Definitive Owners Thread - Page 1246 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #37351 of 37377 Old 10-17-2017, 01:44 PM
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I meant that maybe “Demand” will be the new name of the towers next year..?


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Maybe, ya never know.

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post #37352 of 37377 Old Yesterday, 09:05 AM
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I meant that maybe “Demand” will be the new name of the towers next year..?


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I personally would love if definitive would bring a passive tower out.I love my 9060 powered towers but a passive set would be interesting.

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post #37353 of 37377 Old Yesterday, 09:50 AM
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Definitive Owners Thread

Well.. I got the 8080’s hooked up yesterday (speaker wire only for now) and ran Audyssey through the App (the second time was better) and it had the fronts as Small at 40hz (I set the sub dial on both as close to halfway as I could). It has my center at 100hz, the sides at 150hz, and the rears at 120hz. The sub came back at -7.0 so I bumped it to -3.0. I listened to the fronts at 40, 60, and 80hz but 60hz sounded the best to me (blended with the sub better). It sounds pretty good but gonna work on it some more this weekend. I did a quick 3 seat Audyssey calibration through the AVR and checked it.. fronts were Large, center was 80hz, and sides and rears were 120hz. The MultEQ App just updated this morning so I’ll try it again this weekend. But overall I’m pretty happy with them so far. I’m getting Volume around -25 now that I was getting in the -18 to -20 volume range. They’re definitely louder and my center sounds even better. I listened to (and watched) the first few minutes of “I Am Legend” where he’s chasing the deer in the Mustang GT500 and “Wow!” I was glowing inside! Here’s my before (SM45’s on stands and Hsu sub) and the after with just the towers. The angle of the picture makes them look like they’re turned outward but they’re not.

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post #37354 of 37377 Old Yesterday, 10:08 AM
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Lol @ falcons fan listening to dangerous woman . You own it girl!

Looks nice man, I hope you’re happy with your purchase.

It may be just the way the pic is positioned but I feel like you might benefit from a little more room behind your 8080’s, let them breathe!

Then again, you might be cramped for room but imho if you can give em a little more room you’ll thank yourself


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post #37355 of 37377 Old Yesterday, 10:28 AM
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Lol @ falcons fan listening to dangerous woman . You own it girl!

Looks nice man, I hope you’re happy with your purchase.

It may be just the way the pic is positioned but I feel like you might benefit from a little more room behind your 8080’s, let them breathe!

Then again, you might be cramped for room but imho if you can give em a little more room you’ll thank yourself


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Ha! Yea, that day I took the pic I had it on Today’s Hits and of course that’s the song that had to be playing lol.

I’ll measure them tonight but I’d say there’s at least 6-8 inches between the back of the tower and the wall. You’re saying there should be more? I had them farther out, closer in, closer to the console, and even tried “toed in” and I didn’t notice any difference in sound from sitting on the sofa.


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post #37356 of 37377 Old Yesterday, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Falconsfan71 View Post
Well.. I got the 8080’s hooked up yesterday (speaker wire only for now) and ran Audyssey through the App (the second time was better) and it had the fronts as Small at 40hz (I set the sub dial on both as close to halfway as I could). It has my center at 100hz, the sides at 150hz, and the rears at 120hz. The sub came back at -7.0 so I bumped it to -3.0. I listened to the fronts at 40, 60, and 80hz but 60hz sounded the best to me (blended with the sub better). It sounds pretty good but gonna work on it some more this weekend. I did a quick 3 seat Audyssey calibration through the AVR and checked it.. fronts were Large, center was 80hz, and sides and rears were 120hz. The MultEQ App just updated this morning so I’ll try it again this weekend. But overall I’m pretty happy with them so far. I’m getting Volume around -25 now that I was getting in the -18 to -20 volume range. They’re definitely louder and my center sounds even better. I listened to (and watched) the first few minutes of “I Am Legend” where he’s chasing the deer in the Mustang GT500 and “Wow!” I was glowing inside! Here’s my before (SM45’s on stands and Hsu sub) and the after with just the towers. The angle of the picture makes them look like they’re turned outward but they’re not.

Before


After




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Very nice looking setup Falconsfan - congrats on the upgrade! One question - your setup seems squished a little towards the fireplace, not symmetrical on the wall, and the towers are very tight to the entertainment center. Sandy Gross always recommends spreading those towers as wide as possible, even more than an equilateral triangle. Have you considered moving everything left, centering your display on the wall, and spreading your towers wider from the entertainment center? You may have to relocate your shelves, but you may get a better result SQ wise.

Also, have you tried running the towers as large, with LFE to your external sub? This is how Def Tech and Sandy at GoldenEar recommend they be setup with an external sub. I know other knowledgeable people on these forums recommend running them as small with a crossover in the AVR, but I wouldn't discount what the founder of Def Tech and the creator and designer of the speakers recommends without trying it out.
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post #37357 of 37377 Old Yesterday, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by alfa1 View Post
Very nice looking setup Falconsfan - congrats on the upgrade! One question - your setup seems squished a little towards the fireplace, not symmetrical on the wall, and the towers are very tight to the entertainment center. Sandy Gross always recommends spreading those towers as wide as possible, even more than an equilateral triangle. Have you considered moving everything left, centering your display on the wall, and spreading your towers wider from the entertainment center? You may have to relocate your shelves, but you may get a better result SQ wise.

Also, have you tried running the towers as large, with LFE to your external sub? This is how Def Tech and Sandy at GoldenEar recommend they be setup with an external sub. I know other knowledgeable people on these forums recommend running them as small with a crossover in the AVR, but I wouldn't discount what the founder of Def Tech and the creator and designer of the speakers recommends without trying it out.

I have considered everything you said. I can’t move to the left anymore because my sofa can’t go any further to the left and everything is centered currently. Yes, I hate the layout and wish I had no fireplace. I have a Hsu VTF-3 MK5 sub in the right corner. I’ve changed the wireless kit to the new Outlaw OAW4 since this pic.






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Welcome to the world of Supertowers...lol
Don't get too caught up into "do everything now", you'll probably tweak for a month or so even after you think everything is right.

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post #37359 of 37377 Old Yesterday, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Falconsfan71 View Post
I have considered everything you said. I can’t move to the left anymore because my sofa can’t go any further to the left and everything is centered currently. Yes, I hate the layout and wish I had no fireplace. I have a Hsu VTF-3 MK5 sub in the right corner. I’ve changed the wireless kit to the new Outlaw OAW4 since this pic.






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I figured you had good reasons for your layout - I have a similar issue with my guest room setup. My BP7006 towers are squished close to my entertainment center because if I spread them out wider the door opening in the room would hit the left tower.


If you get a chance, I would be curious how your 8080's sound set to large with LFE to your external sub compared to small with varying crossovers set in the AVR. I looked at this awhile ago and remember reading that there are some theoretical/technical reasons to favor this setup, not merely simplicity and convenience - I believe it had to do with avoiding cascading active crossovers that could cause cancellation or amplification of certain frequencies depending on the crossover points for the powered woofers in the speakers, the external sub, and in the AVR.
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post #37360 of 37377 Old Yesterday, 12:12 PM
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I figured you had good reasons for your layout - I have a similar issue with my guest room setup. My BP7006 towers are squished close to my entertainment center because if I spread them out wider the door opening in the room would hit the left tower.


If you get a chance, I would be curious how your 8080's sound set to large with LFE to your external sub compared to small with varying crossovers set in the AVR. I looked at this awhile ago and remember reading that there are some theoretical/technical reasons to favor this setup, not merely simplicity and convenience - I believe it had to do with avoiding cascading active crossovers that could cause cancellation or amplification of certain frequencies depending on the crossover points for the powered woofers in the speakers, the external sub, and in the AVR.

I’m still learning about all that. I have a Denon X4300H with MultEQ XT32 and dual sub EQ. “If” Audyssey set them to Large are they EQ’d? If it sets them to Small and I change them to Large, what changes?


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post #37361 of 37377 Old Yesterday, 12:33 PM
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I’m still learning about all that. I have a Denon X4300H with MultEQ XT32 and dual sub EQ. “If” Audyssey set them to Large are they EQ’d? If it sets them to Small and I change them to Large, what changes?


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I have a Pioneer Elite SC-85 AVR that uses MCAAC so I am not sure how Audyssey works, hopefully someone can chime in on that. But I think generally your room correction system will still apply correction to speakers set to large in the AVR, at least MCAAC does. But if you want the subs in your towers to be EQ'd independently by your AVR than I believe you need to run your LFE connectors to the LFE inputs on your speakers, but I'm not sure where that would leave your external sub in terms of EQ, not sure it could independently correct the subs in your BP8080's AND your external sub at the same time.
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I have a Pioneer Elite SC-85 AVR that uses MCAAC so I am not sure how Audyssey works, hopefully someone can chime in on that. But I think generally your room correction system will still apply correction to speakers set to large in the AVR, at least MCAAC does. But if you want the subs in your towers to be EQ'd independently by your AVR than I believe you need to run your LFE connectors to the LFE inputs on your speakers, but I'm not sure where that would leave your external sub in terms of EQ, not sure it could independently correct the subs in your BP8080's AND your external sub at the same time.
I have an SC-95. What do you have your crossover set at? I have mine at 100Hz and my towers set to small.

Really wish I could set my channels to individual levels!
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post #37363 of 37377 Old Yesterday, 02:18 PM
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I have an SC-95. What do you have your crossover set at? I have mine at 100Hz and my towers set to small.



Really wish I could set my channels to individual levels!

That’s why I left Pioneer. That make no sense to me and I don’t know why they won’t change that.


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Is the CLR2300 an upgrade over the ProCenter 2000? If so, how? It has two 4.5” drivers vs two 5.25” in the PC2000.


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I cranked my SM 65s and SM 55s today, well -20 for me is cranking and by God was I pleased with the sound. Blown away would be more appropriate. Really impressed with this system. Also the PB-1000 is very, very impressive. It knocked my socks off as well. Wondering what a second in the system might do but one is pretty awesome.
I had on Allegiant and man did it just sound ridiculous. Crystal clear and powerful. I don't know how Def Tech does it.

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post #37366 of 37377 Old Yesterday, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Falconsfan71 View Post
I’m still learning about all that. I have a Denon X4300H with MultEQ XT32 and dual sub EQ. “If” Audyssey set them to Large are they EQ’d? If it sets them to Small and I change them to Large, what changes?


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Yes. Audyssey finds the -dB point of the speaker and the AVR sets it to that. In your case, the entire full range frequency is EQ'd.

If they get set to small with a crossover, they are EQ'd up to that frequency (at that speaker). You are safe to increase it (the lower frequencies will be relayed to the separate HSU sub which is EQ'd also...if you run the towers with LFE connection, it's essentially the same woofer playing LFE and below crossover), but decreasing it means you will be playing non EQ'd frequencies and potentially beyond the speakers capability of staying within 3dB.

I don't know what other speakers you have (center, surrounds etc) but keep playing and tweaking. Try a bunch of movies and music, preferably lossless, to get familiar and start noticing differences.

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I cranked my SM 65s and SM 55s today, well -20 for me is cranking and by God was I pleased with the sound. Blown away would be more appropriate. Really impressed with this system. Also the PB-1000 is very, very impressive. It knocked my socks off as well. Wondering what a second in the system might do but one is pretty awesome.
I had on Allegiant and man did it just sound ridiculous. Crystal clear and powerful. I don't know how Def Tech does it.

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The one thing definitive does that most others don't are the way there drivers are.They are supported at the INNER and OUTER part of there drivers.

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post #37368 of 37377 Old Yesterday, 04:58 PM
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The one thing definitive does that most others don't are the way there drivers are.They are supported at the INNER and OUTER part of there drivers.

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Wow, I did not know that. It's above my understanding but sound cool and like a good thing. They do something right because they really do design and build fantastic speakers.

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post #37369 of 37377 Old Yesterday, 05:11 PM
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Wow, I did not know that. It's above my understanding but sound cool and like a good thing. They do something right because they really do design and build fantastic speakers.

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Your response is why I think most other people dismiss definitive because they think small drivers cannot sound as good as larger ones.Another aspect is that ever since the 8000 series and on the rear drivers on there bipolar towers are 6 DB lower than the front.Making them sound more like direct radiating towers than bipolar.The older line didn't attenuate the rear from the front and the same level came out the back as well as the front.You still get the bipolar effect in the 8000 and 9000 series but the bipolar effect is much more subtle that it used to be.

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Originally Posted by Hetfieldjames View Post
I cranked my SM 65s and SM 55s today, well -20 for me is cranking and by God was I pleased with the sound. Blown away would be more appropriate. Really impressed with this system. Also the PB-1000 is very, very impressive. It knocked my socks off as well. Wondering what a second in the system might do but one is pretty awesome.
I had on Allegiant and man did it just sound ridiculous. Crystal clear and powerful. I don't know how Def Tech does it.

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And you’re talking about jumping ship? ..going to another brand? Why? You need to just stop and enjoy the system! I’m sure they’ll have something new when you’re ready to upgrade or change!


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Your response is why I think most other people dismiss definitive because they think small drivers cannot sound as good as larger ones.Another aspect is that ever since the 8000 series and on the rear drivers on there bipolar towers are 6 DB lower than the front.Making them sound more like direct radiating towers than bipolar.The older line didn't attenuate the rear from the front and the same level came out the back as well as the front.You still get the bipolar effect in the 8000 and 9000 series but the bipolar effect is much more subtle that it used to be.

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That I did hear about the forward sounding bipolar speakers. I haven't heard them but did hear about that. I really like that actually because I do not have the right room for bipolar at all at least for mains. Maybe I'll go to Best Buy to check some out. I hate wait people's time especially salespeople though. I do not want to go back to towers at all right now. There Studio monitors are perfect right now and sound absolutely ridiculous.

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And you’re talking about jumping ship? ..going to another brand? Why? You need to just stop and enjoy the system! I’m sure they’ll have something new when you’re ready to upgrade or change!


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I'm kooky and think about it all the time but problem is if I bought he expensive speakers right now my ship would, um, sink. Ha ha I can't do anything for a long time speakers wise. Other small upgrades I will do like a new HT processor and 4k Blu-Ray player. I think I'm gonna set things up to move to 4k and skip fixing what ain't broken, my speakers. Ha ha.

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post #37373 of 37377 Old Yesterday, 05:21 PM
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That I did hear about the forward sounding bipolar speakers. I haven't heard them but did hear about that. I really like that actually because I do not have the right room for bipolar at all at least for mains. Maybe I'll go to Best Buy to check some out. I hate wait people's time especially salespeople though. I do not want to go back to towers at all right now. There Studio monitors are perfect right now and sound absolutely ridiculous.

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I hear ya...I've been thinking of picking up 2 studio monitor 65's for the bedroom as they are 250 a piece at Best buy right now.

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post #37374 of 37377 Old Yesterday, 05:55 PM
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I hear ya...I've been thinking of picking up 2 studio monitor 65's for the bedroom as they are 250 a piece at Best buy right now.

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Yeah tell me about it. I wish I were putting my together right now, I'd have 5 SM 65s at that price! I didn't do too bad though, 3 SM 65s LCR and SM 55 surrounds for 1,424. All open box and scratch and dent from Crutchfield.

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Can all 9000 series owners let me know how they're liking their setups? How can you compare them to the 8000 or previous setups?

Any help is appreciated! Thanks!
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post #37376 of 37377 Old Yesterday, 11:35 PM
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Is the CLR2300 an upgrade over the ProCenter 2000? If so, how? It has two 4.5” drivers vs two 5.25” in the PC2000.


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Unfortunately, it will be hard to knows for sure without trying it, it all depends on how the powered woofer reacts to where you have the center located.
But... Basic rule of thumb for Center's is that main driver size usually matters the.most, because most of what you hear is being fired directly at you. The powered woofers tend to really come into play when the speaker is placed into a cabinet and boundary reinforcement is added to the mix.
Personally as an upgrade to the PC2000, I'd look at a CLR2002, 2000, 2500,.3000 or possibly cs8080.

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post #37377 of 37377 Old Yesterday, 11:37 PM
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This may be a little (ok very) long winded, but maybe it can help with some of our more recent discussions:

Speaker, Crossover and HT Setup Basics:

As we all know, speakers exist to reproduce an audio signal, for AVR and musical purposes, this signal can cover a frequency range of 20Hz to 20,000Hz (20KHz) in the main channels and 120Hz to 3Hz in the LFE channel, but most speakers will not be able to cleanly reproduce all of this range, most of the time they are simply not designed to do so.
This is where crossovers (and filters) come into play.

Crossover (and filter) basics:
Crossovers (and filters) are simply a way to attenuate an audio signal so that only a certain range of that signal is then distributed to the speaker (or individual driver of a speaker, when referring to a speakers internal crossovers).
While crossovers and filters perform the same basic function, their rate of attenuation makes them different.
We've all heard the saying "Crossovers aren't brick walls", filters basically are.

Crossovers:
Crossovers will have different rates of attenuation, this is known as a slope or curve because of how it looks in a visual representation, and this will quite often be referred to as the "roll off". Depending on the type of crossover, these slopes/curves will either be fixed or adjustable.

So..., let's say someone mentions a crossover having a 6db per octave roll off... What does that mean?
What they are saying is, that from the crossover frequency point, the signal will attenuate down (lessen in volume/power) 6db for every octave below the set point.
Example:
An 80Hz Crossover with a 6db per octave roll off is saying that at 80Hz you will still be hearing all of the signal, at 40Hz (one octave below 80Hz) that frequency will sound 6db quieter, it will still be playing, just 6db quieter, at 20Hz (another octave down) it will be another 6db quieter, 10Hz another 6db and so on. This is why the degree of roll off matters when fine tuning a speaker.
Filters:
Filters simply have an extremely sharp/steep roll off. (More of a brick wall)
For the most part you'll only run across LPF (LowPassFilter) for the LFE channel or Sub itself, this basically means Low CAN pass, meaning you will only hear the signal from the set point down.
You may also encounter a High Pass Filter on some Subs, the translation is the same high CAN pass, and is only on Subs with built in crossovers so that you can use the Sub itself to cross your full range signal instead of your AVR. (Usually only found on older Subs)

Crossovers and Speakers:
Most speakers will have some type of crossover built in, either passive (made up of resistors and capacitors) or electronic (DSP), because most speakers are comprised of at least 2 different types/sizes of drivers, and each of these individual drivers play certain frequencies optimally, then figuring in driver, crossover and cabinet design, each complete speaker will play in a certain frequency range, and will often have what is known as natural roll off, where a speaker does its own low frequency attenuation without the help of an external crossover. (This is most often to protect the speaker from damage caused by trying to get it to play a frequency it just can't)

Crossovers and your AVR/Processor:
The crossover in your AVR is an adjustable electronic crossover, it not only attenuates the signal, it can mix/direct the attenuated portion of the signal into a different channel (LFE), where you should have speakers(Sub) more capable of reproducing those frequencies accurately.
In most cases you'll find two types of crossover options in an AVR, a Global crossover, meaning that there is only one crossover setting for ALL the non-LFE channels, and individual crossovers, allowing you to set separate crossovers for each individual channel/position.

Speaker, AVR & HT setup:
One thing to realise is that all of this falls in the category of Bass Management, which is no more than a shortened way of saying, what speakers do I want to play the bass.
And because of the nature of Bass sound waves, Bass Management is not only speaker dependant, but extremely room dependant, which in turn makes it very individual for each different space/room. This is why room correcting can be a good thing, it measures the speakers actual response in the room, it doesn't just guess according to a speakers spec.
In the AVR, setting a speaker to Large, simply means that it is sent the entire Full Range signal without a crossover applied, setting a speaker too small, means the selected crossover will be applied to that speaker and the portion of the signal that has been attenuated out will be mixed into the LFE output.

First an understanding of why we use Bass Management and how it came about.
Surround Sound came about as an extension of stereo sound, which as some will remember, was supposed to mean two big full range towers for L/R in your room somewhere. In the earliest incarnation of Surround Sound, this still worked just fine, there was no LFE channel and the Surround and Center channels were nothing more than matrixed portions of the Full Range stereo signal being sent to the L/R.
But then came discrete channels capable of the full 20Hz to 20KHz signal and the separate LFE channel, capable of a 120-3Hz signal, but it still wasn't that bad because mixers hadn't yet started to place dynamic full range sounds into the Center and Surrounds, but once they did, the realization came about that the only way to truly recreate the theatre experience was to have Full Range speakers in all the positions, and most people were unable or unwilling to do this.
This is where Dr. Floyd Toole and the Harmon Group came into play. They started researching people's reaction to sound using study groups and trained listeners, within this research they realised that some of the people started to be unable to localize a sound (determine its exact origin in the room) once it started to dip below 120Hz, and almost everyone lost this localization by 80Hz. Therefore it was determined that a good compromise to using Full Range speakers was to Bass Manage those signals and mix the lower frequency portion of a sound into the LFE channel output where it could be properly reproduced by a purpose built Subwoofer, with minimal or no loss to the experience, since most people couldn't determine where that portion of the sound was coming from anyway, In turn opening up a better experience and more options for speakers, for the general public and enthusiast.

Ok, back to setup... Because Bass Management is so speaker and room dependant the general rule of thumb is set the crossovers to 80Hz (where most people can't tell the difference) and you're done. But this is not an actual rule, and is normally recommended because it's simple and applies to most systems. (The only time you shouldn't do this is if your speakers won't actually play clean down to 80Hz, then it should be set to they're capability)
But there is absolutely no reason you can't determine the actual response characteristics of your individual speakers, in your room, (either by ear or measurement) and simply set the crossover(s) accordingly. Which includes setting them to Large and playing the Full Range signal.

Finally, speaking of Large and playing a speaker Full Range, there are two basic scenarios where this would be appropriate and completely acceptable if "you" choose to do so.
1. The speaker in that position can truly reproduce the entire 20Hz to 20KHz range
2. The speaker in that position has a clean enough natural roll off at the bottom, that you don't really mind completely losing that portion of the sound.
(Example: even in today's best recordings, you still only get minimal examples of sound below 30Hz in any of the channels besides LFE, so if your speakers play clean down around 35-40Hz, and they have a smooth natural roll off below that, there's no reason you can't set them as Large if you think it sounds better.)

That's basically it, sorry this was so long, hope it helps to explain some of the recent dialogue and recommendations, and gives those who need it a better understanding of what, when, and why.

And as always, it still boils down to how much time and effort "you".want to put into your setup, and what sounds and works best for "you", in "your" space.

*Warning* None of my suggestions, ideas or even thoughts have any WAF, in any way!
My Build Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-gen...formation.html

Last edited by ALtlOff; Today at 02:35 AM.
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