Calling all Polkies:Official Polk thread - Page 441 - AVS Forum
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post #13201 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

What you have there is a PA amp. it is not designed for use with a guitar

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Your pro grade crown you are so proud of is great for a single Gibson guitar, or a vocalist, and that is what it is meant to do

I believe you may have yourself in such a tizzy that you are doubling back on what you are saying. Well, which is it? Stop being in such a hurry to present the appearance your 'sage' status and it won't look so bad for you.

All I offered Ender (and obviously this sent him running to you) is next time I am in Indianapolis is to tote along an amp and SBT for him. Let his ears be the judge instead of being a parrot.

I have owned a Pass designed Adcom in the past. There are guys that are nuts about Amp designers, there are guys that are nuts about speaker/transducer designers. I'll throw in with a great speaker designer.

Check out the Peavy IPR 1600 thread where some people have had a chance to A/B to Bryston and Pass Labs (but I'm sure while your opinion holds water, theirs wouldn't).

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post #13202 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

All I offered Ender (and obviously this sent him running to you) is next time I am in Indianapolis is to tote along an amp and SBT for him. Let his ears be the judge instead of being a parrot.

Actually I figured that since you referenced Johns thread I should invite him to clarify his point of view.

You doing a SBT with the methodology you discussed (level matching, etc) would render the test pointless IMHO for the same reasons John described in his initial post.

I just figured that since you were going to reference John, I'd invite him to the party since you felt him a knowledgeable enough source to reference.


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post #13203 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 07:35 AM
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nooshinjohn did you register at this site just stir the pot, or do you actually have something useful to contribute?

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!

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post #13204 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post


You doing a SBT with the methodology you discussed (level matching, etc) would render the test pointless IMHO for the same reasons John described in his initial post.

Ender why don't you highlight where John pointed out any such in his initial post. Now I can count the name calling which is usually a sign that one doesn't actually have any merit to add.

It's clear you have zero interest in a methodical approach. Just be prepared to be challenged by Jonnythan, Jason, my-self, others. You simply dismissing a SBT doesn't make it any less effective. It just points to a fundamental misunderstanding that you don't seem willing to correct for.

When you use the word that product X is going to 'stomp' product Y and you define zero parameters well that is going to invite critique.

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post #13205 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 07:36 AM
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Hey guys,

I am new to the forum but i am looking at setting up a polk surround system.

My room is quite large, about 25x15 with 8 ft ceilings. I just purchases a Denon 2112CI. I am looking at getting some polk speakers. I am thinking two options and wanted the opinions of the polkies. I am on a budget of about $500.

Option 1
Monitor 60s or 70s floor standers
CS2 Center
OWM or Blackstone series surrounds

Option 2
Monitor 40 or TSI100 bookshelves
CS2 center
OWM or Blackstone surrounds


As you can see, i cannot afford a sub at the moment but wanted to get the best bang for my buck right now. Which is the better option? Please include suggestions as I am a noob and am open to anything.

Thanks.
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post #13206 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by mikkni View Post

Hey guys,

I am new to the forum but i am looking at setting up a polk surround system.

My room is quite large, about 25x15 with 8 ft ceilings. I just purchases a Denon 2112CI. I am looking at getting some polk speakers. I am thinking two options and wanted the opinions of the polkies. I am on a budget of about $500.

Option 1
Monitor 60s or 70s floor standers
CS2 Center
OWM or Blackstone series surrounds

Option 2
Monitor 40 or TSI100 bookshelves
CS2 center
OWM or Blackstone surrounds


As you can see, i cannot afford a sub at the moment but wanted to get the best bang for my buck right now. Which is the better option? Please include suggestions as I am a noob and am open to anything.

Thanks.


I'd get the 70's for now since you do not have a sub budget at this time. The 70's bass response is pretty good on their own and should make you happy until you can get a good sub to round out the system.

The denon you got is a pretty good avr and will have no problems pushing the 70's to ear splitting levels if so desired.

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!

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post #13207 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 07:46 AM
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I am looking for new speakers, I am interested in the new lsim bookshelf and center, I can not find any reveiws and my local dealer does not have them, looking for opinions on these, thanks
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post #13208 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikkni View Post

Hey guys,

I am new to the forum but i am looking at setting up a polk surround system.

My room is quite large, about 25x15 with 8 ft ceilings. I just purchases a Denon 2112CI. I am looking at getting some polk speakers. I am thinking two options and wanted the opinions of the polkies. I am on a budget of about $500.

Option 1
Monitor 60s or 70s floor standers
CS2 Center
OWM or Blackstone series surrounds

Option 2
Monitor 40 or TSI100 bookshelves
CS2 center
OWM or Blackstone surrounds


As you can see, i cannot afford a sub at the moment but wanted to get the best bang for my buck right now. Which is the better option? Please include suggestions as I am a noob and am open to anything.

Thanks.

Jamo 5.0 system on blow out for $199 shipped

BIC H-100 Sub for $279.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #13209 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

When you use the word that product X is going to 'stomp' product Y and you define zero parameters well that is going to invite critique.

Read my initial post below that your referring too. Please note I DO NOT make a reference that product X is going to stomp product Y. I simply state there will be a better amp on the used market than the Emo New (section highlighted in red).

The line below directly referencing my Carver is in reference to another point entirely.

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Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post

It will work fine, but I add this caveat: If your looking at the xpa-5 NEW there are much better options in the USED market that will stomp that amp. This is provided you are ok with purchasing off sites like Ebay, Audiogon, or other audio forums.

I bought a Carver AV-705x amp used for 250 that drives my LSi 15 (harder to drive than the 25's) and LSiC with NO problems.


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Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

Ender why don't you highlight where John pointed out any such in his initial post.

As requested:

Quote:
Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

SBT/DBT testing done under the methodology you propose is useless as nulling the volume differences between the two amps serves to negate the very differences you are trying to discern. It's not about volume, rather it is about the ability of an amp to control a speaker and reproduce sound faithfully, and articulately.


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Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

It's clear you have zero interest in a methodical approach. Just be prepared to be challenged by Jonnythan, Jason, my-self, others. You simply dismissing a SBT doesn't make it any less effective. It just points to a fundamental misunderstanding that you don't seem willing to correct for.

Lets clarify, I have zero interest in a methodical approach using your methodology. If one amp sounds louder than another at a given volume, thats something I would want to know. Thats why even though NAD amps have a low spec'd wattage they still sound better at a given volume than other amps with twice their wattage ratings. My Carver was bested by a lower model NAD amp on a set of Maggies WITHOUT question. Just because you can make them both sound the same by leveling one amp up or down to account for its flaws compared to the other amp, doesnt make them equal.


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post #13210 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikkni View Post

I am on a budget of about $500.

Option 1
Monitor 60s or 70s floor standers
CS2 Center
OWM or Blackstone series surrounds

Option 2
Monitor 40 or TSI100 bookshelves
CS2 center
OWM or Blackstone surrounds

As you can see, i cannot afford a sub at the moment but wanted to get the best bang for my buck right now.

Option 2 is definitely out IMO given your room size. The M40's would be inadequate at best and the Tsi100's even more so (note either would be good in a small room, such as bedroom).

Best bang for the buck would be M60's if you must have 5.0 at this point. Wait for the CS2 and OWM3's to go on sale for ~$100 (it happens pretty often). If you can wait on the surrounds, you would probably be happier going with just a 3.0 setup for the time being, consisting of the CS2 and M70 fronts, rather than M60's. Either could be done within your budget. So, it's:

Option 1: CS2, M60 fronts, OWM3 surrounds
Option 2: CS2, M70 fronts, larger surrounds come later

Polk RtiA9's, Denon 3312ci & Emo XPA-5 amp, CsiA6, RtiA7 surrounds, FxiA6 rears, twin Klipsch Synergy Sub-12's, DSW660 & Lsi9's upstairs
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post #13211 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 08:31 AM
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Neither of you know what he said. This is getting farcical way to quickly.

All I have to do is match the gain structure. With the pre-amp driving voltage unchanged to get the same voltage read out on my multi-meter.

That is with your setup as it currently sits take a 1khz voltage reading at the speaker terminals with your Carver. Then plug the Crown in place and play the 1Khz signal and adjust the attenuation on the Crown until the MM reads same. At that point both amps will be at parity gain soup to nuts.

You can then make a VERY accurate SBT.

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A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #13212 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post

Lets clarify, I have zero interest in a methodical approach

A point that is startlingly clear. You still don't understand even the fundamental of gain structure (hint: it's not a 'volume' control).

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #13213 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post

Read my initial post below that your referring too. Please note I DO NOT make a reference that product X is going to stomp product Y. I simply state there will be a better amp on the used market than the Emo New (section highlighted in red).

The line below directly referencing my Carver is in reference to another point entirely.






As requested:






Lets clarify, I have zero interest in a methodical approach using your methodology. If one amp sounds louder than another at a given volume, thats something I would want to know. Thats why even though NAD amps have a low spec'd wattage they still sound better at a given volume than other amps with twice their wattage ratings. My Carver was bested by a lower model NAD amp on a set of Maggies WITHOUT question. Just because you can make them both sound the same by leveling one amp up or down to account for its flaws compared to the other amp, doesnt make them equal.

An amp should not, and properly functioning ones will not color the sound (tube amps by their very nature being a possible exception to the rule). Perhaps you should rethink your lack of interest on using a methodical approach.

All an amp will do is is amplify a signal. Better power supplies, capicitors and/or watts per channel etc will increase head room allowing for a louder sound pressure levels before audible distortion is noticeable. Anything other then this is pure nonsense.


I though you didn't want to start a flame war, and I thought you said all you wanted to say on this subject several posts ago. Why you still arguing your flawed beliefs when science and facts trumps them every time?

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!

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post #13214 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by 67jason View Post

nooshinjohn did you register at this site just stir the pot, or do you actually have something useful to contribute?

I think I have contributed something useful already, in that I have summed up the comments made in the threads that jinjuku brought over her fro a forum. That banned him for his behavior, not his beliefs.

I am here to help others learn. I am here to add to the discusssion. The concept that is put forth to administer a dbt is flawed. Would you not think it foolish to do such a test between a Chevy Cobalt and a Corvette? Let's adjust the vette's volume to match the Cobalt's.... Then lets race.

The test would prove beyond any doubt that the Corvette is an overpriced overhyped pos and the Cobalt wins because it is a "giant killer"...
Of course that example is absurd, but it illustrates the point that null testing is equally absurd.
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post #13215 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by 67jason View Post

.

All an amp will do is is amplify a signal. Better power supplies, capicitors and/or watts per channel etc will increase head room allowing for a louder sound pressure levels before audible distortion is noticeable. Anything other then this is pure nonsense?

there is so much wrong in this statement that I dont know where to begin...

More power is not about volume, unless you are talking about a PA amp. More power and an amps ability to control, store, and deliver that power instantaneously when the music demands it is the job of the amplifier. This is also the reason null testing fails. I find more hidden subtleties in a recording at low to moderate levels of power than I do at reference levels because my amp has the ability to instantly deliver the power needed.
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post #13216 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

I think I have contributed something useful already, in that I have summed up the comments made in the threads that jinjuku brought over her fro a forum. That banned him for his behavior, not his beliefs.

I am here to help others learn. I am here to add to the discusssion. The concept that is put forth to administer a dbt is flawed. Would you not think it foolish to do such a test between a Chevy Cobalt and a Corvette? Let's adjust the vette's volume to match the Cobalt's.... Then lets race.

The test would prove beyond any doubt that the Corvette is an overpriced overhyped pos and the Cobalt wins because it is a "giant killer"...
Of course that example is absurd, but it illustrates the point that null testing is equally absurd.

Lol, you can't have it both ways. Then let me grab a Drive Core 1500 and just slap it in to Enders setup and perform an SBT.

Where his Carver hits the wall the 1500 will still have plenty of head room and positive at this point it will be a better amp.

Again I will let the threads I linked to stand on their merit. That Polkies couldn't distinguish between two competent, like rated, amps: Emotiva XPA-2 and Sunfire Grand Signature irregardless of gain matching or level matching.

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post #13217 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

there is so much wrong in this statement that I dont know where to begin...

More power is not about volume, unless you are talking about a PA amp. More power and an amps ability to control, store, and deliver that power instantaneously when the music demands it is the job of the amplifier. This is also the reason null testing fails. I find more hidden subtleties in a recording at low to moderate levels of power than I do at reference levels because my amp has the ability to instantly deliver the power needed.



so much learning is needed. stick around AVS and study up. You will learn a thing or two in the process.

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!

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post #13218 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

there is so much wrong in this statement that I dont know where to begin...

More power is not about volume, unless you are talking about a PA amp. More power and an amps ability to control, store, and deliver that power instantaneously when the music demands it is the job of the amplifier. This is also the reason null testing fails. I find more hidden subtleties in a recording at low to moderate levels of power than I do at reference levels because my amp has the ability to instantly deliver the power needed.

your analogy is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. You cannot compare apples to triangles to prove a point.


Show me any scientifically based study that proves beyond a reasonable doubt there is audible differences between amps when driven within specs....oh wait you cant.

Alll those subtleties you hear is due to the badge on the amp and/or the price tag attached to it. Nothing more, excluding processing/eq of course.

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!

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post #13219 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

Lol, you can't have it both ways. Then let me grab a Drive Core 1500 and just slap it in to Enders setup and perform an SBT.

Where his Carver hits the wall the 1500 will still have plenty of head room and positive at this point it will be a better amp.

Again I will let the threads I linked to stand on their merit. That Polkies couldn't distinguish between two competent, like rated, amps: Emotiva XPA-2 and Sunfire Grand Signature irregardless of gain matching or level matching.

There was never an emotiva in the room. Ther was no test between the two done! Those comments were meant as a joke. The Sunfire was also quite new at the time and had not been broken in yet after extensive refurbishment. Do you bother at all to read the threads you linked?
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post #13220 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

There was never an emotiva in the room. Ther was no test between the two done! Those comments were meant as a joke. The Sunfire was also quite new at the time and had not been broken in yet after extensive refurbishment. Do you bother at all to read the threads you linked?

What is this "broken in" thing you speak of?

Do you mean that the amp wasn't broken yet?



PS....electrical components, unlike many mechanical components, do not need a "breaking in"....they work or they don't. electrons do not have to learn how to travel signal paths or wire for that matter.

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post #13221 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 09:50 AM
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Option 2 is definitely out IMO given your room size. The M40's would be inadequate at best and the Tsi100's even more so (note either would be good in a small room, such as bedroom).

Best bang for the buck would be M60's if you must have 5.0 at this point. Wait for the CS2 and OWM3's to go on sale for ~$100 (it happens pretty often). If you can wait on the surrounds, you would probably be happier going with just a 3.0 setup for the time being, consisting of the CS2 and M70 fronts, rather than M60's. Either could be done within your budget. So, it's:

Option 1: CS2, M60 fronts, OWM3 surrounds
Option 2: CS2, M70 fronts, larger surrounds come later

I have been thinking option 2 all along, just wanted to get audiophile opinions. A poster put up the Jamo 5.0 system, isnt that a rebadged energy system? Would that 5.0 system with a Bic sub as the poster suggested be better than all polks in time? I really like Polk and its really the only thing I can audition (Best Buy) and in my proce range.
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post #13222 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

There was never an emotiva in the room. Ther was no test between the two done! Those comments were meant as a joke. The Sunfire was also quite new at the time and had not been broken in yet after extensive refurbishment. Do you bother at all to read the threads you linked?

If there was no XPA-2 in the room why bring up the fact that the Sunfire had just been refurbed and not 'broken in' yet? Bringing up those points are simply a way to explain why there wasn't a distinguishable difference.

It's quite clear there was an A/B.

First step when one finds themselves in a hole is to stop digging. Heck we are even trying to throw you a rope to climb out with but you seem bent on wrapping it around your neck. Fine with me, it is your neck after all.

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post #13223 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by mikkni View Post

I have been thinking option 2 all along, just wanted to get audiophile opinions. A poster put up the Jamo 5.0 system, isnt that a rebadged energy system? Would that 5.0 system with a Bic sub as the poster suggested be better than all polks in time? I really like Polk and its really the only thing I can audition (Best Buy) and in my proce range.

I'm taking your budget (price range) as an absolute barrier, so you want to get the best speakers you can afford without going over. Having owned both M60's and M70's you'll likely be happy with either, but if you go with the 60's you'll always wonder if maybe the 70's would have been better. They DO sound different, with the 60's being a bit more brilliant and the 70's sounding fuller and more mellow.

As for the sub, most here will agree that you should buy the best sub you can afford. Save up for a $300-500 sub if you can. The BIC line is okay but IMO you may (and for the fans, I repeat may) outgrow it. Currently the Polk 505 is on sale at NewEgg if you get their email specials (if you don't, you should get on their mailing list asap). A number of users here are happy with the 505, but be aware that it is basically the only decent bargain sub in the Polk line.

Personally I am not familiar with the Jamo product line. There is probably a Jamo forum here on AVS, but it is quite possible you may only find fans (devotees or advocates) there. Seems to often be the case. I'd say that most likely a $200 anything is something you will eventually outgrow and end up money down the drain.

Polk RtiA9's, Denon 3312ci & Emo XPA-5 amp, CsiA6, RtiA7 surrounds, FxiA6 rears, twin Klipsch Synergy Sub-12's, DSW660 & Lsi9's upstairs
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post #13224 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by RobLee View Post


Personally I am not familiar with the Jamo product line. There is probably a Jamo forum here on AVS, but it is quite possible you may only find fans (devotees or advocates) there. Seems to often be the case. I'd say that most likely a $200 anything is something you will eventually outgrow and end up money down the drain.


I wouldn't let the price come into the equation of SQ. Using that approach says if I gave the poster a 5.1 set of PSB Image T45's that since the 'cost' was zero that they will be looking elsewhere in awhile.

I do agree that they need to simply evaluate the JAMO's on experience/reviews/ even specs.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #13225 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

If there was no XPA-2 in the room why bring up the fact that the Sunfire had just been refurbed and not 'broken in' yet? Bringing up those points are simply a way to explain why there wasn't a distinguishable difference.

It's quite clear there was an A/B.

First step when one finds themselves in a hole is to stop digging. Heck we are even trying to throw you a rope to climb out with but you seem bent on wrapping it around your neck. Fine with me, it is your neck after all.

Read the gearlist from the thread before calling me a liar. I don' t take kindly to that. There was no a/b test, only a snide comment made because of what was learned in the other thread you linked. A joke was made and nothing more. I won' tspend any more time on that except to say that by reading that thread you will clearly see that once again, you know nothing about which you speak.
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post #13226 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 10:39 AM
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Jesus. Take it to another thread.
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post #13227 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by jonnythan View Post

Jesus. Take it to another thread.

This should take care of noosh:

"The last Indiana Gathering i went to, we all realized at the same time (though we didn't tell john, because we didn't want to make him cry :tongue that the Sunfire Grand Signature that he brought sounded EXACTLY LIKE THE XPA-2.

I would bet good money that the two amps are more than just kissing cousins."


The post speaks for itself.

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post #13228 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 10:47 AM
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post #13229 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 10:50 AM
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Wow! I was just looking for a little direction on how to power my LSi's...

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post #13230 of 39117 Old 04-13-2012, 11:15 AM
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Wow! I was just looking for a little direction on how to power my LSi's...

Amp that is 4 ohm stable and good for ~200-250 watts RMS. Parasound HCA-1000A's are a good value for around $200-225.

I have a Crown XLS 1000 Drive Core in for a customer and for $299. Yowza. It's even 2 Ohm rated. There is a fan and even when it is on, can't hear it. Doesn't even register on my SPL meter above ambient a foot away.

The nice thing about the Crown is it has a built in Crossover. So you could take the 1/4" out on the Crown and go to subs and set the X-Over (Highpass) for 83Hz. Nice feature for $299.

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