Boston Acoustics Owners Thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 2972 Old 03-14-2007, 08:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by hdmi4ever View Post

No. It's your room. Hard floors (wood/tile) and bare walls make speakers sound brighter and muddier.

He said his Klipschs are in that same room right beside them.
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post #632 of 2972 Old 03-14-2007, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by thejohn View Post

I have a pair of Klipsch right next to them, and they are brighter than the Klipsch. Their bass is also lighter than I expected. My girlfriend also noted that they are bright and do not sound as good as the Klipsch

Everybody has different tastes, if not, we'd all have the same speakers. For me, the Klipsch RF7s were pretty low on the totem poll. As to why they probably don't sound as good in your home as they did at the store, your room would be the likely culprit. As to why they would sound brighter than the Klipsch, I guess it depends on which Klipsch models you have?
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post #633 of 2972 Old 03-15-2007, 09:51 PM
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All, thank you for your comments.

Steve, I read your story about what led up to your VR3 purchase, and you were instrumental in me purchasing the VR3s over a pair of Ascends. I was genuinely impressed at the HT store (I guess there are no stereo stores anymore). I even brought a friend, who recently went through a long speaker buying experience. He like them a great deal also. I honestly felt I made a good decision, until I got them home.

My room has thick, plush carpeting and wall paper. I do have a bay (or bow, whatever) window on the side of it, but I really don't feel that it is affecting things too much. My buddy told me to put better speaker cables on them (which I really don't believe in) and also that they may need to break in (I don't really believe in that stuff either). He also suggested to give them some time, because I may be used to my Klipsch. I can honestly say that, from the get go, they were more detailed than my Klipsch KSF 8.5s, which I was countiing on. I was not counting on them to have less bass, and certainly not expecting them to be brighter. Right now I have the treble knob turned down to about 11 o' clock and the bass at 1 o' clock. This is helping things. I also think I may be starting to adapt to these Bostons.

It should be known that I have a Boston HT system and Boston sub/sat computer speakers. So, I will always like Boston. I really hope I can get used to things. Has anyone had a similar experience? Do they break in?
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post #634 of 2972 Old 03-15-2007, 10:19 PM
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TheJohnnyk,

Do this experiment. Take a break for 3 days not listening to your system. Then do lots of work around the house. After that, take a snack break and listen to your VR3 again. See if that improves the sound.
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post #635 of 2972 Old 03-16-2007, 12:22 AM
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I couldn't find a FR measurement of that specific Klipsch, but here is the VR3 (purple line):



and here is the low end measured in room:



Aside from the two nulls caused by the room, when run full range, you can see that the VR3 extends deep and flat, solid to 30hz. I'm thinking the lack of bass you are noticing is probably because those Klipch might have a peaky upper bass region to try and make up for a lack of real extension. Also, with a single 6.5" woofer, distortion in the bass region is likely a fair amount higher, resulting in more artificial oomph. Here were some measurements I found of other Klipsch models that represent exactly what I am referring to:

RB-15


RB-75 (purple line)


As for brightness, I'd have to think it would be the more consistant overall midrange to highs reproduction of the VR3s that you aren't used to, though they do have a peak at the top end. When you are used to the sound of one speaker, its signature becomes engrained in your brain as correct, and there is nothing wrong with that - everybody likes something different. In this case, seeing as the VR3s are a pretty flat speaker from top to bottom, with plenty of air moving capability (low distortion), I think it would be logical to assume that the Klipsch as a frame of reference has boosted lows and possibly a dip in the upper mids. Again though, don't take this as me saying the Klipsch are bad - everybody has different tastes and one has to go with what they prefer, otherwise there would only be one brand of speakers. I'm just searching for a likely explanation.
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post #636 of 2972 Old 03-16-2007, 12:23 AM
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thejohnnyk,

I believe BA VR-3's are actually quite bright. I have VR-2's, which use the same tweeter and midrange as the VR-3's, and it took a while to get used to it. The VR-2's replaced JBL E-50's that are on the warm side, so I was not comfortable with the relatively bright sound of VR-2's at the beginning. However, it was nice to have the details I couldn't hear before. So, I added a stereo equalizer (Sansui SE-7) only for the front mains (VR-2's) and tweaked the sound a little bit, and it was better. Then guess what? As I listen to more CD, SACD, and DVD-A discs, I ended up bypassing the equalizer more and more. There are two reasons behind this change, I believe.

First, speakers do need break-in. I hear a noticeable difference between the VR-2's right after I set them up, and now. It opened up a little bit and do sound more natural. The change is specifically from bright to natural because the tweeter starts out a little harsh, and the woofer doesn't push enough air at the beginning. As the woofer starts to push enough air and the tweeter settles in, the whole sounds starts to blend in nicely.

Second, I now know that there are just badly recorded sources (CD, SACD, DVD-A). I still have the equalizer hooked up because discs such as Emerson, Lake, and Parlmer Live (DVD-A) album still need some taming on the high frequency. I didn't notice it before with the old JBL speakers, but now it is so clear. The recording is just bad, period. So, try different CDs etc. and see if you feel the VR-3's are bright for all or just some. If only some sound bright, the chances are the recording is the one to blame, not your speakers.

One more side note. It sounds strange, but here is what I had to do to make the VR-2's sound right. I originally had them right next to the TV, so they were about 5-ft apart with my listening position about 11-ft away. It sounded really strange in a very fatiguing way. When I leaned forward about a foot, suddenly the sound opened up and sounded a lot better. Staging was day and night difference and the highs were buried nicely in the whole sound as they should. So, I placed them a little more apart (~7-ft), and now I don't hear the difference no matter where I am. I guess it was either my room or simply the lack of separation between the speakers that caused the problem. One thing for sure is that the placement makes a huge difference. I don't know your speaker locations, but play with it a little bit and see if it makes any difference. I think it is worth a try.

I have no doubt that VR-3's are way better than Klipsch RF-7's. I demoed Klipsch RF series a while ago, and there was no way I was going to hook them up with my bright Yamaha HTR-5760 receiver. VR-2's are on the bright side as well, but get along with my bright receiver nicely.

My 2 cents...

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post #637 of 2972 Old 03-16-2007, 02:58 AM
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I prefer the bass from most Bostons to the bloated bass that dominates the sound of so many speakers. Apparently, most folks like a decent midbass hump compared to the tight bass of, say, the VR3s.

I also prefer to roll-off the highs a bit on most BA speakers, but that's just me. I'm guessing the brightness thejohnnyk hears is in the low to mid treble region. Some Klipsch with large midranges have less energy in that region than they should, while BA remains flat.
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post #638 of 2972 Old 03-16-2007, 03:30 AM
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After looking at the frequency response curve posted by SteveCallas and the point TitaniumMan made, I played with the equalizer to see where the brightness comes from. As I said earlier, now I'm quite used to the BA sound and very happy with it, but it was interesting to see exactly where the cause of brightness is by artificially increasing certain frequency band one by one.

My equalizer has 10 bands per channel including 2kHz, 4kHz, 8kHz, and 16kHz on the top. I thought that the brightness came from the highest frequency, but I was wrong. I put on a jazz SACD, and increased the output on each frequency band one by one. 8 and 16kHz controls didn't make the sound that much brighter. The sound became really bright when I increased the 2 and 4kHz controls, mostly at 4kHz band. Is that what you are referring to, TitaniumMan? Since the crossover on both VR-3's and VR-2's are at 2.8kHz between the midrange and the tweeter, I guess the brightness is a combination of them. And also that's where the dip is for Klipsch RB-75 in the diagram posted by SteveCallas.

Since I had JBL before VR-2's, I don't think this is just a contrast between Klipsch and BA though. Would it be possible to say the brightness in sound is generally caused by around 2-4kHz? I just find it quite interesting... If it is the case, then a regular treble/bass control of a receiver would not be able to tame the brightness of a speaker because the treble control mainly works on higher frequencies than 4kHz, am I right?

I know it is off topic, but this small experiment was interesting... I just wanted to share with you.

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post #639 of 2972 Old 03-16-2007, 01:23 PM
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I applaud your initiative, starlite. Yes, that's exactly where most people hear "brightness" when comparing speakers. There are plenty of loudspeakers designed with a dip in this region. I've heard some HT speakers with a pronounced peak in that band of frequencies that enhanced dialog with some movies, and made music all but unlistenable.

Also, some recordings are a little too energetic in the 4-8 kHz range. Speakers with a suck-out in the same band will sound better than a speaker with flat response, but on decent recordings I prefer the unedited Boston sound.
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post #640 of 2972 Old 03-16-2007, 01:56 PM
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[quote=thejohnnyk]All, thank you for your comments.


they may need to break in (I don't really believe in that stuff either).

Believe in it....

Tired
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post #641 of 2972 Old 03-16-2007, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starlite View Post

My equalizer has 10 bands per channel including 2kHz, 4kHz, 8kHz, and 16kHz on the top. I thought that the brightness came from the highest frequency, but I was wrong. I put on a jazz SACD, and increased the output on each frequency band one by one. 8 and 16kHz controls didn't make the sound that much brighter. The sound became really bright when I increased the 2 and 4kHz controls, mostly at 4kHz band.

Nice detective work. It wouldn't be a stretch to assume the Klipsch speakers you own could have a dip in that region. As Titanium stated, a lot of center channels will have that region slightly boosted in an attempt to make dialog stand out - look at the green line in the Boston measurement, that's the VRC. In a proper system that isn't needed, and that's one of the reasons I passed on the VRC.
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post #642 of 2972 Old 03-16-2007, 04:53 PM
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I am glad that I found this thread. I have owned BA for the past 20 years. I still have 2 A-120's for mains, a VR10 for Center, a powered sub, and VRS Dipole Speakers, all BA.

I am currently in the process of setting up a new HT room. I am planning on upgrading my A-120's to the VR3's, BA still sounds incredible. My A-120's still put out awesome sound at 20 years old. But I am not going to be able to use my BA dipole speakers for surrounds.

The room setup is in a "L" shape and the setup is in the lower part of the "L", that is to say that when I place my surrounds, one will be very close to a back wall, and the other will have approx 15 feet of clearance from the back wall, so you can see the dipoles will not be able to work properly.

It has been suggested that I check out the VR-MX or a direct fire Micro130X for rears. Has anyone used these or do you have any recommendations? These speakers will have to be mounted on the ceiling, which are 9ft tall. I am having a hard time finding BA locally. Suggestions?

Thanks.
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post #643 of 2972 Old 03-16-2007, 05:10 PM
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Thanks again guys. I am starting to like them better. I may be smoking crack, but I think the bass is getting fuller/deeper. Maybe these VR3's are breaking in. I don't know if the brightness is getting any better, but I will say that they are not bright on every recording. On some, they actually sound right on, which leads me to believe that they may be bad on bad recordings (like you said). So, I think I will be keeping them.

Now......for you all of you that own VR3's, what do I need to drive these things? Now I have a 10 year old Denon stereo receiver, 2 X 65 watts. I would like to get A/V receiver. How many watts? What brand? What did you folks discover that works well with them? Also, what surrounds and center should I go with? Does the VRC suck as much as I hear it does? Sould I go with the VRX or just bookshelves in the rear?

You guys rock......
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post #644 of 2972 Old 03-16-2007, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belusch View Post

These speakers will have to be mounted on the ceiling, which are 9ft tall. I am having a hard time finding BA locally. Suggestions?

You may want to take a look at the Bravo IIs, I believe they use the same tweeter and midrange as the VR3s - they are wedge shaped and come in black or white. Personally, I don't think surrounds have to be "all that", and I'd just go with one of their cheaper bookshelf models like the CR67s. Try the website 1call.com (spell out one instead of using a 1), they are an authorized dealer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thejohnnyk View Post

Now......for you all of you that own VR3's, what do I need to drive these things? Now I have a 10 year old Denon stereo receiver, 2 X 65 watts. I would like to get A/V receiver. How many watts? What brand? What did you folks discover that works well with them? Also, what surrounds and center should I go with? Does the VRC suck as much as I hear it does? Sould I go with the VRX or just bookshelves in the rear?

Each brand of receiver has different idiosyncracies, like the way to navigate menus, the remote control layout, features, what is displayed on the front pannel, and other things it does. I hate to say it, but it's gotten to the point where you do need to audition receivers just to make sure you don't end up with one that bugs the hell out of you. The website www.hometheatermag.com measures a lot of receivers in regards to power and distortion, so that would be a great place to do some research. After testing a handful of units myself, I settled on the Yamaha 5890, it does everything right for me, no annoyances. If you can do a vertical tower center, a 3rd VR3 or a VR2 or VR1 would be your best bet for a center. If not, you can try to snag a used VR12 on ebay or something like that. If neither of those options would work, the VRC isn't exactly garbage
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post #645 of 2972 Old 03-20-2007, 12:38 AM
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Well I am a proud owner of VR1's which I am using as my mains, VRC and cr65 as rears, getting ready to pull the trigger on a pair of VR3's then ill use my vr1's as rears. Going to also get two BEHRINGER A500 to power my VR3's bi-wired.
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post #646 of 2972 Old 03-20-2007, 05:09 PM
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Right now in my living room I have VR2s for fronts with VRC center, I'm happy with that. Will be setting up spare room for HT and some music. Leaving towers in living room for music. I needed bookshelves for fronts in spare room. Today I came upon a store that was having a very good sale on Bostons, picked up a pair of VM60's real low price. The VRMC was pretty cheap also, but thought I would save some money and use my VRC with the 60s. Would that be an ok match? I am having second thoughts and wonder if I should just leave VRC in living room and go back tomorrow and get the VRMC. It would be nice to keep HT setup in living room also. Any thoughts?
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post #647 of 2972 Old 03-20-2007, 09:09 PM
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I'd take a VRC over a VRMC. The VRC has the newer, more sensitive tweeter with better power handling and the three 4.5" woofers equate to more air moving capability than the two 5.25" woofers.
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post #648 of 2972 Old 03-21-2007, 11:22 AM
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Can anyone give me any tips on installing the VRX on the ceiling? Any real life experience dealing with the direct fire versus defuse side of the speakers and which way they should point? Should they be located on the sides and pointed in towards the seating area or should they be placed behind the seating area and pointed forward towards the seating ares? Which side should I point in which direction? Thanks for the help.
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post #649 of 2972 Old 03-21-2007, 01:49 PM
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Whats up with customer service at Boston? I have sent several emails and gotten no response
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post #650 of 2972 Old 03-21-2007, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalbent View Post

Whats up with customer service at Boston? I have sent several emails and gotten no response


I have tried calling them as well. All I seem to get is the repeat message "all agents are busy" then dumps me off to a voice mail. My emails haven't been answered either.
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post #651 of 2972 Old 03-21-2007, 08:57 PM
 
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Hopefully it's not another M&K type of situation in the works.
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post #652 of 2972 Old 03-22-2007, 11:09 AM
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I just got ahold of BA. I spoke with the customer service department and got ahold of them pretty quick today. Even talked with one of thier technicians, they assured me there was nothing wrong with the company. I would call them, 978.538.5000, if you have question about a product, dial "0" to goto the operator and ask for a guy by the name of Cory, he is great to work with. If you have service needs, there is the option to be transferred.
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post #653 of 2972 Old 03-26-2007, 07:03 AM
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So, the Yamaha 5890 is good. Any other opinions for a receiver to match VR3's?
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post #654 of 2972 Old 03-29-2007, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thejohnnyk View Post

So, the Yamaha 5890 is good. Any other opinions for a receiver to match VR3's?

My HTR 5960 works very well with my VR-3's I don't see why any make receiver with at least 50 watts and up should do fine? IMHO I don't find that big a difference between amps as long as EQ is defeated and at normal volume levels of course.

I dragged several receivers home from the big box stores, the controls and user interface was my biggest beef. The Yamaha went on sale and so it followed me home but I like the Denons as well. I guess the point is YOU need to spend some time with a few?
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post #655 of 2972 Old 03-29-2007, 03:21 PM
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anybody selling a vr-mc?

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post #656 of 2972 Old 03-29-2007, 05:07 PM
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I also have old Yammy 5760 hooked up to VR-2s and they work fine together. Yammies are a little bright and BA speakers are normally bright, too, but it is not at the level that would bother you. I am driving these speakers with Acurus 150W amp, so it tones down the brightness as well. To tweak the sound a little more to my taste, I added a Sansui equalizer, but it's because of my love affair with the midrange, not because of the shortcomings of either the receiver or the speakers.

I agree with Slidel on receiver choice. I auditioned Pioneer, Yamaha, Sherwood, and Denon before buying the 5760, and they are not that different. I guess the difference shows when you go way up to the ~$2k price range, but at below $1k, most models do a good job. The power seems adequate, and the features such as Pro Logic IIx are included in most models. You are not going to use the DSPs on the receiver that much anyway, so the number of DSPs available shouldn't matter. I just added outboard amps later when I wanted to have bigger (not louder) sound from my speakers, but 5760 was driving the speakers just fine.

amtctt,

There is one VR-MC on sale on ebay. Do a search, and it will pop up. There are some people already bidding on it, so I'm not sure how high the price will go.

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post #657 of 2972 Old 03-30-2007, 06:45 AM
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The used prices on some of the BA centers is just amazing. I wish all my stuff could keep that kind of resale

I see a VRC for $400 at CC sitting along side a $430 VR2 with same tweeters. The woofers in the VRC must cost more than the VR-2's If I had the right setup I would do as others and and just buy a third VR-2 or 3 for center. I'm seeing threads where a phantom center is preferred over center speaker and amp, hmmm...
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post #658 of 2972 Old 03-30-2007, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slidell View Post

I dragged several receivers home from the big box stores, the controls and user interface was my biggest beef

Exactly. In a given price range, power, inputs/outputs, and features will typically be about the same between various units. There will be differences here and there, but nothing really huge. The biggest factor, in my opinion, is usability - navigation, remote control, and little quirks that each unit has.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slidell View Post

I'm seeing threads where a phantom center is preferred over center speaker and amp, hmmm...

It's pure foolishness On a hunch, myself and others have conducted testing and discovered that the DD spec mandates dynamic range compression when less than 5 speakers are used. You can potentially lose out on a significant amount of bass, top end clarity, and any dynamic shifts in output by using a phantom center or no surrounds. DTS is immune to this, but it's built into DD and was found in every processor any of us who tested used, including THX Certified, etc.. Won't be much of an issue in something like a comedy or drama, but in movies with powerful sound tracks, it can really water things down. See here.
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post #659 of 2972 Old 03-30-2007, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
It's pure foolishness :) On a hunch, myself and others have conducted testing and discovered that the DD spec mandates dynamic range compression when less than 5 speakers are used. You can potentially lose out on a significant amount of bass, top end clarity, and any dynamic shifts in output by using a phantom center or no surrounds. DTS is immune to this, but it's built into DD and was found in every processor any of us who tested used, including THX Certified, etc.. Won't be much of an issue in something like a comedy or drama, but in movies with powerful sound tracks, it can really water things down. See [URL=http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-subwoofers/1736-bass-effects-downmixing-dd-stereo-spectrum-labs-information.html
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here[/url].


Interesting threads but Phantom may have some merit if your a DTS fan My old Carver C-17 pre-pro has a center Phantom setting for the older Dolby sound streams, I only used it for stereo. The SPL loss is understood but curious if proper electronics may make the cost savings worth while if imaging or clarity issues can be reduced? I got a VRC in the works due to lack of space and my Yamaha has no settings for a phantom center that I'm aware of.
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post #660 of 2972 Old 03-30-2007, 03:17 PM
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Umm, if every single movie you own has a DTS track, then sure. It's not a static spl loss that you get, it's dynamic loss. In other words, the whole soundtrack is compressed and no event sounds much louder or softer than another. So your explosions and dialogue will be of the same magnitude. Might as well just use the tv's speakers
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