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post #26641 of 31442 Old 05-10-2012, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by ferrari fan View Post

Hi Joe,
Thank you for the input on my posting. I'm ending up getting the ProMonitor 1000's for the four speakers, with the ProCenter 1000 for the center. By the way, I'm getting the speakers, minus the sub as I already had it, from a seller here on AVS Forums. The sub is a BIC F12.

What setting would you recommend for the speakers ? 80 Hz ? Sub at 120 Hz ? I'll let my Pioneer VSX 1014TX do the initial surround set up using it's MACC system at first. I can't recall if it does let me set speaker Hz or only small / large as it's been a while since I've set up speakers on this reciever.

Thanks for any help and suggestions.

Hello Ferrari, I always suggest starting with the crossover at 80. After all, that became the de facto pick for a lot of good reasons. Bass frequencies are pretty omni-directional below that frequency, and localizing the sub becomes easier as you go up from that frequency. Having said that, it also always makes sense to play around a bit, and see whether the sound in your room gets better, or worse, depending on a crossover change. It's pretty easy to try 60 vs 80 and see if things sound better, or more muddy, etc. Once you have that down, if 80 was better, go up and try 100. Obviously if 60 was better, leave it there. I usually don't recommend much below 60 though. You have a good sub for a reason, so let it do the work it's meant for.
Regarding the sub's crossover, if you are using your receiver's crossover, you don't need to also use the sub. So I recommend you turn that as high as it will go, to get it out of the way. Sorry that I am not familiar with your sub. I hope that helps - best, Joe
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post #26642 of 31442 Old 05-10-2012, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by yosh7 View Post

What an awesome idea. There needs to be a way to upgrade our speakers - visually and acoustically - this seems like it would be a great way to add revenue for Definitive. There could be a new MTV show called "Pimp my Speakers." Color endcap choices again, multiple color sock choices, exposed drivers, clear cabinets that show the crossovers and internals, digital sub-volume gains with remotes, upgradable amps, detachable power cords and on and on and on. There could be a "base" value model that could be upgraded with mods over time.

Seriously, this IS a great idea. I'm sure many of us would gladly update crossovers or drivers at some point.

Hello Yosh, I like it... with spinning hubcap too, so that when you play around with speaker placement, you have a truly pimped-out ride...
Seriously, we haven't considered this for several reasons. First, some folks aren't as handy as others, and we would likely wind up with some happy customers... and a few really unhappy ones...If you don't get the drivers seated right, and there is an air leak, deep bass response is impossible. You can make a $2,000 pair of speakers sound like a $300 pair pretty fast.
The more important issue is that crossover development is always done with an eye toward the total system response. The engineers aren't just designing based on the particular drivers involved, but also on how those drivers react in a very specific cabinet size. Change the cabinet size, and the total system response changes. So we would need to have custom kits for each specific older speaker, and it would become a parts stocking nightmare. Our customer service group would need to expand fast. Of course, the other major speaker brands don't offer this for the same reasons we don't.
BTW - Chet and Adam need more help in customer service as it is. If you know of a speaker savvy person who lives in the Baltimore area who wants to work here, holler! Best regards, Joe
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post #26643 of 31442 Old 05-10-2012, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by otk View Post

they could upgrade by going back to the old original Vifa drivers

Aww... be nice...
Actually, the BP 10, 20 and 2000 all used Vifa originally, but not the BP 7000. Best, Joe
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post #26644 of 31442 Old 05-10-2012, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by eshep3 View Post

Everything I read says that in-walls should have enclosures. Most of the deftech's do, but not the BP/As. Is the enclosure not as necessary for surrounds?

Hi Eshep,
Back boxes can help, for sure, and our Reference speakers have them as an integrated part of the package. If you use a generic back box though, the cabinet size hasn't been optimized for the specific drivers involved, and the results can be unpredictable. See my response to Yosh a couple of posts up from here. Thanks - best, Joe
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post #26645 of 31442 Old 05-10-2012, 07:00 AM
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Great info Joe, that all makes sense. We sometimes are like mad scientists and want to "Frankenstein" our speakers. If l lived near Baltimore, my resume would be on it's way. I live near Cleveland. You know, the city who's football team you stole and turned into a perennial contendor. What are your thoughts on Audyssey and other such room correction software, especially with bipolars and powered towers? I've had good results with xt32 but some other seem to have issues.

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post #26646 of 31442 Old 05-10-2012, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g_bartman View Post

Great info Joe, that all makes sense. We sometimes are like mad scientists and want to "Frankenstein" our speakers. If l lived near Baltimore, my resume would be on it's way. I live near Cleveland. You know, the city who's football team you stole and turned into a perennial contendor. What are your thoughts on Audyssey and other such room correction software, especially with bipolars and powered towers? I've had good results with xt32 but some other seem to have issues.

I too would like clarification on this...I own a vsx-31 elite reciever with MCACC and it never really works for my 8060 system...usually run them with no EQ and just set the distance.

Doing what I do best...LIVIN!
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post #26647 of 31442 Old 05-10-2012, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe@Definitive View Post

Aww... be nice...
Actually, the BP 10, 20 and 2000 all used Vifa originally, but not the BP 7000. Best, Joe

i know



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post #26648 of 31442 Old 05-10-2012, 08:08 AM
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Hey folks, I created a new thread with the same question, but thought I would also post here since I'm looking at Def Techs for my new system:

We are trying to install either a 5.1 or 7.1 system in our family room. In the order of most use, it will be HDTV, gaming, and movies. Very little to no music listening. It is a larger room with the main seating about 17ft from the display and about 16ft. wide.
I plan on creating a dedicated basement space in the future for movies.

I am waiting for a quote, but here is what our A/V guy is recommending based on our $2k budget, all Def Tech:
Fronts - StudioMonitor 45
Center - ProCenter 2000
Surrounds - UIW 63/A in-ceiling.
Fed by my existing Denon 3808 AVR.

The layout isn't real conducive to speakers on the sidewalls, but we could make it happen if the quality is worth it.

How does this look?
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post #26649 of 31442 Old 05-10-2012, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunspot View Post

Hey folks, I created a new thread with the same question, but thought I would also post here since I'm looking at Def Techs for my new system:

We are trying to install either a 5.1 or 7.1 system in our family room. In the order of most use, it will be HDTV, gaming, and movies. Very little to no music listening. It is a larger room with the main seating about 17ft from the display and about 16ft. wide.
I plan on creating a dedicated basement space in the future for movies.

I am waiting for a quote, but here is what our A/V guy is recommending based on our $2k budget, all Def Tech:
Fronts - StudioMonitor 45
Center - ProCenter 2000
Surrounds - UIW 63/A in-ceiling.
Fed by my existing Denon 3808 AVR.

The layout isn't real conducive to speakers on the sidewalls, but we could make it happen if the quality is worth it.

How does this look?

Sounds like a nice setup (I really nice the new SM's), but anyway to use a 45 for the center? To me, I think the 45's on side walls would be best. They are pretty small. I just love matching speakers all the way around especially if you like multi channel music, etc
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post #26650 of 31442 Old 05-10-2012, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post

I just love matching speakers all the way around especially if you like multi channel music, etc

True dat. (6 BP8s)

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post #26651 of 31442 Old 05-10-2012, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by hakstone View Post

True dat. (6 BP8s)

is that what you have ?

All this noise about noise.
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post #26652 of 31442 Old 05-10-2012, 10:39 AM
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just checked your profile hakstone

nice system. how is everything set up as far as the speakers ?

All this noise about noise.
♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫
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post #26653 of 31442 Old 05-10-2012, 10:41 AM
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Welp, couldnt find a place to listen to, reviews on them from actual users, or much more than the Def Tech specs, pics and video, but I went ahead and ordered three Mythos XTR-50's. Found a great deal on them brand new so I jumped. Ill be using a Pioneer VSX-1022 to test them out with a Def Tech ProSub 1000 and no rears yet. Theyll be here Monday and Ill post back when Ive had a chance to play with them a bit.

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post #26654 of 31442 Old 05-10-2012, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ben_r_ View Post

Welp, couldnt find a place to listen to, reviews on them from actual users, or much more than the Def Tech specs, pics and video, but I went ahead and ordered three Mythos XTR-50's. Found a great deal on them brand new so I jumped. Ill be using a Pioneer VSX-1022 to test them out with a Def Tech ProSub 1000 and no rears yet. Theyll be here Monday and Ill post back when Ive had a chance to play with them a bit.

Cool, take some pics!
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post #26655 of 31442 Old 05-11-2012, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by otk View Post

i know



Hi OTK, that coffee-drinkin', Sun Times readin' icon cracked me up. Simple minds are easily pleased...
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post #26656 of 31442 Old 05-11-2012, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

I too would like clarification on this...I own a vsx-31 elite reciever with MCACC and it never really works for my 8060 system...usually run them with no EQ and just set the distance.

Hello Josh and G,
This is a good question, and I am afraid it has no simple answer. I think the room EQ solution software is a fascinating attempt - often successful - at helping overcome one of the system's biggest limitations, the room. I used to marvel at how great speakers could sound "not so great" sometimes, until I started learning about room acoustics. But some early versions of those software solutions were unreliable at best. Years ago I heard a representative from THX state in plain English that the EQ solutions of that era were "No good - as in, run them 10 times, and you'll get 10 different results". The software has gotten much better lately, and is not junk now.
But I suggest, as with other audio items (speaker and sub placement, crossover and phase settings etc.) that experimentation is the key. If you try it, and get great results, with things sounding better - keep it. If as Josh says, you try it and it makes things sound worse in your room, with your gear - then ditch it. Regarding bass frequencies especially, simple physics tells us that if you try to EQ over too broad an area, you'll struggle. Room interaction anomalies can vary widely over just a few feet. Asking EQ to make things sound good for everyone in the room is asking a lot. One analogy is the auto-focus feature on a camera. Often, they give great results - but sometimes they get fooled, and you can do better by focusing it yourself. My guess is that such software will continue to improve as more information can be loaded on to chips, and as the software vendors get better at understanding how to improve their stuff. I hope this helps - best, Joe
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post #26657 of 31442 Old 05-11-2012, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe@Definitive View Post

Hello Josh and G,
This is a good question, and I am afraid it has no simple answer. I think the room EQ solution software is a fascinating attempt - often successful - at helping overcome one of the system's biggest limitations, the room. I used to marvel at how great speakers could sound "not so great" sometimes, until I started learning about room acoustics. But some early versions of those software solutions were unreliable at best. Years ago I heard a representative from THX state in plain English that the EQ solutions of that era were "No good - as in, run them 10 times, and you'll get 10 different results". The software has gotten much better lately, and is not junk now.
But I suggest, as with other audio items (speaker and sub placement, crossover and phase settings etc.) that experimentation is the key. If you try it, and get great results, with things sounding better - keep it. If as Josh says, you try it and it makes things sound worse in your room, with your gear - then ditch it. Regarding bass frequencies especially, simple physics tells us that if you try to EQ over too broad an area, you'll struggle. Room interaction anomalies can vary widely over just a few feet. Asking EQ to make things sound good for everyone in the room is asking a lot. One analogy is the auto-focus feature on a camera. Often, they give great results - but sometimes they get fooled, and you can do better by focusing it yourself. My guess is that such software will continue to improve as more information can be loaded on to chips, and as the software vendors get better at understanding how to improve their stuff. I hope this helps - best, Joe

yes thank you...im still messing around with my settings and last night while tweaking(this is tedious but alot of fun...lol)..I think I've got my speakers almost perfect...music especially has a much more elicate and wonderful sound than before...its seems that tweaking and EQ is at the very heart of making any system sound its best....

Doing what I do best...LIVIN!
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post #26658 of 31442 Old 05-11-2012, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

yes thank you...im still messing around with my settings and last night while tweaking(this is tedious but alot of fun...lol)..I think I've got my speakers almost perfect...music especially has a much more elicate and wonderful sound than before...its seems that tweaking and EQ is at the very heart of making any system sound its best....

Make sure you document your settings and never change the environment again
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post #26659 of 31442 Old 05-11-2012, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by g_bartman View Post

Great info Joe, that all makes sense. We sometimes are like mad scientists and want to "Frankenstein" our speakers. If l lived near Baltimore, my resume would be on it's way. I live near Cleveland. You know, the city who's football team you stole and turned into a perennial contendor. What are your thoughts on Audyssey and other such room correction software, especially with bipolars and powered towers? I've had good results with xt32 but some other seem to have issues.

Running BP30's/CLR2000/BPVX/PF15 here.

I've used Yamaha's room correction, Pioneer's MCACC, and Audessey on my Denon.

I was never happy with what I go out of Yamaha or Pioneer, but have loved the Audessey correction results from my Denon.

I think the reason for mixed responses on these technologies is that the effectiveness is completely dependent on speaker placement and room issues.
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post #26660 of 31442 Old 05-11-2012, 09:26 PM
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So i jumped on a pair of SM55. Brought them home, had a small audition for about 30 minutes. Early impressions?

Pretty incredible. They have a forward sound vs the LSI9s (which are very laid back, dark) but they are NOT fatiguing at all. Bass suprisingly doesnt distort at higher volumes, they completely stay coherent along with the rest of the freq. spectrum. Dreams by Fleetwood Mac sounded incredible cranked up.

Ill have to break them in so im gonna leave them running for the next two days and start some serious listening.

Unless the break-in period is less than 50 hours... Joe?

Unloading in the garage:
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post #26661 of 31442 Old 05-12-2012, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunspot View Post

Hey folks, I created a new thread with the same question, but thought I would also post here since I'm looking at Def Techs for my new system:

We are trying to install either a 5.1 or 7.1 system in our family room. In the order of most use, it will be HDTV, gaming, and movies. Very little to no music listening. It is a larger room with the main seating about 17ft from the display and about 16ft. wide.
I plan on creating a dedicated basement space in the future for movies.

I am waiting for a quote, but here is what our A/V guy is recommending based on our $2k budget, all Def Tech:
Fronts - StudioMonitor 45
Center - ProCenter 2000
Surrounds - UIW 63/A in-ceiling.
Fed by my existing Denon 3808 AVR.

The layout isn't real conducive to speakers on the sidewalls, but we could make it happen if the quality is worth it.

How does this look?


IMHO, you can do much better than that for your $2000 budget, if you buy used. Check out A-gon and look for deals on Definitive speakers. You have a big room and set way back (17ft?) from the speakers. No bookshelves from any manufacture are going to fill that room up. You have a really nice receiver, so keep that. I would be on the lookout for a pair of BP-30's or BP-20's, which are the same as the newer BP-7000 top of the line flagship models, only difference is they do not have powered subs built in. If you can't find a pair of those used, I recommend your next best option is the BP-10b's, which you can probably find for under $700.00 if you look around. For the center channel, look for a C/L/R-2000 used, they are on ebay every day (along with the BP-10b), those go for around $250.00 and this center speaker matches the BP-10b's. As far as surrounds go, look on ebay as they have lots of good deals on both new and used inwalls. I don't know much about the Definitive Technology inwalls, but I recommend looking for the ones with 6.5 inch drivers. You could get all of this for well under a grand, and still have plenty of cash left over for a sub. I would bet my life that this setup would be one of the best sounding ht rooms you will ever hear. The original plan that you had laid out, will not please you, especially if you listen from 17ft back.
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post #26662 of 31442 Old 05-12-2012, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coN83 View Post

So i jumped on a pair of SM55. Brought them home, had a small audition for about 30 minutes. Early impressions?

Pretty incredible. They have a forward sound vs the LSI9s (which are very laid back, dark) but they are NOT fatiguing at all. Bass suprisingly doesnt distort at higher volumes, they completely stay coherent along with the rest of the freq. spectrum. Dreams by Fleetwood Mac sounded incredible cranked up.

Ill have to break them in so im gonna leave them running for the next two days and start some serious listening.

Unless the break-in period is less than 50 hours... Joe?

Unloading in the garage:

Cool, do you have any pics? Are they on stands?
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post #26663 of 31442 Old 05-12-2012, 07:48 AM
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Just thinking if Dolby Pro Logic IIz get more mainstream and I buy into it, would it be best to use ceiling speakers since the bipolar speakers needs more more from the back wall?
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post #26664 of 31442 Old 05-12-2012, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post


IMHO, you can do much better than that for your $2000 budget, if you buy used. Check out A-gon and look for deals on Definitive speakers. You have a big room and set way back (17ft?) from the speakers. No bookshelves from any manufacture are going to fill that room up. You have a really nice receiver, so keep that. I would be on the lookout for a pair of BP-30's or BP-20's, which are the same as the newer BP-7000 top of the line flagship models, only difference is they do not have powered subs built in. If you can't find a pair of those used, I recommend your next best option is the BP-10b's, which you can probably find for under $700.00 if you look around. For the center channel, look for a C/L/R-2000 used, they are on ebay every day (along with the BP-10b), those go for around $250.00 and this center speaker matches the BP-10b's. As far as surrounds go, look on ebay as they have lots of good deals on both new and used inwalls. I don't know much about the Definitive Technology inwalls, but I recommend looking for the ones with 6.5 inch drivers. You could get all of this for well under a grand, and still have plenty of cash left over for a sub. I would bet my life that this setup would be one of the best sounding ht rooms you will ever hear. The original plan that you had laid out, will not please you, especially if you listen from 17ft back.

+1 Excellent advice. My system was put together by buying used and refurbished. Excellent bang for the buck. Marty is right in that you will not fill your room with that set up and be happy. Def Tech has great service so don't worry about buying used.
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post #26665 of 31442 Old 05-12-2012, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

IMHO, you can do much better than that for your $2000 budget, if you buy used. Check out A-gon and look for deals on Definitive speakers. You have a big room and set way back (17ft?) from the speakers. No bookshelves from any manufacture are going to fill that room up. You have a really nice receiver, so keep that. I would be on the lookout for a pair of BP-30's or BP-20's, which are the same as the newer BP-7000 top of the line flagship models, only difference is they do not have powered subs built in. If you can't find a pair of those used, I recommend your next best option is the BP-10b's, which you can probably find for under $700.00 if you look around. For the center channel, look for a C/L/R-2000 used, they are on ebay every day (along with the BP-10b), those go for around $250.00 and this center speaker matches the BP-10b's. As far as surrounds go, look on ebay as they have lots of good deals on both new and used inwalls. I don't know much about the Definitive Technology inwalls, but I recommend looking for the ones with 6.5 inch drivers. You could get all of this for well under a grand, and still have plenty of cash left over for a sub. I would bet my life that this setup would be one of the best sounding ht rooms you will ever hear. The original plan that you had laid out, will not please you, especially if you listen from 17ft back.

Thanks for the advice Marty. I can't believe I left the sub out of that list! He is recommending the Supercube 2000. Keep in mind I still don't have a quote. For all I know it will come in well under 2k. That was just what I gave him to work with. We don't have room for floor standing speakers in this location. If we did I would just use my Klipsch RF3 IIs and SVS sub.
I'm concerned with speakers not filling the room, but if that is the case then I will just have him take the speakers back and I will get something else. Except for the in-ceilings. That would be a hassle.

And again, we won't listen at reference level often with 2 young kids in the house. Not until the dedicated theater is done anyway

Do these fact change anything in your opinion?
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post #26666 of 31442 Old 05-12-2012, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by sunspot View Post

Thanks for the advice Marty. I can't believe I left the sub out of that list! He is recommending the Supercube 2000. Keep in mind I still don't have a quote. For all I know it will come in well under 2k. That was just what I gave him to work with. We don't have room for floor standing speakers in this location. If we did I would just use my Klipsch RF3 IIs and SVS sub.
I'm concerned with speakers not filling the room, but if that is the case then I will just have him take the speakers back and I will get something else. Except for the in-ceilings. That would be a hassle.

And again, we won't listen at reference level often with 2 young kids in the house. Not until the dedicated theater is done anyway

Do these fact change anything in your opinion?

I think you'll be ok, it'll be way better then tv speakes lol Doesn't sounds like you want to piss of your neighbors else you would be going with the SM65 lol. I'd probably get a little bigger sub though, atleast a 4000
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post #26667 of 31442 Old 05-12-2012, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

IMHO, you can do much better than that for your $2000 budget, if you buy used. Check out A-gon and look for deals on Definitive speakers. You have a big room and set way back (17ft?) from the speakers. No bookshelves from any manufacture are going to fill that room up. You have a really nice receiver, so keep that. I would be on the lookout for a pair of BP-30's or BP-20's, which are the same as the newer BP-7000 top of the line flagship models, only difference is they do not have powered subs built in. If you can't find a pair of those used, I recommend your next best option is the BP-10b's, which you can probably find for under $700.00 if you look around. For the center channel, look for a C/L/R-2000 used, they are on ebay every day (along with the BP-10b), those go for around $250.00 and this center speaker matches the BP-10b's. As far as surrounds go, look on ebay as they have lots of good deals on both new and used inwalls. I don't know much about the Definitive Technology inwalls, but I recommend looking for the ones with 6.5 inch drivers. You could get all of this for well under a grand, and still have plenty of cash left over for a sub. I would bet my life that this setup would be one of the best sounding ht rooms you will ever hear. The original plan that you had laid out, will not please you, especially if you listen from 17ft back.

Im selling a set of BP30's
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post #26668 of 31442 Old 05-12-2012, 04:59 PM
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Just got a pair of Bp-8020st's to go along with procenter 1000 and pro monitor 800 for rears . I'm sure this is mentioned somewhere in the 1800 page thread , but I'm wondering what the consensus is on speaker level or line level inputs on the subs . Also has anyone used audyssey with the 8020? And if they did, dod you use line level or just full range . Thanks is advance
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post #26669 of 31442 Old 05-12-2012, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by steeletool View Post

Just got a pair of Bp-8020st's to go along with procenter 1000 and pro monitor 800 for rears . I'm sure this is mentioned somewhere in the 1800 page thread , but I'm wondering what the consensus is on speaker level or line level inputs on the subs . Also has anyone used audyssey with the 8020? And if they did, dod you use line level or just full range . Thanks is advance

Consensus is speaker level but some like line level as well. Speaker level will let the internal crossovers do what they were designed to do. I run plain speaker wire to my BP7001's. Audyssey crosses the 7001's at 40hz for me. I am also running two 12" Rythmik subs in addition to the Def Techs.
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post #26670 of 31442 Old 05-12-2012, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by steeletool View Post

Just got a pair of Bp-8020st's to go along with procenter 1000 and pro monitor 800 for rears . I'm sure this is mentioned somewhere in the 1800 page thread , but I'm wondering what the consensus is on speaker level or line level inputs on the subs . Also has anyone used audyssey with the 8020? And if they did, dod you use line level or just full range . Thanks is advance

The bass seems exactly the same with my BP7000SC, so unless you have some kinda special setup, speaker wire will be fine and less of a mess
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