:
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Grandarf - The wavelengths in the port peak of 30 to 60 Hz will be from appx. 18.8 to 38.6 feet in length, as long as there is enough room behind the speaker, port direction will not matter.

And what I posted does explain how they handle the measurements. It is a direct quote from the review.
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post #120 of 515 Old 08-17-2005, 05:39 PM
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Of course port direction matters, and "enough room" makes no sens, try listening to Arros 1 feet from a backwall, then 3 feet, and then 5 feet. Then come back and tell me that "as long as there is enough room behind the speaker, port direction will not matter".

Of course it matters. Distance from the backwall will change the amount of bass reflected towards the listener. If its front ported, or side ported, then distance from the backwall becomes less of an issue than with rear ported...

Which is where room accoustics comes in and speaker placement becomes so important. Further from backwall, less bass, closer, more bass, tweak to get the balance you want.

Place the Rainmaker, Arro, Model1, Sttaf, 5 feet from a backwall, then 2 feet, and you'll realise that it totally changes the bass response... To say that port direction does not matter, or that "as long as there's a minimum distance behind the speaker" it will not change the bass response is ridiculous...
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