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post #3961 of 3981 Old 10-06-2014, 05:13 PM
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I owned a pair of Bic PL26. Identical to the FH6-LCR except the PL26 has a nicer cabinet. I dont listen at reference but the 170 sounds a hell of a lot better.
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post #3962 of 3981 Old 10-06-2014, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
I owned a pair of Bic PL26. Identical to the FH6-LCR except the PL26 has a nicer cabinet. I dont listen at reference but the 170 sounds a hell of a lot better.
I don't know, I didn't hear it that way. Maybe there is something I'm doing wrong but I can't imagine what. When I turned up the 170s they sounded great but then I keep expecting it to clip. My AVR goes to 16db and I cannot get over -8. I know that number is relative but I would think I have ALOT of headroom, not clipping at just over halfway.

Receiver: Yamaha RX-A2030
LCR: Klipsch RB-81 II C: Klipsch RC-62 II
SS: Klipsch icon KB-15 RS: Bic Acoustech PL-66 2 Polk OWM-3
LFE: 2 PSA XV-15
Source: PC, Directv AC: Furman M8-Dx Display: Viewsonic PJD7820HD, Silver Ticket HDTV 16:9 120" Fixed Frame Projector Screen
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post #3963 of 3981 Old 10-06-2014, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jas wats View Post
No, I wasn't aware the sensitivity was "huge". Makes sense. The idea though was not for more volume, just similar volume with better quality, especially mid bass. My subs will go up to 200hz easily, but is very directional. I was hoping the better design would give me more of that 80-120hz(guessing) or so region I'm missing out on with the bics. I am thoroughly happy with their volume. So when I stated "improvement", I meant in quality, not output. But I did not expect to have to give up so much in volume as a compromise. I do appreciate you answering my questions, David.

It's my pleasure.


I certainly understand your intentions, but even similar volume levels will not be achievable. You are in a rather difficult predicament - if you are looking for similar volume levels in your system (106dB from each speaker at 10.5 feet back) while using your current receiver, you are going to have to spend considerably more $$$. Take a look at high-efficiency speakers from JTR and Klipsch.


One of the ways a loudspeaker achieves such high efficiency is by compromising in the frequency region you are specifically looking to improve. Google Hoffman's Iron Laws of Speaker Design. You basically have 2 choices, if you want improvements in this frequency range, you will have to make significant compromises with regard to overall volume levels in your system, or - you will need to go with a high-efficiency loudspeaker that uses a much larger speaker cabinet compared to your BIC's.


Here is a link to a speaker that I believe will give you what you are looking for: http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-212ht/

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post #3964 of 3981 Old 10-06-2014, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jas wats View Post
I don't know, I didn't hear it that way. Maybe there is something I'm doing wrong but I can't imagine what. When I turned up the 170s they sounded great but then I keep expecting it to clip. My AVR goes to 16db and I cannot get over -8. I know that number is relative but I would think I have ALOT of headroom, not clipping at just over halfway.

Volume level position on a receiver has no relation to how much power the receiver is or is not producing when comparing one speaker to another. It sounds like at -8dB, you are demanding more wattage from your receiver than it can reproduce. In addition, running YPAO might make this significantly worse if it is applying any boost in any frequency range. My recommendation is to completely turn off YPAO and then check.


Having said that, this is somewhat moot though as you will never achieve the volume levels you desire with this combination of speakers and receiver.


Just like you can purchase a car built for speed, or for fuel efficiency, or for lugging around a family or for off-roading, loudspeakers are also designed for different goals.

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post #3965 of 3981 Old 10-06-2014, 06:05 PM
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It's my pleasure.


I certainly understand your intentions, but even similar volume levels will not be achievable. You are in a rather difficult predicament - if you are looking for similar volume levels in your system (106dB from each speaker at 10.5 feet back) while using your current receiver, you are going to have to spend considerably more $$$. Take a look at high-efficiency speakers from JTR and Klipsch.


One of the ways a loudspeaker achieves such high efficiency is by compromising in the frequency region you are specifically looking to improve. Google Hoffman's Iron Laws of Speaker Design. You basically have 2 choices, if you want improvements in this frequency range, you will have to make significant compromises with regard to overall volume levels in your system, or - you will need to go with a high-efficiency loudspeaker that uses a much larger speaker cabinet compared to your BIC's.


Here is a link to a speaker that I believe will give you what you are looking for: http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-212ht/
"Here is a link to a speaker that I believe will give you what you are looking for: http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-212ht/"

Lol! Cmon, David. I hope that was a joke. Are you trying to tell me there are no quality speakers out there that play from 80hz up (not 60) at around 90-95db sensitivity,(not 101) and will output about 100-105db, (not 134) for under 3000?!? Just using an extreme example to make a point, right?

Receiver: Yamaha RX-A2030
LCR: Klipsch RB-81 II C: Klipsch RC-62 II
SS: Klipsch icon KB-15 RS: Bic Acoustech PL-66 2 Polk OWM-3
LFE: 2 PSA XV-15
Source: PC, Directv AC: Furman M8-Dx Display: Viewsonic PJD7820HD, Silver Ticket HDTV 16:9 120" Fixed Frame Projector Screen
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post #3966 of 3981 Old 10-06-2014, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jas wats View Post
I don't know, I didn't hear it that way. Maybe there is something I'm doing wrong but I can't imagine what. When I turned up the 170s they sounded great but then I keep expecting it to clip. My AVR goes to 16db and I cannot get over -8. I know that number is relative but I would think I have ALOT of headroom, not clipping at just over halfway.
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Originally Posted by jas wats View Post
"Here is a link to a speaker that I believe will give you what you are looking for: http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-212ht/"

Lol! Cmon, David. I hope that was a joke. Are you trying to tell me there are no quality speakers out there that play from 80hz up (not 60) at around 90-95db sensitivity,(not 101) and will output about 100-105db, (not 134) for under 3000?!? Just using an extreme example to make a point, right?

No Jas, I am certainly not joking. I am simply trying to assist you.


There is a tremendous variance in the requirements you just posted. I strongly suggest you narrow these down before your next speaker purchase.


If you are looking for a speaker that will reach 100dB at 10.5 feet back with your receiver, our CMT-340SE will work for you. If you want to reach 105dB cleanly without clipping your receiver, you will need a speaker with at least 94dB sensitivity, and most speakers with this high of an efficiency rating will have somewhat compromised performance at 80Hz, unless you go with something quite large. So, my recommendation is to either give our 340's a try or look for a well reviewed loudspeaker with a larger volume cabinet than your BIC's with at least 94dB sensitivity (that is documented). Please understand that while it might seem trivial to you between a speaker reaching 100 - 105dB, reaching 105dB will require approximately 4 times as much wattage as reaching 100dB.


Not to confuse matters even more, but you must also determine if you are looking for "peaks" of 100-105dB or if this level is for continuous playback. If continuous, you will need to account for at least 10 of additional headroom.

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post #3967 of 3981 Old 10-06-2014, 07:08 PM
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Great sound at reference level isnt cheap. A preamp would also be helpful. Then you would have more power and not be limited to high sensitivity speakers.
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post #3968 of 3981 Old 10-06-2014, 07:15 PM
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I don't know how people listen at 80 db or higher. I could never tolerate it, especially when listening to music at home

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post #3969 of 3981 Old 10-06-2014, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Ascend View Post
No Jas, I am certainly not joking. I am simply trying to assist you.


There is a tremendous variance in the requirements you just posted. I strongly suggest you narrow these down before your next speaker purchase.


If you are looking for a speaker that will reach 100dB at 10.5 feet back with your receiver, our CMT-340SE will work for you. If you want to reach 105dB cleanly without clipping your receiver, you will need a speaker with at least 94dB sensitivity, and most speakers with this high of an efficiency rating will have somewhat compromised performance at 80Hz, unless you go with something quite large. So, my recommendation is to either give our 340's a try or look for a well reviewed loudspeaker with a larger volume cabinet than your BIC's with at least 94dB sensitivity (that is documented). Please understand that while it might seem trivial to you between a speaker reaching 100 - 105dB, reaching 105dB will require approximately 4 times as much wattage as reaching 100dB.


Not to confuse matters even more, but you must also determine if you are looking for "peaks" of 100-105dB or if this level is for continuous playback. If continuous, you will need to account for at least 10 of additional headroom.
Peaks, of course. Going by this resource here on this site, I see at least a dozen.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...owsperpage=250

According to this graph there are many that meet my requirements, (Granted, much of this info is not likely verified, but hey, if I can't trust AVS....) and from a quick check the majority of these are much cheaper than quoted. But all I need is a range, nothing hard and fast. I just bought a Klipsch RS62 II from Amazon for $340. The chart claims to reach 105 with the wattage I have available. Even if it's close It should be more what I need. I see what you mean about the 500 watts for the 170s. I guess I just need a little less beauty and a little more beast.

Per sound and vision HT labs Measure;
"The RC-62 II’s listening-window response measures +3.39/–3.88 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. An average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal responses measures +3.96/–3.75 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. The –3-dB point is at 72 Hz, and the –6-dB point is at 60 Hz. "

I will let you know how it sounds in a couple of days. Thanks again for your time and advice.

P.S. I may not have been expressing myself properly, the fact is these 170s don't do it for me. My concern was that I may have done something improperly but it seems clear my biggest mistake was to trying to explain these speakers are just not efficient enough for me. I don't have any specific requirements... just loud, clean and decent sounding! Thanks again!

Receiver: Yamaha RX-A2030
LCR: Klipsch RB-81 II C: Klipsch RC-62 II
SS: Klipsch icon KB-15 RS: Bic Acoustech PL-66 2 Polk OWM-3
LFE: 2 PSA XV-15
Source: PC, Directv AC: Furman M8-Dx Display: Viewsonic PJD7820HD, Silver Ticket HDTV 16:9 120" Fixed Frame Projector Screen

Last edited by jas wats; 10-06-2014 at 07:54 PM. Reason: P.S.
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post #3970 of 3981 Old 10-06-2014, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by jas wats View Post
Peaks, of course. Going by this resource here on this site, I see at least a dozen.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...owsperpage=250

According to this graph there are many that meet my requirements, (Granted, much of this info is not likely verified, but hey, if I can't trust AVS....) and from a quick check the majority of these are much cheaper than quoted. But all I need is a range, nothing hard and fast. I just bought a Klipsch RS62 II from Amazon for $340. The chart claims to reach 105 with the wattage I have available. Even if it's close It should be more what I need. I see what you mean about the 500 watts for the 170s. I guess I just need a little less beauty and a little more beast.

Per sound and vision HT labs Measure;
"The RC-62 II’s listening-window response measures +3.39/–3.88 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. An average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal responses measures +3.96/–3.75 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. The –3-dB point is at 72 Hz, and the –6-dB point is at 60 Hz. "

I will let you know how it sounds in a couple of days. Thanks again for your time and advice.

P.S. I may not have been expressing myself properly, the fact is these 170s don't do it for me. My concern was that I may have done something improperly but it seems clear my biggest mistake was to trying to explain these speakers are just not efficient enough for me. I don't have any specific requirements... just loud, clean and decent sounding! Thanks again!

Good luck Jas and I am happy that I was able to provide some insight. No, I don't think you were doing anything wrong with the 170's, just that these are definitely not the type of speaker you are looking for.


The RC-62 II is very similar in size and overall design to your BIC's... I am most curious to know if you find them to be an improvement over the BIC's

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post #3971 of 3981 Old 10-06-2014, 09:06 PM
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"The RC-62 II is very similar in size and overall design to your BIC's... I am most curious to know if you find them to be an improvement over the BIC's"

As am I. Great thing about Amazon is i can find out tomorrow!

Receiver: Yamaha RX-A2030
LCR: Klipsch RB-81 II C: Klipsch RC-62 II
SS: Klipsch icon KB-15 RS: Bic Acoustech PL-66 2 Polk OWM-3
LFE: 2 PSA XV-15
Source: PC, Directv AC: Furman M8-Dx Display: Viewsonic PJD7820HD, Silver Ticket HDTV 16:9 120" Fixed Frame Projector Screen
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post #3972 of 3981 Old 10-06-2014, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jas wats View Post
"The RC-62 II is very similar in size and overall design to your BIC's... I am most curious to know if you find them to be an improvement over the BIC's"

As am I. Great thing about Amazon is i can find out tomorrow!
It will definitely be an improvement over the FH6-LCR. What are you going to use as mains? You really should get the rf62s.
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post #3973 of 3981 Old 10-06-2014, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
It will definitely be an improvement over the FH6-LCR. What are you going to use as mains? You really should get the rf62s.
I'm trying to avoid towers. I'm not sure what I'm going with. I'll use the fh6s for now. I want to make sure I'll be happy with the center channel.

Receiver: Yamaha RX-A2030
LCR: Klipsch RB-81 II C: Klipsch RC-62 II
SS: Klipsch icon KB-15 RS: Bic Acoustech PL-66 2 Polk OWM-3
LFE: 2 PSA XV-15
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post #3974 of 3981 Old 10-07-2014, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jas wats View Post
I don't know, I didn't hear it that way. Maybe there is something I'm doing wrong but I can't imagine what. When I turned up the 170s they sounded great but then I keep expecting it to clip. My AVR goes to 16db and I cannot get over -8. I know that number is relative but I would think I have ALOT of headroom, not clipping at just over halfway.
Your avr's reading of 16dB is irrelevant without a calibration with a change of speakers, did you do that? What's halfway? You know a dB scale is logarithmic, not linear, right?

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post #3975 of 3981 Old 10-08-2014, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Ascend View Post
Good luck Jas and I am happy that I was able to provide some insight. No, I don't think you were doing anything wrong with the 170's, just that these are definitely not the type of speaker you are looking for.


The RC-62 II is very similar in size and overall design to your BIC's... I am most curious to know if you find them to be an improvement over the BIC's
Actually, the klipsch are about 50% larger and twice the weight. They look great and the sound is night and day. Along with the 2x RB-81 II, it came to $1050! For three speakers!
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Receiver: Yamaha RX-A2030
LCR: Klipsch RB-81 II C: Klipsch RC-62 II
SS: Klipsch icon KB-15 RS: Bic Acoustech PL-66 2 Polk OWM-3
LFE: 2 PSA XV-15
Source: PC, Directv AC: Furman M8-Dx Display: Viewsonic PJD7820HD, Silver Ticket HDTV 16:9 120" Fixed Frame Projector Screen

Last edited by jas wats; 10-08-2014 at 06:52 PM.
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post #3976 of 3981 Old 10-08-2014, 06:51 PM
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Receiver: Yamaha RX-A2030
LCR: Klipsch RB-81 II C: Klipsch RC-62 II
SS: Klipsch icon KB-15 RS: Bic Acoustech PL-66 2 Polk OWM-3
LFE: 2 PSA XV-15
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post #3977 of 3981 Old 10-08-2014, 07:04 PM
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Actually, the klipsch are about 50% larger and twice the weight. They look great and the sound is night and day. Along with the 2x RB-81 II, it came to $1050! For three speakers!
The 340s are better speakers imo and would have been $150 less.
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post #3978 of 3981 Old 10-08-2014, 09:32 PM
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The 340s are better speakers imo and would have been $150 less.
And you are entitled to it!

Receiver: Yamaha RX-A2030
LCR: Klipsch RB-81 II C: Klipsch RC-62 II
SS: Klipsch icon KB-15 RS: Bic Acoustech PL-66 2 Polk OWM-3
LFE: 2 PSA XV-15
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Ummm...I realize this is WAY OT but there are a lot of reasons that Buddhism was never an option for Constantine....For one, there wasn't a substantial community in Rome in the early 300s CE. {EDIT: actually an insignificant number.}

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post #3980 of 3981 Old 10-26-2014, 10:12 AM
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So, an update on the return process. I shipped the 3 speakers back to Ascend on 10/10 and notified them it was shipped and emailed them the shipping info. On 10/22 I emailed them to ask if they received the items since the UPS site said it was delivered on 10/15. Since a week had passed since that date I was expecting some sort of acknowledgement of receipt. I was emailed that the items were received a week earlier and that the items would be inspected and credited on 10/24. That's the last I have heard. Will update when items are officially returned and credited.

Receiver: Yamaha RX-A2030
LCR: Klipsch RB-81 II C: Klipsch RC-62 II
SS: Klipsch icon KB-15 RS: Bic Acoustech PL-66 2 Polk OWM-3
LFE: 2 PSA XV-15
Source: PC, Directv AC: Furman M8-Dx Display: Viewsonic PJD7820HD, Silver Ticket HDTV 16:9 120" Fixed Frame Projector Screen
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post #3981 of 3981 Old 10-26-2014, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jas wats View Post
So, an update on the return process. I shipped the 3 speakers back to Ascend on 10/10 and notified them it was shipped and emailed them the shipping info. On 10/22 I emailed them to ask if they received the items since the UPS site said it was delivered on 10/15. Since a week had passed since that date I was expecting some sort of acknowledgement of receipt. I was emailed that the items were received a week earlier and that the items would be inspected and credited on 10/24. That's the last I have heard. Will update when items are officially returned and credited.
No need. Your not the first to return some speakers and the business practices of Ascend have never been in question. Outstanding.

Glad you're enjoying the Kiplish speakers, but Bond is not the only one who thinks you could have done better for less.
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