Energy Owners Thread - Page 1268 - AVS Forum
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post #38011 of 52133 Old 03-16-2012, 08:53 AM
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Wow, just noticed how much rambling I did. Here's the TL;DR version:
Based on my large open space and having the RC bundle, does anyone NOT feel comfortable with using a Denon 2112 to run it all?


Okay, so I've been dragging my feet on this...I hate decisions when there are so many choices. I also hate to bug you guys with this since in a lot of ways it just comes down to personal choice. But I'm really struggling with finalizing my decision. I've had the RC-bundle for a couple months now and love it. I'm powering with them with an Onkyo TX-SR503 and honestly the sound is great to me and the volume can get (much) louder than I'm comfortable with.

That said, I really want to upgrade the receiver. I'd like an AVR (especially for Audyssey, hdmi, and networking). And all the other goodies are a bonus too (e.g. I'd use Airplay all the time). I've done a lot of reading over in the receivers forum, but as far as making the decision: a. I like you guys more and b. it's specifically to do with the energy's, so I figure y'all have a little better perspective.

I was thinking about the Onkyo tx-nr809, but there's an awful lot of love in here for Denons. So I guess I'm down to these three:
1. Denon 2112ci ($450 - refurb) - feature-wise, etc, seems like a good fit based on batpig's Denon guide
2. Onkyo nr809 ($650 - refurb) - a lot of power and features packed into a nice price
3. Denon 4311ci ($1300'ish) - Wouldn't ever have to wonder if I should have "gone bigger/better" hehe

I had almost settled in on the 2112, but then saw RSXer's post and batpig's response (see below) back in May. So that got me to wondering if with my big ole open space, if I would be better off with more power for the RC-70s and friends. And so I started looking (again) at the 809 or 4311. But then I got to more thinking, and realized that I should probably be comparing the power output of the 2112 to my existing Onkyo, since I'm already happy with the sound, at which point I'd think the 2112 should be more than adequate powerwise.

Soooo...I think I'm good with the 2112, but just wanted to see if my logic is sound or if anyone has any opposing opinions.

As for budget and stuff like that. It's more a matter of principle than finances. I'd obviously rather spend $450 than $1300, but if there are significant practical benefits, I could justify more with myself.


From 05-29-11
RSXer: Is a denon 2112 sufficient to run front rc-70s?
batpig: almost certainly yes, the RC-70's are 8-ohm and pretty sensitive. How big is your room and how far away will you be sitting from the speakers?


A couple pictures of the new stuff (I've been slacking and still haven't wall-mounted the TV or done much in the way of room treatments):



My original thread (more pics and info): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post21377506
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post #38012 of 52133 Old 03-16-2012, 09:07 AM
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Great looking speakers!!! Out of all of the receivers you mentioned....and I heard all of them....I opted for the 809. It had the most features and power...plus can hadle a 4ohm load if need be down the road. It really is a tank. I would not go the refurb route though. I think J and R has it for $699 brand new shipped right now. That's a crazy good deal! The 2112 is a VERY nice receiver, but other than a few things here and there it's not a HUGE upgrade from what you have. Yes...it's an upgrade....but if you're going to upgrade then get a real upgrade if it's in your price range. The 809 is a huge upgrade and offers the most flexibility around in that price range.
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post #38013 of 52133 Old 03-16-2012, 09:15 AM
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First off, I think you should be able to get a new (not refurbished) 2112ci for $450 shipped from Electronics Expo if you call them and ask for that price. I'm certainly no expert with AVRs, but I think you'd find the most benefit by getting a receiver with MultEQ XT (or better) given your spacelike the 2112ci can provide. It seems like that receiver has all of the features you'd like and use and if your current receiver plays loud enough for you, I don't see any reason the 2112ci wouldn't be able to do the same. Of course the 4311 would be better, but only you can decide if it's worth spending more than twice as much as the 2112ci.
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post #38014 of 52133 Old 03-16-2012, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by czechmka View Post

More curious questions; right now I only have my HT system set up as 5.1. Here goes the questions:

1. If I was to set it up for 7.1 will it make a huge difference, I don't know how much 7.1 material is out there. The WAF would be very low adding more speakers to the living room at least in this house.

2. What are the smaller front speakers used for? I understand you've got the center and the two towers but what is the second set of speakers doing?

3. the Veritas Surround Speakers, I will seriously consider buying these if they come up on sale anytime in the next year. So are these as good or better than the RC-R surrounds?

Thanks for your time all.

I'm not sure as I only have the RCR but I would take the general concensus of the two lines and apply it to the surrounds that the veritas are brighter and more revealing while the RC's are more laid back and less revealing. For surrounds and ambient effects I would think either would work well but I haven't compared them. It isn't as critical that surrounds match like it is with the front 3 so I personally wouldn't have a problem mixing lines in this case.
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post #38015 of 52133 Old 03-16-2012, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by czechmka View Post

More curious questions; right now I only have my HT system set up as 5.1. Here goes the questions:

1. If I was to set it up for 7.1 will it make a huge difference, I don't know how much 7.1 material is out there. The WAF would be very low adding more speakers to the living room at least in this house.

2. What are the smaller front speakers used for? I understand you've got the center and the two towers but what is the second set of speakers doing?

3. the Veritas Surround Speakers, I will seriously consider buying these if they come up on sale anytime in the next year. So are these as good or better than the RC-R surrounds?

Thanks for your time all.


1. The most important thing is to have a *good* 5.1 layout. That is the "core" of any system. Speakers beyond the core 5.1 are "gravy" and can certainly increase the quality of the overall presentation, but I wouldn't call them essential. Each person has to travel that route on their own, balancing their own personal "audiophile tendencies", WAF, budget, room layout, etc. If you can't add more speakers, I wouldn't sweat it... but if you can manage it, I doubt you will be disappointed.

2. I don't understand this question -- are you referring to somebody's setup specifically? Or are you asking a general question about "height" speakers?

3. The Veritas surrounds are effectively the same as the RC-R's.

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post #38016 of 52133 Old 03-16-2012, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolowizard View Post

I was thinking about the Onkyo tx-nr809, but there's an awful lot of love in here for Denons. So I guess I'm down to these three:
1. Denon 2112ci ($450 - refurb) - feature-wise, etc, seems like a good fit based on batpig's Denon guide
2. Onkyo nr809 ($650 - refurb) - a lot of power and features packed into a nice price
3. Denon 4311ci ($1300'ish) - Wouldn't ever have to wonder if I should have "gone bigger/better" hehe

well, as above, this is really a personal choice of "how far do you go?" It's like buying a car, do you buy the practical option which does everything you need, do you spend a little more for another step up with even more goodies, or do you splurge on the fancy car because goddammit you can?

The 2112ci is the practical choice. It does everything you need and is quite affordable.

The 809 is the step-up option.... still has MultEQ XT like the 2112ci so sound should be very comparable, but it packs more power and features. Fancy video processor, THX, Audyssey DSX... although note that the xx09 Onkyos do NOT have Airplay AFAIK.

The 4311ci is the splurge for the luxury car. More than you need in any practical sense but it's the best. And considering your room I don't have much doubt that you would appreciate the difference between XT and XT32.

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post #38017 of 52133 Old 03-16-2012, 10:36 AM
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Can anyone comment on a comparison between the Energy Take 5 5.0 and Martin Logan MLT-1 5.1 systems, esp if you've had a chance to directly compare the two? Intent is for a computer 5.1 system; the Energy Take 5 is currently available for $150 and the Martin Logan is up for $250, but I have little time to choose between them.

Damn it Jim, I'm a physicist, not an engineer!
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post #38018 of 52133 Old 03-16-2012, 10:47 AM
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haven't heard them both but honestly any decent "sub/sat" setup like that should be pretty similar in sound quality. I wouldn't expect there to be a major difference. Note that the Energy setup doesn't include a sub (5.0, not 5.1) so you would need to budget additional for that.

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post #38019 of 52133 Old 03-16-2012, 11:29 AM
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Thanks, as always, you guys rock!

I guess my only remaining question for the crowd: Should/could the additional power from the 809 (vs the 2112) make any sound quality difference at low/normal listening levels? (I'd assume that it would obviously let it get louder, but does having more power make it "cleaner" or anything at average volumes?)

I know it's otherwise up to me at this point, but just an FYI here's what I'm down to:

1. 2112 - best price, is most likely EVERYthing I could need, and is denon (so can make use of all batpig's and others' guides and such)
2. 809 - more features, more power (*tim allen grunt*)

I might just flip a coin. hehe. I already have an AirPort Express hooked up by the TV, so I can use my iPhone Remote either way.
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post #38020 of 52133 Old 03-16-2012, 11:48 AM
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post #38021 of 52133 Old 03-16-2012, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by czechmka View Post

More curious questions; right now I only have my HT system set up as 5.1. Here goes the questions:

1. If I was to set it up for 7.1 will it make a huge difference, I don't know how much 7.1 material is out there. The WAF would be very low adding more speakers to the living room at least in this house.

2. What are the smaller front speakers used for? I understand you've got the center and the two towers but what is the second set of speakers doing?

3. the Veritas Surround Speakers, I will seriously consider buying these if they come up on sale anytime in the next year. So are these as good or better than the RC-R surrounds?

Thanks for your time all.

As someone who recently went from 5.1 to 7.1 I will say there is a fairly noticable difference between the two in movies, especially blu-rays decoded in 7.1 DTS or HD master audio. Keep in mind even movies in 5.1 can be matrixed to 7.1 and even that sounds more immersive to me. Also keep in mind I have surround backs and the setting on my Pioneer VSX-921 to auto-surround so it dictates what will be stereo, 5.1 or 7.1. It usually does a very good job, leaving programs orginally recorded in 2 channel in 2 channel and most of the time makes 5.1 7.1 depending on what format the audio was recorded in. I think it's a lot easier to upmix 5.1 channels to 7.1 then it is 2.1 to 5.1 so I'm happy with stereo staying stereo. Now for games such as Splinter Cell, MW3, Halo and Resident Evil it makes a huge difference because the sounds are actually coming from behind you, and these are all on the xbox which only does 5.1. Now if I go furthur and put in Grand Turismo 5 or Killzone 3 on my PS3 which is 7.1, it's really awesome lol. This is just my experience and my room is setup in a rectangular long ways fashion which is good for 7.1 as opposed to a room that isn't deep enough which prob. wouldn't sound too good in comparison. Hope this helps!
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post #38022 of 52133 Old 03-16-2012, 02:02 PM
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RE 5.1 to 7.1

I have been 7.1 for quite awhile so I don't really notice it. Unless like last night watching Insideous something seem wrong and turns out I had changed some setting and was not upmixing to 7ch. What a difference. That movie has a lot of effects in the back and with 7 ch it felt like the creaks and clocks ticking were somewhere in the room with me not coming from the side speaker like it did with the 5.1. As far as whether a disc is encoded at 7 ch or you use PLII to upconvert from 5ch I don't think in general it makes a huge difference.

My review comparisons of Energy RC-70s to Veritas V6.3 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post21199418
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post #38023 of 52133 Old 03-16-2012, 02:07 PM
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By the way, my ears have beheld the sweet and amazing sound of the Veritas 1.8 now They are definitely amazing... If I had the $1000 when I first found them I'd def had snagged them. But jasonmichalh definitely put them to better use and I'm glad he has them

Also, about my plugged speaker port comment a few days ago, some were confused. I was merely warning anyone
who was getting a set of speakers for the first time not to play their music too loud with the ports plugged. Although in essence the speakers can't be damaged by loud play, for those who don't know what clipping sounds like, or are used to speakers with high distortion, can push the speakers too far. Granted, the same can be done with ports NOT plugged, but those that want the rich bass but need ports plugged (like speakers against wall or in cubby) may push the speakers to higher dBs to make up for the bass lost with ports plugged, once again going back to what I was saying before.

Sorry for the run-on sentences, but does that make sense now?

For those looking into getting Energy speakers, or upgrading their current Energy setup, here are some reviews I've written that may help:http://www.tempestaudio.blogspot.com  (haven't updated in a while, but include Energy Take Classic 5.1, RC-10, CF-70, and CC-10)

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post #38024 of 52133 Old 03-16-2012, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InTheHolodeck View Post

Can anyone comment on a comparison between the Energy Take 5 5.0 and Martin Logan MLT-1 5.1 systems, esp if you've had a chance to directly compare the two? Intent is for a computer 5.1 system; the Energy Take 5 is currently available for $150 and the Martin Logan is up for $250, but I have little time to choose between them.

I brought my Take 5.1 to the office when my RC-70 setup kicked it out of the house. I have just put it into service there as a 2.1 using a small desktop amp connected to my computer and I am digging it. Rich sounding; the small sub that the Takes came with is plenty for the small office and creates a nice bottom presence. I would have liked to hear the Martin Logans, but can report that the Take Classics do a nice job but absolutely I feel that they need the sub. Wouldn't be the same without.
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post #38025 of 52133 Old 03-16-2012, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by czechmka View Post

1. If I was to set it up for 7.1 will it make a huge difference, I don't know how much 7.1 material is out there. The WAF would be very low adding more speakers to the living room at least in this house.

I generally agree with the other replies. 7.1 is gravy, but you know, gravy can be good In my case, I think my receiver (Pio) duplicates the surround channels in 5.1 soundtracks to both surround sides and surround back. In a 5.1 setup, the surrounds are supposed to be somehere in diagonal behind you (say, 8 o'clock and 4 o'clock). In my room this is impossible, I had to put the surrounds on the sides. And my surround speakers were bookshelves. I found the direct sound coming directly from the sides sometimes annoying.

Since I put older bookshelves on the floor behind my couch to act as surround backs (I'm back to a bay window, there's nowhere else to put them), I enjoy much more even 5.1 soundtracks since that produces a much more diffuse surround field. And even if those surround backs are rather big, since they're invisible, WAF was very high. I highly recommend this arrangement if it's the only possible -- I mean, it's worth it vs nothing.

And for games, 7.1 is a definite plus (and if we ever get formats with more channels, that will also be a plus) since every speaker is on an equal footing in terms of importance (except for the musical score and cutscene dialogs I guess). If you're spinning in place, the whole sound field rotates around you, and having more speakers to build that is just better.

Quote:


2. What are the smaller front speakers used for? I understand you've got the center and the two towers but what is the second set of speakers doing?

Those a either front heights or front wides. These are optional speakers on some receivers but they're not playing dedicated channels. Instead, the receiver follows a spec (e.g. pro logic IIz) to extract the content to play on the heights or wides from all other channels. For example, by comparing the left and right channels, the receiver will compute an angle for the source (content) and determine how much of it is played on the main fronts and the front wides. E.g. content that is only found on the right channel and not at all on the left channel may be played only on the right front wide and not on the main right. As for heights, they are mainly used to play content that is either present on all channels (ambiance) or equally on the left, right and center. Typically this is not dialog but instead sound that is meant to come from everywhere in front of you (e.g. explosion). Having sound coming from the heights -- which you're supposed to place above your mains -- enhances that feeling.

Typically (on most receivers that I'm aware of) you can only use either the wides or the heights. In some receivers (e.g. mine) you can plug all 9 or 11 speakers but there's a smaller number of amps available (e.g. 7) so you must choose between enabling front wides or surround backs, for example.

I never tried wides or heights and probably won't ever in my current room. However I'm pretty confident that a good sub would add more to a setup than heights or wides. Not to nag or anything

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post #38026 of 52133 Old 03-16-2012, 08:51 PM
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Shameless plug....I have a pair of RC70s and Rc lcr and Rc8c pair for sale in classifieds if anyone could use them. All are brand new in factory boxing
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post #38027 of 52133 Old 03-16-2012, 10:06 PM
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But people could buy new with warranty for less. Maybe I'm confused. Since you have indeed listed them on this site, will you go ahead and tell us the prices for everything again here on this thread?
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post #38028 of 52133 Old 03-17-2012, 03:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karn View Post

I'd agree with what deano said and would also add that for that price you'd be better off going with the RC-R or veritas surrounds than the LCR. IMO these are better than the LCR as a surround due to the fact that they are not rear ported so you can mount flush to the wall, bipole/dipole/monopole giving you really flexible surround options and will easily go down to 80hz which is all you really need out of surrounds. The LCR may have slightly more midrange clarity and go lower but I don't think either of these things are particularly important for surrounds and the LCR is likely only marginally better in these areas where the RCR or veritas surround advantages are very significant for surrounds. So if you already have the 10's I would just stick with them and look into room treatments or possibly a second sub to smooth out response but if you need surrounds and have the money the RCR or veritas surround would be a much better option for you than the LCR.

Thanks for all of that. Right now I only have the pair of RC-70s. I will be finishing the 5.1 setup once I get into a house in a few months.
I like the fact that the RC-Rs can be wall mounted, but they seem very hard to find nowadays. How close tonally are the current Verita Surrounds? Would they sound out of place? I know rear speakers aren't quite as important, but any sibilance would drive me nuts. That's why I picked the nice neutral RC-70s.
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post #38029 of 52133 Old 03-17-2012, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mphfrom77 View Post

But people could buy new with warranty for less. Maybe I'm confused. Since you have indeed listed them on this site, will you go ahead and tell us the prices for everything again here on this thread?

I noticed that too......
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post #38030 of 52133 Old 03-17-2012, 06:53 AM
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Yeah, I was confused if the total shipped price included the RC8C's too, or if everything was indeed separate. IDK. Plus, conversation will only draw interest, no?
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post #38031 of 52133 Old 03-17-2012, 08:36 AM
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Hi Everyone,

I come from Hong Kong. Anyone know where can buy ENERGY RC-LCR center speaker form website is avaliable shipping to Hong Kong. Because this model is out of stock in Hong Kong. just checking with Vann website cannot shipping to Hong Kong Area. Please help...

THANKS
Eggcake

This is my Hi-Fi system. Energy Lover.!!

DENON PMA-2000AE, DCD-1500
YAMAHA RX-765, PS3 Slim
ENERGY RC-70
Wharfedeal Diamond Center
BMW LM1 x4 surround.

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post #38032 of 52133 Old 03-17-2012, 01:02 PM
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I recently picked up a pair of RC-70s and was looking for the matching center which seems to be only available at Vanns. I also noticed that they have the V5.2C for only $20 more than the RCLCR. It should be be a better speaker, but will it match the RC-70s? I was planning on RC-10s for the rear unless someone has a better suggestion? Thanks.
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post #38033 of 52133 Old 03-17-2012, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eggcake View Post

Hi Everyone,

I come from Hong Kong. Anyone know where can buy ENERGY RC-LCR center speaker form website is avaliable shipping to Hong Kong. Because this model is out of stock in Hong Kong. just checking with Vann website cannot shipping to Hong Kong Area. Please help...

THANKS
Eggcake

This is my Hi-Fi system. Energy Lover.!!

DENON PMA-2000AE, DCD-1500
YAMAHA RX-765, PS3 Slim
ENERGY RC-70
Wharfedeal Diamond Center
BMW LM1 x4 surround.

You might have to use eBay.
You have a really nice looking set up. Good luck securing the matching centre channel.

Here are some older manuals from Energy
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/scjuc30ylshsa5n/CaqhZ-nx9A
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post #38034 of 52133 Old 03-17-2012, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brendelac View Post

I recently picked up a pair of RC-70s and was looking for the matching center which seems to be only available at Vanns. I also noticed that they have the V5.2C for only $20 more than the RCLCR. It should be be a better speaker, but will it match the RC-70s? I was planning on RC-10s for the rear unless someone has a better suggestion? Thanks.

I would consider trying the V5.2 if you want, but that is just my opinion. The RC-LCR is a more safe bet for people that haven't been able to compare both side by side, but you can always return that V5.2 if you find you don't like it.

Here are some older manuals from Energy
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/scjuc30ylshsa5n/CaqhZ-nx9A
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post #38035 of 52133 Old 03-17-2012, 01:48 PM
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The RC-70s are readily available at Future Shop if anyone is interested. Don't be fooled by the guys asking $1400 for a pair of them on Kijiji or other sites in Canada, and stating that they can't be bought new anymore. These people are misleading you and have no credibility or business stating these claims. Don't give these parasites your money.

Here are some older manuals from Energy
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/scjuc30ylshsa5n/CaqhZ-nx9A
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post #38036 of 52133 Old 03-17-2012, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtp3 View Post

hahaha I don't hate classical at all, I'm just not experienced to find/pick/choose music that I'd appreciate at the moment. I do hear and have heard songs that I do enjoy listening to, but don't know which composer/symphony they are lol.

Yup - you got it...grand prix GTP
Back in the late 90's and early 00's it was a car that I was very fond of. As a car enthusiast, it was probably the first car that sparked my interest.
Since then I've only driven manual cars and motorcycles and no longer have any interest in automatic cars

It is an introductory for newer listeners from what I experienced. I enjoyed the box set that I brought home, it was worth the investment for me.
Same with me for cars. One of my high school buddies was the main character in the commercials when this Grand Prix body style was first introduced. I had a GTP for winter and a GTX for summer. I still have the GTX and will keep it. They are a very solid and great car, but unfortunately, they only came in automatic.

Here are some older manuals from Energy
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/scjuc30ylshsa5n/CaqhZ-nx9A
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post #38037 of 52133 Old 03-17-2012, 02:27 PM
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Hello all,

I'll be finishing my basement later this year and, in anticipation of creating the least A/V compromised area of the house, I've already been purchasing speakers, and am trying to figure out my best bet for reproducing low frequencies.

I had previously decided upon using an HSU VTF2 Mk4, but am wondering if a pair of VSW10's might be better for me (if I can get them again at the steals that Vann's has been parting with them for - I picked up one for upstairs for $325, still not hooked up though, sigh).

The room will be roughly 12x22x7 with some small extra areas, totaling about 2800 cubic ft in all. My priorities are excellent sound musically, with very good HT being somewhat secondary (though not too far behind).

Here's what I have and planned (NIB=new in box):

mains: Energy RC-70 from upstairs
center: Energy RC-LCR (NIB)
side: Energy VS Surround (NIB)
rear: Mirage Omnican OC-55 in-ceiling (NIB)
AVR: Denon 3312ci (planned)

(Oh, also, should this be cross posted into the sub forum?)

Thanks for your input.

Dan
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post #38038 of 52133 Old 03-17-2012, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Mardukous View Post

...you can always return that V5.2 if you find you don't like it.

not really. since vanns doesn't ship to canada, that means having to drive down to a shipping/receiving place just across the border which is over 200 miles for me.
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post #38039 of 52133 Old 03-17-2012, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by brendelac View Post

not really. since vanns doesn't ship to canada, that means having to drive down to a shipping/receiving place just across the border which is over 200 miles for me.

Then, if I was you, I would go for the RC-LCR for safety reasons.
From my experiences though, I would try the V5.2 if the system is mostly for home theatre. A little more emphasis on the highs could help some dialogue in my opinion. Either centre channels should be a home run, but my regular long term life experience is limited to the RC-LCR.

Here are some older manuals from Energy
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/scjuc30ylshsa5n/CaqhZ-nx9A
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post #38040 of 52133 Old 03-17-2012, 08:29 PM
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Hey Hank, I heard the 1.8s finally I'm with you in saying it seems nothing else comes close. I heard Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture......amazing! Especially with how crisp and tight the cannon fire at the end is. You should try it if you haven't already. I think it was in SACD format.

For those looking into getting Energy speakers, or upgrading their current Energy setup, here are some reviews I've written that may help:http://www.tempestaudio.blogspot.com  (haven't updated in a while, but include Energy Take Classic 5.1, RC-10, CF-70, and CC-10)

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