Definitive Owners Thread - Page 1203 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #36061 of 36084 Old 05-26-2017, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Timothy1180 View Post
Tested it few hours ago just to make sure I wasn't wrong. Was watching tv. First take on espn.

All speakers set to 60 or 80hz. No y split to subs just lfe. Crossover over on integra set to 120. Subs were making noise as they talk. Remember I'm 15 db hot.

Than I went to bedroom setup with clr2000, bp2002tl and Yamaha 3060. All 3 speakers set to 80hz. Bass set to 80hz. I just maxed out towers gain. Which I use lfe cable to each tower. Again bass from lfe in dialogue.

Not really sure what you are doing differently than me.

Also 9060 are probably ok speakers. You could get a pair of definitive bp7001 or bp7000 that would kill hsu vtf2 and bp7000 would be comparable to vtf3. Can get those for $1500-2000. Also my bp2002tl have more output and better sounding bass than my svs pb2000.

As far as the lfe in dialogue thing I guess will have to just agree to move on. Not going to agree. We each know what we have heard. I just think you are misunderstanding the part how I run my subs hot.
Not trying to be argumentative. Just a friendly discussion. I'm not misunderstanding what you are saying at all. I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. As I said, if your speakers aren't set to full range then you are going to get voice information out of your subs. You clearly state you are crossing over you speakers at 60 or 80 Hz. That is where the voice information in your subs is coming from. It is not from the actual .1 channel as mixed by the engineer. That is the difference between our setups. I have all speakers set to full range on my Oppo to get the pure LFE signal fed to my transducer from the blu-ray player's sub pre-out. I do have my center crossed at 60 Hz and my surrounds crossed at 80 Hz on my Marantz receiver so voice information below those crossover points goes to my mains since I don't have a standalone sub. If I did have a standalone sub or if I used the AVR's sub output to feed my transducer or the LFE inputs on my BP2000s then there would be voice information in the sub channel. That does not mean it is present in the engineer's mix of the .1 channel. It means your AVR is routing it there from the other channels.

Marantz SR7010 AVR (using as pre-amp), Logitech Harmony One Remote
B&K ST1400 Series II 2-ch amp powering fronts, AV6000 Series II 6-ch amp powering center, surrounds and tactile transducer
Def Tech BP2000 fronts, Def Tech CLR2000 center, Def Tech BPX side and back surrounds
Oppo BDP-93, Apple TV 4th gen, PS4, Rotel RCL-900 Line Conditioner
Adding Atmos in ceiling speakers soon

Last edited by kdjohn3; 05-26-2017 at 02:32 PM.
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post #36062 of 36084 Old 05-26-2017, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Timothy1180 View Post
Tested it few hours ago just to make sure I wasn't wrong. Was watching tv. First take on espn.

All speakers set to 60 or 80hz. No y split to subs just lfe. Crossover over on integra set to 120. Subs were making noise as they talk. Remember I'm 15 db hot.

Than I went to bedroom setup with clr2000, bp2002tl and Yamaha 3060. All 3 speakers set to 80hz. Bass set to 80hz. I just maxed out towers gain. Which I use lfe cable to each tower. Again bass from lfe in dialogue.

Not really sure what you are doing differently than me.

Also 9060 are probably ok speakers. You could get a pair of definitive bp7001 or bp7000 that would kill hsu vtf2 and bp7000 would be comparable to vtf3. Can get those for $1500-2000. Also my bp2002tl have more output and better sounding bass than my svs pb2000.

As far as the lfe in dialogue thing I guess will have to just agree to move on. Not going to agree. We each know what we have heard. I just think you are misunderstanding the part how I run my subs hot.
As an FYI, you can only really test this with a disc and no Upmixing, otherwise the signal may have already been re-mixed in some way.

*Warning* None of my suggestions, ideas or even thoughts have any WAF, in any way!
My Build Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-gen...formation.html
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post #36063 of 36084 Old 05-26-2017, 02:27 PM
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So if I set all my speakers to large I'll only get effects bass from lfe channel?

Now I'd have to be really clever to eq the 7001 out of all the low bass. Sounds like I'm introducing some issues running them large. I'll try the test the way your stating.

I did read a article of the director of interstellar. He said he mixes lfe into dialogue to make a bigger impact in audio. So probably depends on the movie

I'll try what your talking about though.
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post #36064 of 36084 Old 05-26-2017, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Timothy1180 View Post
So if I set all my speakers to large I'll only get effects bass from lfe channel?
Yep, this is what you will find. Perhaps there are a few exceptions out there where an engineer mixes some super deep bass from some monster's voice or something like that into the .1 channel, but normal dialogue is not mixed into the LFE channel. Off the top of my head I can't think of any exceptions I've noticed, and I watched Interstellar a couple of months ago. If the engineer mixed some voices into the LFE on that then it was very subtle or was done during a scene where so much else was happening that it wasn't noticeable. (I don't own it to do another check right now. I decided I'm not buying any more discs until I get a new 4K TV and blu-ray player. I just do rentals in the mail from Netflix. I've had my eyes on a Sony 85" but probably not until next year.)

Adding: Obviously setting all speakers to large on the AVR is not desirable in 99.9999% of cases since very few have speakers capable of playing down to 15 or 20 Hz on all channels. That's why I came up with my workaround of feeding the tactile transducer via the Oppo sub pre-out with everything set to large on there while setting the center and surrounds to small and properly crossing them over to feed them signals they can handle via the AVR.

Marantz SR7010 AVR (using as pre-amp), Logitech Harmony One Remote
B&K ST1400 Series II 2-ch amp powering fronts, AV6000 Series II 6-ch amp powering center, surrounds and tactile transducer
Def Tech BP2000 fronts, Def Tech CLR2000 center, Def Tech BPX side and back surrounds
Oppo BDP-93, Apple TV 4th gen, PS4, Rotel RCL-900 Line Conditioner
Adding Atmos in ceiling speakers soon

Last edited by kdjohn3; 05-26-2017 at 03:18 PM.
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post #36065 of 36084 Old 05-26-2017, 05:20 PM
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Everything set to large and bass xover on avr at 120hz.

Still get dialogue through sub when ran hot. At least we tried. Same result for me.
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post #36066 of 36084 Old 05-26-2017, 05:42 PM
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Never mind I figured why. I didn't reconfigure the eq. When I set to large now no dialogue comes out of sub. But it kills my bass for some reason.

I'll have to run some measurements this weekend. To see why.
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post #36067 of 36084 Old 05-26-2017, 06:19 PM
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Anyone ever hear the protower 400s? I wonder how it would compare to the Bp10s? I remember reading a very favorable review when they first came out. I don't think they had a very long run at all. Wonder why?
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post #36068 of 36084 Old 05-26-2017, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by keeper View Post
Anyone ever hear the protower 400s? I wonder how it would compare to the Bp10s? I remember reading a very favorable review when they first came out. I don't think they had a very long run at all. Wonder why?
Good friends have 4 of them. Great speaker. Not bipolar and has good bass. Bp10b are still better. As a surround I'd take pro tower. I like the directional sound.
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post #36069 of 36084 Old 05-26-2017, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Timothy1180 View Post
Good friends have 4 of them. Great speaker. Not bipolar and has good bass. Bp10b are still better. As a surround I'd take pro tower. I like the directional sound.
Good to know. Thanks.
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post #36070 of 36084 Old 05-26-2017, 06:33 PM
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If you want some he's selling them. I think he wants $400 a pair though
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post #36071 of 36084 Old 05-26-2017, 06:42 PM
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If you want some he's selling them. I think he wants $400 a pair though
Thanks but I'm good. I need to get rid of some of my speakers myself.
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post #36072 of 36084 Old 05-26-2017, 07:06 PM
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He might trade you for something. Just an idea
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post #36073 of 36084 Old 05-27-2017, 04:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falconsfan71 View Post
I'm sure that's debatable and based on opinions. But just to throw an option out there...

Def Tech Towers with subs $2200

SVS Prime Towers (pr) $1000
Hsu VTF-2 MK5 (duals) $1159

DT Tower > 3-4.5" drivers
SVS Tower > 1-4.5" & 2-6.5" drivers

Those two 12" Hsu subs will kill those 10" Tower subs...

Don't forget about the center....


Debatable indeed. I thought you were talking about a DT set up that was better for that budget in which case Id prefer a pair of BP-2000TL + CLR 3000 over the 9060s

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post #36074 of 36084 Old 05-27-2017, 06:08 PM
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This is correct. Vocals are never mixed into the LFE channel. Any vocals you are hearing through subs are coming from the other channels below their crossover point.

I have a Clark Synthesis tactile transducer in my sofa. Rather than hooking it up to the sub output of my receiver I am feeding a pure LFE signal from my Oppo blu-ray player's subwoofer pre-out. On the Oppo I have all channels set to large precisely so that I get a pure LFE signal to my transducer with no voice information in the channel. The last thing I want is Darth Vader's voice rumbling in my sofa. Works like a charm. Voices are never, ever, ever mixed into the LFE channel. Trust me.

This setup does mean that I have to adjust the volume of the transducer separately via the Oppo and I can't use it with anything but blu-rays, but other than that it works well. I've actually considered typing up an engineering request for my sales guy at ListenUp in Denver to pass on to his D+M (Denon & Marantz) rep. (I'm a telecom engineer with experience writing engineering requests.) I think the ability to pass a pure LFE signal via the 2nd sub pre-out on high end AVRs and processors would be a very welcome feature for people with Clark transducers, Buttkickers, Auras or other bass shakers. The Clarks are really awesome, by the way. They really turn your furniture into another subwoofer that rumbles at precisely the right frequency. They aren't gimmicky at all. I don't have any experience with the other brands out there so I don't know how convincing they are.
John, what amp are you using to power your transducers? I've been thinking about adding a few of these but it's a little difficult. I'd have to use a wireless transmitter for the transducers as my chairs are in the middle of the room. Also, the amp that powers them would have to be close to my seating so something that is noisy would not be good.
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post #36075 of 36084 Old 05-27-2017, 07:40 PM
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John, what amp are you using to power your transducers? I've been thinking about adding a few of these but it's a little difficult. I'd have to use a wireless transmitter for the transducers as my chairs are in the middle of the room. Also, the amp that powers them would have to be close to my seating so something that is noisy would not be good.
I just have one transducer, though I have considered adding a second for a little extra impact and more even coverage. I have a B&K 2 channel amp for my fronts and a B&K AV6000 Series 2 6-channel amp for my center, side & back surrounds and tactile transducer.

B&K AV6000 pics:



You could consider picking up used Marantz MA500 or MA700 mono amps. They are small and unobtrusive. I see a number available on eBay right now. You could also check the classifieds here, Audiogon, Craigslist, etc.
MA500 is 125 watts/ch @ 8 Ohms. MA700 is 200 watts/ch @ 8 Ohms.



If you want something new and very affordable, this Audio Source 2 channel amp seems to be a very popular suggestion around here for people looking to add Atmos amplification. Should work well for transducers, too.
Audio Source AMP100VS 2 Channel Amplifier (Black)

Those are just a couple of suggestions. Any quality amp will do the job.

Edit: Actually that Audio Source amp is only 50 watts/ch. You'll probably want more than that. I'd say 100 minimum with Clark Synthesis.

I've never auditioned Buttkickers so I can't vouch for them, but they have a kit that includes a wireless transmitter and 300 watt amp.
Wireless ButtKicker® Kit

Also, you need sturdily built furniture for them to work properly. You may need to add some lumber on the bottom to tie everything together solidly. And if you are thinking about mounting them below a floor or in a platform instead of directly attached to furniture then you'll want at least two but probably four transducers and a lot of power. With multiple transducers powered by a single high power amp you'd need to do the right combination of series and parallel wiring to present the amp with a load it can handle. But we're veering way off topic for this thread. I'm sure there must be a thread on this topic here somewhere.

Marantz SR7010 AVR (using as pre-amp), Logitech Harmony One Remote
B&K ST1400 Series II 2-ch amp powering fronts, AV6000 Series II 6-ch amp powering center, surrounds and tactile transducer
Def Tech BP2000 fronts, Def Tech CLR2000 center, Def Tech BPX side and back surrounds
Oppo BDP-93, Apple TV 4th gen, PS4, Rotel RCL-900 Line Conditioner
Adding Atmos in ceiling speakers soon

Last edited by kdjohn3; 05-27-2017 at 09:05 PM.
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post #36076 of 36084 Old Yesterday, 01:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdjohn3 View Post
I just have one transducer, though I have considered adding a second for a little extra impact and more even coverage. I have a B&K 2 channel amp for my fronts and a B&K AV6000 Series 2 6-channel amp for my center, side & back surrounds and tactile transducer.

B&K AV6000 pics:



You could consider picking up used Marantz MA500 or MA700 mono amps. They are small and unobtrusive. I see a number available on eBay right now. You could also check the classifieds here, Audiogon, Craigslist, etc.
MA500 is 125 watts/ch @ 8 Ohms. MA700 is 200 watts/ch @ 8 Ohms.



If you want something new and very affordable, this Audio Source 2 channel amp seems to be a very popular suggestion around here for people looking to add Atmos amplification. Should work well for transducers, too.
Audio Source AMP100VS 2 Channel Amplifier (Black)

Those are just a couple of suggestions. Any quality amp will do the job.

Edit: Actually that Audio Source amp is only 50 watts/ch. You'll probably want more than that. I'd say 100 minimum with Clark Synthesis.

I've never auditioned Buttkickers so I can't vouch for them, but they have a kit that includes a wireless transmitter and 300 watt amp.
Wireless ButtKicker® Kit

Also, you need sturdily built furniture for them to work properly. You may need to add some lumber on the bottom to tie everything together solidly. And if you are thinking about mounting them below a floor or in a platform instead of directly attached to furniture then you'll want at least two but probably four transducers and a lot of power. With multiple transducers powered by a single high power amp you'd need to do the right combination of series and parallel wiring to present the amp with a load it can handle. But we're veering way off topic for this thread. I'm sure there must be a thread on this topic here somewhere.
Thank you for the information. Will look into some of those amps.
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Thread has gone to sleep!

What avrs are people using with their definitive speakers? What line definitive?
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Originally Posted by Timothy1180 View Post
Thread has gone to sleep!

What avrs are people using with their definitive speakers? What line definitive?


Holiday weekend big man!


I just snapped up a X7200WA for my system. Pretty stoked to get that all dialed in next week when it arrives.


On the hunt for new towers still. Going to look at some 7000s and a pair of 2000TL's next week also.




I kind of like the idea of the couch shakers. In the event the wife goes to bed before me and I need to "turn the bass down" you can still get the effect without shaking the house. Id like to, but that's something that's WAY down the line for me.
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So guys might be having new house built. Not ideal for ATMOS or even 7.1 but would like to get something like my current DT 7.2.4 setup.

Please see my post: New House Theater room suggestions
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post #36080 of 36084 Old Today, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy1180 View Post
Thread has gone to sleep!

What avrs are people using with their definitive speakers? What line definitive?


Holiday weekend big man!


I just snapped up a X7200WA for my system. Pretty stoked to get that all dialed in next week when it arrives.


On the hunt for new towers still. Going to look at some 7000s and a pair of 2000TL's next week also.




I kind of like the idea of the couch shakers. In the event the wife goes to bed before me and I need to "turn the bass down" you can still get the effect without shaking the house. Id like to, but that's something that's WAY down the line for me.
You don't mess around!!!

Must be nice to have great connections. Lol
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You don't mess around!!!

Must be nice to have great connections. Lol

Yessir. Good friend of mine came through big time.


BUT, in theory, I shouldn't need a new AVR for a looooooooong time.
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@Timothy1180 I unplugged the right port on both VTF3.5's last night. They are both at 0 Phase, Q @ 0.7, on EQ2, and switched to "Out". I haven't had time to really mess with it so not sure I can tell a difference yet. But I have a question.. Even with the sub cable in the "Sub In" or "LFE" can I switch the Crossover to "In" and set the crossover at 90hz on the back of the subs as Hsu suggest if not using AVR LFE ?


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Pioneer Elite VSX-90 7.2 * DT Studio Monitor 45 front L/R * DT ProCenter 2000 * DT ProMonitor 800 surrounds * dual Hsu VTF-3 MK5 subs * VTI RF Series 29" speaker stands * DT ProMount90 wall mounts * OSD Audio WSK-100 wireless sub kit *
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My AVR is a Pioneer Elite SC-95.

I'm not a fan of the new update for the Forums.
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post #36084 of 36084 Old Today, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Falconsfan71 View Post
@Timothy1180 I unplugged the right port on both VTF3.5's last night. They are both at 0 Phase, Q @ 0.7, on EQ2, and switched to "Out". I haven't had time to really mess with it so not sure I can tell a difference yet. But I have a question.. Even with the sub cable in the "Sub In" or "LFE" can I switch the Crossover to "In" and set the crossover at 90hz on the back of the subs as Hsu suggest if not using AVR LFE ?


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Just Flip the switch and adjust crossover to your liking. I'm sure with both ports open you have way more output from 25/80hz
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