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post #10741 of 11430 Old 03-17-2014, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjodotcom View Post

I was certainly watching the blu ray - just listened again to make sure though wink.gif

So everything was perfectly clear with no distortion whatsoever? Some lines that really catch me are "five year mission Spock" and starship - rising out of the ocean". There just seems to be some fuzziness when those lines are spoken. There are obviously others but I'm using that scene as a good reference.

I did try plugging the center into the Absolute Tower into the center and noticed somewhat similar behavior....

This combined with the weird output from multichannel stereo has me wondering if anything is going on with that output on the AVR or not.

Make me wonder also if you are hearing the same behavior from the center out of your AT's. I checked several times at different SPL and that section is very clear. I wonder if your AVR has a problem. How old is it and have you noticed this before with other speakers (if you had other speakers before the NHT's). Do you by chance have another AVR in your home you could try it on?

Ray

 

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post #10742 of 11430 Old 03-17-2014, 10:51 AM
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Mjodotcom,

Something just occurred to me, did you do a re-calibration with your AT's on the center channel? If not I think there may be something else going on here, not sure why I did't think of it.

You're using a mic-stand for your calibration and calibrating at ear height. With your speaker so close to the floor, Audyssey would be boosting your treble for he center a LOT to make it flat (since the grazing angle mic would be too high for the center channel). This would make it sound harsh. Try, as mentioned before, with the center on the TV stand and re-calibrate. This may fix your issues and may not be a problem with your AVR at all.

Ray

 

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post #10743 of 11430 Old 03-17-2014, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

Mjodotcom,

Something just occurred to me, did you do a re-calibration with your AT's on the center channel? If not I think there may be something else going on here, not sure why I did't think of it.

You're using a mic-stand for your calibration and calibrating at ear height. With your speaker so close to the floor, Audyssey would be boosting your treble for he center a LOT to make it flat (since the grazing angle mic would be too high for the center channel). This would make it sound harsh. Try, as mentioned before, with the center on the TV stand and re-calibrate. This may fix your issues and may not be a problem with your AVR at all.

Hey Cav,

Good thought! I did not re-calibrate with the AT as the center channel.

I will do an experiment tonight where I sit the center on the top shelf (even though its in the way of the TV) and see how it sounds. Wouldn't male voices be below the treble frequency range thought?

Also, I suppose I could check it with Audyssey OFF as well - right?
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post #10744 of 11430 Old 03-17-2014, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mjodotcom View Post

Hey Cav,

Good thought! I did not re-calibrate with the AT as the center channel.

I will do an experiment tonight where I sit the center on the top shelf (even though its in the way of the TV) and see how it sounds. Wouldn't male voices be below the treble frequency range thought?

Also, I suppose I could check it with Audyssey OFF as well - right?

Yes, you could do it with Audyssey OFF, but would still be much better if you re-ran Audyssey to get a real sense of what it would sound like. Also, the male voices would still be affected, a LOT. Moving the speakers will affect all frequencies produced by the speaker. If you want a 'quick run', do at least 3 spots (MLP and one to L/R of MLP).

I'm crossing my fingers that this will solve your issue!

Ray

 

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post #10745 of 11430 Old 03-17-2014, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

Yes, you could do it with Audyssey OFF, but would still be much better if you re-ran Audyssey to get a real sense of what it would sound like. Also, the male voices would still be affected, a LOT. Moving the speakers will affect all frequencies produced by the speaker. If you want a 'quick run', do at least 3 spots (MLP and one to L/R of MLP).

I'm crossing my fingers that this will solve your issue!

I'm crossing my fingers too wink.gif

Considering Audyssey corrects for room influence - shouldn't I get the answer by moving the center and listening closely?
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post #10746 of 11430 Old 03-17-2014, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mjodotcom View Post

I'm crossing my fingers too wink.gif

Considering Audyssey corrects for room influence - shouldn't I get the answer by moving the center and listening closely?

Even if you listen closely, the speaker is still influenced by the room. I've done lots of setups for 'close range monitoring' for audio editing setups (small in-home studios) and you still have to use room correction (even if the room is treated well). It's still better to run your RC and then listen. You'll get a great sense of the results and if good, you can come up with a permanent solution to raise your monitor a bit and be aesthetically to your tastes. I know you were trying to avoid that, but it may be the only solution.

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post #10747 of 11430 Old 03-17-2014, 06:08 PM
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I see.

First observations are the dialog got clearer when Dynamic EQ is off. Then, turning Audyssey off altogether (pre moving it) resulted in some extra boominess in the center. This lines up with DEQ having an effect, since I normally listen at about -12db that would mean bass frequencies are getting boosted. XT32 appears to be taming them ok when this is turned off though.

I then moved the speaker to a foot stool out of the cabinet altogether with Audyssey off. This basically removed the boomy sounds I was hearing and things appeared a bit clearer still, though some dialog points were still a little harsh so this wasn't a silver bullet either.mcinally, I put it on the same shelf (right in front of the TV) and the sound was boomy again. Perhaps the proximity to the TV was boosting the lower frequencies? Per your last post I will do an EQ run now and see how it sounds.

I do have a question related to the off-axis positioning of the setup mic. Wouldn't this also be a problem if the speaker was above the TV? Considering it is above or below for many peoples HTs I would have to think they thought of this for their room correction algorithms?
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post #10748 of 11430 Old 03-17-2014, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

Make me wonder also if you are hearing the same behavior from the center out of your AT's. I checked several times at different SPL and that section is very clear. I wonder if your AVR has a problem. How old is it and have you noticed this before with other speakers (if you had other speakers before the NHT's). Do you by chance have another AVR in your home you could try it on?

Actually just for kicks I just put in the standard dvd version of the film and the dialog through this section sounds practically identical between the two versions!

I wonder what's up with that? Based on this info what you hear on your standard DVD is what I am ALSO hearing with the blu ray frown.gif

As reported on the AVR the audio output is correct
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post #10749 of 11430 Old 03-17-2014, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjodotcom View Post

I see.

First observations are the dialog got clearer when Dynamic EQ is off. Then, turning Audyssey off altogether (pre moving it) resulted in some extra boominess in the center. This lines up with DEQ having an effect, since I normally listen at about -12db that would mean bass frequencies are getting boosted. XT32 appears to be taming them ok when this is turned off though.

I then moved the speaker to a foot stool out of the cabinet altogether with Audyssey off. This basically removed the boomy sounds I was hearing and things appeared a bit clearer still, though some dialog points were still a little harsh so this wasn't a silver bullet either.mcinally, I put it on the same shelf (right in front of the TV) and the sound was boomy again. Perhaps the proximity to the TV was boosting the lower frequencies? Per your last post I will do an EQ run now and see how it sounds.

I do have a question related to the off-axis positioning of the setup mic. Wouldn't this also be a problem if the speaker was above the TV? Considering it is above or below for many peoples HTs I would have to think they thought of this for their room correction algorithms?

The Room Correction mic was designed to have the audio at a grazing angle to the mic when it's facing up. If the speaker were above the display facing down, it can still hit close to that angle (as it will with the speaker higher on the display stand). But, when the speaker is extremely low, it's not the case and the mid/treble range can become over boosted.

Yes, the shelf will increase the bass, which is why I recommend re-doing Audyssey before any listening. Any proximity to surfaces will boost certain frequencies (which is why you want the speaker slightly ahead of the shelf to reduce some of this, so should be stick out about 1/2" or so).

Ray

 

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post #10750 of 11430 Old 03-17-2014, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mjodotcom View Post

Actually just for kicks I just put in the standard dvd version of the film and the dialog through this section sounds practically identical between the two versions!

I wonder what's up with that? Based on this info what you hear on your standard DVD is what I am ALSO hearing with the blu ray frown.gif

As reported on the AVR the audio output is correct

This is strange, I can clearly hear the difference between the Dolby TrueHD loss-less (BluRay) and the regular Dolby Digital (DVD). Confirm when you are playing both that you can see that the BluRay version is doing TureHD. Even the detail of things like sounds of walking (when Kirk and Spock are going to see Pike) are much more clear and detailed as are the surround sounds. We have the same AVR and basically the same speakers with some minor differences with the towers but the centers have the same tweeter and midrange (TwoC and ThreeC).

Chime in when you did your re-cal with the center on the display stand and you do some listing. Makes me wonder about your AVR...or if your center has an issue.

Ray

 

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post #10751 of 11430 Old 03-17-2014, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

This is strange, I can clearly hear the difference between the Dolby TrueHD loss-less (BluRay) and the regular Dolby Digital (DVD). Confirm when you are playing both that you can see that the BluRay version is doing TureHD. Even the detail of things like sounds of walking (when Kirk and Spock are going to see Pike) are much more clear and detailed as are the surround sounds. We have the same AVR and basically the same speakers with some minor differences with the towers but the centers have the same tweeter and midrange (TwoC and ThreeC).

Chime in when you did your re-cal with the center on the display stand and you do some listing. Makes me wonder about your AVR...or if your center has an issue.

I moved the center up and did the quick recall.

I do think things sound better, but I can't tell at his point if I am being overly sensitive to this scene or not. To me it's good but still not clouds parted perfect. Maybe it's just a combination of this character and this scene, not sure. Does the "five year mission" line sound clear to you? It's mainly the S's Kirk says that seem harsh here.

Going between the regular and blu ray I can tell a greater difference for every other sound (always noticed the surrounds and background was better) and character EXCEPT Kirk wink.gif

I'm going to move the speaker up as much as as I can in the cabinet and move the front two inches out from the front and see how it sounds for now. Still kind of at a loss here...

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post #10752 of 11430 Old 03-17-2014, 08:59 PM
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Cav,

Another update. I did as mentioned above - moved the center even further out (2" now) and raised it another about 1.5". I also removed all of the "softer" components that we're propping the center up.

This time I did a full eight point cal and the results were MUCH better! The center is the clearest it has been yet. Man you are right when you say an inch can make a big difference!

I'm guessing an eight point cal would also have been better with the speaker up in the higher separate rig - unless having it much closer than the mains screws with Audyseey a little?

For now I am happy. Will still look for a better way to get the center higher and out of the cabinet, but this is a fairly big improvement. The infamous scene with Kirk is even better. There are still some tougher spots, but like I said earlier that might be me paying way to much attention to every word or something wink.gif

Thanks again for all the help! I have such a more ridiculous appreciation for room dynamics and how speaker placement plays into it now (including the stereo imaging help you gave me. While it still breaks down on the left side of the center spot which I might look for more guidance on its stable in the middle and on the right which is my MLP so that's good).

To sum it up: YOU ROCK!! biggrin.gif
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post #10753 of 11430 Old 03-18-2014, 06:26 AM
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Anyone selling their Absolute Zeros and Absolute Center ?
Let me know, trying to find a used set in black.
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post #10754 of 11430 Old 03-18-2014, 09:44 AM
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Anyone selling their Absolute Zeros and Absolute Center ?
Let me know, trying to find a used set in black.

You might check for sales from NHT.  I found Classic Two's for a steal on Wiredforless.  

 

Also, Egret Electronics has a pretty steep discount and shipping was incredibly fast with them.  


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post #10755 of 11430 Old 03-18-2014, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjodotcom View Post

Cav,

Another update. I did as mentioned above - moved the center even further out (2" now) and raised it another about 1.5". I also removed all of the "softer" components that we're propping the center up.

This time I did a full eight point cal and the results were MUCH better! The center is the clearest it has been yet. Man you are right when you say an inch can make a big difference!

I'm guessing an eight point cal would also have been better with the speaker up in the higher separate rig - unless having it much closer than the mains screws with Audyseey a little?

For now I am happy. Will still look for a better way to get the center higher and out of the cabinet, but this is a fairly big improvement. The infamous scene with Kirk is even better. There are still some tougher spots, but like I said earlier that might be me paying way to much attention to every word or something wink.gif

Thanks again for all the help! I have such a more ridiculous appreciation for room dynamics and how speaker placement plays into it now (including the stereo imaging help you gave me. While it still breaks down on the left side of the center spot which I might look for more guidance on its stable in the middle and on the right which is my MLP so that's good).

To sum it up: YOU ROCK!! biggrin.gif

Mjodotcom,

It's all you, you're the one that Rocks!!! You did all the work and discovery (and there is more).

Yes, acoustics is a very complex beast to deal with. That's why is speaker positioning and the room that makes the largest difference in the audio chain. Some day you may want to experiment with room treatments, an area where you'll get the best bang for the buck IMO (Everything becomes clearer, more detailed, and cleaner sounding as you can reduce ringing, reflections, and over bloated bass).

To be fair, it would have been better to do the 8-point cal with the speaker on the display stand. But, I'm glad you're happier with the results. The speaker up higher should have produced better results (usually, the best is if all the tweeters on the front stage are at the same height, but not possible for most folks with displays controlling much of the choices). When you have time, you can try that position again with the 8-point re-cal. I'm still hearing Kirk in that particular with no issues, so not sure what to say on that part (BluRay version of course). Just as you hear all the other sounds much better on BluRay vs DVD, Kirk's voice also follows that trend for me.

As for your stereo imaging, acoustic treatments would help tremendously in this arena. Getting rid of first reflection points is usually the biggest help here. This can be one of your future endeavors...

Chime in anytime, this was a great discussion.

Ray

 

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post #10756 of 11430 Old 03-18-2014, 07:53 PM
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So onto the next phase! What sort of room treatments should I look for?

Regarding the stereo imaging, do you think he left side proximity to the wall is the main cause of the left speaker localization on that side of the middle? Like I said, after angling the speakers in some the image holds well in the middle and to the right. Maybe I should just angle that speaker in more? Problem is I know going to crossing over 24" I'm front of the center point (currently at 12) also broke the stereo image down for the right side!
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post #10757 of 11430 Old 03-20-2014, 06:47 AM
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Question for you fine folks about speaker placement, and possibly building a riser for my towers.
 
A month ago, I replaced some JBL’s with a pair of Absolute Towers and a Two C for my theater.  The JBL’s were S38’s – a big bookshelf that I had up on stands.  The tweeter on the JBL’s were 5-6“ higher than the tweeter on the AT’s I have now.  All the drivers on the right JBL were well above the couch arm I am talking about in this post.
 
The placement that I question is the right front.  It is not behind a couch, but close to being somewhat blocked by it.  Here a couple pictures so you can see what I mean.  I took the grille off just so you can see where the drivers line up.  Apologies for the poor quality, I just took a couple quick shots with my phone this morning.
 

 
 

The first picture is taken from eye view at the rightmost seat in the main listening position.  MLP seating consists of 1 loveseat.  So that picture is the absolute worst case scenario.  As you move towards the center and left seat of the MLP, the right AT becomes less obstructed by the arm of the other loveseat.
 
The measurements are as follows… Tweeter height of AT is 36” while the couch arm height is 27”.  Distance between couch arm and AT is 18”.  AT’s are 6 feet apart and my ears are 8.5 feet from the TV.
 
Removing the offending loveseat and/or sliding the entire theater over to the left are not an option.
 
My options (as I see them) are…
1.  Slide both AT’s closer to the TV and narrow the soundstage
2.  Build a riser (4-5”) for each tower.
3.  Leave as is
 
Option 1 doesn’t really appeal to me, although moving each in a couple inches would be acceptable if someone were to talk me into it.  I was initially thinking I would do option 2, just to try to get that AT farther away from (and above) the loveseat arm.  However, after living with it for a month or so now, I’m wondering if option 3 is fine.
 
I have yet to run Audyssey, I was going to wait until I had the placement finalized.
 
Any thoughts on this?  Am I over-thinking it?
 
thanks,
steve

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post #10758 of 11430 Old 03-20-2014, 08:45 AM
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Hey Steve, I think you got a great set-up and I wouldn't stress out over-thinking it.  To be completely honest, I have never been able to tell a significant difference when the difference includes mere inches of placement.  I think I would weight both aesthetics and audio performance when it comes to placement.  Trust me, nobody is going to notice except for you (or perhaps your audiophile friends)... but if it is a significant sacrifice in aesthetics to move things than that is the first thing that people will notice (thus detract from the overall enjoyment of the system... because lets be honest, the system needs to look great too).  

 

Is that an SVS subwoofer off to the right?


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post #10759 of 11430 Old 03-20-2014, 10:26 AM
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Yes, that's an SVS 20-39CS. Custom port tuned to 17Hz.

Thanks for the reply. I know what you mean about over-thinking. It's just that my main concern is that couch is "this close" to blocking line of sight to a couple of those drivers. I'm leaning towards leaving the setup as is, but i was just curious about any opinions other than mine.

I turn the sharpness on my TV all the way up, because that's how I like my picture... real sharp.
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post #10760 of 11430 Old 03-21-2014, 12:53 PM
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I do my self no favors with my rack. It is a Salamander Twin 20, open back and perforated doors. I have a good 5 inched above the Onk, but that unit in that rack really needs better ventilation. I did not have quite that much space over the Denon, but as mentioned while pretty warm it was not like the Onk.
Salamander makes active cooling kits for their cabinets and also Perforated steel side panels to help with the cooling.

http://www.salamanderdesigns.com/products/details/428a72f7-60e1-a3e9-9c7d-5125e3800e5d

http://www.salamanderdesigns.com/products/details/61bacc79-4337-b936-46b7-5125e39f6f8f
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post #10761 of 11430 Old 03-21-2014, 01:49 PM
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Salamander makes active cooling kits for their cabinets and also Perforated steel side panels to help with the cooling.

http://www.salamanderdesigns.com/products/details/428a72f7-60e1-a3e9-9c7d-5125e3800e5d

http://www.salamanderdesigns.com/products/details/61bacc79-4337-b936-46b7-5125e39f6f8f

Yup, I was checking those out. They appear to be nicely engineered solutions. I would have to make some changes to my cabling to allow the the back panel to work, but it may be doable. As for the side panels, FWIW, I personally wanted to go w/o side panels or doors, but I had some WAF issues which prevented that. :-(

FWIW, I did install the Outlaw amp, and truth be told, even with the Onk only doing pre-amp duties, it still runs extremely hot. I was expecting that offloading the speaker load would have made a significant difference, but it did not. Even the Outlaw seems to be pretty toasty driving the NHT's. I think the bottom line is, as has been suggested, lack of proper ventilation for both the Onk and the Outlaw. I have some real space constraints in my room, but I am thinking I may get a small amp stand and put the Outlaw on that in the open air, which would let me drop the shelf the Onk sits on down significantly, which should help it, plus there will no longer be another significant heat source directly below.
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post #10762 of 11430 Old 03-23-2014, 10:52 AM
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You changed the game by running the mains full range. I have no doubt that it sounded different, and possibly better, but it was because you changed how your bass management was configured rather than due to having an new amp.

As for how much power one needs, using my Classic 3's which Stereophile measured at 83dB, here is what that means.

1 watt - 83dB
2 watts - 86 dB
4 watts - 89 dB
8 watts - 92 dB
16 watts - 95 dB
32 watts - 98 dB
64 watts - 101 dB

Granted, these measurements would be at 1 meter from the speaker, but in an average room, those are still pretty loud numbers before a 50 watt amp runs out of gas.

There is some interesting discussion in this thread relating to speaker efficiency, watts, reference level etc.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1387083/list-of-reference-level-high-sensitivity-spl-speakers

Again, just to reiterate since I was the guy that introduced the current discussion of separate amps to the read, for me it is all about helping my Onkyo NOT self immolate. I would not expect to see any improvement in SQ.

Brian

Out of curiosity I decided to bi-amp my VT-2s without using the sub out on my receiver. Instead I hooked them up using the speaker outs from receiver to the upper posts of the speakers and used the main pre-outs to my external amp then to the lower speaker posts. Speaker configuration on the receiver is main speakers = large/ no sub. This seems to give me excellent sound quality from lows to highs. I guess using the receiver's crossover on top of the speaker's crossover isn't a good option.

Thanks for the help!

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post #10763 of 11430 Old 03-24-2014, 08:34 AM
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Update:

I dug up my old Mirage LFX-1 Active crossover and hooked it up between my receiver and amp. HOLY COW!!!! This is absolutely the best my speakers have ever sounded!eek.gif I had no idea what a tremendous impact crossovers had! I've been in this hobby for over 20 years and there is still so much to learn.
Just wanted to share my experience and thank everyone on this forum for letting me enjoy my system like never before!biggrin.gif

NHT speakers, Denon 4520, Panasonic 65VT50, DUAL PSA XS30SE's
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post #10764 of 11430 Old 03-26-2014, 04:57 PM
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Never heard of some of these sites. Where is the best place to buy some Absolute towers now? My wife is not liking the sound from our other speakers in our other room so she's only using our HT setup.

What would be a "budget friendly" receiver or amp to use with those speakers? All music will be played off our tablet/iTunes etc..

* Been off the forum for a couple weeks buying the wife a new car, and this thread exploded with new posts.
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post #10765 of 11430 Old 03-26-2014, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall.White View Post

Never heard of some of these sites. Where is the best place to buy some Absolute towers now? My wife is not liking the sound from our other speakers in our other room so she's only using our HT setup.

What would be a "budget friendly" receiver or amp to use with those speakers? All music will be played off our tablet/iTunes etc..

* Been off the forum for a couple weeks buying the wife a new car, and this thread exploded with new posts.

If they go on sale... wiredforless will reflect the sale just as NHT would http://wiredforless.com/search?q=nht

 

As far as AVR's are concerned I suppose one with all the "features" you'll use would suffice.  Power might be a problem below the 100w/channel.  Maybe an Outlaw amplifier would help.


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post #10766 of 11430 Old 03-26-2014, 10:29 PM
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I don't think I'd need many features. Mainly just iPod/iPhone hook up. Maybe hook it up to my TV in there but that's not a concern.

Found a Marantz slim receiver for 299 but only is 50w RMS. That's probably not enough?
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post #10767 of 11430 Old 03-26-2014, 10:51 PM
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T
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall.White View Post

I don't think I'd need many features. Mainly just iPod/iPhone hook up. Maybe hook it up to my TV in there but that's not a concern.

Found a Marantz slim receiver for 299 but only is 50w RMS. That's probably not enough?
That's definitely not gonna cut it w/NHT's. The Marantz SR6008 can be had for ~$950 and it'll treat the NHT's well. Also, the Pioneer Elite SC model line (not VSX) comes with class D3 amplification. Might look into a 2013 model when they go on sale (2014 too be released soon).

Gear: Pioneer VSX-1124-K, NHT Classic Three (L/R), Classic Two (rear) TwoC (center).
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post #10768 of 11430 Old 03-27-2014, 04:23 AM
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How large is the room, and how loud does she listen? Any respectable AVR will work fine for 90% of people.

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post #10769 of 11430 Old 03-27-2014, 05:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhughy2010 View Post

T
That's definitely not gonna cut it w/NHT's. The Marantz SR6008 can be had for ~$950 and it'll treat the NHT's well. Also, the Pioneer Elite SC model line (not VSX) comes with class D3 amplification. Might look into a 2013 model when they go on sale (2014 too be released soon).
The overkill solution is safe, I guess that's why so many people here post overkill solutions that are much more gear and money than necessary. But it's useless as advice.

Randall.White, you don't need to spend $1,000 on a receiver for the Absolute Towers in a 2 channel setup used for music. And BTW, depending on how loud someone listens, 40-50W can be plenty. Few people routinely use even that much power.

And are the towers what she needs?

You might check the NHT clearance/b stock page. Also give them a call.
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post #10770 of 11430 Old 03-27-2014, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall.White View Post

I don't think I'd need many features. Mainly just iPod/iPhone hook up. Maybe hook it up to my TV in there but that's not a concern.

Found a Marantz slim receiver for 299 but only is 50w RMS. That's probably not enough?

Hi Randall, not sure what your budget is for the receiver but since you stated that you'd mostly be playing music from your idevices, I would recommend you get a receiver with the AirPlay feature.
I have a couple of Denons (4311 & 3311) that work (sound) great for NHT's. Being able to play and control your music wirelessly with your idevices is really cool and work great. I'm sure your wife will love it too..
Most of the newer (and older) Denons have airplay built in and there are free apps (Denon Remote) you can use to control not just music but many of the features of your receiver.
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