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post #32881 of 32888 Old 07-24-2015, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by TankDiver View Post
Looking for some help here, guys. We are moving into our new construction home in a few weeks. The great room where the HT will be is roughly 21' x 16'. That being said, I've done a lot of research as to what speaker brand I want; I've decided on DT. At first, I was going to go with some BP8060s but was reading how the built in subs aren't all that impressive and that I should get a dedicated sub. Now, I'm leaning towards some bookshelf speakers, such as the PM1000s or SM55s, or maybe even the SM45s. Which speakers would you guys recommend for mains in a room this size? For what it's worth, the sub I'm going with will be the SVS PB-1000.
Answered you in the other thread, but to add to it, in that size room the 45's and 1000's are going to be very similar sounding, only real difference would be speaker placement because of the rear port on the 45's compared to the top radiator on the 1000's.
See the above picture for what 3 65's look like, that setup would be optimal without going to towers.

*Warning* None of my suggestions, ideas or even thoughts have any WAF, in any way!
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post #32882 of 32888 Old 07-25-2015, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by ALtlOff View Post
Answered you in the other thread, but to add to it, in that size room the 45's and 1000's are going to be very similar sounding, only real difference would be speaker placement because of the rear port on the 45's compared to the top radiator on the 1000's.
See the above picture for what 3 65's look like, that setup would be optimal without going to towers.
Thanks! Maybe I should just get a pair of BP-8040STs and call it a day.
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post #32883 of 32888 Old 07-25-2015, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by TankDiver View Post
Thanks! Maybe I should just get a pair of BP-8040STs and call it a day.
Lol...that's a loaded comment for me.... I still believe in the old school thought of "as full channel of a speaker as you can get" esp. for the front 2, but I'll be the first to tell you, it's an out dated and not too accepted concept now.

You can do just as well with "good" bookshelves and "good" Subs (yes plural, you want at least two to truly create the even bass sound that towers will give you for the non-LFE bass, IMO) but a lot of that is personal taste and most people who have never actually used good full range towers will never know the difference, esp. with what the Supertowers can do.

More over it will depend on how much your willing to spend, if you like the look of towers or not, and if you think it's worth it to you to spend the difference.

As far as the Supertowers go the 8040's are a good choice, IMO the 8020's just aren't strong enough to warrant the extra cost over the SM65's or 55's, and the 8040's and 8060's are so close in sound that you might as well save a few bucks and get the 8040's, that is if you don't want to spend the extra for the 8080's, they are actually that much better.

But, your room size isn't too large for the SM65's, and they will really surprise you in what they can do, plus with what you can save, you can get that second PB1000.

And don't forget, placement is also a consideration, the Supertowers need more room to breathe, you want at least 8-10" between them and the front wall and at least 10-12" to the side walls for your best sound quality.
The 65's or 55's don't require near that much space around them.

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post #32884 of 32888 Old Yesterday, 03:39 PM
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I picked up a pair of 8040ST and a ProCenter 1000 this weekend as a first stage of replacing my Polk small sat setup I've had for the past 10 years or so. The ProCenter was a bit of a compromise for space, I really couldn't fit anything else where my center goes. I intend to pick up a pair of 8040BP sometime in the next few months to replace my old rear channels.

Going back to automated setups for a bit. I have a Denon AVR-X2200W with Audyssey MultEQ XT and I did some experimenting with them. This is what I found.

I started with the sub set slightly past 12 o'clock. When I ran through the setup, Denon detected the speakers as Large and Audyssey applied -12 db correction to the sub level. -12 is the limit and is usually indicative of having the sub level set too high. So, I tried again with the sub turned down a bit. That time, Denon detected the speakers as "Small" with a crossover of 40hz. Audyssey was still reporting -12 db of correction so that indicated the sub had to be brought down even more.

Finally, on the 3rd attempt, I turned down the sub to just past 1/4. Now Denon said the crossover was at 100hz. Audyssey then reported only -8.5 db of correction for the sub so that meant I finally hit reference levels.

So, it seems that turning down the sub past halfway can affect how auto-calibration hears the range of the speakers. At that point you have a decision to make. You can keep the speakers small which then shunts anything below the crossover to the subs. That means you lose L/R channel separation on those frequencies and possibly tasking the sub with producing higher than capable sound. On the flip-side though, sound that low isn't very directional and by shunting those frequencies to the sub you employ a higher resolution correction filter from Audyssey.

I can easily go back in after the correction and tell the receiver that the fronts are large to restore full range to the speakers itself, but that may not be the best way to go either. I'll probably play around with it a bit more to see how I like it.

One thing I may try is only hooking up one sub for LFE. It may allow me to run the amps on them a bit higher without having them be corrected downward so much.

Last edited by bull3964; Yesterday at 03:44 PM.
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post #32885 of 32888 Old Today, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by bull3964 View Post
I picked up a pair of 8040ST and a ProCenter 1000 this weekend as a first stage of replacing my Polk small sat setup I've had for the past 10 years or so. The ProCenter was a bit of a compromise for space, I really couldn't fit anything else where my center goes. I intend to pick up a pair of 8040BP sometime in the next few months to replace my old rear channels.

Going back to automated setups for a bit. I have a Denon AVR-X2200W with Audyssey MultEQ XT and I did some experimenting with them. This is what I found.

I started with the sub set slightly past 12 o'clock. When I ran through the setup, Denon detected the speakers as Large and Audyssey applied -12 db correction to the sub level. -12 is the limit and is usually indicative of having the sub level set too high. So, I tried again with the sub turned down a bit. That time, Denon detected the speakers as "Small" with a crossover of 40hz. Audyssey was still reporting -12 db of correction so that indicated the sub had to be brought down even more.

Finally, on the 3rd attempt, I turned down the sub to just past 1/4. Now Denon said the crossover was at 100hz. Audyssey then reported only -8.5 db of correction for the sub so that meant I finally hit reference levels.

So, it seems that turning down the sub past halfway can affect how auto-calibration hears the range of the speakers. At that point you have a decision to make. You can keep the speakers small which then shunts anything below the crossover to the subs. That means you lose L/R channel separation on those frequencies and possibly tasking the sub with producing higher than capable sound. On the flip-side though, sound that low isn't very directional and by shunting those frequencies to the sub you employ a higher resolution correction filter from Audyssey.

I can easily go back in after the correction and tell the receiver that the fronts are large to restore full range to the speakers itself, but that may not be the best way to go either. I'll probably play around with it a bit more to see how I like it.

One thing I may try is only hooking up one sub for LFE. It may allow me to run the amps on them a bit higher without having them be corrected downward so much.
I'm guessing you are running LFE and speaker wire to your 8040's? I personally have had better results when running only speaker wire and allowing the internal crossover in the Def Techs to split between the bass and mid/tweeters. Since you aren't running a sub (I don't think) I would try setting the fronts to large and setting the bass management in the receiver to send LFE to the mains. YMMV but that has worked well for me in the past with powered towers
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post #32886 of 32888 Old Today, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post
I'm guessing you are running LFE and speaker wire to your 8040's? I personally have had better results when running only speaker wire and allowing the internal crossover in the Def Techs to split between the bass and mid/tweeters. Since you aren't running a sub (I don't think) I would try setting the fronts to large and setting the bass management in the receiver to send LFE to the mains. YMMV but that has worked well for me in the past with powered towers
Only issue there is you give up on a lot of what Audyssey offers in room correction. The subwoofer filter is the highest resolution of all of them and by removing the subwoofer out from the system, you are giving up a lot of room correction.

I did some more playing around last night. Part of my issue is the shape of my room. The way things are setup, the right front channel is essentially in a corner (about 4 feet from the right wall) whereas the left front channel is much further from the left wall. Also, there's a doorway to another room on that wall. So, the sub from the right channel gets overamped from corner reflection.

Because of my limitations, I tried something new. I only connected one of the towers to the LFE output, the left tower. Since that one has more room to breath, the bass wasn't amplified by the wall. This allowed me to run both towers with the volume at 12 o'clock. That gave me a sub correction value of only -5db which is in range and had both fronts detected as large by the receiver. So far, I'm liking what I'm hearing. The towers are getting to do their thing and having the internal crossovers hand off frequencies to the right places while the LFE is getting corrected properly and sent to the sub. I get good punch throughout the range without being overly boomy.

Last edited by bull3964; Today at 11:44 AM.
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post #32887 of 32888 Old Today, 09:56 AM
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Only issue there is you give up on a lot of what Audyssey offers in room correction. The subwoofer filter is the highest resolution of all of them and by removing the subwoofer out from the system, you are giving up a lot of room correction.

I did some more playing around last night. Part of my issue is the shape of my room. The way things are setup, the right front channel is essentially in a corner (about 4 feet from the left wall) whereas the left front channel is much further from the left wall. Also, there's a doorway to another room on that wall. So, the sub from the right channel gets overamped from corner reflection.

Because of my limitations, I tried something new. I only connected one of the towers to the LFE output, the left tower. Since that one has more room to breath, the bass wasn't amplified by the wall. This allowed me to run both towers with the volume at 12 o'clock. That gave me a sub correction value of only -5db which is in range and had both fronts detected as large by the receiver. So far, I'm liking what I'm hearing. The towers are getting to do their thing and having the internal crossovers hand off frequencies to the right places while the LFE is getting corrected properly and sent to the sub. I get good punch throughout the range without being overly boomy.
Very true, and as you are experiencing, rooms have a huge effect on your sound. So now that you are running 1 LFE, are your mains still set to small? and do you still have your XO at 100hz?
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post #32888 of 32888 Old Today, 11:42 AM
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Very true, and as you are experiencing, rooms have a huge effect on your sound. So now that you are running 1 LFE, are your mains still set to small? and do you still have your XO at 100hz?
Nope, with 1 LFE I was able to increase the volume of the subs in the towers to the point where they were detected as full range while still keeping the sub within reference level. That way, the LFE channel from movies is getting the full room correction and being sent to the left tower's sub while anything in the roll-off range below 120hz in the soundtracks is being sent to the speaker terminals and being handled by the internal crossovers of the towers themselves since the speakers are full range. That seems to be providing a good balance right now, no crossover is being applied to the front mains.

The only disadvantages to this setup is that I have the increased possibility of a bass dead zone due to only one sub pumping out the LFE channel (but I haven't detected one yet) and I'm not getting the higher resolution correction in the rolloff range under 120hz that's being sent to the mains from DD tracks. But, since that is in the rolloff range of Dolby Digital, it's less important and the LFE should be providing the bulk of that output (especially below 80hz).

One big advantage of having it setup this way is music. When listening to music, it's a true 2 channel full range setup with the receiver doing no crossover work at all, leaving everything up to the towers. The receiver detected the center channel as a 90hz crossover which seems to match pretty well with the 100hz crossover that Definitive recommends.

Right now I'm still using my Polk RM2300 sats (from my RM6600 system) as rear speakers and I have to say I'm pretty surprised how well they match.

Last edited by bull3964; Today at 11:45 AM.
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